Does Crimson Flower... make sense compared to the rest of Three Houses? SPOILERS, obviously.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:16 PM, Moltz23 said:

Also it goes without saying, but 3H's stories run on storytelling bias. So the church being ultimately portrayed as a positive thing in the routes where it's one of the player's biggest allies, is par for the course really.

To be clear, that's true of Crimson Flower as well, yes? To treat Edelgard's "knowledge" as wholly correct, would be the same as taking the Church's history at face-value.

On 10/1/2023 at 7:16 PM, Moltz23 said:

Why did Seiros (Lady Rhea) appropriate Nemesis and the Ten Elites as heroes in her history?

Kusakihara: Because from humanity’s perspective, Nemesis and the Ten Elites were thought of as heroes. She can’t create a history that completely ignores the feelings of humans upon ruling over humanity. So while preserving them as heroes, she was able to rewrite other parts of history to her advantage. It goes without saying, however the reason for Seiros tampering with history was not so she could rule over humanity—it was to minimize war and preserve peace across the land. And as it says in the Shadow Library, she even restricted the growth of civilization when it began progressing too quickly for her. There’s an answer as to why… but that’s a secret for now. (Laughs)

Thanks for this insight! This was basically my interpretation for why the "official Church history" didn't paint Rhea in a wholly bad light.

Having said that, I don't think we can take it for granted that they had the majority of humanity on their side. The mere fact that they gained followers and rebelled, doesn't tell us anything directly about the Nabateans' rule. Maybe they were benevolent, or perhaps they committed atrocities. Or, they may have tried to be "hands-off", letting humans deal with their own stuff.

On 10/1/2023 at 7:16 PM, Moltz23 said:

Nemesis' rule represented humanity being ruled by humans. Meanwhile, Seiros' efforts to tarnish Nemesis and co.'s reputation, while also salvaging her living kin, were the opposite (more so given the role her Church assumed in the Empire).

This seems like its own kind of propaganda.

For starters, Fódlan wasn't populated exclusively by humans. It included Humans, Nabateans, and Agarthans, at the very least. A totally representative government would include all groups, although that never happens.

Second, Wilhelm was, in fact, a human. All of Fódlan's political rulers, since that war, have been human. The only exception is Rhea/Seiros, who blurs the lines between "religious" and "political" authority. Sure, many of them have "dragon's blood", but if that's to their discredit, then Nemesis and the Ten Elites must share such a penalty.

Third, whether the Church "tarnishes" Nemesis' legacy is inherently subjective. They refer to him and his allies as Heroes, so they're not doing a very good job of it. If they wanted to "tarnish" him, they could've told the truth - that Nemesis killed a little girl in her sleep, and used her spine as a weapon to slaughter her family members. They don't portray Nemesis as "positively" as they could, but they certainly could've been far more "negative" in what they said about him.

[Etrurian emperor]

Somewhat dissapointingly Nemesis seems to be nothing beyond just your average Fire Emblem bandit with a powerful sword. So him being a champion of humanity against the evil lizard people is probably just wishful thinking on Edelgard's part.

Whatever flaws cropped up in Rhea's system over time, it seems pretty objective that Rhea and co were the good side in the war of Heroes. How can they not be when the opposition consist of a bandit king, and the evil mole people who are 100% evil all the time without any nuance to them. The problem with Rhea's system is that it just stopped working and ended up stifling Fodlan, not that she did humanity a disservice by kicking Nemesis and his Agharten puppet masters to the curb. 

[DefyingFates]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Somewhat dissapointingly Nemesis seems to be nothing beyond just your average Fire Emblem bandit with a powerful sword. So him being a champion of humanity against the evil lizard people is probably just wishful thinking on Edelgard's part.

Whatever flaws cropped up in Rhea's system over time, it seems pretty objective that Rhea and co were the good side in the war of Heroes. How can they not be when the opposition consist of a bandit king, and the evil mole people who are 100% evil all the time without any nuance to them. The problem with Rhea's system is that it just stopped working and ended up stifling Fodlan, not that she did humanity a disservice by kicking Nemesis and his Agharten puppet masters to the curb. 

Exactly. I think what makes Rhea so interesting is that she genuinely meant well and was just too grief-stricken to adapt with the times. That makes her a far more complex character than people who are just evil for the sake of it (and again, part of the reason Crimson Flower's version of the backstory feels so bland and full of holes when it tries to say "Nemesis was a good guy actually" without giving us much more information than that).

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Somewhat dissapointingly Nemesis seems to be nothing beyond just your average Fire Emblem bandit with a powerful sword. So him being a champion of humanity against the evil lizard people is probably just wishful thinking on Edelgard's part.

Ah but doesn't that make him the perfect final boss for Fire Emblem. Finally after all these years we get to defeat the true enemy of Fire Emblem. Bandits!

[Etrurian emperor]

14 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Exactly. I think what makes Rhea so interesting is that she genuinely meant well and was just too grief-stricken to adapt with the times. That makes her a far more complex character than people who are just evil for the sake of it (and again, part of the reason Crimson Flower's version of the backstory feels so bland and full of holes when it tries to say "Nemesis was a good guy actually" without giving us much more information than that).

I think Fodlan also stands out by the church itself being about the only Japanese media church that isn't scary and dogmatic, but instead filled with mostly nice people just doing their best to make the world a better place. Any problem the church creates is accidental rather than out of malice.

Its quite the shock when comparing it to most other Japanese games. I guess Elibe's Elimine church is pretty benevolent too but perhaps a bit too bland to really count. 

 

[lenticular]

29 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Exactly. I think what makes Rhea so interesting is that she genuinely meant well and was just too grief-stricken to adapt with the times.

As far as I'm concerned, Rhea in the War of Heroes is broadly comparable to Edelgard in the present day. Deeply traumatised, well-meaning, but messed up.

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Whatever flaws cropped up in Rhea's system over time, it seems pretty objective that Rhea and co were the good side in the war of Heroes. How can they not be when the opposition consist of a bandit king, and the evil mole people who are 100% evil all the time without any nuance to them. The problem with Rhea's system is that it just stopped working and ended up stifling Fodlan, not that she did humanity a disservice by kicking Nemesis and his Agharten puppet masters to the curb. 

Nemesis and the Agarthans were also the people who tried to genocide an entire sapient species. That's pretty high up there on the "are we that baddies?" tier list.

[vikingsfan92]

Personally I felt the part about Nemesis in CF was more of saying that just because one side was bad doesn't make the other side good aligned in a war that has long ended.  Wars usually end with the victor pinning everything bad on their opponents and saying the winning side did what was needed. So I personally take her comments to be more of her subscribing to the notion that she doesn't buy in to the idea that their was a "good" side of the battle against Nemesis and dislikes them both.

[Dark Holy Elf]

18 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Personally I felt the part about Nemesis in CF was more of saying that just because one side was bad doesn't make the other side good aligned in a war that has long ended.  Wars usually end with the victor pinning everything bad on their opponents and saying the winning side did what was needed. So I personally take her comments to be more of her subscribing to the notion that she doesn't buy in to the idea that their was a "good" side of the battle against Nemesis and dislikes them both.

Yep, this. Wilhelm characterizes it as something based on far more mundane concerns than the tale of good vs. evil that propaganda would have it be. And he was an enemy of Nemesis. For this reason, I think his account, while still far from perfect (people do occasionally have self-serving reasons to speak well of their enemies), is probably more trustworthy than anything else we get in the game.

2 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Exactly. I think what makes Rhea so interesting is that she genuinely meant well and was just too grief-stricken to adapt with the times. That makes her a far more complex character than people who are just evil for the sake of it (and again, part of the reason Crimson Flower's version of the backstory feels so bland and full of holes when it tries to say "Nemesis was a good guy actually" without giving us much more information than that).

Crimson Flower doesn't say "Nemesis was a good guy" and it certainly doesn't paint Rhea as "evil for the sake of it". The game obviously wants you to find every non-Agarthan significant player in the game to be morally grey at worst, and that certainly includes Rhea. Even using purely CF she's a tragic figure who has the respect of characters who are painted sympathetically like Flayn, Seteth (mostly), and Dimitri. And her most heinous act is one borne out of desperation and feelings of betrayal rather than malice.

[DefyingFates]

18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Crimson Flower doesn't say "Nemesis was a good guy" and it certainly doesn't paint Rhea as "evil for the sake of it".

But Edelgard flat out says Nemesis was a freedom fighter and Rhea only wanted to control Fodlan. The only concession she makes is saying that the Agarthans are also evil. I think the other three routes do a much better job of portraying Rhea as a morally grey figure despite her being one of the "good guys" in them.

18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Even using purely CF she's a tragic figure who has the respect of characters who are painted sympathetically like Flayn, Seteth (mostly), and Dimitri. And her most heinous act is one borne out of desperation and feelings of betrayal rather than malice.

To an extent, and while I do kinda get the reasoning in CF of Rhea being desperate and Edelgard not, their moralities there definitely feel off when Edelgard is the one trying to a score a full house's worth of war crimes in the other routes. Look at the use off Demonic Beasts for example; Rhea in CF only deploys those robots and when Dedue and the other people of Faerghus use Crest Stones it's treated as a tragic act of desperation, but no one on Edelgard's side seems to feel any remorse over deploying wave after wave of them outside of CF.

[vikingsfan92]

40 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

But Edelgard flat out says Nemesis was a freedom fighter and Rhea only wanted to control Fodlan. The only concession she makes is saying that the Agarthans are also evil. I think the other three routes do a much better job of portraying Rhea as a morally grey figure despite her being one of the "good guys" in them.

Fighting for freedoms doesn't necessarily make you a good guy.  Sometimes people fight for the right to be a jerk and terrible person. Still fighting for rights and freedoms just not freedoms that are seen as positive for everyone else. 

In One Piece for instance you could argue the clearly awful human beings known as the Celestial dragons are fighting for their "freedom" to continue oppressing everyone and be untouchable according to the laws.  Freedom can let people be not nice to each other so it is a very much case by case basis if it's a good freedom to fight for or if someone is just trying to allow themselves to do awful things to others.

53 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

To an extent, and while I do kinda get the reasoning in CF of Rhea being desperate and Edelgard not, their moralities there definitely feel off when Edelgard is the one trying to a score a full house's worth of war crimes in the other routes. Look at the use off Demonic Beasts for example; Rhea in CF only deploys those robots and when Dedue and the other people of Faerghus use Crest Stones it's treated as a tragic act of desperation, but no one on Edelgard's side seems to feel any remorse over deploying wave after wave of them outside of CF.

You have to remember alot of this is due to having numerous routes to begin with and the ability to have nearly the entire cast be recruitable on each. It's kind of hard for them to do anything to make the route you are on feel sympathetic towards another without making the route you are on worse.  I can't imagine people would be a fan of Claudes route for instance if it was saying " look at how cool this Dimtri guy is don't you want to play his route more than the Claude route" or vice versa.  Even way more minor cases of this can cause big harm to the routes end feeling. So you end up with them going as hard as they can to support the route you are on.

Additionally its hard to make a compelling storyline for a charcter that could be 1) dead (under player control classic mode) 2)recruited in your house and not able to do their against you scene. 

Keep in mind that past fire emblem games have pretty much incentivised recruiting everyone and I don't think three houses really differs in this regards despite people trying to argue otherwise.  So it would be alot of effort for content that very few see imo in a game that had numerous delays to its launch already.

Also as a final note I just want to add as a general note one of the biggest problems with three houses writing in general is we see very little development for anyone not playable. We know very little about the Agarthans and how they opperate even after three hopes gave us more. All the named ones are criticized for lack of information on them and generic motivations. As much as I like Ladislava, Randolph, Judith, Nader and Flesche they are no where near devolved as the main cast so its only natural that if you see them on the enemy side you don't feel anything from them.

Tldr of the last sevreral paragraphs: its hard to do something that goes against your route for both narrative reasons and player behavior reasons so its not likely you will see a huge feel for me scene for the opposing side. Especially when there is a lack of non recruitable underdeveloped charcters it could work for.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

 no one on Edelgard's side seems to feel any remorse over deploying wave after wave of them outside of CF.

Even in Crimson Flower there doesn't seem to be any remorse over using Demonic Beasts. I don't think they're ever mentioned at all. While it would definitely be a good plot point for Byleth to convince Edelgard not to use them, it doesn't seem to ever happen. The lack of Demonic Beasts in Edelgard's control could entirely be down to gameplay story segregation.

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Even in Crimson Flower there doesn't seem to be any remorse over using Demonic Beasts. I don't think they're ever mentioned at all. While it would definitely be a good plot point for Byleth to convince Edelgard not to use them, it doesn't seem to ever happen. The lack of Demonic Beasts in Edelgard's control could entirely be down to gameplay story segregation.

Also tbf if you recruit everyone Edelgard's post war squad is pretty much Hubert, Ladislava, Randolph, Death Knight and Flesche on other routes with a ton of nameless mooks.  Death Knight, Flesche and Randolph are occupied plot lines so its really only Ladislava who could do anything with the beasts and again I really really like her but she is not devolped so coming from her it would just come off flat. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

But Edelgard flat out says Nemesis was a freedom fighter and Rhea only wanted to control Fodlan.

Can you cite what lines you are thinking of? Regardless, Rhea did control Fodlan, and see vikingsfan92 for the relevant point about Nemesis. There have been some pretty awful freedom fighters in our world, too!

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I think the other three routes do a much better job of portraying Rhea as a morally grey figure despite her being one of the "good guys" in them.

Strongly disagree there; she's not even on AM at all, and frankly she's woefully under-utilized even on "her" route. Regardless, White Clouds + CF + the little bit at the end of VW/SS is the source of her characterization, and personally I find it quite consistent. Since you obviously disagree, what does she do in CF that you find inconsistent with her characterization elsewhere, and why do you find it inconsistent?

(And I'll remind you that her characterization elsewhere includes her executing people in anger when she feels they are defying her. So for me, I can't help but view everything she does in CF as flowing naturally from what she did in White Clouds + the opening video.)

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

To an extent, and while I do kinda get the reasoning in CF of Rhea being desperate and Edelgard not, their moralities there definitely feel off when Edelgard is the one trying to a score a full house's worth of war crimes in the other routes.

I mean Rhea spends every war phase locked in a cell, which tends to reduce one's ability to commit crimes during said war. Rhea is committing plenty of things I would consider to be crimes before then, though, such as executing Christophe for a crime she knows he did not commit. She's not a paragon of virtue on any route.

I also think you're comically exaggerating Edelgard's war crime count; hers is not the faction which threatens torture, uses false surrenders, or calls for mass execution of captured soldiers, even on non-CF. I'll grant you demonic beasts, though it's pretty unclear exactly what the nature of the ones you face as enemies in non-CF are, i.e. how were they made and who is responsible. It'd be all guesswork on both our parts, and I suspect our guesses will line up with our pre-existing opinions on the characters. That said: neither the player's faction nor the highly sympathetic characters who fight in the Imperial faction (e.g Dorothea, Caspar, etc.) pay them any mind, so I'm not inclined to weight them very heavily for this conversation either.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Also tbf if you recruit everyone Edelgard's post war squad is pretty much Hubert, Ladislava, Randolph, Death Knight and Flesche on other routes with a ton of nameless mooks.  Death Knight, Flesche and Randolph are occupied plot lines so its really only Ladislava who could do anything with the beasts and again I really really like her but she is not devolped so coming from her it would just come off flat. 

I'm not sure what you mean by Ladislava being the only one who could do something with the beasts. I mean, I think beast Ladislava would be fine to throw into Crimson Flower. More beast unit fodder for Heroes, but it seems weird to frame that as the only possiblity. Like, my suggestion was that it be Byleth's influence that causes Edelgard to stop using the demonic beasts, because isn't that the whole point of the Byleth-Edelgard relationship?

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure what you mean by Ladislava being the only one who could do something with the beasts. I mean, I think beast Ladislava would be fine to throw into Crimson Flower. More beast unit fodder for Heroes, but it seems weird to frame that as the only possiblity. Like, my suggestion was that it be Byleth's influence that causes Edelgard to stop using the demonic beasts, because isn't that the whole point of the Byleth-Edelgard relationship?

I was talking about DefyingFates comment that you responded to and was expanding on it. How the only non-recruitable named  charcter who is empire aligned that could feasibly do a plot line like DefyingFates wanted  is Ladislva as Deathknight is an ill fit and Randolph and Flesche have other roles in other routes (like there scene with Dimtri in AM). And there are no other named non-slither imperial charcters other than Ladislava to to do the plot line DefyingFates was suggesting 

Tldr: I was basically agreeing with your previous comment and adding on a note about how their are not a lot of named imperial charcters outside of Edelgard and Hubert. And the ones that do exist don't match defyingfates desired remorse scene. Sorry if it was confusing 

Edited October 5, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

I was talking about DefyingFates comment that you responded to and was expanding on it. How the only non-recruitable named  charcter who is empire aligned that could feasibly do a plot line like DefyingFates wanted  is Ladislva as Deathknight is an ill fit and Randolph and Flesche have other roles in other routes (like there scene with Dimtri in AM). And there are no other named non-slither imperial charcters other than Ladislava to to do the plot line DefyingFates was suggesting 

Tldr: I was basically agreeing with your previous comment and adding on a note about how their are not a lot of named imperial charcters outside of Edelgard and Hubert. And the ones that do exist don't match defyingfates desired remorse scene. Sorry if it was confusing 

Oh well on that specific plot suggestion Ladislava does seem perfectly posed to fill that role. Since she's kind of a whole lot of nothing now.

Though to name another imperial character, there's Metodey, who with any sense should have been alive Crimson Flower since the route split choice obviously should have been before the Holy Tomb chapter and not after it, as the way we have it now has Edelgard literally trying to murder her friends and then her friends turning around and joining her (oh wait, sorry, pretending to try to kill her friends by using a gambit that is a literal bomb and ordering soldiers to kill them, including cliche psychopath Metodey and demonic freaking beasts who are so hard to control they even attack their own allies). Course Metodey couldn't fullfil the suggested tragic role since no one would give a fuck if he died. If anything the fact that you like Ladislava would only make her more effective in the role.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Jotari

[vikingsfan92]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh well on that specific plot suggestion Ladislava does seem perfectly posed to fill that role. Since she's kind of a whole lot of nothing now.

Though to name another imperial character, there's Metodey, who with any sense should have been alive Crimson Flower since the route split choice obviously should have been before the Holy Tomb chapter and not after it, as the way we have it now has Edelgard literally trying to murder her friends and then her friends turning around and joining her (oh wait, sorry, pretending to try to kill her friends by using a gambit that is a literal bomb and ordering soldiers to kill them, including cliche psychopath Metodey and demonic freaking beasts who are so hard to control they even attack their own allies). Course Metodey couldn't fullfil the suggested tragic role since no one would give a fuck if he died. If anything the fact that you like Ladislava would only make her more effective in the role.

Melody is more of a slither dude in imperial army clothing given he never shows up in anything at all CF and SB if we count three hopes he is clearly kicked to the curb but the bigger reason he can't do anything is he straight up dies in the holy tomb battle if fought.

Also while I do like her I feel like alot of things they could do with Ladislava would fall flat due to her not being devolped and given how there are much much bigger problems with the game (how similar VW and SS are, CF off screening twsid, backstory for the Agarthans in general, ect.) I don't think it would be worth it over numerous other more pressing issues. I like her but that doesn't mean it this plotline would land with her being given this role. Also it's one of those plotlines that risks making things much worse if done badly imo so I have doubts if it worth trying at all. 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Jotari]

16 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Melody is more of a slither dude in imperial army clothing given he never shows up in anything at all CF and SB if we count three hopes he is clearly kicked to the curb but the bigger reason he can't do anything is he straight up dies in the holy tomb battle if fought.

I don't quite grasp what you mean here. I don't think you're literally saying he's aligned with the Agarthans, just that he is a one dimensional bad character we're not meant to sympathize with (even though, at least in his initial appearance, he's just doing what Edelgard orders him to and happens to enjoy his job).

16 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Also while I do like her I feel like alot of things they could do with Ladislava would fall flat due to her not being devolped and given how there are much much bigger problems with the game (how similar VW and SS are, CF off screening twsid, backstory for the Agarthans in general, ect.) I don't think it would be worth it over numerous other more pressing issues. I like her but that doesn't mean it this plotline would land with her being given this role. Also it's one of those plotlines that risks making things much worse if done badly imo so I have doubts if it worth trying at all.

"If done badly" is kind of a catch all for any idea. If we're talking hypothetical I think it's pretty much a given that it's "they could have done this...in a competently executed way." Of course, there's also the element of "I don't trust they could have pulled off [idea] well", but that's also a catch all for anything, since if you have a low opinion of the overall execution of the writing then no amount of good ideas will fix anything.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 10/5/2023 at 2:35 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I mean Rhea spends every war phase locked in a cell, which tends to reduce one's ability to commit crimes during said war. Rhea is committing plenty of things I would consider to be crimes before then, though, such as executing Christophe for a crime she knows he did not commit. She's not a paragon of virtue on any route.

That said Rhea doesn't commit any war crimes in Three hopes where she's very much running free. she's also not insane in that route like she is in Crimson Flower.

I think the main game putting Rhea in a cell the whole war was probably one of the worst decision of the game. Her presence is more interesting then her absence. Particularly in Azure Moon where the themes of corruption and insanity within Dimitri fit Rhea very well. She could have either joined him in his insanity and drag Dimitri down further, or try to be a more soothing presence since she recalled her own losses causing her to lash out similarly and regrets that part of her.

On 10/5/2023 at 2:35 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also think you're comically exaggerating Edelgard's war crime count; hers is not the faction which threatens torture, uses false surrenders, or calls for mass execution of captured soldiers, even on non-CF. I'll grant you demonic beasts, though it's pretty unclear exactly what the nature of the ones you face as enemies in non-CF are, i.e. how were they made and who is responsible. It'd be all guesswork on both our parts, and I suspect our guesses will line up with our pre-existing opinions on the characters. That said: neither the player's faction nor the highly sympathetic characters who fight in the Imperial faction (e.g Dorothea, Caspar, etc.) pay them any mind, so I'm not inclined to weight them very heavily for this conversation either.

Indeed. The Empire noticeable lacks the war crimes found within other enemy nations like Daein and Bern. There's one civilian being kinda nervous about the Imperial army squatting in the monastery ruins, but otherwise there's very little to suggest the Empire terrorizes the citizens of Fodlan. Such actions wouldn't really fit with Edelgards goals and ideology either. 

Interestingly its the Kingdom which has the most shaky reputation regarding war crimes. We know for a fact the Kingdom comitted genocide in Duscur, and that while the common citizens might have been traumatized like the Serenes massacre folks, the western nobles behind the conquest pretty much did it just for the fun of it. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[vikingsfan92]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't quite grasp what you mean here. I don't think you're literally saying he's aligned with the Agarthans, just that he is a one dimensional bad character we're not meant to sympathize with (even though, at least in his initial appearance, he's just doing what Edelgard orders him to and happens to enjoy his job).

Given all the supplemental stuff around Metody (his appearance in the ashen wolves dlc and his appearance in Three hopes) he seems more like someone who is forced into his postion and is an outsider than he ever was a imperial soilder. His cindered shadows appearance suggests he is not one to follow orders. His  three hopes apperance never has him imperally aligned at all an has his only show up after Thales go yeeted from the empire and he is causing chaos with Twsid backed anarchy in Ordella territory.  Even in the holy tomb chapter he is more there for his own fun than he is to follow Edelgard's orders. So even if he is not twisd he was put in that spot at their request imo. 

 

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That said Rhea doesn't commit any war crimes in Three hopes where she's very much running free. she's also not insane in that route like she is in Crimson Flower.

Tbf Rhea appears surprisingly little in three hopes despite being the target of a war declaration. She only appears in the opening and in chapters she is directly fought in. then is somehow is basically non-existant. It's actually kind of odd how little she is in three hopes especially golden wilfire. 

 

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

"If done badly" is kind of a catch all for any idea. If we're talking hypothetical I think it's pretty much a given that it's "they could have done this...in a competently executed way." Of course, there's also the element of "I don't trust they could have pulled off [idea] well", but that's also a catch all for anything, since if you have a low opinion of the overall execution of the writing then no amount of good ideas will fix anything.

It would require a lot of typing to explain but the short version of it is I think that sometimes catch all apply more to situations than others and this happens to be one of those minority cases imo. 

Plus I still belive me liking a character doesn't mean they would be a good fit for a given plotline. If we absolutely had to do it I feel it probably would work better with a new charcter entierly. It's not exactly a secret that three houses needed more time in the oven.

Edited October 6, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah Metodey is a mercenary, not an Imperial soldier; as mentioned some of his appearances have him actively fighting the Empire (e.g. Scarlet Blaze Chapter 12).

It's interesting to wonder what he's doing there in Chapter 11. Is Edelgard so hard-up for mercenaries that she chose one with such a bad reputation? We can't rule it out, but I think on balance it's more likely that he's Thales's goon. This was true even before Hopes showed him working for the Slitherers specifically.

10 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That said Rhea doesn't commit any war crimes in Three hopes where she's very much running free. she's also not insane in that route like she is in Crimson Flower.

I think the main game putting Rhea in a cell the whole war was probably one of the worst decision of the game. Her presence is more interesting then her absence. Particularly in Azure Moon where the themes of corruption and insanity within Dimitri fit Rhea very well. She could have either joined him in his insanity and drag Dimitri down further, or try to be a more soothing presence since she recalled her own losses causing her to lash out similarly and regrets that part of her.

The first part is very true. And honestly her war crime count is pretty low in CF too, outside the one big one.

I'm not sure I'd consider her insane in either route, as much as... filled with (self-)righteous fury. I do feel she behaves pretty similarly when opposed: I could quote lines like "Edelgard von Hresvelg will suffer a death beyond her greatest imagining" and leave all but most dedicated fans guessing whether it's from Houses or Hopes.

Completely agree with your second paragraph and the rest of your post.

[Jotari]

Metodey is clearly connected to the empire. That is literally the entire point of his character in his Inital appearance. To show that Edelgard is directly working with the main forces of Adrestia's military. Why else would he exist? It wasn't for his magnetic personality and it wasn't because the chapter needed a boss as they already had one in Edelgard. If he were a mercenary he wouldn't declare that the Holy Tomb is under the control of the Adrestian Military, his units would be labeled Mercenaries and not Imperial Soldiers and he wouldn't say he was just following orders in his death quote, he'd say he's was just being paid. Literally everything in his initial appearance points not only to him being a legitimate imperial commander, but that being the entire reason he was created.

Now, after his initial appearance his character evolved as they decided to keep using him in different roles as a random boss man. But he still clearly has his imperial ties. This is his battle quote in Cindered Shadows.

• Metodey: Just a few more moons, then all will know that I am the Empire's-- Hm-hm-hm... Forget I said anything. Then again, if you die, it won't matter either way!

I highly doubt he was going to finish that sentence with "I am the Empire's... mercenary." That wouldn't make sense as empires hire mercenaries, but they don't own mercenaries (otherwise they'd just be called soldiers) and it wouldn't be a revelation of any sort. He was clearly about to say Empire's Commander or at best the Empire's Secret Black OPs agent. That they put that line in his battle quote, in a bizarre way where he's not even really talking to his opponent is clearly done to show that, yes, this is the same character you fight in the main game and he's connected to the empire. He's clearly still connected to the empire but has to lay low for a while as preparations are made in secret for the coming war, so he's trying to make some cash on the side.

As for Three Hopes, hasn't he been expressly kicked out of the empire by then? In either way it's clear he's not a mercenary and has become a bandit. Pallardo is in those chapters too and it'd be really tinfoil hatting to say he's an Agarthan agent and not just an oppertunist.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Jotari

[vikingsfan92]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Metodey is clearly connected to the empire. That is literally the entire point of his character in his Inital appearance. To show that Edelgard is directly working with the main forces of Adrestia's military. Why else would he exist? It wasn't for his magnetic personality and it wasn't because the chapter needed a boss as they already had one in Edelgard. If he were a mercenary he wouldn't declare that the Holy Tomb is under the control of the Adrestian Military, his units would be labeled Mercenaries and not Imperial Soldiers and he wouldn't say he was just following orders in his death quote, he'd say he's was just being paid. Literally everything in his initial appearance points not only to him being a legitimate imperial commander, but that being the entire reason he was created.

Now, after his initial appearance his character evolved as they decided to keep using him in different roles as a random boss man. But he still clearly has his imperial ties. This is his battle quote in Cindered Shadows.

• Metodey: Just a few more moons, then all will know that I am the Empire's-- Hm-hm-hm... Forget I said anything. Then again, if you die, it won't matter either way!

I highly doubt he was going to finish that sentence with "I am the Empire's... mercenary." That wouldn't make sense as empires hire mercenaries, but they don't own mercenaries (otherwise they'd just be called soldiers) and it wouldn't be a revelation of any sort. He was clearly about to say Empire's Commander or at best the Empire's Secret Black OPs agent. That they put that line in his battle quote, in a bizarre way where he's not even really talking to his opponent is clearly done to show that, yes, this is the same character you fight in the main game and he's connected to the empire. He's clearly still connected to the empire but has to lay low for a while as preparations are made in secret for the coming war, so he's trying to make some cash on the side.

As for Three Hopes, hasn't he been expressly kicked out of the empire by then? In either way it's clear he's not a mercenary and has become a bandit. Pallardo is in those chapters too and it'd be really tinfoil hatting to say he's an Agarthan agent and not just an oppertunist.

Looking at the quote I don't see anything that suggests he is actually is someone of note just that he wants to move up the ranks and thinks his actions will land him a big shot position which he clearly finds out he is wrong about in the same battle. Nor anything that excludes him being connected to being a twsid endorsed recruit thinking he will have a fast track. Keep in mind the dude clearly has a high opinion of himself so its not surprising he thinks he will be in a power position soon.

Considering Hubert and Edelgard's handling of Count Varley in Scarlet Blaze and Shez to a lesser extent they have shown that they are more than willing to let people think they are more in charge or in their good side than they actually are.  This is much more of a Hubert method for sure but it makes a ton of logical sense too.  They actually didn't care about Count Varley's survival more than the annoyance finding a replacement would bring.  Considering this is continuing the main trait of Hubert in particular showed in three houses to never trust anyone ever outside of Lady Edelgard I think this is highly likely to be a more clear representation of what Houses Metody was to them.

Also I think its a bit of an exaggeration to expect Edlegard sent anyone of note of her own forces into the tomb. The Agarthains were more intrested in the crest stones than a random imperial solider would be I think its logical to assume that Thales would want the group in the holy tomb to be full his men.  It would also be logical for Edelgard to accept this if she doesn't actually expect them to live its not exactly a huge problem for her if a group she hates dies fighting another group she is declaring war on. Her main plan was always the giant invasion that we play through in the following chapter anyways. I think she always intended the tomb battle to be merely the declaration of war and minor distraction while the big main army got closer. Also narratively speaking  I think you are also forgetting that there is a very good case its to actually show that she is forced to work with people she doesn't want to because of how desperate she feels the situation or alternatively that the empire is filled with people under the Agarthians control or at the very least people with a similar power hungry mindset to the Agarthians.

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

As for Three Hopes, hasn't he been expressly kicked out of the empire by then? In either way it's clear he's not a mercenary and has become a bandit. Pallardo is in those chapters too and it'd be really tinfoil hatting to say he's an Agarthan agent and not just an oppertunist.

Thing is these are not mutually exclusive though you dont have to be part of group to share a same goal in this case chaos.  Being an opportunist is exactly what the Agarthans want so they would do their best to get him a higher position so he can accomplish their goals for them.  Its in Aurndiel and the other agarthian affiliates in the empires best interest to let Metody do some of their work for them. So even if he never is a formal member he is basically an honory one as their interests are aligned almost exactly.

Edited October 7, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Looking at the quote I don't see anything that suggests he is actually is someone of note just that he wants to move up the ranks and thinks his actions will land him a big shot position which he clearly finds out he is wrong about in the same battle. Nor anything that excludes him being connected to being a twsid endorsed recruit thinking he will have a fast track. Keep in mind the dude clearly has a high opinion of himself so its not surprising he thinks he will be in a power position soon.

Considering Hubert and Edelgard's handling of Count Varley in Scarlet Blaze and Shez to a lesser extent they have shown that they are more than willing to let people think they are more in charge or in their good side than they actually are.  This is much more of a Hubert method for sure but it makes a ton of logical sense too.  They actually didn't care about Count Varley's survival more than the annoyance finding a replacement would bring.  Considering this is continuing the main trait of Hubert in particular showed in three houses to never trust anyone ever outside of Lady Edelgard I think this is highly likely to be a more clear representation of what Houses Metody was to them.

Also I think its a bit of an exaggeration to expect Edlegard sent anyone of note of her own forces into the tomb.  She and Hubert planned on teleporting out but I don't think she expected any of the soldiers to live. Her main plan was always the giant invasion that we play through in the following chapter anyways. I think she always intended the tomb battle to be merely the declaration of war and minor distraction while the big main army got closer. Also I think you are also forgetting that there is a very good case its to actually show that she is forced to work with people she doesn't want to because of how desperate she feels the situation or alternatively that the empire is filled with people under the Agarthians control or at the very least people with a similar power hungry mindset to the Agarthians.

Where are you getting this "of note" thing? I didn't say he was of particular note. I didn't even call him a general I said he was likely a commander. I was effectively saying he is a career soldier and not a hired goon or mercenary and that was entirely the point if his character. To show that Edelgard was commanding actual Imperial Forces.

8 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Thing is these are not mutually exclusive though you dont have to be part of group to share a same goal in this case chaos.  Being an opportunist is exactly what the Agarthans want so they would do their best to get him a higher position so he can accomplish their goals for them.  Its in Aurndiel and the other agarthian affiliates in the empires best interest to let Metody do some of their work for them. So even if he never is a formal member he is basically an honory one as their interests are aligned almost exactly.

The Agarthans were ruling the Empire for like ten years before the start of the series. That is true for literally everyone in the empire, even Edelgard. The only unique thing about Metodey in Three Hopes is that he appearantly was expelled from the military at some point and did end up becoming a hired goon who the Agarthans made use of just like Pallardo. But that doesn't mean he knows who the Agarthans are or has ever met them or has any loyalty to him.

[Dark Holy Elf]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Metodey is clearly connected to the empire. That is literally the entire point of his character in his Inital appearance. To show that Edelgard is directly working with the main forces of Adrestia's military. Why else would he exist? It wasn't for his magnetic personality and it wasn't because the chapter needed a boss as they already had one in Edelgard. If he were a mercenary he wouldn't declare that the Holy Tomb is under the control of the Adrestian Military, his units would be labeled Mercenaries and not Imperial Soldiers and he wouldn't say he was just following orders in his death quote, he'd say he's was just being paid. Literally everything in his initial appearance points not only to him being a legitimate imperial commander, but that being the entire reason he was created.

Now, after his initial appearance his character evolved as they decided to keep using him in different roles as a random boss man. But he still clearly has his imperial ties. This is his battle quote in Cindered Shadows.

• Metodey: Just a few more moons, then all will know that I am the Empire's-- Hm-hm-hm... Forget I said anything. Then again, if you die, it won't matter either way!

 

That looks like it's from the Fire Emblem wiki. If you'd literally just let your eyes scan down to the line below, you'd see this:

"My employer", not "the military" or "the Empire". He's a mercenary. Or at best some strange special ops agent getting special pay from someone in the Empire, rather than through Military Affairs. Such as, perhaps, the regent.

Also present in Cindered Shadows is this line, which from context is referring to Metodey:

What context do you think this Abyss dweller has seen Metodey in before? If he was wearing the uniform of an Imperial soldier, I'd imagine the speaker would have mentioned that; it's an important detail! By omission, we can assume that Metodey did his town-slaughtering as a mercenary/bandit.

One last thing from Cindered Shadows: it's possible to have Edelgard fight Metodey. If you do, Metodey recognizes her and laughs. A regular Imperial soldier in this situation would either explain himself or surrender/flee rather than fight the heir to the throne, surely. His reaction suggests that he feels zero loyalty to her, either because they're completely disconnected (which they're not) or because he feels he has the protection of someone above her.

As for "he was just following orders"... well, whose orders? Mercenaries follow orders for coin. I don't think that line rules out his employer being Thales even the slightest bit.

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

As for Three Hopes, hasn't he been expressly kicked out of the empire by then?

I'll let you dig up the line if so; I don't recall this. Regardless, let's suppose you're right. If he was an Imperial soldier originally, why would he have been kicked out in Hopes, but not in Houses? The key difference is that Arundel and Aegir no longer hold power in the Empire. This leaves me to conclude that the most likely explanation is that he had a tie to one of them. Arundel seems more likely to me, given that he's seen specifically advancing the slitherer agenda in this appearance, and that'd be a strange coincidence.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Dark Holy Elf