Ranking each game by class: Cavaliers/Paladins

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The phrase Hold Your Horses is a bannable offense here. Final Warning.

Earlier in the year we were going through classic Fire Emblem classes to determine how well they perform game to game. Just a fun discussion to have in the wake of a brand new Fire Emblem game having just released. You can come at this question any way you like, use any justifications you like. Include any related class that you feel is appropriate (in this case, Great Knights) The goal is to share some perspectives and maybe broaden our understandings of the games in the process. I contacted @Whisky and he gives his blessing to continue those threads so that we can wrap up some of the juicier topics before putting the discussion to bed until, I dunno, the next Fire Emblem game releases? Here are links to previous discussions:

• Myrmidons / Swordmasters
• Mercenaries / Heroes
• Thieves / Assassins
• Fighter / Warrior
• Brigand / Pirate / Berserkers
• Archers / Snipers
• Nomads / Bow Knights
• Armor Knights / Generals

And here are my own personal rankings. Of games that I've played since 2017. And I try to come at it from a perspective aggregating all skill levels, from the lowest to the highest. If a class carries a novice / uninformed player, then that's as significant to me as a class that is pushing an LTC to its absolute limit.

Spoiler

1. FE9: Canto is back and better than ever. FE9 is also the rare game to reward you directly for clearing maps faster, though the extra bonus exp won’t make or break your run. Every horse in FE9 is good at worst, all the way down to Makalov. It’s a very enemy phase focused game with high enemy density and low enemy strength, but canto allows you to fluidly adjust your wall of units to meet the situation. Cavs also get to enjoy the Knight Ward accessory. Maybe trade swap that around to someone about to level up.
2. FE7: Sain and Kent’s auto leveled stats if you skipped Lyn’s tale are kind of crap, but being level 5 gets them close to their promotion. The Knights crest availability is improved from FE6. HHM removes one from the game, but it’s still a better situation to have two by the halfway point. All FE7 promotion gains were heavily nerfed from FE6, but Paladin saw the least reduction comparatively, which pulls them further ahead on stats. I also personally rate FE7 Marcus just a bit higher than Seth and either version of Titania, because FE7’s early crew is a ton of units that don’t become amazing with investment. Except of course the other horse, Lowen. So don't feel bad about feeding him kills. His axe access is also pretty underrated – only having to share the good stuff with Hector.
3. FE8: Seth has earned his memetic status. I think some underrated features that keep him viable to the end game are his high HP growth (Necrodragons and the final boss pierce your defenses completely, and FE8’s dodge tanks get absolutely ruined by Stone), and starting with A rank with both weapons. So even if you’re conservative with your Seth usage, you have an easy time getting him whichever S rank you prefer. Usually the Sword, considering how few relevant FE8 units can comfortably reach max rank in swords. Franz is a no brainer project. And both he and Seth really only have each other as great support options. Forde and Kyle take some effort to come online, but no more than Noah/Treck on a No Grinding run. I would never advise raising Amelia and don’t have any experience with her as a cav. My only issue with cavs is that there’s a lot of rough terrain/outdoors maps. So they may be the ones in need of a Rescue rather than serving as a vehicle for others.
4. FE4: Maybe it’s been lost underneath their reputation, but FE4’s horses were intentionally balanced to be worse fighters than infantry units. Whether or not that level of balanced was achieved is certainly up for debate. If the worst result we get is Noish or un-optimized Dermot, that’s still pretty good with the right investment of items. They still make it to every fight, they still serve as body blockers that could surround your healer or Thief after attacking, and they can still retreat behind a wall of units when the upcoming enemy phase looks dangerous. Canto isn’t just about saving turns, it’s about flexibility in how you drag and drop your units. Heck Gen 2’s general absence of cavs will remind you that great combat isn’t everything. Risks need to be managed more closely when everybody is forced to dodge bolting. FE4’s road tiles and invisible barriers to flying units also ensure that horses maintain the best mobility. Can’t say that about cavs in any other game.
5. FE6: The invention of Rescue grants these units a lot of utility that can excuse their iffy stats. Allen and Lance take a lot of work to become great fighters, but you wouldn’t be going far out of your way to check if they get a good level up or two on the maps where you have no choice but to use them. The brigand spam lets them feasibly reach Killing Edge by the western isles, and Javelin access let them be versatile multi phase units. If they turn out good, great. If not, bench them or use them exclusively for Rescue dropping. Percival is still coming, and he will always be great (FE6 is also the one GBA game that lets you attain multiple S ranks, granting him some flexibility in Regalia) One problem with raising multiple cavs is the Knights Crests. The second one is after two thirds of the game. AFTER Percival. So Cav #2 is waiting long enough that he potentially caps level early. I’m also not particularly impressed with FE6 Marcus. His E rank in Axes prevents him from using the Halberd by chapter 4 unless you’re willing to play slow and/or feed more kills to him than other units.
6. The Last Promise: Choosing to exclude Siegfried and Shon since they are Lord characters with unique class names/animations. Corben starts out unremarkable and you got to invest pretty heavily into him in order to keep him relevant up through the end of the game. Eduardo is better on paper, but he's up against harder foes, and he doesn't maintain any exp you got for him during chapter 8. He's packing better growths and a fun personal weapon. Unfortunately Fun is no substitution for Good. Howard is probably the only Good Cav unit. Starts out great but scales pretty awkwardly into late game due to some low growths and having especially low Skill. Leveraging his high axe rank may compound his accuracy issue. He joins in the Wyvern chapter, so handing him Levion's Dragon Axe is a big help - I don't think you fight wyverns again after this map and he's the only one with the axe rank to use it. Levion is pretty essential in chapter 12, but your units should be nearly caught up by the time he rejoins in chapter 24.
7. FE11: The introduction of weapon ranks really hurt these guys, as Cain and Abel are no longer two or three level ups from being able to use the early Silver lance and Silver sword. Hilarious that you hand Hardin his Silver Sword only to discover he can’t use it in this version. But really the biggest loser is Cain not being able to throw a freaking javelin. Any reclassed unit without some existing lance rank will run into the same problem. Still, the new weapon weight calculations and generous hit rates make lances better than ever. On top of the possibility of forged ridersbanes and the new dragonpike. One rounding a wyvern (much less one shotting) would have been unthinkable in previous versions of this game.
8. FE1: Great availability and plentiful Knights Crests keep the usual Cain, Abel, or Hardin as good exp dumps. Worth mentioning that those three are all packing less base HP than in later versions, but they didn’t need the buff to begin with. This is the only archanea game without Trading, so lining up several cavs passing around the same knight killer on a line of enemy cavs is not feasible here. Other than that I can’t think of any real issues. Good units in an easy game. None of them are top 10 units, but Hardin’s top 15 maybe?
9. Three Houses: Not particularly bad, just begging for a use justification on Maddening. In that setting, any physical unit would sooner consider being a wyvern, or a class with better ORKO benchmarks and long term prospects like the Sniper or Grappler. Ferdinand and Sylvain's Swift Strikes performance gets better with Lancefaire but it's far from overpowering. And neither Cavalier nor Paladin grants a class mastery worth equipping. Cavs have an annoying -10 speed growth with no notable bonuses to make up for it, and you need to dismount to avoid a speed penalty. The case for Paladin, much like Bow Knight, becomes much stronger on lower difficulty settings - when ORKO benchmarks can be naturally reached on your stats alone and you can let the enemies crash into you. The non Golden Deer routes have Impenetrable Wall on a grounded battalion. The best way to get use out of that gambit is on a Cav that can approach some allies that already attacked, and then canto away to not immediately become the juiciest target. So there’s the one thing cavs can do better than fliers.
10. FE2. Not an attractive class path for your villagers, but the four that you get are all good in the short term. There are just not enough lances to go around on Alm’s route (Only 3 before the final battle for your 7 lance wielders + potential Villagers). If you’re opposed to grinding out that last level on Clive for his promotion, it’s totally fine in FE2. He can ORKO cavaliers with the ridersbane on his base speed and base class, unlike his remake counterpart. No need to stick with him since it’s highly unlikely he will maintain that speed lead against enemy paladins. But Mathilda certainly will, and her 10 Res lets her soak up Witches and Arcanists whom Clive is allergic to. Zeke and Mysen are higher level than your other units would be so they’ll fit in your team just fine as well.
11. Echoes: Not much has changed for Cavs that aren’t the case for every other physical class. Forging and newly added stat boosters can help them hit benchmarks they otherwise wouldn’t hit. And if you “bench” them, you can teach them Swap so that they’re still helping your mobility-challenged units into position every turn (hey a reason for Atlas to exist). I’m happy to see Efficiency Players come around on Clive, but the Why really just comes down to being able to forge the ridersbane, and leveraging his level lead on Mathilda so that he hits Gold Knight sooner. For non efficiency players it’s worth remembering that Armor knights can use the Ridersbane too, and can reach the ridersbane one shot easier than Clive. Even if Clive is a better unit now, Zeke and Mycen struggle to keep up with the higher exp gain and stat growths your long term units have been enjoying. Overall I think the remake and the original average out to the same ranking.
12. FE3 Book 1 & 2: The Dismount mechanic single handedly balanced the classes, which is another way of saying this is the worst performance for Archanean mounted units ever. Lances are remarkably bad in this game and you must dismount to use swords for better combat, forcing you to drop to 6 mov the next turn. Paladins lose all their promotion stat gains when dismounted. And of course indoor maps force you to dismount. In that setting, dismounted horse units are just 6 Mov mercenaries. If we had to split both books into separate rankings, Book 2 would be higher, as there are just less indoors maps, and Sirius is better than any cav from Book 1. The average Book 2 cav is pretty bad though, especially the three you start with.

If I put this into a tier list, #1 is S tier, #2-4 is A tier, 5-11 is B tier, and 12 is C tier

Edit: Added The Last Promise to the list and moved Three Houses above FE2

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[samthedigital]

Depending on how loose your definition of Paladin is I'd put FE4 above FE9 because as good as Paladins are in FE9 they're not the best class in that game, and they don't hold a candle to FE4 Sigurd/Seliph/Leif. Otherwise I don't have much to add besides some of the games that you haven't listed.

Engage: I don't have enough experience with Three Houses, but I'd have Engage Paladins around there near the bottom. Vander is pretty good early on, but he falls off really quickly. Similar to 3H there's no reason to reclass to Paladin once we can reclass everyone either. If Wolf Knights fall under the Paladin umbrella then I'd have them at around a B tier because there aren't any other physical classes with a good 1-2 range weapon.

FE5: It's probably another B tier showing. They're fantastic for outdoor maps, but it's balanced by not being able to mount indoors and having bad combat because they're then locked to swords. Fergus is the only real exception to the rule.

Conquest: It's tough; it's an A tier class until chapter 19 where it starts to drop off... Xander, Silas, and Jakob are all good showings, but eventually they want to reclass. It's also a great backup class, and Shelter is always nice to pick up.

FE10: It's always a mess to rate units in this game, but maybe slightly below FE6? Titania is an amazing unit and has good availability. Oscar as a decent unit hindered by his speed cap. Geoffrey and Kieran have a similar dynamic to Titania and Oscar, but they're only available for a few chapters. Micaiah's group might be the only one without a good Paladin, but it's been a while.

[lenticular]

9 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The phrase Hold Your Horses is a bannable offense here. Final Warning.

Neigh, lad. You can shout until you're hoarse, but you need to realise that we're all just horsing around here and get down off your high horse.

Ahem. Sorry, don't know what came over me there. Anyway. Not oging to try to rank these in order or anything, but some general thoughts:

Three Houses Paladins are actually pretty good. They have high movement, canto, dismount, and hardly any effective weaponry among enemy ranks. Their only real problem is that Wyverns exist and do basically everything that paladins do except better and flying. But as someone who typically plays highlander style (only one of each end-game) class, I do appreciate what paladins have to offer.

Engage Paladins are incredibly underwhelming, but its cavalry options are pretty cool. Wolf Knights and Royal Knights offer cavalry options that haven't really existed before, and Great Knight is also a viable option. It's just a shame that Paladin doesn't really bring anything notable to the party and very much feels like the poor relation here.

In Shadows of Valentia, when I'm deciding what classes to choose for my villagers, cavalier is one of the two options (alongside soldier) that I don't think I've ever chosen and doubt that I ever will. That pretty much says everything about how I feel about the class here.

Radiant Dawn is especially weird when it comes to how its Paladins are distributed. The Greil Mercenaries get 2, the Dawn Brigade gets only 1 (and a pretty terrible one at that), but then the Crimean Royal Knights get 4. 2-3 and 3-9 are both Paladin central, with paladins constituting 4/6 and 4/7 of your units there. So we have several that are all bunched up together (Geoffrey, Astrid, Makalov, Kieran), one who's very underpowered (Fiona), one who's late-game filler (Renning), and two that are in the overpowereed group where pretty much everyone is great (Oscar and Titania). I'm really not sure how to judge the class line as a whole.

Awakening Cavaliers and Paladins aren't very impressive. It comes in somewhere around about "oh right, that exists". It's been a while since I last played Awakening, but I had to go and look up what skills the class line gets, and having done so, I'm not surprised. Nothing there is especially inspiring. Sully and Stahl are both perfectly servicable units, but neither are setting the world alight. If you want to count Great Knights, then Frederick is good, though.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Depending on how loose your definition of Paladin is I'd put FE4 above FE9 because as good as Paladins are in FE9 they're not the best class in that game, and they don't hold a candle to FE4 Sigurd/Seliph/Leif. Otherwise I don't have much to add besides some of the games that you haven't listed.

Definitions are ultimately up to the person ranking, whether they include this or that class. FE4's horses aren't even called Cavaliers to begin with, so we have no choice but to interpret. I think a good criteria is "has a horse and at least one of: Sword/Lance/Axe access before promotion". I always exclude unique Lord classes, even though Sigurd's class is basically what you'd expect of a "Paladin". I know off the top of my head he is missing those Mag and Res boosts that Noish and Alec get when they promote. I fully agree that him alone would bump FE4 up to FE9 immediately. Master Knights and troubadours I would exclude because they're not cavalier-like before promotion. As well as mounted archers since those were covered in a previous thread for bow knights.

Edit: Oops forgot to rank The Last Promise. Rom Hack discussion is also welcome!

Edited September 22, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[SnowFire]

Game-breaking

1. FE9 - Nothing needs to be said here.  Titania, Oscar, Kieran, etc. are all godlike units.  I don't recall anti-cav weapons being THAT common either (and they're inaccurate meaning they won't hit an Earth-Supported Oscar anyway).

Excellent

2. FE7 - Especially if you do Lyn mode first (which most players do), Kent & Sain with a Javelin can solo the game if you want.  If you care about rank, high move helps you complete chapters quickly.  And even if you just care about beating the game, high move is handy for stuff like saving Zephiel.  Cav weakness is just 2x in US FE7, too.  Helped by FE7's fliers having some weaknesses rather than the gods they are in some games.

3. FE8 - Seth is obviously bananas, but that's Seth being good moreso than the class.  But otherwise, usual Javelin destruction hype.  I don't feel FE8 pressures you on movement all THAT often, although it certainly comes up (hatching Gorgon eggs map, e.g.), so a bit worse than FE7 on that front.  I think Paladin is indeed probably Amelia's best class - the stat boost from General isn't really enough IMO unless you're also saccing the Boots for her.

Good

4. Three Houses - Cavalier & Paladin are good classes!  Mobility is VERY handy in 3H for all sorts of builds, leaving infantry in the dust a lot.  The only reason Cavs are merely in Good is solely because 3H includes the even more busted Wyvern-line, which does something similar-but-better for many characters, but the existence of a +99 Sword doesn't mean the +97 Sword sucks.  The speed penalty is annoying but not actually THAT bad, especially on Maddening - you can set up for OHKOs anyway with Swift Strikes or a Brave Lance making the speed just not that important.

5. FE10 - Stat caps are low enough that they have a notable hole compared to FE9.  Gold Knights cap at 32 Spd IIRC?  And they're competing with RD nonsense in the Tower.  Fiona also sucks for Dawn Brigade maps.  Geofrey is good although his map seems designed around him being able to solo it so idk how much credit he gets there.  And while the Greil Merc Paladins are certainly good, the Greil Mercs can crush with a lot of options.  Solid but not game-breaking.

6. New Mystery of the Emblem - Luke I recall being good, although stat caps are strict in this game.  High mobility is nice since the difference between high and low move characters can be pretty stark.

7. FE6 - Usable enough, and FE6 has annoyingly big maps, for all that it doesn't tend to pressure you to move fast all that often.  HM late-recruited Perceval is badass as usual.

Meh

8. Fates - Silas & Peri aren't bad or anything, just Fates does have some scary stat-check bosses and so the mild stat hit is notable.  That said, Cavalier taxis are helpful in a system with Pair-up.  Xander is busted but is busted in a lot of classes.

9. Awakening - Anybody is usable in Awakening, but it's definitely a game where I prefer flyers as taxi units, since they can always just switch to the other unit if archers are around, and fliers get busted stuff like Galeforce and Lancefaire.

10. Shadow Dragon - I don't really recall SD well enough to say for sure, but I guess high move does help in races to block forts?  Usable I suppose.

Bad

11. Echoes - The class balance in Echoes is actually pretty good, but I feel Gold Knight is probably the second-worst line after Baron.  It just doesn't have any tricks other than high move. making it the most replaceable.  Flat can't move through watery terrain, which comes up sometimes.  If you are XP-focusing than just having a single super-unit charging ahead and letting enemies kill themselves against it, then sure, GK has a purpose, I suppose, but meh.  (And yes, I say this despite the high hype for FE7 units being able to do something similar, but that's in a game where that's what every unit does rather than all the cool stuff other Echoes class lines have, like high range.) Very few people hype turning Villagers into Gold Knights, for example.  And the usual mobility edge is dulled when Dread Fighters have 7 move, better speed, and a really useful passive in the magic-damage halving.

12. Engage - Not a very useful passive, only +1 move vs. infantry, just one weapon type, not particularly impressive stats.  The +1 move is still handy, of course, so not totally useless, but definitely a bottom-half class.  The score would go up if Great Knights are included, of course.

Edited September 22, 2023 by SnowFire

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 9/22/2023 at 1:13 AM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The phrase Hold Your Horses is a bannable offense here. Final Warning.

Why don't you hold these nuts in your mouth?

Spoiler

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Walnuts_-_whole_and_open_with_halved_kernel.jpg/1200px-Walnuts_-_whole_and_open_with_halved_kernel.jpg

That was inappropriate, I apologize.

Edited September 24, 2023 by AnonymousSpeed

[Shadow Mir]

46 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

I don't recall anti-cav weapons being THAT common either (and they're inaccurate meaning they won't hit an Earth-Supported Oscar anyway).

Also, effective weapons suck in PoR, being only x2 effectiveness. Remember this, it's gonna be on the test. And it's liable to come up again in these threads.

46 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

FE10 - Stat caps are low enough that they have a notable hole compared to FE9.  Gold Knights cap at 32 Spd IIRC?  And they're competing with RD nonsense in the Tower.  Fiona also sucks for Dawn Brigade maps.  Geofrey is good although his map seems designed around him being able to solo it so idk how much credit he gets there.  And while the Greil Merc Paladins are certainly good, the Greil Mercs can crush with a lot of options.  Solid but not game-breaking.

They depend on the unit. Kieran caps at only 31, Oscar and Geoffrey cap at 32, the other Gold Knights cap at 33. Fiona and Astrid have the fortune of having caps of 34 or higher, ironically... not that it takes away from cavalry units clearly being downgraded from their Path of Radiance highs.

 

[ping]

Dark Dragon - Kain, Abel, and Hardin are all very, very good, although a lot of their quality comes from just having excellent stats. Their Paladin promotion basically just gives them +1 Move and even more levels to grow, since they're likely to out-stat Paladin bases, especially if they aren't using the first Knight Crest. However, the class still comes with very high movement (9-->10, compared to 5-7 on most non-mounted classes, and 8-->10 for flyers) and access to both swords and lances. The former is great because of the low weight, the latter is great for Javelins and Silver Lances, which are buyable earlier than Silver Swords.

It's worth mentioning that the three terrible Cavs (Matthis, Roshe, Biraku/Vyland) are actually salvaged to a degree by their class. I used Roshe in my run, and although he suddenly became Spd-blessed during the map before he promoted, the promotion would've raised his Spd to an acceptable 11, anyway.

The main downside of the class is that Horseslayers are somewhat common on enemies, so that's something you have to look out for. Still, excellent class, with what I would consider to be the best characters (except maybe Mars himself) in the game in it.

Binding Blade - The unpromoted Cavs are less impressive than in FE1, although Allen and Lance still are solid. However, two of the five best characters are prepromoted Paladins - Marcus and Percival - which makes this class line the only one with more than one representative at the very top of the pecking order (...although I think Milady would win most polls for the best unit in the game). Like in FE1, Horseslayers are a big threat, although I think they're overall less common. Also like in FE1, Cavs/Paladins make good use of their great weapon selection, between weapon triangle control, Marcus being the best Hammer user, and just being able to choose between the accuracy of Iron Swords and the greater power of other weapons.

Blazing Blade - Marcus is the best unit in the game; Lowen is very good, even though his Str is a bit low in the lategame; Sain and Kent are both fantastic characters if you go through Lyn Mode, and still very good if you don't. The only Cav/Paladin that isn't really good is Isadora, and even she is a pretty decent filler. I'd say they're the best class in this one.

Sacred Stones - Seth is Seth, but the Cavs only range from middling (Forde) over decent (Kyle) to good (Franz). Unless you weigh Seth's Sethness a lot, I think this is one of the weaker showings of the class, even though it's still one of the best.

Path of Radiance - We're back to the best character(s) - Marcia on Hard, maybe Jill on Maniac - not being Cavs/Paladins. Titania does trample the earlygame until Marcia takes over, and I think Oscar and Kieran are generally considered to be their own class below Marcia/Jill/Titania/Reyson, but above everybody else. Astrid and Makalov are both pretty good despite joining underleveled, too.

Radiant Dawn - Probably the worst showing thus far..? Titania is, again, very good, but she doesn't have any segment of the game to trample like she did in PoR. Oscar is honestly pretty underwhelming, Fiona is a meme, and the Crimean Knights are kinda tough to judge because they're mostly off doing their own stuff. I don't think I use them a lot when they join up with the rest.

Shadow Dragon - I honestly don't remember too well. I think it's overshadowed by Dracoknight once you field mostly promoted classes?

New Mystery - I don't think the class is too bad, but I still tend to swap Luke in particular out of it and into Mercenary. I think Rody with his Lance rank is best kept in it at least until promotion? It's also an interesting swap for Catria in particular, since she can make use of the Lady Sword without losing her Lance rank that way. Still, I don't think the class is quite as impressive in DSFE.

--

I guess my overall ranking would be BlaBla > FE1 > PoR = SacSto > BinBla > RD > DSFE. But since the class is so excellent in many games, I'm not going to fight over it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Opening disclaimer: What will I be counting as a "Cavalier" or "Paladin"? Basically, let's say any non-Armored, non-Lord class that is Cavalry, does not use Staves or Magic of any sort, and does not use Bows as their primary weapon type. So, some instances formally called "Paladin" are excluded (i.e. Paladin Ethlyn, Bow Paladin Astrid), whereas some without any such title are included (i.e. Gold Knight Mycen, Duke Knight Quan).

With that out of the way - Cavalier tends to be among the strongest unpromoted classes in every game. And Paladin is a class that can carry you from the earlygame, to the midgame, all the way to the Endgame itself. So this will be a category with some steep competition. That said, how would I rate their appearances? Well...

Spoiler

11. Awakening. They have great movement, which is nice, but neither Stahl nor Sully is super-impressive. And I'm not counting Frederick, since he's a Great Knight. No Rescue command, and no Canto, makes this an inferior outing for them.

10. Echoes. I'm currently doing an "Oops, all cavalry!" playthrough on Alm's side, and it's going... okay. Basically just a "big move with Lances" class. None of the default cavalry you get are "bad", but neither are any of them game-breaking. And it's an uncommon Villager pick for a reason.

9. Radiant Dawn. There are a few factors working for cavalry here, like super-Canto and Rescue. But also a number against, like ledges and indoor penalties. They run the gamut, from "Top 5 Titania", to "Bottom 5 Fiona". Kieran and Oscar are pretty good, but honestly, most cavalry are just worse than last time. Pretty balanced overall.

8. Fates. This marked a big improvement of their previous appearance, with Elbow Room for extra damage, plus the Shelter option. Silas is good on all three routes, Peri has her uses, and Xander is among the best Nohr has to offer. Still limited by Fateswakening design, but not bad at all.

7. Three Houses. "Cavalier" is an interesting Intermediate choice, as it gives a bad mastery skill (Desperation), but is also the only 7-move Canto class available at those levels. I like it on Sylvain, Ferdinand, and Leonie, after getting Death Blow. Or any Frozen Lance unit, after getting Fiendish Blow. "Paladin" may only be Advanced, but it can hold up all the way to the Endgame. It's my favored class for Dimitri, and a great choice for Bernadetta or any of the Swift Strikers. Getting Move +1 from Riding is nice, as is super-Canto, although Dismounting is usually irrelevant for this class. 

6. Shadow Dragon. Jagen is vital on the higher difficulties, while Cain and Abel can be solid through the whole game. Plenty of Cavs suck here, but even then, you can reclass your "pet projects" into the class. And what's more appealing than entering the only 9-move, multi-weapon first-tier class?

5. FE6. Although likely the weakest of their GBA showings, it's still an elite class here. Marcus is needed for earlygame, Alan and Lance rock, and Perceval is a lategame monster. And even when they're not the ones fighting, they can Rescue-carry Roy, Rutger, or your support unit of choice to wherver they need to be.

4. Genealogy. Even not counting Sigurd, Seliph, or any staff-mounties here, cavalry are nonetheless great in this game. High move and Canto are a must on these big maps. Quan and Lex shine in Part I, while Ares and Oifey are genuine monsters in Part II. And even the worst cavalry options tend to do more for you than the best combat infantry. Truly, a title where horses reign.

3. Sacred Stones. In theory, the Paladin class took a hit, losing Axes. But does Seth care? Not in the least! He's one of the most dominant units, in any game, ever. The others can reach his level, but they're much more "investment projects". Franz, Forde, and Kyle are all good, but not guaranteed high-performers. And Amelia... yeah, she's the baby of the bunch. Crazy how Cav!Amelia has a ponytail, but Cav!Forde doesn't, huh? Regardless, an excellent class, thanks to the GBA design.

2. FE7. Perhaps the pinnacle of GBA cavalry performance. FE7 Marcus is no Seth, but he's much closer to Seth than he is to his FE6 appearance. Just a totally dominant force, at least through the midgame. Lowen is solid too, but Kent and Sain truly stand out, especially with Lyn's Story levels. And even Isadora isn't half-bad. They can ferry your guys around, but honestly, it's just as well to let them do the fighting themselves.

1. Path of Radiance. Titania is one of the strongest Jeigans the series has known, likely second only to Seth. Oscar and Kieran are elite, too, while the rest aren't slouches either. Essentially, cavalry has everything going for it in these games, between strong Canto, the Rescue command, the Knight Ward, Sol, mere 2x weapon effectiveness, and the lack of its sequel's on-field penalties. They're just about the perfect class in this title.

By the way, major thanks to @Zapp Branniglenn for resurrecting this thread! Truly, he is among the finest Earthicans to ever accept honors from the headless corpse of Agnew.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Holy moly I forgot 3H.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Conquest: It's tough; it's an A tier class until chapter 19 where it starts to drop off... Xander, Silas, and Jakob are all good showings, but eventually they want to reclass. It's also a great backup class, and Shelter is always nice to pick up.

They want to reclass... Into what really? Because outside of Wyvern Xander for a few chapters (but after 21, you're likely shooting yourself in the foot tho), I'm not really seeing what they're best off going into...

[samthedigital]

52 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

They want to reclass... Into what really? Because outside of Wyvern Xander for a few chapters (but after 21, you're likely shooting yourself in the foot tho), I'm not really seeing what they're best off going into...

Xander in particular probably wants to go into Hero for Sol and Axebreaker. Swordbreaker helps too, but I don't really like staying in wyvern that long because he doesn't have swords. He probably wants Paladin for the endgame, but the game's basically done by then. Other units want classes that give them 1-2 range unless you just want some player phase only unit.

[Armchair General]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

They want to reclass... Into what really? Because outside of Wyvern Xander for a few chapters (but after 21, you're likely shooting yourself in the foot tho), I'm not really seeing what they're best off going into...

Probably an Great Knight?

 

But overall, these two classes are an bit of an stopgap in the grand scheme of things.

In Awakening, there's quite an few conditionally useful skills that they can pick up, along with having an semi-useful, but mobile unit.

 

3H is mainly there to grind out your riding skill. Desperation fits too niche of an role that can easily be replaced with an lot of stuff.

 

Shadows of Valentia never really gave you an reason not to use them outside of the occasional bit of unyielding terrain or pitting you against an group of Barons or something. 9 movement range is neat to have, but it's something that I never really made the most out of because... Well, just look at the rest of the cast.

 Fates gave them an bit of an nerf because the last set of levels in each route are indoors and getting +3 damage isn't exactly as useful as extending your survivability with an boost to your accuracy and evasion.

 

With Engage, it depends on exactly which Ring that you're using. But otherwise, can you actually attack after using pivot?

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Armchair General

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:17 PM, samthedigital said:

Xander in particular probably wants to go into Hero for Sol and Axebreaker. Swordbreaker helps too, but I don't really like staying in wyvern that long because he doesn't have swords. He probably wants Paladin for the endgame, but the game's basically done by then. Other units want classes that give them 1-2 range unless you just want some player phase only unit.

Iono... I think Hero makes Xander worse for marginal gain. The new and not-so-improved Sol is about as useful as tits on a bull, and 26 is pretty much the only chapter where Axebreaker does anything. 

Anyhow...

A tier in Holy War. On paper, they're supposed to be held back by stats, but the giant maps mean they are usually - by which I mean pretty much always - getting to the action before infantry can. On top of this, Canter is at a series high here.

B tier in all of the GBA games. Paladins have the whole weapon triangle in the Elibe games, making them able to match up well against most enemies (it helped that in the overseas release of Blazing Blade, effective weapons got nerfed). While Sacred Stones tried to nerf Paladins by taking axes away from them, it didn't do that much to them. Cavaliers can also class change into Great Knights, but that's a Powerup Letdown. Also, Paladin is Amelia's best option (though that ain't saying much when her other options are underwhelming to outright bad).

A tier in Path of Radiance. Effective weapons suck big time here, and cavaliers get to choose their new weapon when they class change. Also, Canter is a thing again (whilst it was in the GBA games, it was restricted to non-attack actions). 

C tier in Radiant Dawn. Intsys realized cavaliers were too good in PoR and nerfed them to hell; ledges exist, they get penalties to movement in indoors maps, they lost the weapon choice on promotion, and their caps are generally pretty bad. Titania is still good... but that's about it. Every other cavalry unit is underwhelming at best. 

D tier in Three Houses. I know this is a hot take, but Cavalier SUCKS in 3H. Poor speed, crappy mastery ability (which really doesn't help its already shitty case when some of the most desirable mastery abilities ALSO happen to be in the intermediate tier), and a negative speed growth for good measure. Mobility can only do so much in the face of such negatives... especially in a game where Stride exists. Oh, and as yet another kick in the nuts, terrain that slows cavalry down is common, which means they often don't even have that going for them. The end result is that excuses to go into Cavalier are rare at best. Paladin isn't much better. The only units who actually have much of an excuse to stay in Paladin are Ferdinand and Sylvain. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The new and not-so-improved Sol is about as useful as tits on a bull

If you're relying exclusively on Sol procs then sure, but that's not why Sol is a decent skill. Being able to EP in Conquest requires a bit of everything if you want to make it consistent. For example there's a 3% chance of not getting Sol once in ten tries. When you combine that with avoid and the like it becomes pretty strong.

23 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I think Hero makes Xander worse for marginal gain.

His move is worse, but he gets 3 skill and 1 speed in exchange for 2 res. I don't find myself wanting the movement after Xander swaps to Hero, but your mileage may vary if you LTC. I don't particularly care because the difference between turns in conquest is a few seconds of black screen.

Quote

and 26 is pretty much the only chapter where Axebreaker does anything

If Xander is swapping to Hero after chapter 21 then he's probably reaching Axebreaker around then anyway.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The only units who actually have much of an excuse to stay in Paladin are Ferdinand and Sylvain. 

It's Dimitri's best Advanced class by a fair bit, aside from Wyvern, but AM has limited flying battalions. It's also a strong consideration for Seteth (same as Ferdinand/Sylvain), Hubert and Lorenz (Frozen Lance one-shots for much of Advanced tier, particularly in Hubert's case), and Dedue/Bernadetta (particularly if you're a bigger fan of Vengeance in this tier than I am). 8 move + can use ground battalions is pretty nice, and while its effect on speed is unfortunate, there are a bunch of 3H characters who don't really care about speed. It is a bad class for speed-focused units like Petra or Catherine, certainly, but I'd still rank it an above average class within its tier. Among physical classes, only the fliers and bow classes are ahead IMO. Cavalier would be similar, its only real problem is that you often just want mastery skills from Intermediate. Cav absolutely crushes e.g. Brigand or Mercenary if you've already got the masteries you want and are just waiting for 20, though.

Anyway, here we go:

1. Path of Radiance: Yeah, not much question here. Titania is the best unit in the game, Oscar/Kieran are top five. Super canter, knight ward, choosing your weapon on promo (E axes are really good in this game thanks to forgeable steel and hand axes being E), there's a lot to like about this class.

2. The GBA games: Honestly they're close enough that I'm gonna talk about them together. 8 move, javelins (or hand axes in Blazing's case, but they're functionally similar), two weapons before promotion, non-combat canter and great rescue capabilities. Just an all-around stellar class. For specifics, Seth is more dominant than any other Paladin, but Forde and Kyle are a bit underwhelming by the standards of Christmas Cavs. Marcus6 isn't quite as dominant as Marcus7/Seth, but Zealot and Percival are great followups and Alance are two of the best units all game long. I don't feel like adjudicating the difference.

3. Genealogy of the Holy War: The game is Horse Emblem, but honestly I still think they managed to balance the class a bit better. Paladins are usually clearly worse statistically than their infantry competition (compare Alec and Ayra), at least. Still better units of course. Ares is really good but not Marcus7/Seth/Titania good. Sigurd I'm counting as a lord instead of a paladin. As mentioned above, considering Sigurd one alone would likely move this class up notably.

4. Fates: Cavalier gets Elbow Room, +3 damage which is almost always active, and Shelter, which is extremely valuable in a number of situations. Plus Xander's really good, y'know? The lower overall stats in some key areas mean they aren't as dominant as in the above games, but they're still very good

5. Three Houses: Certainly a less impressive showing by the standards of games with combat canter. But combat canter still rules. I strongly disagree that Stride devalues cavalry; in my mind it increases the value of canter, since +5 move on a brigand is often just overkill move, but +5 move on a cavalier can not only reach almost anything, but get to where you need to be after.

6. Radiant Dawn: Titania is still good, and the rest at least have canter though none are super-impressive statistically. As a class the ledges and indoor penalties really do rein in their mobility. Frankly they all have problems as units outside Titania and Oscar.

7. Awakening: While similar to Fates at base, the lack of Elbow Room or Shelter makes them notably worse. The units who start in the class aren't bad (understatement in the case of Frederick, if he counts) and I've certainly even reclassed others to get here (particularly Chrom), so it's probably still an above average class overall, but it doesn't stand out nearly as much without canter or key skills.

8. Echoes: They're solid enough. They have move, and lance access means Ridersbane which is handy (though two other classes have this too). Nothing wonderful past that, but there is a case they're actually a below average class this time!

9. Engage: Only +1 move over infantry, no innate canter, only one weapon. They're not trash but I confidently feel they're a below average class in this game, the only game I feel that way about.

[ping]

A question to those putting PoR Cavaliers at the top - do you find that Cav->Pala is the best class in that game, too? I find that rather difficult to answer - above Wyvern for sure, since Haar isn't half his RD self in this game, but the comparison with Pegasi is a bit screwy in my opinion. You only have two of those, but they're both fantastic: Marcia I absolutely put at #1 on hard, and Tanith is both very good on her own and she has the Reinforcement skill. I'd put three of the horsies between them and two below, which doesn't really provide a clear winner in my personal metric.

This is why I put BlaBla above PoR and SacSto at the same level - unlike Titania, FE7!Marcus and Seth are without a doubt the best units in their respective games. So I'm curious - would you agree with Pegasi ≥ Cavs in PoR and just consider PoR!Pegasi ≥ PoR!Cavs ≥ GBA!Cavs, or would you put PoR!Cavs at the top of those three?

Not an attempt to change your minds or anything, since...

On 9/22/2023 at 9:22 PM, gnip said:

the class is so excellent in many games, I'm not going to fight over [my exact ranking].

Just curious.

[samthedigital]

11 minutes ago, gnip said:

A question to those putting PoR Cavaliers at the top - do you find that Cav->Pala is the best class in that game, too? I find that rather difficult to answer - above Wyvern for sure, since Haar isn't half his RD self in this game, but the comparison with Pegasi is a bit screwy in my opinion.

I would put both classes above Cavaliers in FE9. Either Jill or Marcia is going to be the best unit from the time they join to the end. Even the second best one is probably going to be better than our Paladin squad with any kind of investment.

23 minutes ago, gnip said:

This is why I put BlaBla above PoR and SacSto at the same level - unlike Titania, FE7!Marcus and Seth are without a doubt the best units in their respective games.

The difference in my mind is that those games have more of a variety of strong classes. Magic users are much better relative to their FE9 showing, and there are foot locked units that have combat that isn't easily replicated by their mounted counterparts. They're also similar to FE9 in a way where Titania might be the best unit in the first half of the game, but another class's (probably the ones already mentioned) utility might be more important after that. This happens a lot less with Seth from what I remember, but I don't play FE8 enough to quantify that.

[SnowFire]

gnip: As sam indicated, it's more about the gap between Cavs/Paladins and everyone else.  If you think Marcia / Jill are slightly better than Oscar/Kieran, that's cool, but I think it's generally agreed they're at least at a similar tier level.  But Canto units are wildly better than almost any foot-mounted combat units barring, maybe, Ike-with-Ragnell-and-Earth-Supports.  The single easiest way to up the challenge of a FE9 hard mode playthrough is to bench every unit with Canto instantly while also trying to complete chapters promptly for BEXP.  (Well, maybe not right away - Chapter 6 is pretty well impossible to complete quickly without Titania abuse.)  That isn't as true of other games - like, FE6 without Cavaliers will be a bit sloggier, but not that different ultimately (if we spot ourselves some Marcus chipping in Chapters 1 & 2 on Hard Mode).

In general: Just to talk a bit more about 3H Cavaliers (cavs specifically, i.e. the Intermediate class).  Lance-users probably grabbed Reposition at the Beginner level, which for those who've played FE Heroes know is amazing, and it's even better with Canto & high move.  Chapter 6 has a time limit and some long corridors where if you're trying to get all the treasure, or kill everyone in time because you have trouble with the DK, where having some high-mobility characters is great.  Chapter 7 has a soft time limit in that if you charge in quickly, you can reduce the number of kills the other team gets, making it less likely the big stat boost reward for killing units kicks in.  Chapter 8 ALSO rewards high-mobility units - admittedly, Pegasi are probably more important here due to obstructions they fly over, but Cavalier is still very good and can help Repo other units while still moving to get to the villagers ASAP.  (And is your only option for, say, Dimitri / Sylvain / Ferdinand, who aren't going Pegasus.)  Chapter 9 is generally pretty easy, especially if you've been doing any Paralogues, but again has a soft time-limit mechanic that rewards you for moving quickly.  And a number of those Paralogues also reward quick movement - if you're doing Felix's paralogue, say, moving quickly to get to Rodrigue is helpful (for all that flyers are even better, yes, but you take what you can get), given that he's very likely to die on turn 2 if you take it slow.  Basically, running Cavalier will make a bunch of White Clouds missions substantially easier and get you a pile of Horsie Skill XP to trade in for Move +1 eventually, in exchange for, what, -1 Speed or so at endgame?  Maybe -2 Speed if you were going to use Thief instead?  Oh noes.  A very good trade, IMO.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's Dimitri's best Advanced class by a fair bit, aside from Wyvern, but AM has limited flying battalions. 

Is it really though? Grappler Dimitri is such better combat benchmarks, on top of the thief movement and higher AS/avoid. And when you need Atrocity-level damage against a monster boss, Fierce Iron Fist has you covered (nothing would stop him from using atrocity anyway). If we could modify his class on chapter 13, the Grappler -> War Master Dimitri meta would be so entrenched nobody would question it past the first year of the game. I couldn't see anybody electing for Paladin on that map because of the high concentration of forest tiles. 

I'm definitely thinking I underrated Three Houses cavs though. Particularly from the angle of Normal and Hard modes. In a setting where you can naturally double and ORKO enemies on your speed alone, the canto classes become immediately better in relation to the delete button classes (grappler, sniper, etc). Bow Knight is the same way. 

1 hour ago, gnip said:

A question to those putting PoR Cavaliers at the top - do you find that Cav->Pala is the best class in that game, too? I find that rather difficult to answer - above Wyvern for sure, since Haar isn't half his RD self in this game, but the comparison with Pegasi is a bit screwy in my opinion. 

I would answer "There's room in S tier". FE9's canto classes are so much higher in performance than the Have-Nots. I suppose the argument for FE9 Cavs > Pegs is just...there's more of them. And your first two have higher availability than Marcia. Marcia and Jill are some of the best units, no question. But they're also two very high priority Bonus Exp dumps whenever I play Hard. Forget Oscar and Titania, their base stats don't even stand up to Kieran. I'm giving them at least five levels worth to get them on par with him. And the only reason I don't give them more is Mist is hungry, they're going to see so much combat by the end of the game I don't want them to cap level at 20/20 too fast

I don't have a ranking ready for the pegasus knights list, but if I had to give a number 1 spot in the next three seconds, my answer is probably FE9. Incredible, consistent performance with no bad members of the class to drag down the ranking. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[lenticular]

As regards Cavaliers in Three Houses: while Intermediate classes are typically the ones with good masteries, it's still absolutely viable to use a class for it's power level in the moment rather than for what it can do for you long-term. One of the things that really helps out here is the existence of adjutants, which opens up two possible plays. One is to have a throwaway unit be your Cavalier and use an adjutant slot to make sure that none of your main units are falling behind. Then once you get up to Advanced tier, you can easily drop your Cavalier in favour of all the fully trained units you have with all their completed class masteries. Or, my personal preference, is to have your Cavalier backfill their Intermediate masteries later on by adjutanting. It doesn't matter if you're still in Brigand at level 20 if all you're doing is adjutanting, and you can pick up class masteries extremely fast if you have the statue bonus and a knowledge gem and then adjutant your unit onto an enemy phase unit. Going from 0 to mastery in a single map is eminently attainable. Which overall means that the cost of having one or two units spend time in Cavalier is very low.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

As regards Cavaliers in Three Houses: while Intermediate classes are typically the ones with good masteries, it's still absolutely viable to use a class for it's power level in the moment rather than for what it can do for you long-term. One of the things that really helps out here is the existence of adjutants, which opens up two possible plays. One is to have a throwaway unit be your Cavalier and use an adjutant slot to make sure that none of your main units are falling behind. Then once you get up to Advanced tier, you can easily drop your Cavalier in favour of all the fully trained units you have with all their completed class masteries. Or, my personal preference, is to have your Cavalier backfill their Intermediate masteries later on by adjutanting. It doesn't matter if you're still in Brigand at level 20 if all you're doing is adjutanting, and you can pick up class masteries extremely fast if you have the statue bonus and a knowledge gem and then adjutant your unit onto an enemy phase unit. Going from 0 to mastery in a single map is eminently attainable. Which overall means that the cost of having one or two units spend time in Cavalier is very low.

If Cavalier was that much better than other classes, I might agree, but it just... isn't. Therefore, I would feel it's a better use of my time to pick up desirable masteries now than have to do it later.

6 hours ago, SnowFire said:

In general: Just to talk a bit more about 3H Cavaliers (cavs specifically, i.e. the Intermediate class).  Lance-users probably grabbed Reposition at the Beginner level, which for those who've played FE Heroes know is amazing, and it's even better with Canto & high move.  Chapter 6 has a time limit and some long corridors where if you're trying to get all the treasure, or kill everyone in time because you have trouble with the DK, where having some high-mobility characters is great.  Chapter 7 has a soft time limit in that if you charge in quickly, you can reduce the number of kills the other team gets, making it less likely the big stat boost reward for killing units kicks in.  Chapter 8 ALSO rewards high-mobility units - admittedly, Pegasi are probably more important here due to obstructions they fly over, but Cavalier is still very good and can help Repo other units while still moving to get to the villagers ASAP.  (And is your only option for, say, Dimitri / Sylvain / Ferdinand, who aren't going Pegasus.)  Chapter 9 is generally pretty easy, especially if you've been doing any Paralogues, but again has a soft time-limit mechanic that rewards you for moving quickly.  And a number of those Paralogues also reward quick movement - if you're doing Felix's paralogue, say, moving quickly to get to Rodrigue is helpful (for all that flyers are even better, yes, but you take what you can get), given that he's very likely to die on turn 2 if you take it slow.  Basically, running Cavalier will make a bunch of White Clouds missions substantially easier and get you a pile of Horsie Skill XP to trade in for Move +1 eventually, in exchange for, what, -1 Speed or so at endgame?  Maybe -2 Speed if you were going to use Thief instead?  Oh noes.  A very good trade, IMO.

The problem is that Stride exists. Cavalier's mobility edge doesn't look so amazing when I can give almost all my units Cavalier movement without them being slowed down by anything that ain't plains. Also, time spent in Cavalier is time not spent picking up the good shit, and odds are Move +1 is gonna arrive too late to matter.

10 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If you're relying exclusively on Sol procs then sure, but that's not why Sol is a decent skill. Being able to EP in Conquest requires a bit of everything if you want to make it consistent. For example there's a 3% chance of not getting Sol once in ten tries. When you combine that with avoid and the like it becomes pretty strong.

I wouldn't call Sol "pretty strong". I'd call it JP! JUST PATHETIC!!!, your assertion that it is JR! JUST RIDICULOUS!!! And of course, too damn unreliable. I consider it *foolish* to bank on a skill that is worse than useless if the enemy ain't healthy. Also, I generally find evade unreliable unless you're benefitting from a Breaker skill. Aka, for the whole damn game, pretty much.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I consider it *foolish* to bank on a skill that is worse than useless if the enemy ain't healthy.

That's more of a player skill issue than a problem with Sol; just don't rely on it when the enemy isn't healthy. Do some math to see how much Sol does on a second hit, to see the chance of success in general, etc.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I wouldn't call Sol "pretty strong". I'd call it JP! JUST PATHETIC!!!, your assertion that it is JR! JUST RIDICULOUS!!! And of course, too damn unreliable. I consider it *foolish* to bank on a skill that is worse than useless if the enemy ain't healthy. Also, I generally find evade unreliable unless you're benefitting from a Breaker skill. Aka, for the whole damn game, pretty much.

You'll note the 97% chance I listed for hitting one Sol in 10 tries. When combining that with avoid (Corrin in particular has an easy Jakob pairup to give her some, but there are some good ways to stack that along with defense and the like... lucky seven is one such example) surviving can become as likely as hitting a 97% displayed hit (note displayed, not true) if we're using the 5* enemies and one Sol proc example, but it can get a lot better depending on the situation. If this is unreliable to you then we have vastly different ideas of what that means.

Edited September 25, 2023 by samthedigital

[ping]

I appreciate the replies  

It's a good point that while flyers vs. cavaliers in PoR can be contested, mount vs. no mount is a more clear-cut win for the former in PoR than it is in GBAFE.

[Dark Holy Elf]

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Is it really though? Grappler Dimitri is such better combat benchmarks, on top of the thief movement and higher AS/avoid

Thief movement is nice, but on the vast majority of maps, +2 move is better (only Chapter 14 has enough terrain in Azure Moon to tilt this). And +2 move and canter? That's definitely significantly better IMO.

If you're using Battalion Vantage+Wrath, then Grappler's combat is far worse than Paladin's for Dimitri. Killing in one crit is what matters, and Grappler doesn't have -faire on a killer weapon with more than 3 might. Even if you're not using this build, Paladin Dimitri isn't failing to kill anything unless he's strength-screwed. Brave Lance off his strength is monstrous, and of course there's Atrocity. Grappler does have slightly higher avoid, I'll grant you that; I just don't think it's nearly enough weighed against all Paladin's other advantages.

Dimitri has to be a Lord in Chapter 13 making class debates moot for him there, but if he could be a wyvern, that'd surely be his best class there. Being a flier lets you easily move where you need and avoid enemies you aren't ready for yet. There's a reason Verdant Wind has the easiest version of that map by all accounts.

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, samthedigital said:

That's more of a player skill issue than a problem with Sol; just don't rely on it when the enemy isn't healthy. Do some math to see how much Sol does on a second hit, to see the chance of success in general, etc.

You'll note the 97% chance I listed for hitting one Sol in 10 tries. When combining that with avoid (Corrin in particular has an easy Jakob pairup to give her some, but there are some good ways to stack that along with defense and the like... lucky seven is one such example) surviving can become as likely as hitting a 97% displayed hit (note displayed, not true) if we're using the 10 enemies and one Sol proc example, but it can get a lot better depending on the situation. If this is unreliable to you then we have vastly different ideas of what that means.

That ain't a 97% chance it actually helps, though. To be blunt, Sol is win-more AT FUCKING BEST. Anyone who can actually survive 10 enemies prolly wouldn't even need it. Which is the problem. Or at least, part of it. Also, Jakob is only worth using if Corrin is a girl, which ain't something I would readily assume because needless to say, not everyone is gonna want to play as a female Corrin... and Lucky Seven is not that useful either.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Shadow Mir