Ranking each game by classes: Myrmidon/Swordmaster

[Whisky]

Hopefully the title makes sense. If I make more of these then I’ll change the title if someone suggest something better. Only games I’ve played. Basically treat this like a tentative tier list and discuss what you agree or disagree with and which games you think should move up or down. I haven’t seen this before so thought it could be interesting.

The question is how good are Myrmidons / Swordmasters in each game? In which game are they the best or the worst? Some games have reclassing and some don’t so in some games this depends on the specific characters in the class while in other games any character can choose to go into the class or something completely different.

This class has perhaps had one of the biggest ranges in quality throughout the series, while Paladin and Wyvern Rider have always been good, Swordmaster has sometimes been really strong and other times really weak.

-

Binding Blade

Echoes

Radiant Dawn

Shadow Dragon?

Sacred Stones

Blazing Sword

Path of Radiance

Three Houses

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Binding Blade of course is at top. Rutger is amazing, the class itself is really nice to have with high Skl and Spd in a game where those are important to have and a 30% Crit bonus which greatly increasing killing power in a game with tough to kill enemies. The class itself is probably at its strongest here with the highest Crit bonus of any game, but the context around it with the strong and fast enemies really make it shine.

Echoes doesn’t have the same type of Swordmasters with a Crit bonus and such, but I guess we can count the Myrmidons / Dread Fighters in that game. I’m not familiar with Echoes tier lists and such but I found Dread Fighters to be really good. Sabre was always one of my best units and the others seemed pretty good too.

I’m not very familiar with Radiant Dawn tiering either but I’ve heard Swordmasters can reach Spd thresholds that are hard to reach otherwise and are actually be pretty good here. The thing is, this isn’t a particularly good class in most FE games so they don’t need to be great here to be above the others. 

Okay now Shadow Dragon I put the ? because I really have no idea to be honest. Again most of the ones below this aren’t great so the competition isn’t very strong, and I’ve heard enemies in H5 can have really high stats, presumably including Spd, I figured they could be useful here. I haven’t played H5, I’ve only played easy mode.

Sacred Stones does have some fast enemies like the dogs that Joshua can be useful for. He doesn’t take much investment and starts with pretty good base stats and is really good at doubling basically everything. Lack of a mount or 1-2 range does bring him down though.

I could kind of go either way with Blazing Sword and Path of Radiance. Guy is pretty good early on. He’s super fast at a point when most of your units probably aren’t doubling yet, but enemies Spd doesn’t increase and actually kind of decreases when they start using more Steel so as your units gain some levels they become able to double most enemies and Guy’s Spd becomes overkill. The lack of 1-2 range of course again bringing him down.

Path of Radiance is a game with super Canto. I can’t see a foot locked sword locked unit being good for much of anything.. unless that unit has end game level stats half way through the game. Stefen is really strong. Still though, you have enough good mounted units with 1-2 range and super Canto that Stefen just can’t do much compared to them. Guy is nice to have early on when you don’t have much yet, but by the time you get Stefan, you already have multiple strong units with more going on for them than Stefan, even if he has better stats.

I honestly think Swordmasters are one of the worst classes in 3H. At least Stefan and Guy have some advantages going for them but in 3H when any character can be any class, why would you make someone a Swordmaster over much better options? Catherine is really strong but even she is probably better changing to a class that has more than 5 Move as soon as possible.

And lastly, Engage. It’s too early for me to place in the list but so far I’d say probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly not super good like in Binding Blade but it seems better than it has been in a lot of games like 3H. Movement differences being reduced helps, and easy access to 1-2 range Levin Swords that never break and are good for adding damage with chain attacks.

-

Let’s see how this works out. I thought it could be fun and might continue this for other classes afterwards. I’m interesting in seeing what people think about how good Myrmidons / Swordmasters are throughout the series. Let me know if I’m completely wrong about some of these. And feel free to include your thoughts on games I haven’t played if you want.

[Alastor15243]

While I don't think it would be fair to judge swordmasters in Fates by what Ryoma can do, given the whole reason he's good is because of his psycho-powerful sword, I do struggle to think of a better class for Ryoma to be than swordmaster, which might count for something.

[Use the Falchion]

From what I've played and remember:

Binding Blade - Top tier

Blazing Sword - Mid-tier at best, although it leans towards lower-tier. Lyn is good if we counter her, and Guy is fun, but he's about it. Karel and Karla join so late and with so many issues that they aren't good. ...and I think that's it. 

Sacred Stones - Mid-to-Low Tier. Joshua is great, but Marisa gets flak for a reason. 

Path of Radiance - I don't remember much, but we love Mia and Stephan was AMAZING Mid-Game. I'll go Mid-Tier. 

Radiant Dawn - High-Tier from what I remember. Mia with the right supports was a Dodgetank the likes of which I've rarely seen. And we've all seen Edward take down the final boss in silly videos. 

Shadow Dragon - I don't remember enough. 

Awakening - High Tier, if only because there aren't really any bad units, and due to reclassing nearly any character can be a Myrmidon/Swordmaster. Lon'qu is good though.  Say'ri is also, despite her not having nearly as many supports. 

Fates - Mid-Tier. Ryoma's good, but he's really the only good one. Hana is passable, but she's completely overshadowed by Ryoma. Hinata is best as an Oni Savage. But I guess Odin and Hisame are good enough? (Well, Hisame anyways. Odin's bad no matter what I try to do to help him out.)

Echoes - Mid-Tier, but higher than most. Like the other 3DS games, you can make pretty much any guy into a Dread Fighter, and some of them are actually good. Grey is one of my favorite characters in the franchise due to the remake, so he alone carries them up for me. 

Three Houses - Annoyingly Low-Tier. Swordmasters are good, but they aren't great. Felix is good as a Swordmaster, but in a game where you want high movement and Canto, landlocked units just can't really keep up. 

Engage - Mid-Tier at the moment for me. Lapis wasn't performing as well as I liked as a Swordmaster, so I made her a Wyvern Knight. I haven't used Kagetsu yet, but I've heard great things, so I'll do so on my current playthrough. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Just ranking what I played in the last five or so years.

1. FE2: Every Chapter 1 Villager’s best long term class in a vacuum. Not that you should feel obligated to stick with them. Having at least one merc is essential since somebody’s gotta use the thunder sword, and it shouldn’t be Alm. Celica can potentially send down some spare swords over as well, like the Shadow Sword (Demon Fighters are 100% immune to backfire in FE2). Unlike the remake, Myrmidons and Demon Fighters take no movement penalty from forests, so it’s easy for them to slip into 40 avoid cover – very relevant for Alm Act 3 and Celica Act 4. Great class, just a little overshadowed on Celica's end by how incredible FE2 falcoknights are
2. Echoes: Even before they become Dread fighters, this classline really takes off on each promotion. And they uniquely have the ability to level up indefinitely or take those stats into a new classline if you don't mind grinding them up into Bow Knight or a cracked out sage.
3. FE6: What really makes Rutger an essential project is the Western isles chapters. It's so lame to get most of the way through the map when a Berserker with 30 hit and 30 crit takes out your cavalier with a hand axe. Rutger can potentially die to the same opponent, but with a killing edge he can take them out in less rounds. He won't ORKO standard enemies forever, but if you let him use the Durandal or energy ring he can for longer. He and Fir have unusually high speed among the FE6 cast, and they can be sent alone to dodge tank and secure tricky objectives. The only real knock against this class is FE6 having no brave sword, and the whimpy performance of the light brand. Karel is underwhelming too.
4. FE3 Book 1: Having such high speed and skill matters way more in this game's calculations than FE1. Ogma and Navarre have high return on exp investment because the latter half of the game is mostly indoors maps. Heroes don't lose their promotion bonuses on those maps so they're pulling noticeably ahead of your mounted units. And they made the Kill Sword buyable even sooner at chapter 7
5. FE3 Book 2: These units are still good, but star shards let just about anybody hit the same high stats, and there are less indoors chapters for them to shine against mounted units. They're best during the mid-game, since mounted units need to dismount and lose stats to wield the Dragon Killer. 
6. FE4: I don't think Ayra's great combat ability really adds a whole lot to a playthrough that you really need. But she can give a lot of gold to the lucky groom and her kids are excellent. I don't know how Chapter 6 is doable without them. 
7. The Last Promise: There are a handful of good 1-2 range swords in this hack, including the 40 use magic damage Wind Sword. Risk is nothing special. Logan is pretty hilariously bad. Debatably the worst unit in the game because he comes at the direct cost of a much better unit. What really bumps up this rank is Tekun. Good stat spread, excellent support pool. And the Swordmaster class is the only one I noticed that got increased stat caps compared to FE7 (25 Str, 30 Skl, and 32 Spd). That speed cap lets him avoid the double from the final boss which is rare. He may be "Worse Kelik" but he supports with Kelik so it's a good excuse to use both and enjoy over the top animations.
8. FE7/FE8 Joshua and Guy have pretty outrageous base stats for the level that they join (Guy especially when playing Hard Mode), but their promotion item is shared with other classes. Raven for instance can make better use of the Hero Crest than Guy can. And my preferred promotion for Joshua is Assassin for the exp bonus, fog of war maps, and not having to field Colm/Rennac for chests. Karla and Marisa drag this ranking down a bit
9. FE9: Mia is pretty hilariously bad. Bonus EXP can fix any FE9 unit except for Rolf, but any you give Mia is taking directly away from Mist and Marcia so it's an icky proposition for Hard Mode. I'm curious how well Zihark performs in Chapter 12 with the Laguz slayer. But the answer is probably "give that to Ike". And yeah the most I've done with Stefan is having him be an early reinforcements pick for chapter 17's four map gauntlet. When there's no between-map saves, you can't be shirking on your best fighters.
10. FE1: Myrms are basically Marth without the Prf weapons. 7 mov to keep up with canto-less horse units is not awful though. Navarre and Ogma aren't exactly high tier units, but not unviable either. Kill Swords are purchaseable from chapter 12 onward but I'm pretty sure every sword-using unit can wield one at base. There's nothing that this classline can uniquely do, and their class promotion doesn't do anything besides allow you to continue leveling up. 
11. Three Houses: Not as good movement as Assassins/thieves, and there's a ton of heavily forested maps. I think Catherine's a lot of fun to use, and has few classes to be working on pre level 20, I end up with her in Swordmaster when I haven't yet certified as Brigand/Assassin. But no other unit is really looking to go the infantry sword route. 

Edit after playing FE2, 3, 6, and Last Promise. And I dropped FE4's placement by one

Edited December 14, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[ping]

New Mystery is on my "haven't played it in a good while" list, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think Swordmaster is an interesting reclassing option there. For somebody maining swords, it's a bit situational - if you don't need the extra speed to double, Hero is generally the better class - but because the class has an innate C rank in swords, anybody can use Wyrmslayers or the Levin Sword as a SM. The latter is pretty nice because it makes the Levin Sword easily available to any promoted magic user, alongside with an excellent Spd stat.

I don't think Myrmidon is as interesting for unpromoted characters. I like the class for Ryan, who can use any Spd source he can get, but otherwise, I tend to prefer Merc's better durability and +1 Str over Myrm. This might be different on the highest difficulties, though.

I'd probably put the class around the same level as in Radiant Dawn? It's good, its uses aren't just niche, but it's not necessarily game-defining. BinBla above that (Rutger is game-defining), the other GBA titles and PoR below. Not sure how I exactly I would order FE7-9, though, since "swordlock and no horse" is pretty bad in all of those.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

My impressions:

1. Echoes. Dread Fighter is a great class, with mobility, avoid, and Resistance. They get a lot of cool swords to pick from, too, with strong combat arts like Windsweep or Tigerstance, to boot.

2. Roy's Emblem. Rutger good, Fir not bad, Karel late, +30 crit great. Possibly the best class in the game, in terms of raw combat abilities. I haven't played this game much.

3. Radiant Dawn. You get a ton of Swordmaster here - Eddie is fun, Zihark and Mia are great, Lucia disappears, and Stefan is a free Sword. Being the fastest class is nice amidst low caps. Also there are buyable ranged swords and an early Brave Sword this time around.

4. Fates. Another title where Swords join Lances and Axes in having ranged options. Not very good range, but it's something. The class gets some pretty good skills and stat boosts, and Ryoma speaks for himself.

5. Awakening. Swords aren't great here, but they get good skills like in Fates, and being a Speed pair-up is always welcome.

6. Path of Radiance. Things start to turn downhill here - Swords aren't a great weapon type, but hey, at least there's Astra. Zinhark and Stefan, at least, are totally serviceable units.

7. Eliwood's Emblem. The crit boost is cut in half this time around, and non-Sword weapons have better stats now. But someone like Lloyd, for instance, is a legit terrifying boss.

8. Sacred Stones. Too many ranged enemies in general. Joshua is a fine unit, while Marisa, I maintain, is the worst unit in the game. Also, the Shamshir lacks the panache of the Wo Dao.

9. Shadow Dragon. With lancers aplenty, your Sword-users are facing WTD about half the time. Being able to get C-Swords right at reclassing is neat, I guess. Give em a forged Wyrmslayer if you feel like it.

10. Genealogy. Ayra, the Sword Twins, and Shannan are fiends in the Arena. But outside of the Arena... not so much. If you don't have a horse, staves, or special utility in this game, you're gonna have a bad time.

11. Three Houses. Get her early, and Catherine is great. That's everything good I have to say. Astra sucks this time around, and Assassin is not only easier to certify into, but also faster and more mobile. Nobody else wants to be a Swordmaster. 

[ARMADS!!!]

I think I haven't played FEs enough to make a very complete list but I'm sure of one thing: FE6 has to be the best, for sure.

Rutger really is CRAZY, I remember being able to get very close to 60% crit rate during battles without even trying (I mean, he has a 30% crit bonus because of his class, mine had and additional of 15% because of his supports with Clarine and then the rest was just because of his skill), but it's possible to increase it even MORE if you're actually trying to, as far as I know his support with Dieck can give a 10% extra and if you give him the Wo dao, that has 35% crit, he can reach OVER 100% OF CRIT RATE. it's scary once realize that doing this is as easy as to give him 2 specific supports and a sword (but even if you give him a sword that has 0% crit he'll still reach around 70% of crit rate, which's still insane!).Of course that Rutger isn't a good unit just because of the high crit rate, and he isn't the only good member of the class as well. Fir can be just or almost as good as Rutger if you're willing to train her, and Karel is great too, even if he just sticks for a chapter or two, in fact Karel in FE6 is the unit with the best growths in the entire series and is GUARANTEED to get a perfect level up (too bad that he has only one level up left when he joins you but that's likely why his growths are so high in first place, but it still is impressive). 

  If swordmasters can get better than this in any other game... Well, I don't know, I can't even imagine it.

On the contrary end, I'm far from playing every FE game but I hardly can see any swordmaster being worse than Karla, it'd be criminal (although she kiiiinda has an excuse to be bad since her whole purpouse is being a cool easter egg although since she's so fucking hard to recruit, she could at least be better than Karel, specially since lore wise she's supposed to be good), but I don't find fair how poor people tend to think of FE7's swordmasters as a whole, Guy is good and had HM bonuses, Lyn is a VERY good unit if you train her(I get it, I used to hate her on my first playthrough as well, but if you train her on the first few chapters she'll be in your top 5 or at least close to it later on, I swear) and has the exclusive advantage of being a "sword master" that is not locked to 1 range, and Karel is actually a pretty solid unit that people just tend to ignore because you have to choose between him and Harken (and Harken is better) but he still is very far from being bad.

[AnonymousSpeed]

1 hour ago, ping said:

The latter is pretty nice because it makes the Levin Sword easily available to any promoted magic user, alongside with an excellent Spd stat.

I've heard this as well, and it does give it some utility, but I'm familiar enough with the game to give it a ranking there.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I do struggle to think of a better class for Ryoma to be than swordmaster

Paladin, probably. You wouldn't want to lose sword use, but since the only weapon he uses is a sword, you're really just looking to maximize his movement.

As for my list?

Actually really good in FE6, where you actually need skill to hit and accuracy to double.

Hilarious awful in the next three games, swordmasters are trash in FE7, FE8, and FE9. These games have very forgiving stat-thresholds are dominated by 1-2 range, which swords lack.

Better than normal in Fates, though not necessarily better relative to other classes. Swords are less bad than they normally are because now none of the main three weapons have good 1-2 range anymore, but they're almost always worse than shurikens. However, they benefit a lot from vantage. It's not useful for every build, but it's critical for Nostanks, Super Ophelias, and other damage-stacking enemy-phase vantage builds.
It's a little tricky to consider Swordmaster here, because those builds essentially value Myrmidon more than Swordmaster- Super Ophelia prefers Life and Death to Astra or Swordfaire. Yet you can't have access to Swordmaster without also having access to Master of Arms. You also aren't necessarily staying in a class just because you're getting its skills, but since it's a reason you would want Myrmidon as a reclass option, I'm counting it in favor of the class.

Oh yeah, and Echoes. Dread Fighters are good but it's Echoes, so who cares?

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I don't find fair how poor people tend to think of FE7's swordmasters as a whole

Honestly, I find it understandable because Blazing Blade has a crapton of lances in the enemy ranks. It doesn't help that enemies in Blazing Blade are mostly pathetic, and thus easy to kill, which hurts swords even more because they have crappy ranged options.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Decide to make a useful graphic for how I feel these roughly align, with a few thoughts below on the games individually. I will note that I feel the tiers are right, but would need more time to really order them within each tier.

S Tier: One of the best classes in this game

Binding Blade: A unique combinations of factors make it one of the best classes in the game, despite usually being kinda bad. The universal low accuracy, and difficult bosses that might need doubles and crits to kill make the class's usually overkill speed and skill stats into something incredibly useful.

A Tier: A good class in this game

New Mystery of the Emblem: The big thing here is that late into the game their massive speed stat cap become relevant on the higher difficulties. Also the Levin Sword gives them the interesting niche of being both the fastest class to wield magic, and the only class that can use it against Lunatic Medius without dying. Finally, being always able to use Wyrm Slayer, especially in the Path of Anri arc is a useful option to have around. Admittedly, Myrmidon is useless, its only really Swordmasters where this class shines in this game.

Echoes, Shadows of Valentia: I might be ranking this one a bit low due to me never grinding my characters enough to get anyone through a full Dread Fighter loop before the post game, but even without that potential for super grinding, it still manages to be one of the better classes thanks to that mage killing utility in a game with warping witches.

B Tier: Its Ok in this game

Radiant Dawn: They are fairly usable in this game, as one of the only with games with 1-2 swords that actually use might, although it is notable that they become both buy-able, and forge-able latter than Javelins and Handaxes. This is also one of those games where having a high speed cap is relevant, but there are a lot more usable classes in this game with regard to stat caps.

Thracia 776: Unlike most games, having access to magic at 2 range, despite being a physical class, is actually a boon thanks to the +10 defense Thrones and Gates give most enemy bosses. As a combat class it tends to be fairly good in that role (with a lot of them having high PCC), and thanks to indoor maps, despite mounted units have some amazing advantages on outdoor maps, they don't dominate the entire game, although what does are staff users, and to a lesser degree mages. Thracia 776 is funny in that simply good combat isn't good enough to make a character or class good, its the utility where they really shine.

C Tier: Its bad, but there are usable examples of the class

Three Houses: In what will probably prove a trend for this tier there is a standout user of the class, in Catherine, but otherwise it is not great. I will note that it has been a while since I played this game, and I have never been very creative with reclassing, but she shows that the class isn't useless.

Fates: Once again, its Ryoma who shows this classes strengths, but in most unit's hands it tends to be really mediocre.

Shadow Dragon: For once this isn't a cases of there being a single good unit in the class. The issue is that most enemies have Lances in this game, now you can still use some forged armor-slayers, and Wyrm-slayer to do some damage in this class, but effective Axe and Lance wielder are generally much better.

Genealogy of the Holy War: Swordmaster may very well be the best unmounted class in this game, Swords are the best physical weapon type thanks to low weight and Astra/Sol/Luna are all exclusive to the class, but Genealogy is so mount focused that I couldn't describe them as good; although if you are going to use infantry its a good option. This is also helped by all maps letting you deploy all of your available units. Also Shannan is an excellent unit thanks to the Balmunk.

D Tier: One of the worst classes in this game.  Didn't really bother to order this tier, as there isn't much to say about them.

Path of Radiance: A game that is about as mount focused as Genealogy, but without the perks that class had, being closer to the mediocre to bad of most games...

Sacred Stones: This is one of those games where you just want to enemy phase with a Javelin/Handaxe, and Myrmidon/Swordmasters can't do that

Blazing Sword: Even HHM bonuses can really save Guy, even with them he falls off quick, and most of the game is another Javelin/Handaxe fest anyway.

Awakening: Its hard to find so many ways of just saying this class isn't good. Awakening is a game about breaking its mechanics, and Myrmidon/Swordmaster doesn't get you closer to doing that, and the extreme difficulty of finding 1-2 swords in this game makes it even harder on them.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

22 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

FE4: I don't think Ayra's great combat ability really adds a whole lot to a playthrough that you really need. But her kids are excellent. I don't know how Gen 2 is doable without them. I'd bet the substitutes are good as well.

Narrator: "They were not."

Seriously, the best Radney and Roddlevan are still far worse than the worst Larcei and Scathach. What Astra does to a MFer.

18 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Paladin, probably. You wouldn't want to lose sword use, but since the only weapon he uses is a sword, you're really just looking to maximize his movement.

That's what I did in Rev, paired up with Swordmaster Xander. I don't know if either one was "better" than in his base class, but each one was very good.

17 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Swordmaster may very well be the best unmounted class in this game

I would put Dancer, Thief, and the Staff classes ahead of it. Swordmasters (particularly with Astra) may have the best combat, but these other classes offer valuable utility that combat-only classes can't replicate.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would put Dancer, Thief, and the Staff classes ahead of it. Swordmasters (particularly with Astra) may have the best combat, but these other classes offer valuable utility that combat-only classes can't replicate.

Fair point on Dancer, but dancer is in a class of its own in every game, the other two it depends on the circumstances. In a Ranked Run they end up a lot better, as healers are free levelups with the return/warp staff, and thief utility is basically necessary for the kind of item management you need on the run, but in a more basic playthrough I don't see the decision as so clear cut. FE4 thief utility is odd, and difficult to really use to the fullest without a lot of micromanagement that you really don't need to bother with much outside a ranked run. Infantry healers on the other hand have the issue of having the move of armored knights, so they can't even keep up with the slow pace of the regular infantry, on top of how there are not only mounted healers to compete with, but those mounted healers aren't defenseless before promotion.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:05 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Infantry healers on the other hand have the issue of having the move of armored knights, so they can't even keep up with the slow pace of the regular infantry, on top of how there are not only mounted healers to compete with, but those mounted healers aren't defenseless before promotion.

The thing is, Infantry healers don't need to keep up with your army. They can just sit in the home castle, Warp Staff in hand, to function as half of a Return-Warp volley. There, they're already doing way more than what your infantry Swordies can accomplish. 

Also, even when they're not Warping, a "homebound healer" can help some of your worse-off units cheese their way through the Arena. Especially those who need to enter with a precise amount of HP, to pull off Miracle strats.

On 2/4/2023 at 3:05 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

FE4 thief utility is odd, and difficult to really use to the fullest without a lot of micromanagement that you really don't need to bother with much outside a ranked run.

FE4 Thieves are very much "low floor, high ceiling" units. To the player who doesn't know how to make use of them, they're gimmick units with trash combat. But for a more experienced player, they can turn thd economy on its head, and enable unit-item combos that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

Sure, they're not doing much on a more casual run. But neither are your Myrmidon types, unless you go out of your way to train them and use them in the field. Dew isn't making it far in the Arena, but at least any Gold he earns can make it to a unit who might need it more (like Ethlyn, Edain, or your Christmas Cavs). The money Ayra earns from clearing the Arena? Until you pair her up, it's staying on her.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:22 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Radiant Dawn: They are fairly usable in this game, as one of the only with games with 1-2 swords that actually use might, although it is notable that they become both buy-able, and forge-able latter than Javelins and Handaxes. This is also one of those games where having a high speed cap is relevant, but there are a lot more usable classes in this game with regard to stat caps.

Um, I thought Wind Edges never become forgeable?

[Alastor15243]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Um, I thought Wind Edges never become forgeable?

That's my recollection too.

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The thing is, Infantry healers don't need to keep up with your army. They can just sit in the home castle, Warp Staff in hand, to function as half of a Return-Warp volley. There, they're already doing way more than what your infantry Swordies can accomplish. 

The issue I am having with this argument is that most of the places you would use this sort of tactic a lot of that work can also be accomplished by just having your infantry in position for where you want to get people warped to, you are limited to getting one unit to where you want a turn this way (as the dancer can only be on one front at once, and there is only one copy of both staff, with a little wiggle room with the return band as well) and over half the work of this maneuver is relying on a cavalry staff-bot on the other end. Now doing this with just Sigurd/Seliph is probably a good thing, but unless you are doing a solo lord run (which is a bit of a niche run), you probably want some help on the other end.

Plus this sorta misses the biggest issue with those staff in generation one, as the best use of the warp and return staff are to artificially grind up Lachesis until she isn't a mostly useless infantry staff user, and its hard to count that as a mark for infantry staff users, and once you do that you can use warp on a cavalry staff bot and cut out the infantry middleman. In generation two, the twins are recruited at the right time to get a fair bit of use despite being infantry, Shannon is useful in general thanks to how busted the Balmunk is, and if you are going through the effort of having this return-warp chain, you could have also cut the middle man from the start and just get some Blaggi blood onto Nanna to have warp on your first staff cavalry directly (which works better as you can theoretically dance to get two warps off a turn).

 

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

Also, even when they're not Warping, a "homebound healer" can help some of your worse-off units cheese their way through the Arena. Especially those who need to enter with a precise amount of HP, to pull off Miracle strats.

And that level of micromanagement in the arena is kinda niche unless you are desperate for reaching the experience rank.

 

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

Sure, they're not doing much on a more casual run. But neither are your Myrmidon types, unless you go out of your way to train them and use them in the field. Dew isn't making it far in the Arena, but at least any Gold he earns can make it to a unit who might need it more (like Ethlyn, Edain, or your Christmas Cavs). The money Ayra earns from clearing the Arena? Until you pair her up, it's staying on her.

If Ayra was the only sword master in the entire game, I would probably agree with you, but all the generation two Swordmasters tend to see more use than her. Admittedly comparing these two types of uses is a bit of an apples and oranges situation.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Um, I thought Wind Edges never become forgeable?

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

That's my recollection too.

Fair enough, it seems I misremembered that detail. I don't think that would be enough to drop into the next lower tier...probably. I will have to think about it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The issue I am having with this argument is that most of the places you would use this sort of tactic a lot of that work can also be accomplished by just having your infantry in position for where you want to get people warped to, you are limited to getting one unit to where you want a turn this way (as the dancer can only be on one front at once, and there is only one copy of both staff, with a little wiggle room with the return band as well) and over half the work of this maneuver is relying on a cavalry staff-bot on the other end. Now doing this with just Sigurd/Seliph is probably a good thing, but unless you are doing a solo lord run (which is a bit of a niche run), you probably want some help on the other end.

I was envisioning doing this principally with your Lord, yes. And yeah, having "help on the other end" is desirable. But that can be any combat unit, infantry or mounted. So while your Sword infantry can contribute there, it's not as though they're fulfilling a unique niche.

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Plus this sorta misses the biggest issue with those staff in generation one, as the best use of the warp and return staff are to artificially grind up Lachesis until she isn't a mostly useless infantry staff user, and its hard to count that as a mark for infantry staff users, and once you do that you can use warp on a cavalry staff bot and cut out the infantry middleman. In generation two, the twins are recruited at the right time to get a fair bit of use despite being infantry, Shannon is useful in general thanks to how busted the Balmunk is, and if you are going through the effort of having this return-warp chain, you could have also cut the middle man from the start and just get some Blaggi blood onto Nanna to have warp on your first staff cavalry directly (which works better as you can theoretically dance to get two warps off a turn).

Huh, not sure if I agree about those being the "best" uses of those items. With Lachesis, I'm generally trying to get her through the Arena with Miracle Sword strats (she can't do much else in her join chapter, aside from healing passers by, if you want to keep her Paladins alive for the Knight Ring). Yes, a use for precise healing outside of just going for the EXP ranking. Getting the Paragon Band would help her grow faster, but that's money I could be spending on staves... decisions, decisions. Look, maybe I suck at using Lachesis optimally. But just because a tactic like Warpspam is used to train a unit up, doesn't mean it's not a strong tool in its own right, for its field effect.

Claud!Nanna is an interesting build, to be sure. It makes the worst possible Diarmuid, but B Staves on a mounted unit is certainly nice. And she can inherit Warp directly, whereas Claud!Fee will need to buy it after promoting. I do see a certain desirability, in non-ranked runs, of "cutting out thr middleman". There is an advantage of "Warp at home Castle", though, and that's due to the Return Band. If my Return Band unit is out-of-range of my field Warper, then they can get to the home castle, but not anywhere else. But with an in-castle Warper, they can head to any conquered castle, regardless of how they were sent home.

Speaking more broadly of gen II Sword infantry: the Sword Twins are pretty good for chapter 6, and I guess in the first few turns of most subsequent maps; their substitutes are absolute disappointments; and, Shannan is a legit good unit who nonetheless really gets hobbled by his poor Magic (no good ranged combat) and Resistance (Chapter 10 and Endgame are status staff city), on top of usual "being infantry in FE4" struggles.

In terms of Genealogy, I will grant that the Myrmidon family is ahead of Armor Knights, Archers, and Fighters. Also, whatever Amid's got going on. They're the best at pure combat among infantry units (aside from, say, ForCedi). I just don't think that counts for a ton in this game, unfortunately.

[Whisky]

So there seems to be a general consensus that Swordmasters were at their best in Binding Blade and their worst in Three Houses. I agree with that. I think the context around them influences their quality more than their actual properties, like if Swordmasters had 30% Crit bonus in FE7-8 they still wouldn't be nearly as good as they are in FE6. Still, I have to wonder why Swordmasters were directly nerfed after FE6.

In FE6, Swordmasters have a 30% Crit bonus, but than in FE7-8, that bonus is reduced to 15%. It's not like having a 30% boost would have made them overpowered in FE7-8, so why the nerf? It's disappointing. 30% is much more reliable for getting kills with Crits. And they are nerfed further in some other games. Swordmasters don't even get a Crit boost in Shadow Dragon! What's up with that? They do get a 10% Hit bonus though, for whatever that's worth. I don't know about Awakening or Fates.

In Path of Radiance they have a 15% bonus like in 7-8, but they can also learn Astra, which could arguably act as an extra chance to Crit, assuming you double and only need one proc from a Crit or Astra to kill. At max Skl (which isn't unreasonable at least for Stefan) it would be a 14% activation rate for Astra. Assuming the Crit is equal aside from the additional 15% in Binding Blade, this is statistically very close to the 30% bonus. Assuming 100% Hit rates, FE6's Kill Rate will always be higher than FE9's Kill Rate, but not by a lot. At Low Crit rates, neither is very reliable, and at high Crit rates, they are both very likely to kill. The biggest advantage FE6 ever has is 6.38%. With lower Hit rates, FE9 can have the advantage, though only a very small advantage, and at that point they're both less reliable. Also, none of this really matters much if units in FE9 can kill enemies without Crits. It's fun to check the math on it though.

In Radiant Dawn, Swordmasters only get a 10% bonus, but Trueblades get 20%. Skl can now go much higher for a Trueblade as well, so Stefan can have up to 20% Astra rate. This makes the Kill Rate between FE6 and FE10 very close. FE6 still wins out at high Crit values but FE10 wins out at lower Crit values since it doesn't rely on Crit as much with Astra. If Stefan's Crit rate is 50% and Rutger's is 60%, then they have equal Kill Rates.

So basically, having an extra chance to trigger Astra even if you don't Crit, is similar to having a higher Crit bonus. So the Tellius Swordmasters/Trueblades are just about as good as the ones in Binding Blade.

But then Swordmasters get nerfed again in 3H. They only have a 10% Crit bonus here. Astra can now be triggered at will instead of being RNG dependent. So it's more reliable now right? Well too bad it got nerfed badly. In Path of Radiance, Astra attacked 5 times at 50% damage per hit for a total of 250% damage, slightly lower than a Crit. In 3H, it only deals 30% per hit, for a total of 150%, half of a Crit. I could go on about how bad this is compared to much better options in that game like Hunter's Volley or Fierce Iron Fist, or how it costs twice as much durability to use than those other Arts despite being much worse, but I really don't need to. 30% damage rounded down is just too low. And it has a Hit penalty too! Astra sucks in 3H. Swordmasters suck in 3H. It's like the developers made them bad on purpose.

So I conclude that in a vacuum, Swordmasters are tied for best in Binding Blade and Radiant Dawn, then next best in Path of Radiance, and they are still worst in 3H basically.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Whisky

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

So I conclude that in a vacuum, Swordmasters are tied for best in Binding Blade and Radiant Dawn, then next best in Path of Radiance, and they are still worst in 3H basically.

If you're only talking about those four games, then I would broadly agree. But I don't think anyone here is asserting that Path of Radiance has the third-best incarnation of the class. I would at least put Echoes and Fates ahead of it (per the bad wiki, Swordmasters get +10 Avoid and Crit in Fates).

As for "worst in 3H", I do agree with that, although a big aspect is just how they're eclipsed by Assassin (itself a mid-tier class) in most regards.

Oh, @Whisky were you thinking of switching the discussion to a different class at some point? Or was that not your goal with the thread?

[Whisky]

30 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If you're only talking about those four games, then I would broadly agree. But I don't think anyone here is asserting that Path of Radiance has the third-best incarnation of the class. I would at least put Echoes and Fates ahead of it (per the bad wiki, Swordmasters get +10 Avoid and Crit in Fates).

As for "worst in 3H", I do agree with that, although a big aspect is just how they're eclipsed by Assassin (itself a mid-tier class) in most regards.

Oh, @Whisky were you thinking of switching the discussion to a different class at some point? Or was that not your goal with the thread?

I was thinking that the POR version would be the next closest to matching the killing power of Binding Blade and RD, again, in a vacuum. Not that I actually think the class is good given how ridiculous mounted units are in that game. I already shared my thoughts outside of the vacuum in my initial post.

I haven’t played Fates so they might be better there. You said they have 10% Crit. In POR they have 15% + a chance to proc Astra (might not be worth a scroll but at least Stefan starts with it), so the raw killing power seems higher, based on numbers in a vacuum, and me not knowing what skills they have in Fates.

The Echoes version seems so different that it’s hard to compare. They have no bonus to Crit rate but they take half damage from magic. They’re good, but it feels a bit like apples and oranges here.

And yeah I was planning on it, I’m just being really slow lol. I haven’t had time to post more in this thread until now and wanted to post more here before starting the next one. I think next up will be Mercenaries/Heroes.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

I haven’t played Fates so they might be better there. You said they have 10% Crit. In POR they have 15% + a chance to proc Astra (might not be worth a scroll but at least Stefan starts with it), so the raw killing power seems higher, based on numbers in a vacuum, and me not knowing what skills they have in Fates.

They get Astra in Fates, too, at level 5. Also learn Swordfaire at level 15, plus Duelist Blow (+30 Avoid on Player Phase) and Vantage via Samurai (renamed Myrmidon). It's a strong skill set, but it's also coming in a game where skills are more abundant, and dodgetanking is harder due to Fates RN. The thing is, though, while cavalry and fliers eclipse basically all other classes in Path of Radiance, that's not so much the case in Fates, where the Pair-Up system helps less mobile classes get around. Also, PoR gives Swordmasters almost no ranged options, while in Fates... they're not great, but they exist.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

The Echoes version seems so different that it’s hard to compare. They have no bonus to Crit rate but they take half damage from magic. They’re good, but it feels a bit like apples and oranges here.

Perhaps we should reconsider them in the next bunch, then, with Mercenaries and Heroes? Even if they differ from game to game, wasn't the point to look at each class's ability within the context of its respective game? So, maybe an Awakening Swordmaster beats an Echoes Dread Fighter. But that doesn't really matter, if the Dread Fighter is the second-best class in Echoes, while Swordmaster is second-worst in Awakening. Not saying any of this is the case, just doing a "for example".

Also, comparing apples to oranges is eminently reasonable. I do it every time someone asks me for my favorite kind of fruit.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

And yeah I was planning on it, I’m just being really slow lol. I haven’t had time to post more in this thread until now and wanted to post more here before starting the next one. I think next up will be Mercenaries/Heroes.

Looking forward to it!

[Whisky]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Perhaps we should reconsider them in the next bunch, then, with Mercenaries and Heroes? Even if they differ from game to game, wasn't the point to look at each class's ability within the context of its respective game? So, maybe an Awakening Swordmaster beats an Echoes Dread Fighter. But that doesn't really matter, if the Dread Fighter is the second-best class in Echoes, while Swordmaster is second-worst in Awakening. Not saying any of this is the case, just doing a "for example".

Yes that’s right. How good the class is relative to other classes in that game basically. I already posted my thoughts on that in my initial post and feel that a general consensus has been reached regarding that.

I just thought it would be fun to also look at how their abilities have changed throughout the games. I also wanted to calculate out which would be more likely between FE6’s higher Crit bonus or PORs Crits+Astra. Turns out they’re very similar.

But yeah, even if Swordmasters in POR had a 50% Crit bonus, it wouldn’t really be enough to compete with the mounted units dominating that game.

And yeah Dread Fighters might fit in better with Heroes. We can rank them twice, no reason not to.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

They get Astra in Fates, too, at level 5. Also learn Swordfaire at level 15, plus Duelist Blow (+30 Avoid on Player Phase) and Vantage via Samurai (renamed Myrmidon). It's a strong skill set, but it's also coming in a game where skills are more abundant, and dodgetanking is harder due to Fates RN. The thing is, though, while cavalry and fliers eclipse basically all other classes in Path of Radiance, that's not so much the case in Fates, where the Pair-Up system helps less mobile classes get around. Also, PoR gives Swordmasters almost no ranged options, while in Fates... they're not great, but they exist.

Oh I see, they get a lot of skills in Fates. I haven’t played it yet (I would love for them to make 3ds games available on Switch) but it’s always so fascinating to hear about build ideas for different units in that game. It seems really interesting.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also, comparing apples to oranges is eminently reasonable. I do it every time someone asks me for my favorite kind of fruit.

Heh. Yeah good point.

 

[samthedigital]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:16 PM, Whisky said:

Path of Radiance is a game with super Canto. I can’t see a foot locked sword locked unit being good for much of anything.. unless that unit has end game level stats half way through the game. Stefen is really strong. Still though, you have enough good mounted units with 1-2 range and super Canto that Stefen just can’t do much compared to them. Guy is nice to have early on when you don’t have much yet, but by the time you get Stefan, you already have multiple strong units with more going on for them than Stefan, even if he has better stats.

I think that the Japanese exclusive maniac mode changes things a little if you want to include that. His stats are far more relevant considering that there isn't an infinite amount of bonus experience to dump into random footlocked units to help with side objectives. I would definitely value him over Guy, and I'd probably value him over Joshua too, but I don't have enough experience with Sacred Stones to say for sure.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It just occurred to me that mentioning FE1 or 3 might be inappropriate since they're called Mercenaries, not myrmidons. But when I make a mistake like that, I double down. I wanna talk about how Myrmidons in FE3 are real good, to the point where they may be a contender for the top spot. I can only speak from experience on Book 1, but it's a night and day difference from FE1:

• First off, the Attack speed calculations. In the original game, if your attack speed was at least a point higher, you double. Now you need 4 more, and player/enemy stats have barely been adjusted. Doubling enemies is now something associated with faster, sword wielding units rather than being something that everybody can do with little regard for weapon selection.
• Skill is also 1% crit per point, unlike the original where it was combined with luck and divided by 2. Enemies have 0 luck, so in general your units are enjoying single digit crit rates from the beginning, but Myrmidons really benefit from this change due to their double digits Skill at base level
• Swords are better than lances. That was generally the case in the original, but it's really felt here now that weapon weight matters a great deal more. The main draw of lances is access to the Knight Killer and Javelins, but neither is as game changing as the kill sword, armor slayer, thunder sword, or dragon killer. Even Gradivus can only be used for two of the remaining four chapters.
  • The Kill Sword is also purchasable sooner. Chapter 7 from 12. Though when you account for missing chapters, let's say it's three sooner. Money is as plentiful as ever, so everybody should have one. The killer lance is first available in chapter 13
• Mounted units are way nerfed in FE3. To use their sword, they must dismount, and make real decisions between combat and movement. Indoor maps force them to dismount into 6 mov units with no access to lances. They're strictly worse than mercenaries on these maps. And indoor chapters make up 6 of the 20 chapters (8 if we count maps where big chunks of it are indoor terrain that require you to spend a turn dismounting in order to enter). 
  • Furthermore, mounted units don't keep any of their promotion gains when dismounted. Heroes do. Fliers especially lose an alarming amount of stats due to these mechanics. 
• The Miracle Sword (Mercurius) is no longer Marth-Locked. And you can use the Hammerne staff on it unlike the original. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Whisky]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:25 AM, samthedigital said:

I think that the Japanese exclusive maniac mode changes things a little if you want to include that. His stats are far more relevant considering that there isn't an infinite amount of bonus experience to dump into random footlocked units to help with side objectives. I would definitely value him over Guy, and I'd probably value him over Joshua too, but I don't have enough experience with Sacred Stones to say for sure.

Yeah, you're probably right. I haven't played Maniac Mode. I've heard that it makes enemies more bulky and adds more of them. If most units have a harder time killing enemies than Stefan's advantages would definitely shine more. It's a bit hard to compare between him and Guy and Joshua since they all sort of fill slightly different roles.

 

Guy is one of your stronger units early on when most of your units can't double yet but falls off by the time your other units are leveled up and promoted.

 

Joshua lacks 1-2 range but there are fast enemies in Sacred Stones that not a lot of units can double, especially the dogs, so Joshua has his uses throughout. Apparently people have found him useful even in LTCs so 1-2 range doesn't hurt him too badly.

 

Stefan starts with really high base stats for his joining time, and combined with his Crit bonus and Astra give him a lot of killing power. Probably overkill power in the English version, but on Maniac Mode it could probably help out a lot.

 

11 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

It just occurred to me that mentioning FE1 or 3 might be inappropriate since they're called Mercenaries, not myrmidons. But when I make a mistake like that, I double down. I wanna talk about how Myrmidons in FE3 are real good, to the point where they may be a contender for the top spot. I can only speak from experience on Book 1, but it's a night and day difference from FE1:

• First off, the Attack speed calculations. In the original game, if your attack speed was at least a point higher, you double. Now you need 4 more, and player/enemy stats have barely been adjusted. Doubling enemies is now something associated with faster, sword wielding units rather than being something that everybody can do with little regard for weapon selection.
• Skill is also 1% crit per point, unlike the original where it was combined with luck and divided by 2. Enemies have 0 luck, so in general your units are enjoying single digit crit rates from the beginning, but Myrmidons really benefit from this change due to their double digits Skill at base level
• Swords are better than lances. That was generally the case in the original, but it's really felt here now that weapon weight matters a great deal more. The main draw of lances is access to the Knight Killer and Javelins, but neither is as game changing as the kill sword, armor slayer, thunder sword, or dragon killer. Even Gradivus can only be used for two of the remaining four chapters.
  • The Kill Sword is also purchasable sooner. Chapter 7 from 12. Though when you account for missing chapters, let's say it's three sooner. Money is as plentiful as ever, so everybody should have one. The killer lance is first available in chapter 13
• Mounted units are way nerfed in FE3. To use their sword, they must dismount, and make real decisions between combat and movement. Indoor maps force them to dismount into 6 mov units with no access to lances. They're strictly worse than mercenaries on these maps. And indoor chapters make up 6 of the 20 chapters (8 if we count maps where big chunks of it are indoor terrain that require you to spend a turn dismounting in order to enter). 
  • Furthermore, mounted units don't keep any of their promotion gains when dismounted. Heroes do. Fliers especially lose an alarming amount of stats due to these mechanics. 
• The Miracle Sword (Mercurius) is no longer Marth-Locked. And you can use the Hammerne staff on it unlike the original. 

It's interesting hearing about how different the older FEs are, but also are similar they are in some ways. I haven't played anything before 6 yet. Maybe I'll get around to it at some point. I'll need to find translations to understand anything though.