Would any of you actually be upset by "canonized" pairings?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

I mean, if they really wanted to make a sequel to a game where pairings are player determined, they could have data transfered from the first entry determine the parentage of certain characters in the sequel. Might be complicated to do, but still possible.

I actually don't think something like that would that difficult. At least mechanically, we've seen stuff like that plenty of times in games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age and The Witcher (none of which are games I've played, but I'm pretty sure data transfer makes so choices in a previous title carry over to the next). In terms of writing it need only be as difficult as you try to make it. Gen 1 and Gen 2 of Genealogy are essentially that idea just in one game.

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I actually don't think something like that would that difficult. At least mechanically, we've seen stuff like that plenty of times in games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age and The Witcher (none of which are games I've played, but I'm pretty sure data transfer makes so choices in a previous title carry over to the next). In terms of writing it need only be as difficult as you try to make it. Gen 1 and Gen 2 of Genealogy are essentially that idea just in one game.

If they did that, it would be interesting to see how much they let the data transfer influence gameplay and what that would do to the difficulty curve. Even fairly minor starting buffs can make a pretty big difference to gameplay, especially in a series like Fire Emblem where stats have small numbers. Compare a fresh start to Radiant Dawn with one where you give Jill +2 each to strength and speed, for instance. It doesn't trivialise the whole game, but you will notice the difference.

But then look at the difference between fully-optimised Awakening kids and completely non-optimised Awakening kids. If there were a hypothetical Awakening sequel that took the kids from your Awakening save file and the skills they inherited from their parents, then that absolutely could break the game wide open in a way that I don't think would be fun.

There used to be (and possibly still is) an official save file converter from Crusader Kings 2 to Europa Universalis 4. It was a cool idea. You play through the middle ages in CK2 and then take your country and your world and play through the early modern period in EU4. Except that in reality, by the time you finished with CK2 you'd basically already won, you'd get an overpowered start in EU4 and the game would be boring. Transferring too much across after you've already built the perfect team in Awakening would make Awakening 2 equally as boring.

So I think it's fair to say that the devs just wouldn't do that. But then the question is how much can you safely transfer while keeping the sequel fun for everyone? Storywise, yeah, I think you can do as much as you want, with the only danger being the extra work involved keeping the increasing complexities straight. (Which, for what it's worth, was something of a problem with Mass Effect, because it led to people having unrealistic expectations for how things should come together in the final game.) But gameplaywise, I think they're much more limited. Something like the Path of Radiance to Radiant Dawn transfer is probably about as significant as they can go before they start running into problems, but I wonder if that would be enough to appease the people who are very protected to their old versions of the characters. Would people be OK with just being told that Inigo was Chrom's son if he didn't also inherit Rightful King? I dunno. Probably some would and some wouldn't. It's a non-trivial problem and I don't blame IS for wanting to avoid it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, this is precisely what I'm getting at: A byproduct of having to appease the fans. As a result, we might no longer see sequel works, for instance, because it'd mean having to stablish a hard canon to certain things that were left to choices. Three Hopes is a result of this, an AU spin-off that in itself branches off into its own paths, still avoiding having a hard canon. So once again, we can't expect a sequel work to Hopes.

Three Houses and Three Hopes are indeed very hard to make direct sequels to in a way that would feel authentic and enjoyable. Like, suppose IntSys had decided to make a sequel to Three Houses, in the sense that it's set after the events of the game. Either, (a) you'd have to be so vague about what happened in the War of 1181-1186 that there's bascially no point in being a sequel at all, or (b) you'd have to choose to set it after one route, angering the fans of the other routes. I don't think Three Houses was particularly sequel-rich for ideas, especially for something in the same genre (the best hook I've heard for a sequel involved a spy thriller rooting out Agarthan body doubles, as a visual novel), so weighed against the extra problems specific to the game's multiple routes, there was no way it was happening. Instead, the idea we did get was actually a rather rich one, exploring a what-if that many fans (including myself) had toyed with, "what would happen if Byleth hadn't showed up?", and since it's a what-if, we can still see different plot branches focusing on the different major players.

I don't think it's just about appeasing fans, but you can't directly anger a large portion of your fanbase, either. Or, rather, you can, but you'd better have a good reason for it, and/or be fine with your game not reviewing or selling well.

5 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

I mean, if they really wanted to make a sequel to a game where pairings are player determined, they could have data transfered from the first entry determine the parentage of certain characters in the sequel. Might be complicated to do, but still possible.

Yep, in principle it's pretty straightforward, honestly? It depends on the nature of the sequel. You could have characters refer to their non-canon parents vaguely as "my mother" or "my father" by default, but with data imported, you could slip the actual name in there once or twice if it felt appropriate, or even unlock certain new scenes or a few extra lines of dialog.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

If they did that, it would be interesting to see how much they let the data transfer influence gameplay and what that would do to the difficulty curve. Even fairly minor starting buffs can make a pretty big difference to gameplay, especially in a series like Fire Emblem where stats have small numbers. Compare a fresh start to Radiant Dawn with one where you give Jill +2 each to strength and speed, for instance. It doesn't trivialise the whole game, but you will notice the difference.

But then look at the difference between fully-optimised Awakening kids and completely non-optimised Awakening kids. If there were a hypothetical Awakening sequel that took the kids from your Awakening save file and the skills they inherited from their parents, then that absolutely could break the game wide open in a way that I don't think would be fun.

There used to be (and possibly still is) an official save file converter from Crusader Kings 2 to Europa Universalis 4. It was a cool idea. You play through the middle ages in CK2 and then take your country and your world and play through the early modern period in EU4. Except that in reality, by the time you finished with CK2 you'd basically already won, you'd get an overpowered start in EU4 and the game would be boring. Transferring too much across after you've already built the perfect team in Awakening would make Awakening 2 equally as boring.

So I think it's fair to say that the devs just wouldn't do that. But then the question is how much can you safely transfer while keeping the sequel fun for everyone? Storywise, yeah, I think you can do as much as you want, with the only danger being the extra work involved keeping the increasing complexities straight. (Which, for what it's worth, was something of a problem with Mass Effect, because it led to people having unrealistic expectations for how things should come together in the final game.) But gameplaywise, I think they're much more limited. Something like the Path of Radiance to Radiant Dawn transfer is probably about as significant as they can go before they start running into problems, but I wonder if that would be enough to appease the people who are very protected to their old versions of the characters. Would people be OK with just being told that Inigo was Chrom's son if he didn't also inherit Rightful King? I dunno. Probably some would and some wouldn't. It's a non-trivial problem and I don't blame IS for wanting to avoid it.

Well the issue with them getting their skills at the start of the game is that those are, be design, endgame skills. So I don't think they would. What they could do, though, is make it so the skills they get by levelling up are determined by the save data transfer. So a Sumia!Lucina would get Galeforce when reaching Lv 15 Great Lord.

15 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Three Houses and Three Hopes are indeed very hard to make direct sequels to in a way that would feel authentic and enjoyable. Like, suppose IntSys had decided to make a sequel to Three Houses, in the sense that it's set after the events of the game. Either, (a) you'd have to be so vague about what happened in the War of 1181-1186 that there's bascially no point in being a sequel at all, or (b) you'd have to choose to set it after one route, angering the fans of the other routes. I don't think Three Houses was particularly sequel-rich for ideas, especially for something in the same genre (the best hook I've heard for a sequel involved a spy thriller rooting out Agarthan body doubles, as a visual novel), so weighed against the extra problems specific to the game's multiple routes, there was no way it was happening. Instead, the idea we did get was actually a rather rich one, exploring a what-if that many fans (including myself) had toyed with, "what would happen if Byleth hadn't showed up?", and since it's a what-if, we can still see different plot branches focusing on the different major players.

I don't think it's just about appeasing fans, but you can't directly anger a large portion of your fanbase, either. Or, rather, you can, but you'd better have a good reason for it, and/or be fine with your game not reviewing or selling well.

Yep, in principle it's pretty straightforward, honestly? It depends on the nature of the sequel. You could have characters refer to their non-canon parents vaguely as "my mother" or "my father" by default, but with data imported, you could slip the actual name in there once or twice if it felt appropriate, or even unlock certain new scenes or a few extra lines of dialog.

Honestly I think if they did have the stones to just choose a route to make a sequel to, few people would actually be legitimately angry or turned off from buying the game. Like, people would definitely have their preferences for what story they'd like to followup on, but much like canonzing pairings, the perceived ire such a decision would create could be more of a paper tiger than an actual real problem.

[lenticular]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Honestly I think if they did have the stones to just choose a route to make a sequel to, few people would actually be legitimately angry or turned off from buying the game. Like, people would definitely have their preferences for what story they'd like to followup on, but much like canonzing pairings, the perceived ire such a decision would create could be more of a paper tiger than an actual real problem.

That probably depends on how they market it and manage expectations. If they just say "Three Houses sequel!" and then are very cagey about the story, then people would probably react differently than if the very first announcement said "in this sequel to the Crimson Flower route from Three Houses, we follow Bob, the son of Edelgard and Ferdinand...". I think more people would get upset if they have time to imagine something and then feel like their idealised version is "taken away" from them.

[Metal Flash]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I actually don't think something like that would that difficult. At least mechanically, we've seen stuff like that plenty of times in games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age and The Witcher (none of which are games I've played, but I'm pretty sure data transfer makes so choices in a previous title carry over to the next). In terms of writing it need only be as difficult as you try to make it. Gen 1 and Gen 2 of Genealogy are essentially that idea just in one game.

Fair point, I guess it depends on how much they carry over and how they decide to write it.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yep, in principle it's pretty straightforward, honestly? It depends on the nature of the sequel. You could have characters refer to their non-canon parents vaguely as "my mother" or "my father" by default, but with data imported, you could slip the actual name in there once or twice if it felt appropriate, or even unlock certain new scenes or a few extra lines of dialog.

I would dig giving certain pairs extra lines. 

[Use the Falchion]

Honestly yup. I didn't like how Radiant Dawn shut down some of my ships and pairings, and I didn't like how it implemented supports. (The support thing actively ruined my enjoyment of the entire game.) 

 

Having too many canonized pairings hurts my enjoyment of the game as much as having NO paired endings does. (Looking at you Engage.) Shipping is part of the reason I love Fire Emblem, and canonizing pairings takes away a major aspect of shipping because it limits the types of relationships we get to see in-game. 

I'm fine with a single couple, or even two depending on the size of the cast, but any more than that just makes things less interesting. 

 

On 5/14/2023 at 6:25 AM, lenticular said:

But then look at the difference between fully-optimised Awakening kids and completely non-optimised Awakening kids. If there were a hypothetical Awakening sequel that took the kids from your Awakening save file and the skills they inherited from their parents, then that absolutely could break the game wide open in a way that I don't think would be fun.

I think it'd be a lot of fun, if done correctly. (Or not. I'm occasionally a fan for broken beginnings.*) For Awakening specifically (although for other games and scenarios it can be adopted), there are some ways around this. The first is the direct transfer of a character. The second is a stat boost, as you mentioned. A third is to split the difference between the two and have the characters' skills be adapted for the new game. For example, Galeforce works differently in Fates than it does Awakening. So, for example, if a character who knew Galeforce in Awakening moved to Fates, then maybe they'd gain the Fates' version (read: the new game's version) of the skill rather than the old game version. For special weapons and whatnot, that's a case-by-case basis. Do they get to use the wapon because they brought it over, or is the weapon still subject to weapon-rank-lock?

Then again, I'm the type of person who wants to combine Awakening and Fates in a remake because it seems like a fun way to play with the time and dimension travel aspects of both games. 

But even that level of optimization is secondary to the relationships and character bonds created over the first game. My big question would be about how to carry that into the next game, not about optimization. But given this fandom, it's a very good thing to worry about. 

 

*In that I like when characters can use skills and spells early, but they aren't much more effective than other early-game skills. In Three Houses, it's HILARIOUS to teach Lysithea Dark Spikes T at the beginning of the game, or have Hilda learn Bolting ASAP. But neither are much more effective than other early-game spells the characters have. 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Honestly yup. I didn't like how Radiant Dawn shut down some of my ships and pairings, and I didn't like how it implemented supports. (The support thing actively ruined my enjoyment of the entire game.)

What pairings did Radiant Dawn shut down? Path of Radiance didn't have any paired endings to begin with (because they knew they were making Radiant Dawn). If anything Radiant Dawn used it's data transfer and status as a sequel to double down on at least on pairing, albeit a non romantic one; Soren's tower Convo with Ike which can only be seen if they had an A rank in Path of Radiance.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Jotari

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

What pairings did Radiant Dawn shut down? Path of Radiance didn't have any paired endings to begin with (because they knew they were making Radiant Dawn). If anything Radiant Dawn used it's data transfer and status as a sequel to double down on at least on pairing, albeit a non romantic one; Soren's tower Convo with Ike which can only be seen if they had an A rank in Path of Radiance.

Every Ike paired ending that wasn't Soren (or Ranulf) that could have been read as romantic was shut down. Lethe in particular stands out. But maybe that's just me. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Interestingly Radiant Dawn Ike is a case for me of the game doing something I really respect. Ike as queer representation (you can debate what type, exactly) is very cool for a main protgonist in the 00's, especially since there's a tendency in Japanese media for queer men to be effeminate, and Ike is very much a traditionally masculine man. It also makes his full-throated support of Elincia extra effective because he undeniably does it with no expectation of romance in return (which would be less clear if Ike x Elincia was a possibility). Radiant Dawn clarifying this interpretation of Ike is something I really appreciated.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

What pairings did Radiant Dawn shut down?

Astrid was canonically paired with Makalov in Radiant, which shuts down any chemistry she might have had with any other characters in her supports...I guess it also also shuts down any pairing involving Makalov as well, but I doubt most people care about that.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Every Ike paired ending that wasn't Soren (or Ranulf) that could have been read as romantic was shut down. Lethe in particular stands out. But maybe that's just me. 

But there are no paired endings. Wether you get an A support with Lethe or not her and Ike still explicitly go their separate ways at the end of the game.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Actually, I reconsidered and yeah, if their canonized pair-ups suck for eugenics I´d be  a slight tad upset.

[NotYourKindOfPeople]

13 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Interestingly Radiant Dawn Ike is a case for me of the game doing something I really respect. Ike as queer representation (you can debate what type, exactly) is very cool for a main protgonist in the 00's, especially since there's a tendency in Japanese media for queer men to be effeminate, and Ike is very much a traditionally masculine man. It also makes his full-throated support of Elincia extra effective because he undeniably does it with no expectation of romance in return (which would be less clear if Ike x Elincia was a possibility). Radiant Dawn clarifying this interpretation of Ike is something I really appreciated.

Even Engage made me feel that something was going on between Ike & Soren.

[Jotari]

20 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Astrid was canonically paired with Makalov in Radiant, which shuts down any chemistry she might have had with any other characters in her supports...I guess it also also shuts down any pairing involving Makalov as well, but I doubt most people care about that.

Does Astrid have any overt chemistry with any other characters?

[Heir of Dragons and Beasts]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Does Astrid have any overt chemistry with any other characters?

Gatrie is one.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, DivineDragon_Goddess said:

Gatrie is one.

I don't think I've ever viewed their supports but they are recruited together which is enough for shippers. And Gatrie does attempt to get chemistry with every woman he meets. That possible relationship being determined by data transfers would actually be pretty cool if it means Astrid would join the Greil Mercs in Part 3. I'm a bit of a stan for Astrid Radiant Dawn gameplaywise and I think people would view her a lot more favourably of she had those extra chapters.

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Does Astrid have any overt chemistry with any other characters?

The Sothe and Astrid one is rather touching, and if Sothe were a little older, like say in a sequel that aged him up, they would have made a very cute couple.

[Sunwoo]

If Astrid's best romance options were Gatrie and Makalov, she was doomed to begin with. Lekain, Gatrie, and Makalov are all shit husbandos.

I guess that's the one bad thing about making canon ships, when you have that one character who's stuck with someone fucking horrible and they deserve better but you can't do anything about it.

[Ether]

It's fine, we kill off Makalov and bring Astrid to the tower to kill Lekain. Gatrie has already moved on to tree so we can save her. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The Sothe and Astrid one is rather touching, and if Sothe were a little older, like say in a sequel that aged him up, they would have made a very cute couple.

Nah, Sothe's way too much into that incest fetish.

35 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

If Astrid's best romance options were Gatrie and Makalov, she was doomed to begin with. Lekain, Gatrie, and Makalov are all shit husbandos.

I guess that's the one bad thing about making canon ships, when you have that one character who's stuck with someone fucking horrible and they deserve better but you can't do anything about it.

I've just read Astrid's supports and I wonder if her fiance was conceived to be Lekain. She says her fiance is thirty years older than her which, assuming Astrid is in her early 20s would only put Lekain in his 50s, which...does look somewhat fitting, but he was also responsible for the Serenes massacred and that was 20 years ago. He would have been a bit on the young side to have so much power at that point. Though the position is probably hereditary, so I guess he could have inherited the position of chief Senator. If it is hereditary then that means one of the generic Senators you can rob in the bridge crossing would be Oliver's son (or nephew).

Edited May 17, 2023 by Jotari

[Sunwoo]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I've just read Astrid's supports and I wonder if her fiance was conceived to be Lekain. She says her fiance is thirty years older than her which, assuming Astrid is in her early 20s would only put Lekain in his 50s, which...does look somewhat fitting, but he was also responsible for the Serenes massacred and that was 20 years ago. He would have been a bit on the young side to have so much power at that point. Though the position is probably hereditary, so I guess he could have inherited the position of chief Senator. If it is hereditary then that means one of the generic Senators you can rob in the bridge crossing would be Oliver's son (or nephew).

Astrid herself confirms that Lekain was her fiancé if you bring her into the Tower in RD and make her fight him.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Astrid herself confirms that Lekain was her fiancé if you bring her into the Tower in RD and make her fight him.

I meant in Path of Radiance.

[genesis]

I would dislike a lot and its unnecesary. If a sequel is needed then give the player options by answering It in quotes like a character answering who is their mother or rather and maybe causing branching routes. 

 

One of the best good things of Fire Emblem other than the strategy is the freedom they give to choose the characters Fates, só why take that out of the player? 

 

That said I wouldn't get mas If my favourite pairings were canonized (which are often not the most popular or pushed ship of the game even when It has a big following), but in aware that It would upset a lot of people who are invested in other ships,  so its not fair to anyone.