Ranking each game by class: Dark Mages / Druids / Sorcerors

[Zapp Branniglenn]

All of us can remember the first time we read a Dark mage explain their craft in a support conversation and we whispered to ourself "Whoa. Lore."

Here's our previously discussed topics. Be sure to vote in the poll for what you want to talk about next, as it will determine the order of remaining classes.

• Myrmidons / Swordmasters
• Mercenaries / Heroes
• Thieves / Assassins
• Fighter / Warrior
• Brigand / Pirate / Berserkers
• Archers / Snipers
• Nomads / Bow Knights
• Armor Knights / Generals
• Cavaliers / Paladins
• Dancers / Refresh Units
• Pegasus / Falcoknights
• Wyverns
• Lords
• Troubadours / Valkyries

Here's my ranking of Dark Mages, based on games I've played / replayed since 2017

Spoiler

1. FE8: What whiplash. Both dark mages are an ordeal to raise, but access to the Summoner class gives them a unique niche on your team. Summoned Phantoms have a laundry list of trivia and mechanics worth mention, so I’ll just link this video. Not sure I’d agree the class is “Busted”, but It can really up your phantom game. The only benefit to choosing Druid instead is access to anima magic that you never need (especially when late game monsters are strong against Anima). As for the units, Knoll aint great. I think his ineffective stats but joining at level 10 was a deliberate choice with his summoner promotion in mind, because generic opponents all have crit chance on him and he has paper thin defense. Ewan can be a Summoner with decent (certainly not great) stats, but that’s a load of work when Knoll exists. He’s a For Fun unit that I wouldn’t take seriously.
2. Three Houses: Since Dark Knight has both tomefaires, I choose to count it for both dark and regular mages. It takes some work to certify as, but it’s well worth it to finally get your combat mages to not lag behind in movement. I have equal experience with the Dark Mage and Dark Bishop classes, believe it or not. My Lorenz adventures gave me a thorough impression of both. You might think Poison Strike is valuable for monster battles due to their large health bars. Unfortunately, if you poison strike an armored section of a monster, it will be halved to 10%. Even if that piece of armor was just broken by your attack. Furthermore, poison strike only checks against a monster's first health bar, not later ones with more health. Also, the Big Boss Monsters have Ancient Dragonskin, which further halves Poison Strike’s damage just like the General skill. Altogether, Poison Strike on a Giant Turtle’s final health bar is just 5% of his HP. 2.5% if you're targeting armor. Ugh. Lifetaker’s better, but still not essential. It only heals for 50% of the damage that killed the target, so if you finish off a 6 HP enemy, you’ll regain 3 HP. Lifetaker may be better on Physically oriented (frontline) units, since mages lack the durability to safely take damage on Maddening. But how many physical units can take a wide detour into B+ Reason? Decent ability in theory, unlikely to work out in practice. Dark Bishop's class skill Fiendish Blow would be great, but the game forcibly prevents you from stacking it with the normal version. It frees up one of your equipped slots, but that's the only benefit As is, the only unit that wants to fight in this class is Hubert, simply because he gets nothing from its direct competitor Warlock.
3. FE7: Canas is firmly okay in my experience. Compared to Erk and Lucius he boasts the highest Def/HP, and a slight Res lead on Lucius for a few maps (assuming no Lyn Mode). The Dread Isle maps are generally good for him. He can sort of hang out on the frontlines of normal difficulty and gain combat exp faster as a result. What holds him back is dark magic. The basic Flux tome is a point too heavy until he promotes. And 80 Base hit isn’t stellar (particularly since GBA era magic is impacted by terrain bonuses). So a lot of my Canas experience is shaky hit rates and staff utility
4. FE6: Sophia is a contender for worst unit in the game. Joining right at the halfway point with lower stats than your Chapter 1 crew. Not impossible to train, but remarkably hard to keep alive, especially if you’re not pre-cognizant of ambush spawns. 70 base hit bites, especially when you consider GBA era magic accuracy is affected by terrain and there's almost no WTA interactions to aid it. Raigh is a better choice of growth unit, and he joins with Nosferatu which is unusually light. I've never used him, but I can't see myself getting too ambitious nostanking with such a frail unit. Him picking up a kill and healing himself in the same action frees up the healer to do something else. And finally there’s Niime who’s purpose is being a unit that can potentially wield Apocalypse for the finale if you raised neither of the dark mages. She’s basically an early promoted Sophia granted an A rank in Staves to assist with warping, physic, etc. Again, hard to keep alive but it can pay off for the dragon finale if you can find enough enemies for her to build Dark rank S off of. Chapter 21x is the sort of slow, easy map that’s perfect for her.
5. FE11: One of the brand new classes you forget they added in this version. There’s no unit in the game that can choose one or the other between dark mage or mage/curate, so for those male units this is their only Tome And Staff using option. Furthermore, dark mages have a separate class cap from regular ones, so that’s another way they’re not in direct competition with those other classes. Turning Cord into a Dark Mage at chapter 4 is pretty compelling because you take a unit with good stats and bad weapon ranks and give him 1-2 range. He won’t turn out great in the long term, but he’s useful in the short term for H5 runs even. More useful than a fighter that can’t lob a hand axe, anyway. I also find Fire to be one of the more forgeable weapons in the game, 3000G for +5 MT. I suppose, beyond dark mage Cord, the best reclass candidate would be Wolf/Sedgar on the lower difficulties where you don’t need their 20-30 defense nearly as much. They won’t kill enemies with their base 2 Mag stat, but that may be exactly what you want as you have them bait mobs of enemies to be mopped up by mid game units like the Whitewings, ballisticians, maybe even Tiki. Could be worth a shot on your next casual playthrough, because part of the problem with those two on lower difficulties is they get too efficient at killing.
6. The Last Promise: Yue’s not great. He’s pretty good on the Wyvern hell that is his join chapter but the amulet’s +10 Avoid isn’t enough to ensure he can survive too many javelins. Best to put that on a unit you like. Pretty generous 55 speed growth, but starting from 10 and using the heaviest magic type isn’t going to permit very many doubles. Rana is pretty thoroughly what you would get from a raised Yue, even down to still having a good speed growth for a dark mage. Solstice (Luna but with 15 less hit) is way too inaccurate to try nailing the late game boss’ absurd avoid rates. Ditto for Eclipse, but both tomes find their niche in Chapter 26 against enemy dark mages using the new Munio tome. They stand as literal walls with the tome’s added +20 Def/Res, but Rana is very handy at taking them out. Then again, when it comes to this role, he faces stiff competition from the Onigiri Sword and Cleave Axes that can be used by a lot more classes.

If I put this into tiers #1-4 are B tier and the rest are C

Edit: Rewrote Three Houses and FE6 according to new details. Since it has been brought up, if I were to ignore Three Houses' Dark Knight class for this discussion, then that game would rank at last place.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

All of us can remember the first time we read a Dark mage explain their craft in a support conversation and we whispered to ourself "Whoa. Lore."

Here's our previously discussed topics. Be sure to vote in the poll for what you want to talk about next, as it will determine the order of remaining classes.

• Myrmidons / Swordmasters
• Mercenaries / Heroes
• Thieves / Assassins
• Fighter / Warrior
• Brigand / Pirate / Berserkers
• Archers / Snipers
• Nomads / Bow Knights
• Armor Knights / Generals
• Cavaliers / Paladins
• Dancers / Refresh Units
• Pegasus / Falcoknights
• Wyverns
• Lords
• Troubadours / Valkyries

Here's my ranking of Dark Mages, based on games I've played / replayed since 2017

  Hide contents

1. FE8: What whiplash. Both dark mages are an ordeal to raise, but access to the Summoner class gives them a unique niche on your team. Summoned Phantoms have a laundry list of trivia and mechanics worth mention, so I’ll just link this video. Not sure I’d agree the class is “Busted”, but It can really up your phantom game. The only benefit to choosing Druid instead is access to anima magic that you never need (especially when late game monsters are strong against Anima). As for the units, Knoll aint great. I think his ineffective stats but joining at level 10 was a deliberate choice with his summoner promotion in mind, because generic opponents all have crit chance on him and he has paper thin defense. Ewan can be a Summoner with decent (certainly not great) stats, but that’s a load of work when Knoll exists. He’s a For Fun unit that I wouldn’t take seriously.
2. Three Houses: Since Dark Knight has both tomefaires, I choose to count it for both dark and regular mages. It takes some work to certify as, but it’s well worth it to finally get your combat mages to not lag behind in movement. I have equal experience with the Dark Mage and Dark Bishop classes, believe it or not. My Lorenz adventures gave me a thorough impression of both Poison Strike and Lifetaker. So I’m here to tell you Poison Strike is not worth it. It’s most impressive feature is activating on a monster’s second health bar if your attack depleted the first. But due to an oversight, the game always checks the value of the first health bar, rather than the current one. So it’s not quite 20%. And the Big Boss Monsters have the ability Ancient Dragonskin, which further half Poison Strike’s damage just like the General skill. Altogether, Poison Strike on a Giant Turtle’s final health bar is just 5% of his HP. Ugh. Lifetaker’s better, but still not essential. The most I can say is that Lorenz was less likely to require a Physic. It only heals for 50% of the damage that killed the target, so if you finish off a 6 HP enemy, you’ll regain 3 HP. Lifetaker may be better on Physically oriented (frontline) units, since mages lack the durability to safely take damage on Maddening. But how many physical units can take a wide detour into B+ Reason? Decent ability in theory, unlikely to work out in practice. Altogether the unit that gets the most out of Dark Bishop is Hubert, since Warlock would not boost his magic damage at all. While the all encompassing Fiendish Blow class skill enhances his Frozen Lance, not just his inaccurate spells. Strong option for Lorenz as well, if you can give up the superior movement that Paladin provides.
3. FE7: Canas is firmly okay in my experience. Compared to Erk and Lucius he boasts the highest Def/HP, and a slight Res lead on Lucius for a few maps (assuming no Lyn Mode). The Dread Isle maps are generally good for him. He can sort of hang out on the frontlines of normal difficulty and gain combat exp faster as a result. What holds him back is dark magic. The basic Flux tome is a point too heavy until he promotes. And 80 Base hit isn’t stellar (particularly since GBA era magic is impacted by terrain bonuses). So a lot of my Canas experience is shaky hit rates and staff utility
4. FE11: One of the brand new classes you forget they added in this version. There’s no unit in the game that can choose one or the other between dark mage or mage/curate, so for those male units this is their only Tome And Staff using option. Furthermore, dark mages have a separate class cap from regular ones, so that’s another way they’re not in direct competition with those other classes. Turning Cord into a Dark Mage at chapter 4 is pretty compelling because you take a unit with good stats and bad weapon ranks and give him 1-2 range. He won’t turn out great in the long term, but he’s useful in the short term for H5 runs even. More useful than a fighter that can’t lob a hand axe, anyway. I also find Fire to be one of the more forgeable weapons in the game, 3000G for +5 MT. I suppose, beyond dark mage Cord, the best reclass candidate would be Wolf/Sedgar on the lower difficulties where you don’t need their 20-30 defense nearly as much. They won’t kill enemies with their base 2 Mag stat, but that may be exactly what you want as you have them bait mobs of enemies to be mopped up by mid game units like the Whitewings, ballisticians, maybe even Tiki. Could be worth a shot on your next casual playthrough, because part of the problem with those two on lower difficulties is they get too efficient at killing.
5. The Last Promise: Yue’s not great. He’s pretty good on the Wyvern hell that is his join chapter but the amulet’s +10 Avoid isn’t enough to ensure he can survive too many javelins. Best to put that on a unit you like. Pretty generous 55 speed growth, but starting from 10 and using the heaviest magic type isn’t going to permit very many doubles. Rana is pretty thoroughly what you would get from a raised Yue, even down to still having a good speed growth for a dark mage. Solstice (Luna but with 15 less hit) is way too inaccurate to try nailing the late game boss’ absurd avoid rates. Ditto for Eclipse, but both tomes find their niche in Chapter 26 against enemy dark mages using the new Munio tome. They stand as literal walls with the tome’s added +20 Def/Res, but Rana is very handy at taking them out. Then again, when it comes to this role, he faces stiff competition from the Onigiri Sword and Cleave Axes that can be used by a lot more classes.
6. FE6: Sophia is a contender for worst unit in the game. Joining right at the halfway point with lower stats than your Chapter 1 crew. Not impossible to train, but remarkably hard to keep alive, especially if you’re not pre-cognizant of ambush spawns. 70 base hit bites, especially when you consider GBA era magic accuracy is affected by terrain. Raigh is a better choice of growth unit, though still not boasting much of a niche that I can see. And finally there’s Niime who’s purpose is being a unit that can potentially wield Apocalypse for the finale if you raised neither of the dark mages. She’s basically an early promoted Sophia granted an A rank in Staves to assist with warping, physic, etc. Again, hard to keep alive but it can pay off for the dragon finale if you can find enough enemies for her to build Dark rank S off of. Chapter 21x is the sort of slow, easy map that’s perfect for her.

If I put this into tiers #1-3 are B tier and the rest are C

 

I like the way you spent the entire Shadow Dragon part not mentioning the only native Sorcerer in the DS games, Etzel. I mean, it is entirely apt for how classes are handled in DS, but still sort of funny. What Etzel being the only sorcerer actually entails on that point, is that you can only ever have two Dark Mages period. Also, unless you want to count the enemy only Imhullu for purely stylistic reasons, Dark Magic doesn't exist in any way shape or form in the DS, yet Dark Mages do, which is just, sorta weird.

I also noted you counted Dark Knight and I sort of question that inclusion. Because I don't see them as the same class. One is mounted and the other is infantry, that seems a pretty clear divide, as much as Sage and Valkyrie or Archer and Bow Knight. They also both exist in the same games and are in direct competition with each other. And in Awakening, where Dark Knights were introduced, they pointedly couldn't use the Dark Tomes that Dark Mages and Sorcerers could, which seems like a fairly clear indicator that these are to be considered different class lines.

[Samu_77]

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I also noted you counted Dark Knight and I sort of question that inclusion. Because I don't see them as the same class. One is mounted and the other is infantry, that seems a pretty clear divide, as much as Sage and Valkyrie or Archer and Bow Knight. They also both exist in the same games and are in direct competition with each other. And in Awakening, where Dark Knights were introduced, they pointedly couldn't use the Dark Tomes that Dark Mages and Sorcerers could, which seems like a fairly clear indicator that these are to be considered different class lines.

Dark Knights come from Dark Mages, so I think it's fair to do so. It is strange to say, rate Leo as a Dark Mage when he needs to reclass in order to use Dark Magic, but he has the skills from that class and it comes from it so I think it's fair to do so. 

Not ranking 3H because I just don't have the experience with Dark Mages to.

1: Awakening

Nosferatu

2:Fates

Sorcerer due to having access to the best 1-2 range in the game, as most other 1-2 don't allow for doubling or offensive skill activation, already has it pretty good. Using things like Life and Death and Vantage coupled with high-might Tomes can lead to wiping out whole fields of Conquest enemies at a time. Damage and Stat-Stacking is so good, in fact that Nosferatu-tanking can still be fairly reliable given all of the tonics, Rally's, stat-backpacking, ect. that you can do in this game. Dark Knights can feel a little weak in this game sometimes (although that is probably just me), but Sorcerer alone makes this class incredibly potent in my eyes, good class skills too from Dark Mage. 

3: FE8

Summoning is just so unbelievably cracked. It does so much for the player when utilized, and you get it basically for free on Knoll. I don't know if it's fair exactly to count Ewan as a Dark Mage since he isn't even one at the beginning, and his time as a Shaman is generally pretty poor, but the amount of free utility you get out of Phantoms is just so unbelievably absurd that I can't rank him anything lower, even if by the time you get him it's going to take a long time to get to Summoner from Pupil without a LOT of favoritism. Druid is... okay I guess. High Magic Staff utility is nice but it's pretty hard to do combat with Knoll because his stats just aren't really up to it and the same kinda applies for Ewan, but 1-2 range + staves is never going to be bad. 

 

4: FE7 

Canas is solid. 1-2 Range is valuable in this game and he does good damage and has staff utility. I'm not wild about his other tomes, but he generally gets the job done. He feels like a perfect example of a magical archetype in this type of game. 

5: FE6

It feels weird to put this down here when Niime is one of the best units in the late game right out of the box, but alas. 

Niime has the best Staff Usage in the entire game due to her high Magic and A-Rank, which alone makes her incredibly good. Her offense is also solid, which Flux isn't the most accurate tome it usually gets the job done when she needs it to. Apocolypse let's her boost her Staff utility AND will one-shot practically every Dragon you need it to at Range, which also counts for Wyverns in Ch.23. She has great resistance that can let her lightning-rod Siege tomes in either Route, although in Sacae her chance of getting smacked with a Ballistea is much higher. Her Physcial Defense is paper, but she almost always has enough speed to avoid getting doubled, so she's good for one attack. Her Availibility though, is just too bad to salvage the others. 

Raigh is just okay. Being a Guiding Ring promo in this game is generally pretty bad but even ignoring that, he doesn't have enough speed to double most things, he probably will get double by a lot of things, and his accuracy is a lot more suspect then your other Mages due to Dark Magic. He can still technically promote instantly and use Staves, but the low staff rank coupled with just not having the stats to keep up just makes him a very meh unit. 1-2 range is nice but that alone will not salvage a unit, speaking of which...

Sophia, if you don't count her Guiding Ring (I don't personally because it's in her join map where she's force deployed) is the worst unit in the game, which is impressive given some of her competition. Worst bases in the game, very unreliable hit that has 2RN working against her as much, if not more, as it is working for her, middling availability, she's dies in ANY round of combat for a good while, even magical because her HP and speed is so low. Worst of all even if you do decide to feed her like crazy, she doesn't even surpass other units that much because of how low her base stats are, her speed in particular would have her getting double from many Enemies for many a combat rounds. She can have staves but it's E-Rank. This unit is sad. 

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Samu_77 said:

Dark Knights come from Dark Mages, so I think it's fair to do so. It is strange to say, rate Leo as a Dark Mage when he needs to reclass in order to use Dark Magic, but he has the skills from that class and it comes from it so I think it's fair to do so.

Yeah, but the same can be said for Bow Knights and and Archers in all the games with branched promotion, and we treated them as separate classes. Three Houses again makes the divide clear with a special type of item being required for Dark Mage and Dark Bishop but not Dark Knight (hey, coming to think of it, to swap to the Holy Knight conversation in the other thread for a second, needing the Dark Seal to access Dark Knight could actually be a genuine balancing aspect to it).

Edited November 3, 2023 by Jotari

[SnowFire]

+1 to Jotari.  It was definitely confusing, but the "Dark Knight" class in some games really seems more like "Mage Knight" in games that have a class called that.

--

Busted: Awakening

(....big huge gap...)

Very good: FE6

Good: FE7, FE8 (Lagdou)

Average: Fates, (FE11/FE12 ?)

Bad: FE8 (maingame)

Pointless but inoffensive: Three Houses Dark Mage

Pointless and also very bad: Three Houses Dark Bishop

Sir Not Appearing Without New Game+: FE10

--

FE6 Nosferatu is kinda busted, similar to Awakening - it's reasonably light in weight and full heals damage dealt.  The only "problem" is that availability isn't great (and Sophia is bad, yes), but I see that as more a property of the characters than the class - if you could make Lugh a Dark Mage or something with sufficient funds to do so, it'd be an interesting option.  Helps that lots of enemies have garbage Res, so Raigh can go on a killing spree as long as he avoids unlucky misses.  Niime is famous for joining with A rank staves as well.  And hey, goofy Eclipse tricks too?!

FE7 Nos went from 6 Weight (FE6) to 14 Weight (!!), and Canas's stat spread isn't that great.  Still, goofy tricks like Luna offers some unique options.

FE8...  despite saying above that FE6 availability woes were more about characters than classes, it's just too big an issue here.  Knoll joins late and underlevel with 0 Lck, Ewan requires some boss grinding.  But I'm not even sure I'd be that hyped for Dark Mage even if Lute could be a Dark Mage; Anima is the magic type you want in FE8.  The class's rating would be in the garbage but Summoner is admittedly very good for endgame / postgame if you grind your way up to that, albeit in a deeply unfun kind of "let me watch AI-controlled units fight each other" strategy.

Giving FE10 a pass for obvious reasons.  Pelleas is...  okay for an Archsage on paper, but RD isn't known for being all that friendly to mages in general.

Sorcs are basically the same class as Sages in FE11/FE12, at least based on a quick trip to the stats page.  -1 Mag, +1 Def/Res, so...  probably a little worse.  But especially in FE11, a lot of enemies have garbage Resistance, so there's that at least.

Sorcs are broken in Awakening.  It's not just Nosferatu; Sorcs also get Waste at the lategame for when you really want to kill a boss now (and yeah, Celica's Gale exists if you farm Barracks events, but with much lower might and fewer weapon uses).  While it's still half-healing, it turns out that's still enough, especially when Tharja (/class-changed Robin) can get fast enough to double consistently with it, using +Speed Pairups if required.  Vengeance is funny for how even despite being half-healing, damage goes UP after taking damage which then allows for even more parasitic healing.  But wait there's more: Sorcs also learn Tomebreaker at L15, which can be pretty handy (screws over Aversa, the reinforcement siege tome users in C21, various scary postgame threats, etc.).

In Fates, Sorcs get just a single unique Dark Magic spell in Nosferatu, which has a flat "can't double" tag slapped on it along with 0 Crit / no skills.  Your "default" dark mage in Nyx is also extremely frail to try to dissuade you from Nos-tanking the map.  You can switch Leo over, but Dark Knight mobility can be pretty handy in Fates, so I don't think it's a great idea.  This would all be adding up to an outright Bad class, but I'll stick it in Average because I know people have made Nos-tanking work anyway, generally with either a +Mag Corrin build or some customized kid like an Ophelia with a mage mom like Felicia or Orochi (Rev-only).  Since you can't double, you just need absolutely every scrap of +Mag you can get to aim for OHKOs instead.  (EDIT: Not just Nyx, Odin too!  Yeah you can tell I class-changed him the one time I used him.)

In Three Houses, well, the flexible class system at the Intermediate level means that strictly speaking, there's not really any significant difference between Dark Mage and Mage.  +1/-1 stat here or there, who cares, it's a class with "can use Magic" and that's what's important.  However, Mage has a very good reward for mastering the class in Fiendish Blow, and Dark Mage has an extremely, extremely niche reward in Poison Strike.  And if you really want to use Poison Strike, it's actually not even at its best on mages in general (who should already be delivering plenty of damage), but rather on Bow Knights with low Str.  So while not, strictly speaking, a bad class, it's pointless because the reward isn't that great.

Dark Bishop goes beyond pointless and starts being actively terrible.  Again, in theory, Fiendish Blow helps make up for not having Dark Tomefaire for Hubert or something.  Except... you can just master Mage, and now DB having Fiendish Blow is a lot less compelling.  For anyone not named Hubert, you either can't qualify because you're female, or you don't want to qualify because Warlock is strictly better offering more spell charges and more spell damage.  Even Hubert is probably better off just being in Warlock.  Sheesh.

Edited November 4, 2023 by SnowFire

[Whisky]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I also noted you counted Dark Knight and I sort of question that inclusion. Because I don't see them as the same class. One is mounted and the other is infantry, that seems a pretty clear divide, as much as Sage and Valkyrie or Archer and Bow Knight. They also both exist in the same games and are in direct competition with each other. And in Awakening, where Dark Knights were introduced, they pointedly couldn't use the Dark Tomes that Dark Mages and Sorcerers could, which seems like a fairly clear indicator that these are to be considered different class lines.

‘Mounted’ vs ‘infantry’ can’t be a divide between class lines. There are several units in the series that start infantry and then can promote into mounted. Eliwood, Erika, Ephraim, Hunters to Horseman in the DS games, the Sniper line in Echoes promotes into Bow Knight similarly in 3H, though you might choose to stay as a Snipers just for Hunter’s Volley. There’s also several units in Sacred Stones that have the option to gain a mount when they promote and that option is just as much of a choice as the other option, there is no default option with these branching promotions. Neimi, Gerik, Gilliam, Lute, Natasha. Gaining a mount within a class line is not an uncommon thing in the series.

You also say that they’re in competition with each other. Thats certainly true in Sacred Stones, but doesn’t make them a separate class line, it makes them a branch from the same class line. Making Natasha a Valkyrie or Lute a Mage Knight is just valid as making them a Bishop or Sage. In other games that’s not really true. In Echoes, Bow Knight doesn’t compete with Sniper, it’s just an upgrade, the final promotion in the Sniper class line. In 3H, I don’t see what Dark Knight is really competing with. Gremory? Well they play very different roles and are female exclusive. For male mages (and some females) I think Dark Knight is hands down the best offensive magic class. 

Finally you say that Dark Knight’s couldn’t use Dark Magic in Awakening, and are therefore a different class from Dark Mages in that game. I agree, but they’re in 3H they can use Dark Magic. I’d say they’re a different class in 3H vs Awakening despite having the same name, moreso than being separate from Dark Bishop in 3H because of not using Dark Magic in some other game.

There’s some room for disagreement on definitions of classes and such, but it makes enough sense to me to include it, since it does act as the natural upgrade from Dark Bishop in 3H. and since they do have Dark Tome Faire, I think it’s very fair to consider them a type of Dark Mage.

Ultimately the rankings don’t matter a whole lot anyway, it’s not like we’re making an official list here. I’ll probably talk about both classes but talk about them separate. As always, I consider the what is being said more important than the rankings.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Whisky said:

‘Mounted’ vs ‘infantry’ can’t be a divide between class lines. There are several units in the series that start infantry and then can promote into mounted. Eliwood, Erika, Ephraim, Hunters to Horseman in the DS games, the Sniper line in Echoes promotes into Bow Knight similarly in 3H, though you might choose to stay as a Snipers just for Hunter’s Volley. There’s also several units in Sacred Stones that have the option to gain a mount when they promote and that option is just as much of a choice as the other option, there is no default option with these branching promotions. Neimi, Gerik, Gilliam, Lute, Natasha. Gaining a mount within a class line is not an uncommon thing in the series.

You also say that they’re in competition with each other. Thats certainly true in Sacred Stones, but doesn’t make them a separate class line, it makes them a branch from the same class line. Making Natasha a Valkyrie or Lute a Mage Knight is just valid as making them a Bishop or Sage. In other games that’s not really true. In Echoes, Bow Knight doesn’t compete with Sniper, it’s just an upgrade, the final promotion in the Sniper class line. In 3H, I don’t see what Dark Knight is really competing with. Gremory? Well they play very different roles and are female exclusive. For male mages (and some females) I think Dark Knight is hands down the best offensive magic class. 

Finally you say that Dark Knight’s couldn’t use Dark Magic in Awakening, and are therefore a different class from Dark Mages in that game. I agree, but they’re in 3H they can use Dark Magic. I’d say they’re a different class in 3H vs Awakening despite having the same name, moreso than being separate from Dark Bishop in 3H because of not using Dark Magic in some other game.

There’s some room for disagreement on definitions of classes and such, but it makes enough sense to me to include it, since it does act as the natural upgrade from Dark Bishop in 3H. and since they do have Dark Tome Faire, I think it’s very fair to consider them a type of Dark Mage.

Ultimately the rankings don’t matter a whole lot anyway, it’s not like we’re making an official list here. I’ll probably talk about both classes but talk about them separate. As always, I consider the what is being said more important than the rankings.

Sure, mounted infantry divide isn't the sole distinguisher of classes...but it is an distinguisher. I mean, it's like saying weapon ranks aren't a distingusher because they change between games too. What makes a class is a bunch of different things, and Dark Knight doesn't actually share many of them with Dark Mages. Even in Three Houses you don't need the Dark Seal which is required for Dark Mage and Sorcerer. And specifically for Sorcerer you need to actually qualify for Dark Mage first creating a class line connection that Dark Knight is specifically not a part of.

[Whisky]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Sure, mounted infantry divide isn't the sole distinguisher of classes...but it is an distinguisher. I mean, it's like saying weapon ranks aren't a distingusher because they change between games too. What makes a class is a bunch of different things, and Dark Knight doesn't actually share many of them with Dark Mages. Even in Three Houses you don't need the Dark Seal which is required for Dark Mage and Sorcerer. And specifically for Sorcerer you need to actually qualify for Dark Mage first creating a class line connection that Dark Knight is specifically not a part of.

Well class lines are different between every game anyway, this comparison series we’ve been doing doesn’t exactly fit perfectly between games, but we’re doing it anyway just for fun. One complication we ran into earlier was figuring out whether Astrid counts as a Nomad, a Cavalier, or both.

In Echoes, Bow Knight promotes from Sniper and is clearly within the same Archer/Sniper class line. In FE6/7, Nomad is a distinctly separate class line from Archer. In SD, Hunter is an infantry class that promotes into the mounted Horseman class. Hunter -> Horseman is a clear class line that is distinct from the Archer line. In most FE games, class lines are easy to define based on which classes promote into what.

3H is complicated because for the most part, it really doesn’t have class lines at all. You don’t ‘promote’ the same way as in most FE games. You can certify into any class that you meet the requirements for regardless of what other class you’re in. The only ‘class lines’ for the most part, are just whatever seems to make logical sense to people. Archer -> Sniper is a logical class line, but there’s nothing stopping you from going Archer -> Wyvern Rider, or Brigand -> Sniper, or whatever instead. Archer -> Sniper -> Bow Knight is a pretty logical progression, and if not for Hunter’s Volley, Bow Knight would be a pretty direct upgrade from Sniper.

You bring up a good point about Dark Bishop requiring you do have certified for Dark Mage, making these two classes into a clear ‘class line’. That’s actually the only class in the game that works that way. But even despite that, I’d personally find it a bit strange to not include Dark Knight given that it is hands down the best ending class for the main Dark Mage of the game; Hubert. Dark Mage -> Dark Bishop -> Dark Knight is a pretty natural progression for him and Dark Knight is a pretty direct upgrade form Dark Bishop. It’s the only class in the game to have Dark Tome Faire, so it’s pretty clearly a Dark Magic using class. The other main Dark Magic user; Lysithea, can’t even be a Dark Mage/Bishop because those classes are for some reason male only, but Dark Knight is a very good class for her because of Dark Tome Faire.

I’d consider 3H Dark Knight closer to a Dark Mage class than Dark Mage / Sorcerer in the DS games. Despite being called Dark Mages, they don’t actually use Dark Magic. They’re more like alternative versions of Mages than they are actual Dark Mages. Whereas Dark Knights are Dark Magic users because of Dark Tome Faire.

If you don’t want to include it, that’s fair enough. But I don’t think it’s strange at all that some people think it should be included, and from my perspective, the fact that it’s the natural final progression of the main Dark Magic user of the game pretty much seals the deal for me to include it.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

I like the way you spent the entire Shadow Dragon part not mentioning the only native Sorcerer in the DS games, Etzel. I mean, it is entirely apt for how classes are handled in DS, but still sort of funny.

I am in fact one of the dozen people on this planet that has recruited and used Etzel and I didn't think it was pertinent. He doesn't appear in realistic, serious playthroughs of the game, because if someone did get 26 units killed (+ replacements), they probably already put the game down by chapter 17x. A soft iron man that doesn't reset on Marth's death? Really the most likely scenario is how I came to use Etzel: "I want to complete the Event Recap on my DS cartridge". If you want my review of Etzel, he's okay. Kind of like a worse Cecilia that lost her horse. D rank staves so he can't warp for the portion of the game where that really matters. He can't class change into Bishop to address that either. FE11's Master Seals are tight, so it's handy that he joins pre-promoted. His Base Mag is really high, equal to Gotoh in fact and he can wield Merric's excalibur (pretty good odds Merric is dead, too, if Etzel is on the team). But the list of reasons why Gotoh is good would run pretty long before getting to "and he can use Merric's Excalibur"

But the crux of why I didn't mention Etzel is FE11 itself. I approach that game differently because looking at the units that happen to join in each class feels like I'm missing the point of FE11 by a wide margin. Changing class is free in a literal sense and most units don't have anything other than 1-3 base stats and some weapon exp. No personal skills or affinity for any class

Quote

I also noted you counted Dark Knight and I sort of question that inclusion. Because I don't see them as the same class. One is mounted and the other is infantry, that seems a pretty clear divide, as much as Sage and Valkyrie or Archer and Bow Knight. They also both exist in the same games and are in direct competition with each other. And in Awakening, where Dark Knights were introduced, they pointedly couldn't use the Dark Tomes that Dark Mages and Sorcerers could, which seems like a fairly clear indicator that these are to be considered different class lines.

It does seem a little discordant, even accounting for the fact that Three Houses' class based system is very different and includes a whopping five tiers instead of the contemporary two (some classes had to be made up! And some are fulfilling multiple classlines, like The Great Knight). I added a small edit to the bottom of my ranking about how if I did exclude Dark Knight from Three Houses it would rank above FE6 instead. However I did provide my own reasons why I ultimately would prefer to include Dark Knights in a Dark Mage discussion. 

I didn't say so in the OP of this thread, but I'll reiterate that I encourage anybody to use their own justifications and framework for their own lists. I can see how my list, positioned in the OP, can appear authoritative on "what's allowed", but in truth it's the opposite intent - and part of why I throw it in a spoiler tab. This also goes for how one wants to approach individual games. I spent much of my Three Houses write up clearing up misconceptions about Class Masteries, since there wasn't much to say on the class' performance. And I don't see how Dark Knight's mechanics in Awakening should impact this game.

12 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Dark Bishop goes beyond pointless and starts being actively terrible.  Again, in theory, Fiendish Blow helps make up for not having Dark Tomefaire for Hubert or something.  Except... you can just master Mage, and now DB having Fiendish Blow is a lot less compelling.  For anyone not named Hubert, you either can't qualify because you're female, or you don't want to qualify because Warlock is strictly better offering more spell charges and more spell damage.  Even Hubert is probably better off just being in Warlock.  Sheesh.

How would mastering Mage affect Fiendish Blow? They stack. Now Hubie does +12 damage. You're absolutely right that Hubert would prefer to be in Mage over Dark Mage (even after picking up Fiendish Blow) because being in mage gives him ten charges of Fire, an accurate, low weight spell that's valuable than 2x Miasma charges. Heartseeker is a great skill to help his accuracy, but Hubert does not always have the movement range to get that close, and if he dies on retaliation than it's not an option for him. Warlock removes access to Fire so it's a big downgrade. Nothing about that class aids his combat unless you really want Bowbreaker. 

This is also why I complimented the class for Lorenz, not just Hubert. He'll lose 3 and 2 charges of Ragnarok and Agnea's Arrow compared to Warlock, but Heartseeker is a nice utility. He's barely bulky enough to sit on the frontlines of maddening, and all units benefit from it, not just the user. Dark Bishop slinging a Fire spell is also +2 damage over Warlock doing the same. And Frozen lance with +7 damage makes it more than comparable damage to Lorenz' nuke spells. Warlock is just...not great. Even in the No DLC meta, but we'll get to its problems in the Mage discussion.

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

How would mastering Mage affect Fiendish Blow? They stack.

They do not, unless they've updated it since I checked last.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Well class lines are different between every game anyway, this comparison series we’ve been doing doesn’t exactly fit perfectly between games, but we’re doing it anyway just for fun. One complication we ran into earlier was figuring out whether Astrid counts as a Nomad, a Cavalier, or both.

In Echoes, Bow Knight promotes from Sniper and is clearly within the same Archer/Sniper class line. In FE6/7, Nomad is a distinctly separate class line from Archer. In SD, Hunter is an infantry class that promotes into the mounted Horseman class. Hunter -> Horseman is a clear class line that is distinct from the Archer line. In most FE games, class lines are easy to define based on which classes promote into what.

3H is complicated because for the most part, it really doesn’t have class lines at all. You don’t ‘promote’ the same way as in most FE games. You can certify into any class that you meet the requirements for regardless of what other class you’re in. The only ‘class lines’ for the most part, are just whatever seems to make logical sense to people. Archer -> Sniper is a logical class line, but there’s nothing stopping you from going Archer -> Wyvern Rider, or Brigand -> Sniper, or whatever instead. Archer -> Sniper -> Bow Knight is a pretty logical progression, and if not for Hunter’s Volley, Bow Knight would be a pretty direct upgrade from Sniper.

You bring up a good point about Dark Bishop requiring you do have certified for Dark Mage, making these two classes into a clear ‘class line’. That’s actually the only class in the game that works that way. But even despite that, I’d personally find it a bit strange to not include Dark Knight given that it is hands down the best ending class for the main Dark Mage of the game; Hubert. Dark Mage -> Dark Bishop -> Dark Knight is a pretty natural progression for him and Dark Knight is a pretty direct upgrade form Dark Bishop. It’s the only class in the game to have Dark Tome Faire, so it’s pretty clearly a Dark Magic using class. The other main Dark Magic user; Lysithea, can’t even be a Dark Mage/Bishop because those classes are for some reason male only, but Dark Knight is a very good class for her because of Dark Tome Faire.

I’d consider 3H Dark Knight closer to a Dark Mage class than Dark Mage / Sorcerer in the DS games. Despite being called Dark Mages, they don’t actually use Dark Magic. They’re more like alternative versions of Mages than they are actual Dark Mages. Whereas Dark Knights are Dark Magic users because of Dark Tome Faire.

If you don’t want to include it, that’s fair enough. But I don’t think it’s strange at all that some people think it should be included, and from my perspective, the fact that it’s the natural final progression of the main Dark Magic user of the game pretty much seals the deal for me to include it.

That's putting a lot of weight on the faire skill. Heroes and Swordmasters both have swordfaire but that doesn't make them same class.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I am in fact one of the dozen people on this planet that has recruited and used Etzel and I didn't think it was pertinent. He doesn't appear in realistic, serious playthroughs of the game, because if someone did get 26 units killed (+ replacements), they probably already put the game down by chapter 17x. A soft iron man that doesn't reset on Marth's death? Really the most likely scenario is how I came to use Etzel: "I want to complete the Event Recap on my DS cartridge". If you want my review of Etzel, he's okay. Kind of like a worse Cecilia that lost her horse. D rank staves so he can't warp for the portion of the game where that really matters. He can't class change into Bishop to address that either. FE11's Master Seals are tight, so it's handy that he joins pre-promoted. His Base Mag is really high, equal to Gotoh in fact and he can wield Merric's excalibur (pretty good odds Merric is dead, too, if Etzel is on the team). But the list of reasons why Gotoh is good would run pretty long before getting to "and he can use Merric's Excalibur"

But the crux of why I didn't mention Etzel is FE11 itself. I approach that game differently because looking at the units that happen to join in each class feels like I'm missing the point of FE11 by a wide margin. Changing class is free in a literal sense and most units don't have anything other than 1-3 base stats and some weapon exp. No personal skills or affinity for any class

It does seem a little discordant, even accounting for the fact that Three Houses' class based system is very different and includes a whopping five tiers instead of the contemporary two (some classes had to be made up! And some are fulfilling multiple classlines, like The Great Knight). I added a small edit to the bottom of my ranking about how if I did exclude Dark Knight from Three Houses it would rank above FE6 instead. However I did provide my own reasons why I ultimately would prefer to include Dark Knights in a Dark Mage discussion. 

I didn't say so in the OP of this thread, but I'll reiterate that I encourage anybody to use their own justifications and framework for their own lists. I can see how my list, positioned in the OP, can appear authoritative on "what's allowed", but in truth it's the opposite intent - and part of why I throw it in a spoiler tab. This also goes for how one wants to approach individual games. I spent much of my Three Houses write up clearing up misconceptions about Class Masteries, since there wasn't much to say on the class' performance. And I don't see how Dark Knight's mechanics in Awakening should impact this game.

How would mastering Mage affect Fiendish Blow? They stack. Now Hubie does +12 damage. You're absolutely right that Hubert would prefer to be in Mage over Dark Mage (even after picking up Fiendish Blow) because being in mage gives him ten charges of Fire, an accurate, low weight spell that's valuable than 2x Miasma charges. Heartseeker is a great skill to help his accuracy, but Hubert does not always have the movement range to get that close, and if he dies on retaliation than it's not an option for him. Warlock removes access to Fire so it's a big downgrade. Nothing about that class aids his combat unless you really want Bowbreaker. 

This is also why I complimented the class for Lorenz, not just Hubert. He'll lose 3 and 2 charges of Ragnarok and Agnea's Arrow compared to Warlock, but Heartseeker is a nice utility. He's barely bulky enough to sit on the frontlines of maddening, and all units benefit from it, not just the user. Dark Bishop slinging a Fire spell is also +2 damage over Warlock doing the same. And Frozen lance with +7 damage makes it more than comparable damage to Lorenz' nuke spells. Warlock is just...not great. Even in the No DLC meta, but we'll get to its problems in the Mage discussion.

Own criteria is well and good, but where does that leave Mage Knights, which as someone pointed out is essentially what Dark Knights are before a rebrand. Will there be a dedicated discussion on mounted cavalry that are less staff focused than Valkyries? It would seem partially redundant to do so if Dark Knights are fully analyzed here.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Jotari

[Zapp Branniglenn]

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Own criteria is well and good, but where does that leave Mage Knights, which as someone pointed out is essentially what Dark Knights are before a rebrand. Will there be a dedicated discussion on mounted cavalry that are less staff focused than Valkyries? It would seem partially redundant to do so if Dark Knights are fully analyzed here.

I don't know of a mounted mage class that isn't a promotion of an infantry mage class, or the troubadour's promotion in GBAFE. And I think it would be too superfluous to do a thread on what only exists as a promotion branch. 

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

They do not, unless they've updated it since I checked last.

Well that's annoying. I can stack multiple different Blow skills, but not two of the same? Got to be an oversight

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

So, I'm only going to count classes that can innately use Dark Magic. The only exception I'll make are the Dark Mage and Sorceror classes, in the Archanea remakes. This is a class type that took a while to become playable, but ever since, it's been around most of the time. How would I rank them, from worst to best?

Spoiler

8. Radiant Dawn. I'll forgive any players who aren't aware that this class exists, as it takes a second playthrough. Pelleas is the only "Dark Sage", and he doesn't show up until Part IV, giving him a whopping... two chapters, and maybe the Tower. But at least he can use cool tomes like Nosferatu and Luna, right? Nope - tongue-twisting names aside, the Dark tomes of Tellius have no secondary effects. Congratulations, RD, you've done something no other game has achieved - you made Dark Magic boring.

7. Three Houses. To start with, you need a "Dark Seal" to even access this (male-exclusive) class. And all but the most enterprising players won't have one, until the end of chapter 6. Next, while Poison Strike has its uses, it's typically inferior to Fiendish Blow from Mage. But to the Dark Mage's credit, the class has a 1-point Magic advantage over Mage (and likewise for Dark Bishop over Warlock). In this light, it's a great class for a male unit who has already mastered Mage, and doesn't have any other Intermediate masteries to gain. While Dark Bishop can have "niche" uses, say, to get 1 extra tile of Warp distance. Inferior classes, but not totally useless.

6. Fates. Odin and Nyx are flawed units, but they still have their uses in Conquest. Tomes are decently well-balanced... except against Shurikens, which destroy them. Ophelia can turn out better than either one, but she takes a while to access. As for Revelation, these units are sadly left by the wayside. In general, it's not the worst reclass option for Niles, Leo, or Flora, but having exclusive access to Nerfsferatu is hardly a boon.

5. Shadow Dragon. Etzel is the only playable Sorceror (by default) in the game, and he comes pretty late - not until chapter 17x. Still, he's not half-bad - able to use the likes of Thoron and Excalibur from the get-go. He can also use Starlight, if no one else can. He's filler, but can be a solid replacement to your dead Mages. As for Dark Mage, it can be a fun reclass for someone like Cord or Draug. There are very few "natural Mages" in that class pool, but getting another tome user that early on can be a nice change of pace.

4. Sacred Stones. So, I feel like the GBA games are actually very tight with each other. Dark Mages offer something interesting and valuable, but different, in each one. In Magvel, it's the ability to Summon - a really cool technique to distract and bait foes. That said, there's not much more they bring. Knoll joins later than I'd like, while Ewan takes a ton of babying. Luna is also far less accurate than in the last game. It's worth noting that Druid adds Anima to its repertoire, but it's still the inferior choice to Summoner.

3. FE6. Tomes aren't very heavy in this game, and Nosferatu is no exception. Rei comes just under halfway through the game, and can be a great contributor, especially supporting with Lugh and/or Chad. As for Niime, she joins in the lategame, and while she's frail, her high ranks and Magic stat give her some key utility. But Luna doesn't exist yet, and the class is dragged down by Sophia - possibly the worst unit in the game. Still, one of the class' stronger outings.

2. FE7. Canas is the only user of the class in this game, but he comes well before the midpoint of Eliwood/Hector's story. None of his stats are exceptional, but none are bad, either. This gives him surprising bulk, and once he's doubling, few enemies will survive. Promoting also gives big stat boosts, relative to other classes in this game. Moreover, he's the only user of the premier Luna tome before the Endgame, which will just get stronger as enemy Res increases. Canas isn't a "must-bring", but he's one of the best investment units around.

1. Awakening. Was there any doubt? Nosferatu is readily buyable, forgeable, and with no Weight stat holding it back! Nosfertanking has never been better, with Sorceror's Vengeance adding to the effect. Tharja and Henry are both solid units, while it's a great reclass choice for Robin or Miriel. In a juggernaut-oriented game, of course the class that juggernauts best would be in the lead.

I might do a smaller post comparing Dark Knights, or... maybe all mounted Mage classes? Not decided yet!

@Zapp Branniglenn I personally think "Manaketes" and "Beastformers" should be separate threads. My assessment of Manaketes in Awakening is very different from my assessment of Taguel, and I don't feel comfortable "averaging" the two.

[samthedigital]

Awakening>FE6>FE7>Conquest>FE8

Awakening: Nosferatu, Hex, Anathema, good caps, etc. There are a lot of different ways to break Awakening, so I wouldn't put it on a pedestal exactly, but it is a fantastic class regardless. Robin, Laurent, and Tharja are the three units that come to mind as the traditional nostanking units. Robin is the best at everything, so while Sorcerer is a good option there are also a lot of other things that they can do like grabbing Armsthrift/Sol, Galeforce, etc and be just as good (depending on difficulty). Laurent has been a great Sorcerer for me in my Lunatic+ playthrough. His mom has a "free" source of experience once she promotes, so it doesn't take much to get him Tomefaire and start snowballing him. I'm not as much of a fan of Tharja because of her poor luck and skill. I haven't actually used her yet (maybe soon), but it seems to me that because of that she would have a rough time getting to the point where she starts snowballing, and Nosferatu isn't buyable until after chapter 13 iirc.

FE6: I have the game this high exclusively because of Niime. She has a fantastic Warp range and the A rank to use it instantly, and it doesn't take too much for her to get S dark compared to the other Dark Mages to use Apocalypse at the end of the game. The other two (Sophia infamously so) have a poor start and would drag FE6 down if I was averaging the units out.

FE7: Canas is good especially when promoted early since he gets staves and what is effectively +4 speed. I want to say that he stands out more without Lyn mode since he only takes 2 levels to promote compared to the other mages, but I tend to prefer the other two if we're including it. I might be remembering wrong though; it's been a while. I guess that Luna and Nosferatu are worth mentioning here, but Nosferatu is heavy and the tomes are only situationally useful.

Conquest: I haven't used Nyx much for a similar reason to Tharja; I don't like her poor hit rates. I would probably early promote her to Dark Knight and keep her around for as long as her stats are relevant if I really wanted to use her, but I prefer Odin and Ophelia. I've never used Odin in a long term context, but I do rather like the Nosferatu utility in a few situations until I marry him off and permanently bench him. I have had a lot of success with Ophelia, but I vastly prefer Malig Knight because of the mobility, so I wouldn't count that as much of a positive for the class. Camilla makes any kid good too, so maybe there's some bias there. Leo is also worth a mention too if we're counting him, but there's not much to say there. He has good bases, has a mount, and his prf weapon is pretty good.

FE8: Summoner is probably good in a vacuum, but Ewan has a training arc, and I don't remember Knoll's summons being useful more than a handful of times in a playthrough using Warp and the like.

Edited November 3, 2023 by samthedigital

[Shadow Mir]

B rank in Binding Blade. Honestly, Niime is the main reason for this; Raigh is okay, but not great, and Sophia is a candidate for the worst unit in the game. It helps that Nosferatu is not very heavy in this game.

C rank in Blazing Blade. Nosferatu got nerfed, having its weight jacked up from 6 to 14 (!!!), and Canas doesn't really have a great stat spread. That said, Luna is really broken here (albeit situational, as most enemies have poor resistance.

D tier in Sacred Stones. There is quite a bit going against the class here; first off, the above mentioned Luna got nerfed to hell, with its crit rate halved and its accuracy going way down, from 95 to 50. Second, availability issues; only Knoll and Ewan can access it, with the latter being the latest joining of the trainees, coming past the halfway point of the game, and the former coming in chapter 15. Third, Gleipnir, the dark Sacred Twin weapon, is laughably terrible, with a MASSIVE 20 weight, and adding insult to injury, it is NOT effective against monsters! The only reason it ain't E is because of Summoner.

E tier in Radiant Dawn. Putting aside the fact he needs a replay to obtain, Pelleas comes underleveled, which is bad enough, but he also comes late (as in part 4 late), AND mages are at their worst in Radiant Dawn. Not helping matters is the fact his only other magic type is thunder, which got nerfed, which means he's liable to have accuracy problems. Nor does it that Balberith sucks. Oh, and dark magic in general doesn't have much of anything going for it either. 

A tier in Awakening. Honestly, with all the focus Nosferatu gets, it's easy to forget about Mire, the only long range attack in the game. There is also Ruin, which has a 50 crit rate. The only real knock against it is that the only natural dark mages have issues.

D tier in Fates. First, the obvious: Nosferatu got nerfed. That was to be expected, but... honestly, it's a bit excessive for dark magic to have pretty much gotten culled for it (the whole thing calls to mind Dark Void and Darkrai). Also, Vengeance got nerfed, thanks to lower stats and  decreased activation chance. Anyway, Nyx and Odin are lackluster. As in really bad.

E tier in Three Houses. Unlike every other class, Dark Mage needs a separate item to qualify for, which is the start of the problem as Dark Seals only have one source. This makes Dark Mage harder to qualify for than other Intermediate classes, so it and Dark Bishop would need to have good offerings to make up for this. Unfortunately, they don't, as Dark Mage gives Poison Strike on mastery... which compares unfavorably to Fiendish Blow from Mage. It gets worse: You need ANOTHER Dark Seal to qualify for Dark Bishop. And its mastery ability is even worse; Lifetaker. Unlike in prior appearances, where it healed for half the unit's max HP when an enemy was defeated, Lifetaker only heals half the HP that the enemy had when the user attacked and defeated them. This means you pretty much need to oneshot or one-round the foe for it to do anything. Oh, and they're male exclusive on top of all this... when most of the handful of units that learn dark magic are female (only 3 units learn dark magic exclusively for Reason... and two of those are female). Long story short, the classes only benefit Hubert (who gets more Miasma charges)... who is only available on one route... and no one else.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[lenticular]

Awakening is the obvious stand-out here, far above any other game, for reasons that everyone else has already said. Other than that, I find most Dark Mages throughout the series to be extremely forgettable. I think that part of the problem is just with how few of them there are. This makes sense in narative, since it would take away any of the mystique of the class if you recruited three dark mages in chapter 2, but on the gameplay side of things, it means that they have to do more to stand out. This is especially true for late-joiners like Knoll and Pelleas. My overall impression is that dark magic essentially doesn't exist in Sacred Stones and Radiant Dawn. I know that it does, but I never think of it when I think of those games. Canas is pretty decent and is probably the best impression that a dark magic user has left on me in any game that isn't Awakening, but he's neither exceptionally strong nor exceptionally memorable.

For the Three Houses classes, I think that they are weird in that they are a good bit better for casual players than for players who are optimising their character builds. If you're a casual player who either doesn't know or couldn't be bothered to pick up Fiendish Blow from mastering Mage, then I should think that Dark Bishop would be pretty decent. I also think that the mastery skills can be pretty fun to play around with in NG+ but doing something like putting Lifetaker on a Fortress Knight is completely impractical outside of NG+.

[Jotari]

I'll take a moment to get off the hill I'm dying on to talk about something everyone else seems to have overlooked...the actual introduction of the class to the series. Thracia? Salem? Am I the only one that's played it? Well, Salem is a pretty great unit!...but kind of a rubbish Dark Mage. Dark tomes and the difficult to use and they lose their special effects when used by the player, which is just lame. You'll probably find yourself using basic wind magic or something with him more often. No, his main utility is that he's actually a staff bot in disguise, coming with C rank staves at a point in the game where you only have a handful of staff users. And when you promote him he gains a staff rank instead of a Dark Magic rank! Maybe we should wait until the clerics thread to talk about him after all! But, it's kind of cool in a character way that he is abandoning the soul eating magic and putting his efforts into healing over hurting. And what a great name for the series first dark mage.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Personally I don't think Dark Knight belongs with dark mages at all, despite the name. Dark mages are largely defined by their access to otherwise exclusive dark magic. The only game where Dark Knight can use dark magic is also the only class where ANY mage class can use dark magic, provided the character in question learns any. I definitely think Dark Knight belongs with Mage Knight and similar. (Obviously it's totally cool for everyone to make their own lists how they want though; very much agree with Zapp on that one.)

1. Awakening: Yeah, Nosferatu is one of the easiest ways to break the game wide open. It's not like the other dark tomes are bad either, with a brave tome and a killer tome.

2. Binding Blade: Honestly kinda think they're a bit underrated. Nosferatu is storebought, light, and not horrifically inaccurate, and unlike Awakening it even does healing = full damage, rather than half. It's pretty easy to get a Raigh who just devours entire armies with it once he gets rolling, and Niime can do it easily too if given a storebought robe or two to ward off OHKOs from Silver Lance Wyvern Lords and the like. Sophia sucks but that's definitely a Sophia problem, not a class problem.

3. Fates: Nosferatu isn't nearly as busted in this game thanks to the no-doubling tag, but it's still an incredibly useful tool with the right support, and the Sorcerer class itself has nice stats, including bonuses to the derived stats which are welcome.

4. Blazing Blade: Canas has worse stats than Raigh and Nosferatu weighs a lot... Luna is cool though (albeit you have Athos for the one map it is coolest).

5. Sacred Stones: FE7 nerfed Nosferatu, and now FE8 nerfs Luna to add to it! Also they basically don't get a Sacred Twin. On top of that, both dark mages have crappy combat... but summoning is a unique niche they have. Not sure how to score this.

6. Three Houses: 3H wishes I counted Dark Knight, since I like that! Dark Mage and Dark Bishop are pretty clearly the worst mage classes in the game even before considering the need to go out of the way to obtain their seals; mastering Dark Mage doesn't give Fiendish Blow, and Dark Bishop gives no useful bonuses aside from a Fiendish Blow that doesn't stack with the one you got from mastering Mage. Dark Bishop has a slight niche for Hubert but only because every other Advanced mage class is either not available to him or doesn't offer him anything, but that's not really praise for Dark Bishop itself. (and even then, I personally prefer Paladin for him in this tier).

Abstaining on RD since it's New Game+ only but... yeah it's clearly not great. I'd rank it around Sacred Stones depending on how I feel about summoning on any given day.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Dark Holy Elf

[samthedigital]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Thracia? Salem? Am I the only one that's played it?

Nah, I've played it, but I completely forgot that he was applicable because I've used him exclusively as a staffbot. I agree with your assessment of him, though.

Edited November 4, 2023 by samthedigital

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I just loaded up Three Houses to check the Fiendish Blow situation and yeah. It just disappears from Lorenz' equipped skills when he reclasses to dark bishop. No message that something happened. Only becoming selectable again when he's a different class. It happened again with Steal when I turned Catherine into a Thief. At least that's a case where it makes sense to stop the player from doing something redundant. Someone on the dev team really looked at Dark Bishop, made the nerf, and didn't continue to address stacking different types of Blow skills, or stacking weapon faires, or anything else obviously abusable. Don't let anyone ever tell you Three Houses wasn't balanced, because this is the proof one guy did something.

25 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

@Zapp Branniglenn I personally think "Manaketes" and "Beastformers" should be separate threads. My assessment of Manaketes in Awakening is very different from my assessment of Taguel, and I don't feel comfortable "averaging" the two.

I was thinking about how I could expand the scope so that there were more entries to talk about. Especially since the last two games that are freshest in peoples' minds have neither type of unit. It was going to be just Manaketes besides. If we did Beasts alone, I would have just one game to talk about: FE9. And maybe a rom hack's secret character.

I'm in favor of combining, but I'd like to hear from anyone else how best to handle this situation

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I just loaded up Three Houses to check the Fiendish Blow situation and yeah. It just disappears from Lorenz' equipped skills when he reclasses to dark bishop. No message that something happened. Only becoming selectable again when he's a different class. It happened again with Steal when I turned Catherine into a Thief. At least that's a case where it makes sense to stop the player from doing something redundant. Someone on the dev team really looked at Dark Bishop, made the nerf, and didn't continue to address stacking different types of Blow skills, or stacking weapon faires, or anything else obviously abusable. Don't let anyone ever tell you Three Houses wasn't balanced, because this is the proof one guy did something.

I was thinking about how I could expand the scope so that there were more entries to talk about. Especially since the last two games that are freshest in peoples' minds have neither type of unit. It was going to be just Manaketes besides. If we did Beasts alone, I would have just one game to talk about: FE9. And maybe a rom hack's secret character.

I'm in favor of combining, but I'd like to hear from anyone else how best to handle this situation

My gut reaction was to split like Shanty said, but on actually considering it, I think combined is best. Visually they are quite different, but, if you think about it, mechanically they are very similar. Dragon Laguz are no more different to beast Laguz than beast Laguz are to bird Laguz. And re Manaketes and Taguel being different, Wolfskins and Kitsune by themselves are very different units. I actually think the weirdest one to include will be Kana and Corrin, since they can use a weapon other than the transformation stone unlike every other shifter (well actually I guess Nel and Rafal can too, but unlike them Corrin feels more primarily a swordie with dragon as an option versus dragon with alternate weapon choice sometimes useful for breaking. I guess the difference between Sages (primarily tomes) and Bishops (primarily staffs) even though they have the same weapon ranks. We've also already discussed Corrin (though not Kana who is pushed to use stones more) as a lord.

[Samu_77]

 

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

2. Binding Blade: Honestly kinda think they're a bit underrated. Nosferatu is storebought, light, and not horrifically inaccurate, and unlike Awakening it even does healing = full damage, rather than half. It's pretty easy to get a Raigh who just devours entire armies with it once he gets rolling, and Niime can do it easily too if given a storebought robe or two to ward off OHKOs from Silver Lance Wyvern Lords and the like. Sophia sucks but that's definitely a Sophia problem, not a class problem.

Is Nosferatu Tanking in this game really this good? I've seen other people mention it but when I tested it out in my recent FE6 playthrough I remember the accuracy being fairly unreliable from Raigh, I can see it being really good on Normal Mode but can it hold up on Hard Mode?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Laguz are no more different to beast Laguz than beast Laguz are to bird Laguz.

Lore-wise, sure. Gameplay-wise, no way.

Beast and Bird Laguz are generally high-move, high-speed units, that attack physically at 1-range.

Dragon Laguz are low-move, low-speed units who can attack at 2-range, but the attacking formula varies with specific breed.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Wolfskins and Kitsune by themselves are very different units

...Eh, not really. They're both 5-move units, that promote to 6-move. Both learn Beastfoe, but also have a beast-type weakness. Their other skill is the opposite of each other, but essentially, has the same effect (+4 damage every other turn). And they pull from the same weapon "beaststone" pool. The most substantive difference is in statlines: Kaden is "the Myrmidon", while Keaton is "the Armor Knight". Which changes how they play, sure, but to not much greater degree than, say, Hinoka vs. Tsubaki.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

We've also already discussed Corrin (though not Kana who is pushed to use stones more) as a lord.

Yeah, I don't know what to think of Corrin in this regard. They're not strictly a Manakete... but neither are the Dragon Laguz, and I definitely think it's fine to rank them among the Manaketes.

Eh... if the popular call is to do all the shifters together, then I could just cope by making two separate lists. There's not enough to treat "Birdformers" as their own thing - unfortunately, they're a Tellius exclusive thus far. Also, we already ranked the Herons as Dancers.

[Cysx]

37 minutes ago, Samu_77 said:

 

Is Nosferatu Tanking in this game really this good? I've seen other people mention it but when I tested it out in my recent FE6 playthrough I remember the accuracy being fairly unreliable from Raigh, I can see it being really good on Normal Mode but can it hold up on Hard Mode?

It is quite good but there are numerous caveats. Raigh, as you said, has accuracy issues with it unless you build he and his brother's support(which is the only reasonable one he has, but it is a double accuracy one) and keep them together. As for Niime, she needs two, maybe three bought Seraph robes, but accuracy's not a concern, nor is anything else really. She does come late, though

Then Nosferatu itself is far from cheap(150G per use, 75G with the member card) and not readily available so you have to buy it in bulk in ch14, right before the first secret shop.

If you do things right it makes your unit of choice essentially invincible. So, you know, that ain't bad. Whenever people defend Sophia you can bet that they'll mention it without fail, even on HM.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Cysx

[Whisky]

Sacred Stones

Knoll is pretty weak and joins pretty late too. But he still offers good utility by being able to promote to Summoner. I’m trying to rate more based on the classes themselves rather than the individual units, and Summoner is too good to not put on top. Though, it is a bit strange to being rating it on top of a Dark Mage thread, specifically for Summoning and not for its ability to actually use Dark Magic. Still true though, Summoning utility can be really useful. Summoners also still have some Staff utility and can fight in combat if they need to. Knoll is really weak in combat and only starts with E Staves, but the class itself it’s really good in general. Any Druid would be better if they were a Summoner. 

FE7; Blazing Sword

Canas is actually pretty good, joining at a decent time at a decent level and not requiring too much investment to be able to promote. He benefits from an early promotion and should be pretty competent against most enemies after that. He can also raise up his Staff rank decently quickly. The class itself is ranked here because I think Dark Magic is relatively better in FE7 than it is in FE6. I know Nosferatu is heavier, but Flux is good enough against most enemies, and Luna is good against bosses, but most of all, well I’ll get that with FE6. Yeah it’s a solid class here.

Binding Blade

Okay so the problem is, Dark Mages here compete with Mages that deal effective damage to Wyverns. That’s a really nice thing to have. I just don’t see how Dark Mages can keep up with their competition. The unit themselves include Niime who is very good mainly for her Staff utility. Ray isn’t great. I’ve seen people talk about Nosferatu tanking, I haven’t tried it myself but that seems very risky and unreliable. Wouldn’t work for Niime either because of how frail she is.

Three Houses

Dark Mage and Dark Bishop simply aren’t very good classes. They’re rather disappointing actually. Mage is a lot better than Dark Mage due to the mastery skill and for most units, Warlock is much better than Dark Bishop due to Black Tome Faire. It’s worth it for Hubert to go Dark Bishop, but not because it’s a great class for him, but because Warlock offers him basically nothing, and Dark Bishop is barely any better. Dark Knight is a massive upgrade for Hubert, the only male class that actually offers any bonuses towards Dark Magic, not to mention high move and combat Cantó. Still though, it’s not available until pretty late, especially on Crimson Flower route. It is a pretty great class once you get it though.