Does Crimson Flower... make sense compared to the rest of Three Houses? SPOILERS, obviously.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

That looks like it's from the Fire Emblem wiki. If you'd literally just let your eyes scan down to the line below, you'd see this:

"My employer", not "the military" or "the Empire". He's a mercenary. Or at best some strange special ops agent getting special pay from someone in the Empire, rather than through Military Affairs. Such as, perhaps, the regent.

Also present in Cindered Shadows is this line, which from context is referring to Metodey:

What context do you think this Abyss dweller has seen Metodey in before? If he was wearing the uniform of an Imperial soldier, I'd imagine the speaker would have mentioned that; it's an important detail! By omission, we can assume that Metodey did his town-slaughtering as a mercenary/bandit.

You're selectively reading my comment there. Let me highlight for emphasis.

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Metodey is clearly connected to the empire. That is literally the entire point of his character in his Inital appearance. To show that Edelgard is directly working with the main forces of Adrestia's military. Why else would he exist? It wasn't for his magnetic personality and it wasn't because the chapter needed a boss as they already had one in Edelgard. If he were a mercenary he wouldn't declare that the Holy Tomb is under the control of the Adrestian Military, his units would be labeled Mercenaries and not Imperial Soldiers and he wouldn't say he was just following orders in his death quote, he'd say he's was just being paid. Literally everything in his initial appearance points not only to him being a legitimate imperial commander, but that being the entire reason he was created.

Now, after his initial appearance his character evolved as they decided to keep using him in different roles as a random boss man. But he still clearly has his imperial ties. This is his battle quote in Cindered Shadows.

• Metodey: Just a few more moons, then all will know that I am the Empire's-- Hm-hm-hm... Forget I said anything. Then again, if you die, it won't matter either way!

I highly doubt he was going to finish that sentence with "I am the Empire's... mercenary." That wouldn't make sense as empires hire mercenaries, but they don't own mercenaries (otherwise they'd just be called soldiers) and it wouldn't be a revelation of any sort. He was clearly about to say Empire's Commander or at best the Empire's Secret Black OPs agent. That they put that line in his battle quote, in a bizarre way where he's not even really talking to his opponent is clearly done to show that, yes, this is the same character you fight in the main game and he's connected to the empire. He's clearly still connected to the empire but has to lay low for a while as preparations are made in secret for the coming war, so he's trying to make some cash on the side.

As for Three Hopes, hasn't he been expressly kicked out of the empire by then? In either way it's clear he's not a mercenary and has become a bandit. Pallardo is in those chapters too and it'd be really tinfoil hatting to say he's an Agarthan agent and not just an oppertunist.

Or do you have any other conceivable explanation for his "all will know I am the Emperor's...."

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

One last thing from Cindered Shadows: it's possible to have Edelgard fight Metodey. If you do, Metodey recognizes her and laughs. A regular Imperial soldier in this situation would either explain himself or surrender/flee rather than fight the heir to the throne, surely. His reaction suggests that he feels zero loyalty to her, either because they're completely disconnected (which they're not) or because he feels he has the protection of someone above her.

We've discussed that line before, you and I. The vocal delivery is quite different to how it can be taken read  from a script.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

As for "he was just following orders"... well, whose orders?

In the Holy Tome, Edelgard's. Like, visibly on screen she gives orders and he attempts to carry them out.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'll let you dig up the line if so; I don't recall this. Regardless, let's suppose you're right. If he was an Imperial soldier originally, why would he have been kicked out in Hopes, but not in Houses? The key difference is that Arundel and Aegir no longer hold power in the Empire. This leaves me to conclude that the most likely explanation is that he had a tie to one of them. Arundel seems more likely to me, given that he's seen specifically advancing the slitherer agenda in this appearance, and that'd be a strange coincidence.

Well he must have been kicked out, even if the linen isn't explicitly said. Because he is obviously an Imperial Soldier before and is not now, even fighting the Imperial Army. He wouldn't do that if he had any association with them. Again, Metodey is among the units labelled Imperial Soldiers and he talks about the empire being the one taking control. If he were a mercenary it would be trivially easy for the game to make that clear by just labelling the units in that chapter bandits or mercenaries and having him say "We are taking control" instead of the Imperial Army. And if he was with the Agarthans there then they wouldn't have designed him in an outfit that is obviously reminiscent of the uniform of the Imperial soldiers and generals in palette and styling. He shows up, says the Imperial Army is taking control and the other characters respond with "Why are the Imperial Army here", like, it's as close as you can possibly get to him pointing a finger at himself and saying "I am an official member of the Adrestian Military hierarchy". It is literally the entire point of his character's existence.

Why is Alois a mercenary? The answer is because the whole timeline is different. And it's not at all unreasonable to believe that Edelgard running the empire would lead to better run conditions where people like Metodey would not prosper vs more direct rule via Thales. He is still with the Empire in Azure Gleam when Thales gets in control. And no, that doesn't mean it must be because he and Thales are best buds, Thales would have no explicit reason to reinstate him as an Imperial Soldier if he were kicked. He is just the ruthless personality type is going to excel better with Thales in charge.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Jotari

[vikingsfan92]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Or do you have any other conceivable explanation for his "all will know I am the Emperor's...."

You are putting way too much stock into someone with an ego thinking they will move up ranks. He doesn't have to be ranked at to feel like he will be fast tracked to a power postion because of how "great" (aka his ego filed impression of his own abilities) he is.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Where are you getting this "of note" thing? I didn't say he was of particular note. I didn't even call him a general I said he was likely a commander. I was effectively saying he is a career soldier and not a hired goon or mercenary and that was entirely the point if his character. To show that Edelgard was commanding actual Imperial Forces.

I am basically saying any rank above the lowest of the low. The only thing he is shown to be is above the other fodder in the tomb. That's litterally all we can say about his rank with certainty.

Which again had more reason to be filled with Thales goons in this scenario than empire loyalists given they ransacked crest stones which is a direct twisd intrest and Edelgard is ok with them being sacrificial fodder.  So I think you are way over looking other reasons narrative for him to be in the tomb.

Like it being used as tool to show how much twsid has power over the empire.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

The Agarthans were ruling the Empire for like ten years before the start of the series. That is true for literally everyone in the empire, even Edelgard. The only unique thing about Metodey in Three Hopes is that he appearantly was expelled from the military at some point and did end up becoming a hired goon who the Agarthans made use of just like Pallardo. But that doesn't mean he knows who the Agarthans are or has ever met them or has any loyalty to him.

Here is the thing we don't actually have proof either way he was in the imperial military at all in hopes.  It is pure speculation either way. All his dialouge is generic bad guy stuff. He never has a line about anything to do with the empire. Also if he did have ties with the empire you would think he would be shown/saved until with Ludwig Von Aegir in the follow up chapter.  Where Ludwig was making a more direct leadership challenge to Edelgard.

So him being a mercenary for hire and more recent addition before the tomb mission is more than feasible. I will stress again the main plan was always the follow up invasion so the tomb soilders were very expendable.

Edited October 7, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[DefyingFates]

I think the point of having an over-the-top villain like Metodey was just a cheap way to make Edelgard/ the Flame Emperor seem even more evil by comparison, which is why nothing about him makes sense (and another reason Crimson Flower's Edelgard acting like she's always doing the best with what she has feels so odd).

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You are putting way too much stock into someone with an ego thinking they will move up ranks. He doesn't have to be ranked at to feel like he will be fast tracked to a power postion because of how "great" (aka his ego filed impression of his own abilities) he is.

I am basically saying any rank above the lowest of the low. The only thing he is shown to be is above the other fodder in the tomb. That's litterally all we can say about his rank with certainty.

I'm not putting any stock into his rank. That's something you're trying to put emphasis on. All I'm saying, wether he be high or low, is that he is an imperial soldier and that is literally the reason he exists as a narrative tool in the Holy Tomb.

4 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Which again had more reason to be filled with Thales goons in this scenario than empire loyalists given they ransacked crest stones which is a direct twisd intrest and Edelgard is ok with them being sacrificial fodder.  So I think you are way over looking other reasons narrative for him to be in the tomb

That the soldiers in the Holy Tomb were fodder that Edelgard was basically murdering just to declare war is entirely your speculation, and pretty baseless speculation at that. Everything indicates she went there with success in mind and her main goal being to receive crest stones which she could use to funnel the Demonic Beasts research she makes use of in all routes except Black Eagles (where it just becomes an ignored plot point).

4 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Here is the thing we don't actually have proof either way he was in the imperial military at all in hopes.  It is pure speculation either way. All his dialouge is generic bad guy stuff. He never has a line about anything to do with the empire. Also if he did have ties with the empire you would think he would be shown/saved until with Ludwig Von Aegir in the follow up chapter.  Where Ludwig was making a more direct leadership challenge to Edelgard.

Sure, Ludwig's chapter would probably have been more suitable a role for him. But likewise, Alois being aligned with Rhea would have been more suitable for him given his Three Houses depiction. That they didn't take the more obvious choices for characters can be for a multitude of reasons. That being said, yes, we have proof that Metodey was an Imperial Soldier. I have spelled out those proofs very clearly by now. If you want further proof, his Battalion is Empire Raiders with the flavor text that describes them as "high mobile infantry that serve the Empire". They're not Mercenary Raiders or Bandit Raiders, they're Raiders directly working for the Empire. And before someone suggests they're serving as mercenaries, no, mercenaries serving an exclusive employer like that are just soldiers. That's what he is. He does not have this same Battalion when he is fought on Cindered Shadows, he has the battalion simply labelled Thieves. If his actions, and the actions of his followers, in the two appearances we're meant to be seen as basically the same goons for hire doing the same sort of job then he'd have the same Battalion. It would be a simple and clear cut case.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Hmm, got me curious. These are his battle quotes in Japanese:

[メトジェイ]

数節後には、俺様も晴れて帝国……
おっと、これは言っちゃまずかった。▼
まあいい、貴様が死ねば問題ねえ！
ゲハハハハ！▼

 

[メトジェイ]

いいさいいさ、もっと金払いの良いお方が
雇ってくださるんだ！　逃げるが勝ちよ！▼

 

I think the defeat quote does talk about how he's being hired... I think.

Also found that rogue line:

[ごろつき]
アルファルドさんを連れ去った連中を仕切ってた奴、私、知ってるよ。ならず者ばかりを集めた連中の頭領でね、報酬次第で村一つ潰すことすら厭わない。名前は忘れたけど、あいつの下品な笑いは一度聞いたら忘れないだろうね。

I think band of ruffians is mentioned... but that doesn't say anything since Metodey could've joined the army (or become a mercenary, whatever you think he actually is) at some point after.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[vikingsfan92]

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That the soldiers in the Holy Tomb were fodder that Edelgard was basically murdering just to declare war is entirely your speculation, and pretty baseless speculation at that. Everything indicates she went there with success in mind and her main goal being to receive crest stones which she could use to funnel the Demonic Beasts research she makes use of in all routes except Black Eagles (where it just becomes an ignored plot point).

You realize that there is an entire imperial army outside the monestary right? And the much bigger objective was to occupy the entire monestary. It's not exactly speculation to say if she brought more troops to the tomb or even the entire army she does better or out right scares the church out of the monestary and has all the time in the world to do what she wants imside the place.  So the most obvious answer is she limted the troops with her and thus made it more likely that the rank and file their die.  Some of it maybe for Tactical reasons but still its not the type of mission with high survival odds for people who can't teleport.

 

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not putting any stock into his rank. That's something you're trying to put emphasis on. All I'm saying, wether he be high or low, is that he is an imperial soldier and that is literally the reason he exists as a narrative tool in the Holy Tomb.

You realize that putting on a uniform doesn't make you part of faction yes? What I am getting at here is there are people who are given the uniform but serve their interests (Agarthans) and promote people who have similar thinking while themselves putting on performances of being imperial soilders despite having vastly different agendas and command structures (aka they are willing to ignore Edelgards orders in favor of Thales unless they are directly forced). You don't have to be an Agarthan to want to follow their orders if they have been directly and personally supporting you over their boss who you have only started to know and don't mesh as well with personality wise.

 

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

have spelled out those proofs very clearly by now. If you want further proof, his Battalion is Empire Raiders with the flavor text that describes them as "high mobile infantry that serve the Empire". They're not Mercenary Raiders or Bandit Raiders, they're Raiders directly working for the Empire. And before someone suggests they're serving as mercenaries, no, mercenaries serving an exclusive employer like that are just soldiers.

You realize joint missions are a thing irl right? Just because an American is in charge of an operation doesn't mean that the British soilders taking part in the operation are American armed forces for instance. So not really changing anything on the proof he is imperial to begin with and not just a recent acquisition on Aurindels cronies recommendation.

Additionally they aren't going to bother programing in an entierly new battalion on for one throwaway fight so of course it has to come from existing ones. Keep in mind post launch and launch are separate beasts and it is well documented the game needed some more time to fix a lot the big complaints people have.

Edited October 7, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You realize that there is an entire imperial army outside the monestary right? And the much bigger objective was to occupy the entire monestary. It's not exactly speculation to say if she brought more troops to the tomb or even the entire army she does better or out right scares the church out of the monestary and has all the time in the world to do what she wants imside the place.  So the most obvious answer is she limted the troops with her and thus made it more likely that the rank and file their die.  Some of it maybe for Tactical reasons but still its not the type of mission with high survival odds for people who can't teleport.

There wasn't an army outside the Monastery at that time. It took half a month for Edelgard's army used in the following chapter to get there.

21 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You realize that putting on a uniform doesn't make you part of faction yes? What I am getting at here is there are people who are given the uniform but serve their interests (Agarthans) and promote people who have similar thinking while themselves putting on performances of being imperial soilders despite having vastly different agendas and command structures (aka they are willing to ignore Edelgards orders in favor of Thales unless they are directly forced). You don't have to be an Agarthan to want to follow their orders if they have been directly and personally supporting you over their boss who you have only started to know and don't mesh as well with personality wise.

Sure, putting on a uniform doesn't innately make you part of the faction, likewise, receiving a pay cheque doesn't make one inherently a mercenary...but putting on the uniform, referring to yourself as part of the faction, acting under the orders of exclusive orders of the faction and having flavor text referring to you as part of the faction does pretty much seal the deal as being part of a faction.

21 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You realize joint missions are a thing irl right? Just because an American is in charge of an operation doesn't mean that the British soilders taking part in the operation are American armed forces for instance. So not really changing anything on the proof he is imperial to begin with and not just a recent acquisition on Aurindels cronies recommendation.

Sure, and this is even one since there are Mysterious Mages in that chapter too... but what is the name of the other units in that chapter. Imperial Soldiers. That is literally as clear as it can be. You can't seriously suggest it was a joint mission between Edelgard's imperial soldiers, the mystery mages and literally one mercenary. Or that the game's flavor text is lying to you for no reason at all.

21 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Additionally they aren't going to bother programing in an entierly new battalion on for one throwaway fight so of course it has to come from existing ones. Keep in mind post launch and launch are separate beasts and it is well documented the game needed some more time to fix a lot the big complaints people have.

I'm not sure which appearance you're referring to here, but the answer is they don't need to code any new battalion no matter what the scenario is. Metodey could have had the thieves battalion in the Tomb. Or he could have had the Imperial Raiders in Cindered Shadows. It would have been trivially easy to do that. But instead they had him show up with a bunch of units labelled imperial soldiers with an imperial battalion instead of showing up with a bunch of units labelled mercenaries and a mercenary battalion.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

He's clearly still connected to the empire but has to lay low for a while as preparations are made in secret for the coming war, so he's trying to make some cash on the side.

Which makes him a mercenary, right? At best you're proving he's leading a double life as a soldier and mercenary. By the way, most armies don't allow you to do this, and I'd assume the imperial army is no different. Surely his actions in Cindered Shadows would be grounds for a dishonourable discharge. Yet Metodey is remarkably unafraid of that. Why?

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Or do you have any other conceivable explanation for his "all will know I am the Empire's...."

Sure, he's about to say "all will know I am the Empire's new general" or something like that. Because Thales is gonna appoint him as one.

If he were already a normal imperial soldier, the line wouldn't make sense, honestly. His excitement about it suggests that whatever "Empire's..." position he holds is one that either he does not hold yet, or is not public yet. There is something special planned for him, at least he thinks so.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well he must have been kicked out, even if the linen isn't explicitly said. Because he is obviously an Imperial Soldier before and is not now, even fighting the Imperial Army. He wouldn't do that if he had any association with them. Again, Metodey is among the units labelled Imperial Soldiers and he talks about the empire being the one taking control. If he were a mercenary it would be trivially easy for the game to make that clear by just labelling the units in that chapter bandits or mercenaries and having him say "We are taking control" instead of the Imperial Army.

"He must have been" is pretty weak. It's also possible he was never an imperial soldier until Thales plopped him into the position sometime in the few months between Chapter 3 of Scarlet Blaze and Chapter 11 of White Clouds.

For the second part... what do you expect him to say? "I'm a mercenary hired by Volkhard von Arundel and answer only to him, and my job is to bring the Crest stones to him against the wishes of the Emperor if necessary"? Of course he's going to act the part of an Imperial soldier. If this were his only appearance, I agree that Occam's razor would suggest he is one, but literally every other appearance he has points to him being something else.

If the point of him was to be a normal imperial soldier, why not show him in your camp in Scarlet Blaze, or as a boss during Part 1 of Golden Wildfire, working under Ferdinand? Why have him appear in Cindered Shadows at all? He's clearly not one, no matter how much you wish he were.

7 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I think the point of having an over-the-top villain like Metodey was just a cheap way to make Edelgard/ the Flame Emperor seem even more evil by comparison, which is why nothing about him makes sense (and another reason Crimson Flower's Edelgard acting like she's always doing the best with what she has feels so odd).

But Metodey being over-the-top evil is inconsistent with how Edelgard's other loyal followers are characterized. Consider Randolph and Ladislava (as well as Hubert and any other unrecruited Eagles). The characterization of all these characters (i.e. Ladisalva/Randolph sympathetic, Metodey not) is quite consistent across routes, not just Crimson Flower. I agree that this characterization seems to not make sense... until you realize it's because the point is that he's not one of Edelgard's at all. And both Cindered Shadows and Hopes back this up.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

But likewise, Alois being aligned with Rhea would have been more suitable for him given his Three Houses depiction.

This is a tangent, but hard disagree on this one! Alois worships the ground Jeralt walks on, and is willing to join Jeralt's kid against Rhea based on Houses, just out of loyalty to the man. Alois joining Jeralt's Mercenaries in a timeline where Jeralt both lives and stays away from the Church is incredibly logical to me. If they'd wanted him to be more loyal to Rhea than Jeralt, it would have been trivial to make him like Catherine and not be recruitable on CF.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Which makes him a mercenary, right? At best you're proving he's leading a double life as a soldier and mercenary. 

And at best you're proving he was a mercenary who still became a soldier, so my intial assertion that he's an imperial character is true.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

By the way, most armies don't allow you to do this, and I'd assume the imperial army is no different. Surely his actions in Cindered Shadows would be grounds for a dishonourable discharge. Yet Metodey is remarkably unafraid of that. Why?

Literally the only explanation is that it's because he knows Edelgard doesn't mine. No, like that is literally he only explanation. If Edelgard did care then she wouldn't have taken him to the Holy Tomb with her. His position in Cindered Shadows us a retcon and even if you make him a career bandit instead of a part time one, that just makes Edelgard bringing him to the holy tomb a more egregious plot point than a less one. It actually makes more sense that she's letting his kidnapping ransom work on the side go specifically because she's building her military forces in secret in preparation for the war. Recall, the Agarthans have been indirectly ruling the empire for about a decade already. They would no reason to make unofficial bandit into offical general. His Battalion really says it all. He's an Imperial Raider.  He is meant to jobs just like the Holy Tomb, shadier guerilla style attacks in enemy territory.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sure, he's about to say "all will know I am the Empire's new general" or something like that. Because Thales is gonna appoint him as one.

And why would Thales appointment him an offical general in the military heirarchy? If he's useful to Thales he's useful in his current role. Fast tracking him to the top would cause dissent among the career soldiers working their way up the ranks. Maybe he is about to say he's going to be a new imperial general, because he's going to be promoted from his current position. And, you know, if your suggested line is what he was going to say then you've just confirmed he is an actual military commander when at the holy tomb.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If he were already a normal imperial soldier, the line wouldn't make sense, honestly. His excitement about it suggests that whatever "Empire's..." position he holds is one that either he does not hold yet, or is not public yet. There is something special planned for him, at least he thinks so.

The line was put in to show his connection to the empire that is it's purpose. No matter how to try to twist it it's always going to be poor writing because it involves him inexplicably talking to himself about his secrets in the middle of a battle unprompted and completely disconnected from the context while directly in listening distance of an enemy. Nothing can make sense of that in universe. The only benefital way of looking at that line is in a metatextual sense. We don't know what he was going to say, but we do know that he's connected to the empire. That's the point of it. And really, if Cindered Shadows wanted to confirm him as an Agarthan agent it absolutely would have. One of the sub goals of Cindered Shadows was to provide more info on the shadow dealings of the Agarthans with the abyss library. It would not have been difficult to make a connection to the Agarthans explicit. But they didn't because the character is literally not that deep. He is just there for fan service because they needed a random boss man to work with Aelfric and they thought it would be nicer to reuse one than inventing a new one. This same fan service is why the Death Knight also shows up in Cindered Shadows for absolutely no reason.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

"He must have been" is pretty weak. It's also possible he was never an imperial soldier until Thales plopped him into the position sometime in the few months between Chapter 3 of Scarlet Blaze and Chapter 11 of White Clouds.

So he was an imperial soldiers then. Plus see previous comments about how that would not be useful to Thales and would disrupt the military.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For the second part... what do you expect him to say? "I'm a mercenary hired by Volkhard von Arundel and answer only to him, and my job is to bring the Crest stones to him against the wishes of the Emperor if necessary"? Of course he's going to act the part of an Imperial soldier. If this were his only appearance, I agree that Occam's razor would suggest he is one, but literally every other appearance he has points to him being something else.

Simple. "This tomb is not under the control of us".  Then label him and his units as mercenaries with a mercenary battalion. That would be remarkable simple to do but they did the exact opposite. And again, that was the point, because this was Edelgard's coming out moment as actively commanding Imperial Forces.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If the point of him was to be a normal imperial soldier, why not show him in your camp in Scarlet Blaze, or as a boss during Part 1 of Golden Wildfire, working under Ferdinand? Why have him appear in Cindered Shadows at all? He's clearly not one, no matter how much you wish he were.

I think Pallardo would have been a better choice for Cindered Shadows. But they probably figured they were already using him for the Anna paralogue so deferred to the only other disposable bossman that would be halfway recognizable.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But Metodey being over-the-top evil is inconsistent with how Edelgard's other loyal followers are characterized. Consider Randolph and Ladislava (as well as Hubert and any other unrecruited Eagles). The characterization of all these characters (i.e. Ladisalva/Randolph sympathetic, Metodey not) is quite consistent across routes, not just Crimson Flower. I agree that this characterization seems to not make sense... until you realize it's because the point is that he's not one of Edelgard's at all. And both Cindered Shadows and Hopes back this up.

There are people in the empire that are aligned with Edelgard that are dipshits. Like Bernadetta's father. That's not unique to Metodey.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This is a tangent, but hard disagree on this one! Alois worships the ground Jeralt walks on, and is willing to join Jeralt's kid against Rhea based on Houses, just out of loyalty to the man. Alois joining Jeralt's Mercenaries in a timeline where Jeralt both lives and stays away from the Church is incredibly logical to me. If they'd wanted him to be more loyal to Rhea than Jeralt, it would have been trivial to make him like Catherine and not be recruitable on CF.

And Metodey getting discharged in an Agarthan outsed Empire without having direct connect to the Agarthans is also perfectly logical.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

And at best you're proving he was a mercenary who still became a soldier, so my intial assertion that he's an imperial character is true.

Sure, in the same sense that Arundel is an 'imperial character'. We both know what is actually being debated here, though.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Literally the only explanation is that it's because he knows Edelgard doesn't mine. No, like that is literally he only explanation. If Edelgard did care then she wouldn't have taken him to the Holy Tomb with her.

It can't be the only explanation when I've already provided another one.

Edelgard doesn't have full control of her relationship with Arundel at that point; it's entirely reasonable that Metodey's there on Thales' orders, not Edelgard's own. It'd be naive to think Thales didn't have a major hand in the mission; why is it hard to believe that he'd have one of his own in a commanding position? Of the two, who do you think is more likely to be interested in acquiring Crest stones? I don't believe anything ever links Edelgard or Hubert to them directly; you can't say the same of Thales. (e.g. CF Chapter 17, where Hubert sees a Crest stone being used and his first guess is that it's Thales' work, before concluding it's something simpler.)

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

And why would Thales appointment him an offical general in the military heirarchy? If he's useful to Thales he's useful in his current role. Fast tracking him to the top would cause dissent among the career soldiers working their way up the ranks

So that he could do Thales' dirty work under the mantle of the Imperial Army, of course. You don't see how this benefits Thales? Arundel's a big deal in the Empire, but ultimately the military answers to the Minister of Military Affairs and the Emperor, not him. Having one of his loyalists installed as a commander is good sense.

And yes, you're damn right it'd be unpopular with the military themselves. Nothing in the game contradicts this; in fact the fact that Bergleiz dislikes Arundel would seem to support it.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think Pallardo would have been a better choice for Cindered Shadows.

You think that because you're set on this theory that Metodey is just an ordinary imperial soldier. if your theory were correct, then I agree it would make zero sense to use Metodey there... and yet the writers chose to, despite having the option of Pallardo for the role. By contrast, if my theory is correct, then the writers' decision to use Metodey there makes perfect sense: they're providing more breadcrumbs that he's an Agarthan toady, not an ordinary imperial soldier.

Again, I will restate: if the writers thought of Metodey the way you do - that he's a normal imperial soldier - his role in CS and Hopes would have been totally different.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

And Metodey getting discharged in an Agarthan outsed Empire without having direct connect to the Agarthans is also perfectly logical.

Why is that, if he's not tied to the Agarthans? Surely Edelgard needs soldiers just as badly in Hopes as in Houses.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sure, in the same sense that Arundel is an 'imperial character'. We both know what is actually being debated here, though.

If that's your repsonse, I have to say no, I don't know what is actually being debated here. What do you think is being debated here. Metodey is either a mercenary who became a member of the imperial army, or he is a character who was always part of the imperial army, or he was never part of the imperial army. The third possibility is what was put forward and I think I have entirely debunked it. There can be no shadow of a doubt that Meotdey was an imperial soldier during the raid on the holy tomb and that's the entire point of his presence there. And I don't think you actually disagree with that in your more recent posts. But that's all I was setting out to say. That

On 10/7/2023 at 10:25 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah Metodey is a mercenary, not an Imperial soldier;

is an untrue statement.

Whether he was an unofficial soldier working for the Empire before the holy tomb, whether he was an official soldier working for the Empire before the tomb and whatever his circumstances are in Three Hopes are really distinctions I couldn't care about. One way or the other the comment in Cindered Shadows is indicating a connection. As I've also said many times now, Thales was effectively ruling the empire for a decade before hand, so a distinction doesn't really matter beyond pedantry.

[DefyingFates]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But Metodey being over-the-top evil is inconsistent with how Edelgard's other loyal followers are characterized. Consider Randolph and Ladislava (as well as Hubert and any other unrecruited Eagles). The characterization of all these characters (i.e. Ladisalva/Randolph sympathetic, Metodey not) is quite consistent across routes, not just Crimson Flower.

But keep in mind that we only meet Randolph and the others after choosing to side with Edelgard. In the other routes we only see them as generic generals. With the exception of Fleche trying to avenge her brother in AM, they don't get any character development outside of CF (and even there we only learn enough to know they're well-meaning people). There's still a hard pivot from Edelgard being willing to kill her friends (after a token "I didn't want to do this, but oh well" beforehand) and work with a sociopath in Chapter 11 to doing a full 180 and surrounding herself with good guys in Chapter 12.

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And both Cindered Shadows and Hopes back this up.

I see you're using Hopes as a basis for a bunch of arguments here, but I don't think it's right to use that as justification for events in Three Houses since it was written a few years after Houses came out. Hopes threw in a bunch of extra exposition just to plug holes in Three Houses' world building, but with the exception of Claude's real name none of it was even so much as hinted at in either Three Houses or the interviews about it.

On the other hand, while CS itself is non-canon, I'll grant you that it's harder to tell how much of the lore there was written alongside the main campaigns and how much was done afterwards, Metodey's cameo included. For example, it's possible that he is a part of the Imperial Army and just does mercenary work for a secondary income (the game and DLC came out in 2019 and 2020 after all, what millennial wouldn't relate to someone having to work two jobs?) Heck, just look at real world militaries/ police, there are corrupt people everywhere.

Edited October 8, 2023 by DefyingFates

[vikingsfan92]

5 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I see you're using Hopes as a basis for a bunch of arguments here, but I don't think it's right to use that as justification for events in Three Houses since it was written a few years after Houses came out. Hopes threw in a bunch of extra exposition just to plug holes in Three Houses' world building, but with the exception of Claude's real name none of it was even so much as hinted at in either Three Houses or the interviews about it.

When we have a charcter who we don't have much information about at all in three houses you are going to need to look at other portrayals due to not having a ton of information. Despite us arguing about him he has really short amounts of screen time.

I think you are being a bit to dismissive of hopes here personally.  Its got its issues sure but I feel like it's at its best when it expands on chacters we had little knowledge of in Houses (Holst, all the dad charcters ect.) I don't see situations like the dads being anything more than simply giving additional context to why things happened the way they did just like what is going on with Metodey.

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

Sure, putting on a uniform doesn't innately make you part of the faction, likewise, receiving a pay cheque doesn't make one inherently a mercenary...but putting on the uniform, referring to yourself as part of the faction, acting under the orders of exclusive orders of the faction and having flavor text referring to you as part of the faction does pretty much seal the deal as being part of a faction.

You realize that spies have for centuries put on uniforms of enemy nations to blend in yes? Sometimes for extended periods of time too.  Just because you say you are something doesn't mean your loyalty lies elsewhere. 

Pick any civil war in history and I am sure any soon to defect soilder would have hammed up how loyal they are to their nation to cover up their future plans. There also numerous pirates, bandits and rouges in history who pretend to swear allegiance to someone just to live longer (aka decrease their precived threat level by no longer being bandits technically) and keep on doing their same bandit attitude and actions they just use their postion to cover it up more.  

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

When we have a charcter who we don't have much information about at all in three houses you are going to need to look at other portrayals due to not having a ton of information. Despite us arguing about him he has really short amounts of screen time.

I think you are being a bit to dismissive of hopes here personally.  Its got its issues sure but I feel like it's at its best when it expands on chacters we had little knowledge of in Houses (Holst, all the dad charcters ect.) I don't see situations like the dads being anything more than simply giving additional context to why things happened the way they did just like what is going on with Metodey.

How have I been dismissive of Three Hopes?

6 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You realize that spies have for centuries put on uniforms of enemy nations to blend in yes? Sometimes for extended periods of time too.  Just because you say you are something doesn't mean your loyalty lies elsewhere. 

Pick any civil war in history and I am sure any soon to defect soilder would have hammed up how loyal they are to their nation to cover up their future plans. There also numerous pirates, bandits and rouges in history who pretend to swear allegiance to someone just to live longer (aka decrease their precived threat level by no longer being bandits technically) and keep on doing their same bandit attitude and actions they just use their postion to cover it up more.  

You're just going into pure headcanon there saying he's a spy. Like, sure, we have some actual banditry/mercenary examples to get into, but nothing about him acting like a spy. But let's suppose that's true...he's still part of the militarily then. Even if his loyalty is somewhere else (which it's not, the Agarthans and Edelgard are aligned at this time, unless you're going to start saying he's working for the Alliance or something), that is still working as a soldier. You seem to be trying to twist basically everything, even the entire premise of your own argument to achieve some kind of win.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jotari

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

How have I been dismissive of Three Hopes?

You're just going into pure headcanon there saying he's a spy. Like, sure, we have some actual banditry/mercenary examples to get into, but nothing about him acting like a spy. But let's suppose that's true...he's still part of the militarily then. You seem to be trying to twist basically everything, even the entire premise of your own argument to achieve some kind of win.

First off look at who I am quoting with that section it's not you it's DefyingFates and it's specifically with that section I am replying to that I feel that way. Everywhere else not really feeling that way.

In regards to the second paragraph you are missing the point I am making and getting to caught up in examples.  It's more of you are choosing an argument (battailons) that is severally ignoring other factors imo.   As for the spy stuff it's not that he is one it's more so that the notion that his label battle data wise means something in relation to twsid or discounts him from being a recent Thales recruit and is just starting. Also for refrence Cornelia who is inargubly twisd is presented as a Kingdom aligned portrait in CF. Her label is diffrent in AM (Fareghus Dukedom)  but considering the kingdom label is also shared with tha player army in AM it makes sense to do so from a gameplay prepective. So again imperial portrait =/= not slither aligned or supported by twisd. Twsid whole thing is to printed to be faction members of various groups. Their is a difference in being imperial and slither aligned imperial.

 I would prefer not continue with the kind of reductive nonsense that last line implies and could direct us towarda because I feel we both have better uses of our time.  

Edited October 8, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

First off look at who I am quoting with that section it's not you it's DefyingFates and it's specifically with that section I am replying to that I feel that way. Everywhere else not really feeling that way.

In regards to the second paragraph you are missing the point I am making and getting to caught up in examples.  It's more of you are choosing an argument (battailons) that is severally ignoring other factors imo.   As for the spy stuff it's not that he is one it's more so that the notion that his label battle data wise means something in relation to twsid or discounts him from being a recent Thales recruit and is just starting. Also for refrence Cornelia who is inargubly twisd is presented as a Kingdom aligned portrait in CF. Her label is diffrent in AM (Fareghus Dukedom)  but considering the kingdom label is also shared with tha player army in AM it makes sense to do so from a gameplay prepective. So again imperial portrait =/= not slither aligned or supported by twisd. Twsid whole thing is to printed to be faction members of various groups. Their is a difference in being imperial and slither aligned imperial.

 I would prefer not continue with the kind of reductive nonsense that last line implies and could direct us towarda because I feel we both have better uses of our time.  

But your example with Cornelia just proves my point. Cornelia is part of the kingdom. Sure, she's a spy, but she is part of the kingdom. I don't know if we can say she's part of the military directly or some sort of political branch, though the two tend to be the same in feudalism, but the game isn't lying having her down as a Kingdom faction. If I work at a bank with the express purpose to learn its vulnerabilities and rob it, I'm still a bank worker. It's the clocking in from 9-5 (or less consumer friendly working hours, banks being banks) and doing the work that makes one a bank worker regardless of their actual intentions.

[vikingsfan92]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

But your example with Cornelia just proves my point. Cornelia is part of the kingdom. Sure, she's a spy, but she is part of the kingdom. I don't know if we can say she's part of the military directly or some sort of political branch, though the two tend to be the same in feudalism, but the game isn't lying having her down as a Kingdom faction. If I work at a bank with the express purpose to learn its vulnerabilities and rob it, I'm still a bank worker. It's the clocking in from 9-5 (or less consumer friendly working hours, banks being banks) and doing the work that makes one a bank worker regardless of their actual intentions.

What you are doing is not being an employee you are putting on a scam and your real allegiance is to the group you are robbing it with.  Your badge maybe has more stuff backing it up to make it more legitimate than most scammers but doesn't change the fact you are scamming and acting different than an honest bank employee (i.e taking breaks to scout out heist stuff, not properly giving the work attention while you look for security holes, deliberately making costly are messing up other people's efforts so your heist can work ect).

How you operate trumps any mask that you wear. In Metodey case he acts like an Agarthan supporter more than so he pretty much is one even if he never formally knows of their existence. It just happens the Agarthans as a whole are using the empire as a whole more than other regions so it gives him the scam credentials of an imperial.  Doesn't actually make him one though despite his own thoughts to the contrary.  Scam credentials =/= being of a faction. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, vikingsfan92 said:

What you are doing is not being an employee you are putting on a scam and your real allegiance is to the group you are robbing it with.  Your badge maybe has more stuff backing it up to make it more legitimate than most scammers but doesn't change the fact you are scamming and acting different than an honest bank employee (i.e taking breaks to scout out heist stuff, not properly giving the work attention while you look for security holes, deliberately making costly are messing up other people's efforts so your heist can work ect).

A bank employee who is not honest is still a bank employee. Why are you trying to argue that? It is factually true. Working in a bank is what makes someone a bank employee, not swearing loyalty to the bank owner.

1 hour ago, vikingsfan92 said:

How you operate trumps any mask that you wear. In Metodey case he acts like an Agarthan supporter more than so he pretty much is one even if he never formally knows of their existence. It just happens the Agarthans as a whole are using the empire as a whole more than other regions so it gives him the scam credentials of an imperial.  Doesn't actually make him one though despite his own thoughts to the contrary.  Scam credentials =/= being of a faction. 

Metodey never says, does or acts like an Agarthan supporter ever. He doesn't even seem to know they exist. The closest is when they hire him to cause havok in Three Hopes, but even at the end of that chapter the game points out how he is not the ring leader of the whole thing. In his actions like that he is no different to Kostas. Do you think Kostas, the guy the Agarthans and Edelgard outright organized the killing of when he was no longer useful to them could be described as an Agarthan or an Agarthan supporter? Hell, would you describe Edelgard as an Agarthan or Agarthan supporter just because she works for them? The answer is, no, obviously not.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:15 AM, DefyingFates said:

But keep in mind that we only meet Randolph and the others after choosing to side with Edelgard. In the other routes we only see them as generic generals. With the exception of Fleche trying to avenge her brother in AM, they don't get any character development outside of CF (and even there we only learn enough to know they're well-meaning people).

They may be "generic" generals but their portrayal is IMO quite positive. Randolph acts relatively heroically in his boss battle, ordering his able-bodied troops to carry away the injured while he stays to fight. Ladislava gets fewer lines but Ferdinand thinks reasonably highly of her and certainly there's no hint of dishonourable conduct from her. Randolph gets about an equal number of lines in CF and AM so I don't really buy saying he's more developed in CF. If anything, his AM role feels more "essential' to me, even though it's primarily intended to develop Dimitri.

Metodey is the one who feels clearly different, and if you're trying to use her to make a statement about Edelgard (which you seem to be), you can't just ignore that she has other followers who are portrayed much more positively.

On 10/8/2023 at 3:15 AM, DefyingFates said:

I see you're using Hopes as a basis for a bunch of arguments here, but I don't think it's right to use that as justification for events in Three Houses since it was written a few years after Houses came out. Hopes threw in a bunch of extra exposition just to plug holes in Three Houses' world building

You call it "plug holes in the worldbuilding", I call it the writers fleshing out details that were hinted at but not stated outright, which is what I'd expect a second work in the same universe by the same author(s) to do.

For what it's worth, I don't think anything revealed in Hopes came as a surprise to me. In the case of Metodey, I've already argued using Houses alone that something was off about him and he did not seem to actually be aligned with or working for Edelgard. Hopes simply offers fuel confirming my belief - after all, if he was supposed to be Generic Imperial Solider With A Face, it would have been easy for the writers to make him a Generic Imperial Soldier With A Face in Hopes too, but instead they chose to make him a slitherer agent (or patsy). That's not an accident.

On 10/9/2023 at 2:54 AM, Jotari said:

Metodey never says, does or acts like an Agarthan supporter ever.

You can't be serious. Or if you are you have a hugely different definition of "supporter" than what I assume vikingsfan was using.

He literally leads a bunch of troops in an attack they are orchestrating. Either he's knowingly working for them (he doesn't need to know they're "Agarthans", just Arundel, whom we know is an Agarthan) or they're manipulating him so hard he might as well be. I'm not claiming he supports Arundel for any stronger ideological reason than "Arundel pays him", but that's more than enough for this conversation.

And yes I'd consider Kostas to be working for the Flame Emperor, obviously.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You can't be serious. Or if you are you have a hugely different definition of "supporter" than what I assume vikingsfan was using.

He literally leads a bunch of troops in an attack they are orchestrating. Either he's knowingly working for them (he doesn't need to know they're "Agarthans", just Arundel, whom we know is an Agarthan) or they're manipulating him so hard he might as well be. I'm not claiming he supports Arundel for any stronger ideological reason than "Arundel pays him", but that's more than enough for this conversation.

And yes I'd consider Kostas to be working for the Flame Emperor, obviously.

I meant in the ideological sense. I think that'd be pretty obvious given the very next sentence I refer to his actions in Three Hopes. He's also working for Thales, directly or indirectly, when the Raids the Holy Tomb (and so is Edelgard, and practically the whole empire).

Edited October 12, 2023 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

Personally I'm interested in the question whether Azure Gleam makes sense. Partially because the premise of its later half is completely bizarre from both a lore and a meta perspective. Everything seems to point towards Edelgard wiping those losers out being just a formality, so much they don't even bother to show it in Crimson Flower, and forces vastly weaker then a united Fodlan or the empire in general wiping them out in just one/two stage. And from a meta perspective its strange to replace a concept that everyone thought worked great with a concept very few people think worked great. 

But more importantly because Azure Gleam is the Crimson Flower of Three Hopes. Golden Wildfire and Crimson Blaze are largely parts of the same story just as how Verdant Wind and Azure Moon are mostly the same stories shown from a different perspective. Both Houses routes have events going from an fight in the monastery ruins, a trip to Aleil and a three way battle at Grondor before they invade the empire. Just as how both Hopes route starts out with an Invasion of the alliance before Claude and Edelgard team up to fight the church and Kingdom.

Crimson Flower and Azure gleam are both the odd duck in that they go into a wildly different direction. Crimson Flower noticeable skips Reunion at Dawn and Grondor while having a different collection of stages, or at least a different perspective on those stages. And even without the jarring shift in antagonist Azure Gleam skips out on the Alliance-Emperor Alliance, and the Slitherers setting the border region between those two countries on fire to drag out the war. 

[SnowFire]

On Metodey: I think that the debate here is basically quibbling.  Suppose Metodey was a rank-and-file Imperial soldier.  Well, real armies have assholes in them too, even real armies that are incredibly well-run and ethical.  That's just reflecting reality in the same way that Shinon serves as the obligatory jerk in Ike's band, so it's not *that bad*.  Flip side, suppose Metodey was an Imperial mercenary, or a mercenary specifically hired by Arundel.  I don't see how this makes it that *good* either, or lets Edelgard off the hook.  She's still working with him.  It'd be like explaining that it's okay, your brother was killed by some private contractors working with our army, not the regulars.  Gee thanks, that doesn't change much at all.  Of course this ends up really going back to Edelgard's choice of allies from before.  From what little we know of Metodey, he somehow isn't worse than the actual Slitherers, whose ideology seems to be some sort of mass cleansing of the "beasts".  So...  just another case of being willing to work with evil forces for a greater good, make of it what you will.

On earlier debates: I said when I peeked into the early version of this thread that I'd try to avoid getting sucked into was-Edelgard-right debates, but there was some chatter about actual history before, and I suppose I'll throw in my two cents there.  Zapp's example of Iran is a weird one about America backing theocrats - that did happen sometimes, notably in neighboring Pakistan in the 80s....  but Iran isn't a great example.  The Shah actively pissed the mullahs off, which is the biggest reason why he eventually fell.  He was pro-modernization (by regional standards) and had comparatively forward stances on things like woman's rights compared to what the mullahs would have liked.

That said, I do think the 20th century Middle East is kind of interesting if you're looking for analogues to what Edelgard was up to.  I think Kusikhara summarized CF as "military rule" in one of those interviews, and that certainly has happened in real life.  If you want a successful one, look at Ataturk in Turkey.  He won legitimacy on the battlefield in WWI, then lead a rebellion that kicked the Allies out of Turkey at a time when the old Ottoman government was basically helpless and occupied.  An underdog battle right out of Fire Emblem where he wins the war after the state has already lost the war and unifies the country.  But he was also a secularist, and despised the old Sultanate for being weak, and abolished it.  He reformed the Turkish alphabet & education system which led to an amazing leap in literacy, put competent people in charge, and swept the crimes of the Ottomans under the rug like the genocides and such in his own Rhea-like history rewriting.  Even after he died, secular military types routinely overthrew any government that was too Islamist for taste in the 20th century, and...  it actually worked.  Yes, really.  It was the "good" version of Coups For The Greater Good.  Turkey's standard of living was *way* higher than the rest of the Middle East.  (Of course, Erdogan would eventually get elected, accuse the military of a coup they may not have actually done, then used it as an excuse for a self-coup that purged all the old secularist types...  unfortunately...  but that was a more recent development.  The system Ataturk setup worked well for 80 years.)

Of course, the "bad" example is like...  the entire rest of the Middle East.  I already mentioned Iran above, but make no mistake, the shah of Iran was a murderous dictator even if a forward-thinking one, and was overthrown eventually.  Syria & Iraq had fairly secularist dictators who sought to check the power of religion (yeah, yeah, the Assads are Alawites, but they're like a 10% minority in Syria, so they're interested in checking the majority Sunnis) and did so with lots of massacres and left unpleasant and poor countries.  Egypt had its own problems and Nasserism ended up a bust that left Islamism more popular in the 1980s than it was in the 1950s.  Jordan's managed to stumble through, but this may have been just sheer luck, and they certainly didn't do as well as Turkey.  (You can read more on this at https://www.thenationalnews.com/arts/the-death-of-arab-secularism-1.589937 if you're curious.)

Basically, can it work after the credits roll?  Yes, you can imagine post-CF Fodlan taking some sort of Turkey-style path.  But you can also easily imagine Fodlan ending up like Egypt instead, with the Seiros Sisterhood constantly plotting overthrow of the government and positioning itself as the popular vehicle for any unhappiness, and the government growing corrupt.

[vikingsfan92]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:54 AM, Jotari said:

Metodey never says, does or acts like an Agarthan supporter ever. He doesn't even seem to know they exist. The closest is when they hire him to cause havok in Three Hopes, but even at the end of that chapter the game points out how he is not the ring leader of the whole thing. In his actions like that he is no different to Kostas. Do you think Kostas, the guy the Agarthans and Edelgard outright organized the killing of when he was no longer useful to them could be described as an Agarthan or an Agarthan supporter? Hell, would you describe Edelgard as an Agarthan or Agarthan supporter just because she works for them? The answer is, no, obviously not.

You are misunderstanding the fact that you don't have to ideological support someone to be functionally be a supporter in very specific circumstances which this happens to be IMO.  The difference between Edelgard and Kostas/Metody is that she doesn't actually work towards the chaotic goals of the agarthians and in fact voices her disapproval of those methods (remire) where as Metody and Kostas would have happily done so if they were near Remire at the time. While its true you can argue all you want that we don't know Metody ties to Thales what is known points to him being a direct beneficiary in the slithers and he enjoys similar activities to the agarthians (causing suffering/Chaos).  The agathians wanting people to do stuff like the Remire tragedy increases the chances of someone like Metody who is more than ok with burning down villages and banditry (see Cindered Shadows) gets to move up in life from a normal bandit. Kostas and Metody don't have to be agathians directly to be two of the most benefited characters by the agrthian actions even if they did kind of fuck up their chances majorly because of their own incompetence.

Again it comes down to clashing goals Edelgard's final goals clearly clashed with the agarthians. Metody and Kostas on the other hand fit right in with their goals of profiting off other people. People like Ladislava, Randolph and Fleshche also don't fit in with the agarthian goals so there is clear distinction between them and Metody so I am not a fan of calling them same title.

 

On 10/12/2023 at 5:08 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I'm interested in the question whether Azure Gleam makes sense. Partially because the premise of its later half is completely bizarre from both a lore and a meta perspective. Everything seems to point towards Edelgard wiping those losers out being just a formality, so much they don't even bother to show it in Crimson Flower, and forces vastly weaker then a united Fodlan or the empire in general wiping them out in just one/two stage. And from a meta perspective its strange to replace a concept that everyone thought worked great with a concept very few people think worked great. 

But more importantly because Azure Gleam is the Crimson Flower of Three Hopes. Golden Wildfire and Crimson Blaze are largely parts of the same story just as how Verdant Wind and Azure Moon are mostly the same stories shown from a different perspective. Both Houses routes have events going from an fight in the monastery ruins, a trip to Aleil and a three way battle at Grondor before they invade the empire. Just as how both Hopes route starts out with an Invasion of the alliance before Claude and Edelgard team up to fight the church and Kingdom.

Crimson Flower and Azure gleam are both the odd duck in that they go into a wildly different direction. Crimson Flower noticeable skips Reunion at Dawn and Grondor while having a different collection of stages, or at least a different perspective on those stages. And even without the jarring shift in antagonist Azure Gleam skips out on the Alliance-Emperor Alliance, and the Slitherers setting the border region between those two countries on fire to drag out the war. 

My answer would be I don't personally think so but tbh I think a more detailed answer would have to be in a dedicated thread for that rather than here where its off topic.  But I am also hesitant to to make the reply so because its stuff I really don't care to debate I just know it has stuff I am unwilling to change my mind about so it would be kind of dead to responses which I kind of feel is a bit unfair to other view points.

 

15 hours ago, SnowFire said:

On Metodey: I think that the debate here is basically quibbling.  Suppose Metodey was a rank-and-file Imperial soldier.  Well, real armies have assholes in them too, even real armies that are incredibly well-run and ethical.  That's just reflecting reality in the same way that Shinon serves as the obligatory jerk in Ike's band, so it's not *that bad*.  Flip side, suppose Metodey was an Imperial mercenary, or a mercenary specifically hired by Arundel.  I don't see how this makes it that *good* either, or lets Edelgard off the hook.  She's still working with him.  It'd be like explaining that it's okay, your brother was killed by some private contractors working with our army, not the regulars.  Gee thanks, that doesn't change much at all.  Of course this ends up really going back to Edelgard's choice of allies from before.  From what little we know of Metodey, he somehow isn't worse than the actual Slitherers, whose ideology seems to be some sort of mass cleansing of the "beasts".  So...  just another case of being willing to work with evil forces for a greater good, make of it what you will.

I agree its rather minor but I think the actual debate is slightly more on the lines of representation of the imperial faction as a whole.  I can't call Metody any sort of representation of the Imperial faction because first off I see several indications he is new while also feeling he is a better fit in the argarthian lackey camp personality wise given the information we know about him and what I feel the tomb moment represents.

Edited October 13, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You are misunderstanding the fact that you don't have to ideological support someone to be functionally be a supporter in very specific circumstances which this happens to be IMO.  

That's because that's not what supporter entails. Is everyone working in the US civil service a Biden supporter? We're all those same people trump supporters five years ago? We're they all Obama supports before that? Edelgard is not an Agarthan supported because she doesn't like them, fair enough, but then is Ferdinand an Agarthan supporter? He is indirectly working for the Agarthans just like Metodey and doesn't really know about their existence. Or does Edelgard being above Ferdinand purify Ferdinand's actions as a worker even though he and Metodey are both in the dark, and all three characters are functionally carrying out actions the Agarthans want? The answer is obviously no. Supporting something you are ignorant of the existence of makes no sense. Who one supports is based on their feelings and activism. Metodey supports the best interest of Metodey. He has no interest in the Agarthan's vague plan to purify the world of beasts and may very well turn on them if that plan involved killing him.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

Three Hopes does seem to try hard to distance Metodey from Edelgard. In the main game he's her henchmen but here he's just a generic bandit with seemingly no affiliation with the Empire. That might imply the writers think him more as a Slitherer's man than Edelgard's.

But ultimately I don't think it matters much. Edelgard doesn't seem to have much problems with working with Metodey either way.