FE9 Tier list v3

[Hawk King]

@ Snowy

Even in your "hybrid" ranking system Marcia would still be 2 tiers above Nephenee, Mia, and Zihark. Her flight allows her to reach more enemies faster. Hell, she might even become better since she could allow for other units to reach more enemies faster with her rescue/drop utility.

As far as your "no rescue/droping" tier list idea goes, it sounds like FE11 is the game for you. All the 7 move units would become really good for seize maps but the fliers and Paladins would still be on top for their performance in the rout and arrive maps.

Bottom line is that no matter how you spin it, Marcia will be one of the best units and flight makes a big difference. Unless you do somthing idiotic like throw turn counts completely out the window, then Brom and Gatrie would be the best, haha.

[-Cynthia-]

Interesting theory: if Ulki didn't have flight, would we have to create a new Sub-Bottom Tier to accomodate him?

Haha probably not, flight doesn't help Ulki *that* much since he has so many other disadvantages (no 1-2 range, very lackluster offense, serious transform issues). He'd still be better than Nasir and Ena I bet, since they really don't do much at all.

[Snowy_One]

Right, that's why we use efficiency and not LTC! But you must admit that being able to move Ike forward contributes towards clearing the chapter, and that being able to slaughter enemies before anyone else can even reach them is a contribution.

Sure. But there is a HUGE difference between 'moving forwards to help' and 'rescue-dropping to quick-clear'. The current tier list assumes the latter is the only style of play.

Uh, why not? I mean, if you have Marcia, why not use her to her fullest potential? Anything else would just be sandbagging.

Because Marcia's 'fullest potential' in this tier list is not something that is used by everyone. In a fighting game if a unit is pretty meh all around except, with effort and work, they can set themselves up for a infinite combo that no one else can manage, are they suddenly the best? No. Above-average, maybe, but I'm fairly sure that the unit wouldn't be put at the top of the list, especially since only a few people would use said combo. Marcia, in this case, is STILL being used to her fullest potential. Just not rescue dropping, as if the command simply didn't exist for any mounted/fliers.

The problem is that it's actually quite hard to "not conform" to the tier list. The number of excellent 9 move units the game gives you is really very high, between Muarim, Makalov, Kieran, Titania, Astrid, Oscar, Jill, Marcia, and Tanith (and you could stretch to accomodate Tormod). All you actually need is three of these units to render all those 7 move units obsolete (you can have a 7 move unit with Mordecai stuck to him, in theory, pretend to be a 9 move unit, but that's about it). Maybe even two. Maybe that won't happen in some playthroughs, but it's a minority: and even in those playthroughs, the 9 move canto units will still be a cut above.

If you insist on playing the game super-optimally or whatever, obviously units in Upper Mid and below won't matter. But that's true of every tier list. Mid Tier on the FE6 tier list contains outrageous mediocrities like Lot, Lugh, and Roy.

Firstly, that's not true. Sure, the VERY top might not shuffle around too much, but anything below would. Foot units would likely all take a step up for one as we're no-longer rescue-dropping Ike into the seize square.

Secondly, you can't know that. Sorry to sound cliche, but there are a LOT of strategies out there and the tier list cannot account for them all, not can its players, and many will make various units more or less valuable. That doesn't mean we can limit ourselves to just 'fly to the end, drop Ike, clear' strategies.

Thirdly, even if it WAS true that the end result wouldn't change much, it should still be done. A tier list is just a list until a meaning is given to the placements. If someone made an identical tier list to this one, but then ranked the characters based on how pretty-sounding he thought their names were, would you think it a trustworthy tier list to use? I would hope not.

Kill count is a really bad way to tier the game. Rolf got more kills in my pt than Tanith or Titania. But that doesn't make him better, it just means he needs to be fed an ungodly number of enemies. And Tormod got more kills than all three.

I didn't say it was perfect. But there is one HUGE edge to killcount that LTC doesn't have. Almost every player will be having their units kill. Not every player will be gunning for a lower turncount. I KNOW it's not perfect by any means (feeding, counter-kills, units with weaker 1-2 range weapons/staffs/Reyson, BEXP). Especially since I'm more than willing to wager that most people try to kill as many enemies as possible on each map even if going for a LTC clear.

What about the tier list relies on one single strategy? Because I guarantee you that unless you use a completely boneheaded strategy Marcia is still far and away the best character in Chapter 15.

Rescue-dropping, Reyson chanting, flying over trees, always using mounted units to bumrush to the end, and that's just general stuff. Heck, Aku outright said that turncounts have been emphasized far too much in the past, and using certain strategies in which units are placed into exact squares on specific turns is the best way to lower turncounts. This does not make a unit better. Just says that, under certain conditions, they can help get a lower turn count.

Interesting theory: if Ulki didn't have flight, would we have to create a new Sub-Bottom Tier to accomodate him?

Ulki has a lot of problems, but even if his wings were clipped, he would still be more useful than Ena/Nasir.

Bottom line is that no matter how you spin it, Marcia will be one of the best units and flight makes a big difference. Unless you do somthing idiotic like throw turn counts completely out the window, then Brom and Gatrie would be the best, haha.

If I threw turncounts completely out the window Marcia would still be above Brom and Gatrie due to their bad movement and low speed. Throwing turncounts out the window doesn't suddenly make every unit equal to each other, just means that one of the measuring sticks you are used to is gone. Removing Empire Strikes back doesn't suddenly make Phantom Menace better than A New Hope after all, or put Jar Jar on the same level of evil as Palpatine.

[Samias]

Why are you assuming people only like Marcia for rescue dropping? PoR is one of the least rescue-drop/warp dependant games in the whole series since there are very few chapters with a seize objective. Maybe Marcia is so high tier because her combat is good, her movement is fantastic and bypasses many obstacles throughout the game, she joins early game, she's easier than Jill to shove, and lances give her 1-2 ranged options that sword-locked units will never have, barring Ike + Ragnell. Even if you ban rescue dropping as a tactic, that is only going to affect Marcia in very few chapters, if any. Marcia engages ravens before anyone else in chapter 12, charges across boats in chapter 13, crosses desert in chapter 15, bypasses swamps and zooms over trees in chapter 17, escapes up the cliff face in chapter 20, avoids pitfalls in chapter 23, and again easily scales the cliffs in chapter 25. Jill has many of the same advantages, but Marcia joins earlier and has more combat opportunities, discounting the popular bexp dump to begin with.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Samias

[Hawk King]

@ Snowy

The comment about Brom and Gatrie was a joke. I should have known you would focus on that part of my post...

Even if you remove the mounts' ability to rescue other units, Marcia is still the 1st or 2nd best unit in this game. And the current tier positionings wouldn't change much at all. Actually, Reyson would move up and thats about it.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Why is Boyd not in Top anymore? Sure, he's not on a horse, but statistically he's the best footie, and his near-perfect availability is also something to be considered.

Also, I'd like to vouch Kieran > Oscar for the fact that Kieran can double in his join chapter with the Short Axe and wipe out a decent amount of the units in C11, and he's the better unit overall besides Oscar's availability lead.

[Hawk King]

Oscar has an availability lead over Kieran and their performance is almost identical.

[Snowy_One]

Why are you assuming people only like Marcia for rescue dropping? PoR is one of the least rescue-drop/warp dependant games in the whole series since there are very few chapters with a seize objective. Maybe Marcia is so high tier because her combat is good, her movement is fantastic and bypasses many obstacles throughout the game, she joins early game, she's easier than Jill to shove, and lances give her 1-2 ranged options that sword-locked units will never have, barring Ike + Ragnell.

Because Zihark, Nephenee, and Mia all have combat and availability similar to Marcia's, yet are ranked in the mid/upper-mid tiers. The single biggest difference between Marcia and those three is Marcia's movement, and the single greatest upside to said movement is in rescue-dropping for LTC. Ike and Boyd are both better fighters than many of the mounted units, yet managed to place above the majority of the tier list, yet Tanith, who doesn't have joining time or OMG stats, is right below them, so there is CLEARLY something about flight that is so amazing as to put Tanith above all other units and almost in the top tier. Rescue-dropping is the most likely answer.

If Marcia was really that high because of her combat and her extra movement/flight didn't have anything to do with it, Nephenee should be higher and Tanith would be much lower due to late joining and meh-ish stats.

Even if you ban rescue dropping as a tactic, that is only going to affect Marcia in very few chapters, if any.

For the entire game she's going to have combat more or less on par with the SM/Neph and isn't going to have the edge of 'well she can just fly Ike to the finish line' to fall back on. In the past I've seen her fall down to mid-tier. While I won't say that rating would be justifiable, I would say that it means that there is a set of circumstances out there that would allow such a thing to be possible for sure.

Marcia engages ravens before anyone else in chapter 12, charges across boats in chapter 13, crosses desert in chapter 15, bypasses swamps and zooms over trees in chapter 17, escapes up the cliff face in chapter 20, avoids pitfalls in chapter 23, and again easily scales the cliffs in chapter 25. Jill has many of the same advantages, but Marcia joins earlier and has more combat opportunities, discounting the popular bexp dump to begin with.

*claps* I'll assume that those things don't change at all. That's a total of 7 chapters Marcia doesn't change on. That's less than half of the chapters she's around for. So, logically, this means she's going to suffer a LOT assuming that those are the only chapters she stays the same on.

Even if you remove the mounts' ability to rescue other units, Marcia is still the 1st or 2nd best unit in this game. And the current tier positionings wouldn't change much at all. Actually, Reyson would move up and thats about it.

Ignoring movement Marcia is a mid/upper-mid fighter. I highly doubt she's suddenly 'the second best unit' if she loses rescue-dropping as her combat skills become more important and her rescue-dropping skills much less.

[Anouleth]

Sure. But there is a HUGE difference between 'moving forwards to help' and 'rescue-dropping to quick-clear'. The current tier list assumes the latter is the only style of play.

No it doesn't.

Because Marcia's 'fullest potential' in this tier list is not something that is used by everyone.

Tough. If I were to play through the game and have Mia exclusively use a Slim Sword, would that make her a bad character? No, of course not. Characters are rated on what they CAN do to contribute to an efficient playthrough. Maybe the player won't always do that, but that doesn't mean anything. If a player was to use Meta Knight and never use his specials, would that make him worse? No, his specials still make him a great unit even if they're not something that is used by everyone.

In a fighting game if a unit is pretty meh all around except, with effort and work, they can set themselves up for a infinite combo that no one else can manage, are they suddenly the best? No.

If there are players that refuse to use Meta Knight's specials, does that make him not the best any more? No.

Above-average, maybe, but I'm fairly sure that the unit wouldn't be put at the top of the list, especially since only a few people would use said combo. Marcia, in this case, is STILL being used to her fullest potential. Just not rescue dropping, as if the command simply didn't exist for any mounted/fliers.

But the command does exist, even if you don't like it. If you want to make a No Rescue tier list, go ahead, there is precedent (no Seth, no Warp), but this tier list, as far as I know, considers all the resources available in the game.

Secondly, you can't know that. Sorry to sound cliche, but there are a LOT of strategies out there and the tier list cannot account for them all, not can its players, and many will make various units more or less valuable. That doesn't mean we can limit ourselves to just 'fly to the end, drop Ike, clear' strategies.

We are not limiting ourselves. The majority of playthroughs will involve two or more 9 move units, because the game just gives you so many, and it would be absurd to refuse to use them to the best of their ability. Obviously, there will be a minority of playthroughs in which, by some fluke, there is one or zero 9 move units, and they should be given consideration, but we are not going to ignore rescue dropping because you want to give inferior units a fighting chance.

Also, there are only two seize chapters in which flight is a serious factor.

Thirdly, even if it WAS true that the end result wouldn't change much, it should still be done. A tier list is just a list until a meaning is given to the placements. If someone made an identical tier list to this one, but then ranked the characters based on how pretty-sounding he thought their names were, would you think it a trustworthy tier list to use? I would hope not.

So you're saying we should completely ignore low turn count strategies that involve rescue-dropping, not because they have a distorting effect on the tier list, but because you don't like them.

I didn't say it was perfect. But there is one HUGE edge to killcount that LTC doesn't have. Almost every player will be having their units kill. Not every player will be gunning for a lower turncount. I KNOW it's not perfect by any means (feeding, counter-kills, units with weaker 1-2 range weapons/staffs/Reyson, BEXP). Especially since I'm more than willing to wager that most people try to kill as many enemies as possible on each map even if going for a LTC clear.

No. Killcount does not even come close to measuring which characters are good and bad, unless you are SERIOUSLY telling me that Rolf is better than Tanith in ANY way.

Rescue-dropping, Reyson chanting, flying over trees, always using mounted units to bumrush to the end, and that's just general stuff.

Are you denying that these things are useful? By what metric is killing enemies useful, but not chanting?

Heck, Aku outright said that turncounts have been emphasized far too much in the past, and using certain strategies in which units are placed into exact squares on specific turns is the best way to lower turncounts. This does not make a unit better. Just says that, under certain conditions, they can help get a lower turn count.

Flight makes a unit better, get over it.

Ulki has a lot of problems, but even if his wings were clipped, he would still be more useful than Ena/Nasir.

So you were lying when you said that flight makes you go up a tier? Or are you just stupid?

If I threw turncounts completely out the window Marcia would still be above Brom and Gatrie due to their bad movement and low speed. Throwing turncounts out the window doesn't suddenly make every unit equal to each other, just means that one of the measuring sticks you are used to is gone. Removing Empire Strikes back doesn't suddenly make Phantom Menace better than A New Hope after all, or put Jar Jar on the same level of evil as Palpatine.

Wow, that's like, a Nesshelper-level analogy. All you need is some gratuituous tropes and a good helping of butthurt.

Ignoring movement Marcia is a mid/upper-mid fighter.

If we ignore skills and criticals, Mia is a bottom tier fighter.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

Why is Boyd not in Top anymore? Sure, he's not on a horse, but statistically he's the best footie, and his near-perfect availability is also something to be considered.

He's definitely not on the same level as Oscar/Kieran in terms of combat and usefulness. Especially because the fact that he takes double digit damage forever catches up to him and nullifies his massive HP.

[Titamon]

Because Zihark, Nephenee, and Mia all have combat and availability similar to Marcia's

Uh... I don't understand this comparison. Marcia has more strength and uses a stronger weapon type than Mia. I don't see how Mia's combat is in anyway comparable.

And even in the case of Zihark and Nephenee she loses, because they have more strength (and weapon type in Nephenee's case) and innate skills that boost their offense.

[PKL]

Uh... I don't understand this comparison. Marcia has more strength and uses a stronger weapon type than Mia. I don't see how Mia's combat is in anyway comparable.

And even in the case of Zihark and Nephenee she loses, because they have more strength (and weapon type in Nephenee's case) and innate skills that boost their offense.

Not to mention, Marcia also has 1-2 range over Mia, which is later forgeable. I dont get the comparison either. Its silly enough to pretend marcia's movement advantage doesnt exist. On the example of metaknight again. Just because a noob doesnt use every one of MKs amazing tools to win doesnt mean hes not the best character in the game. Let's say a noob only uses Mk's jab, dsmash and upsmash. It would be incredibly easy to beat him and therefore might seem like metaknight is bad. But if you play against a good metaknight that knows how to utilize his best moves like tornado, grounded shuttle loop, forward tilt, down tilt and his amazing aerials you wouldnt think the same. Same with Marcia. Snowy is trying to argue that if we ignore her movement, she wouldnt be so high on the tier list. But thing is, her movement does exist. She can reach enemies far quicker than 7 move units and beat them before those 7 move scrubs even reach the enemies, she also has the added bonus of being able to ferry people around in some maps.

Edited September 8, 2012 by CR-S0I

[Snowy_One]

No it doesn't.

The disproportionately high ranking of fliers disagrees with you.

Tough. If I were to play through the game and have Mia exclusively use a Slim Sword, would that make her a bad character? No, of course not. Characters are rated on what they CAN do to contribute to an efficient playthrough. Maybe the player won't always do that, but that doesn't mean anything. If a player was to use Meta Knight and never use his specials, would that make him worse? No, his specials still make him a great unit even if they're not something that is used by everyone.

Assume for a moment Rock could do a 247619 A+B, 46 aB, 23 A combo that would leave any opponent she connected it with incapable of retaliation. By using this combo he effectively wins the match as his opponent, no matter how strong or how weak his weapon or the remainder of his movelist, can't retaliate. Suddenly Rock is the best character in Soul Caliber by this logic even though he has one of the most consistently underpowered movelists outside of this one combo.

I'm not saying Marcia is suddenly bad if we remove rescue-dropping from the game, but you would be stupid to claim Rock great because he can do that ONE combo that only a few people will know how to use and won't consistently use and then ignore how he preforms the rest of the time.

But the command does exist, even if you don't like it. If you want to make a No Rescue tier list, go ahead, there is precedent (no Seth, no Warp), but this tier list, as far as I know, considers all the resources available in the game.

The tiering community here is asinine and will gleefully mock people for trying to make tier lists that aren't 100% efficient.

So you're saying we should completely ignore low turn count strategies that involve rescue-dropping, not because they have a distorting effect on the tier list, but because you don't like them.

What I'm saying is that the reasoning behind a tier list is just as, if not more, important than the final result.

No. Killcount does not even come close to measuring which characters are good and bad, unless you are SERIOUSLY telling me that Rolf is better than Tanith in ANY way.

Rolf has an earlier join-time, stronger 2-range combat, reliable bonuses against wyverns, access to unique weapons, is one of two units capable of using 3-range melee weapons, can potentially have more STR than her (and bows have more MT than their spear-counterparts), and can do housechores better.

Not saying Rolf on the whole > Tanith, but Rolf having NOTHING he's better at than Tanith is stupid.

Are you denying that these things are useful? By what metric is killing enemies useful, but not chanting?

By what metric isn't killing enemies more useful? Getting a second life in a Mario game is always useful, yes, but at the end of the day you have to stomp through enemies. A 1-up may be better than a fire-flower, but that doesn't mean the fire-flower is suddenly useless. The only way it would be is using the Tanooki suit to fly over the enemies.

So you were lying when you said that flight makes you go up a tier? Or are you just stupid?

I'm saying Ulki's problems are too great to be redeemed by flight.

If we ignore skills and criticals, Mia is a bottom tier fighter.

Then I would say you are a horrible tier judge.

Here's Marcia's stats, both at join and at 20/20

Joining: HP: 20 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 7 SPD: 11 LCK: 4 DEF: 8 RES: 6

And here is her 20/20 stats: HP: 42.7 STR: 23 MAG: 8.8 SKL: 26 SPD: 28 LCK: 17.6 DEF: 18.5 RES: 19.2

Now, for comparison, here are Mia's join stats: HP: 21 STR: 7 MAG: 0 SKL: 10 SPD: 13 LCK: 6 DEF: 7 RES: 2

Mia, joining about two chapters earlier, leads in HP by 1, SKL by 3, SPD by 2, LCK by 2, and Marcia leads STR by 1, DEF by 1, and RES by 4. A single level-up in the time between Mia and Marcia's joining could easily erase Marcia's leads on her in all areas except RES. So yea, they have decently similar combat.

At 20/20 Mia has the following stats: HP: 41.5 STR: 21.2 MAG: 11.9 SKL: 26.85 SPD: 30 LCK: 20.85 DEF: 15.6 RES: 12.25

Marcia has a lead of 2 HP, 2 STR, 2-3 DEF, and 7 RES. Yes, she's better than Mia, but not by a ground-shaking amount. If Mia is suddenly a 'bottom-tier' fighter without her skills than Marcia, who joins without skills, MUST BE GOING FROM THE BOTTOM OR NEAR-BOTTOM ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP ON HER FLIGHT ALONE!

Can you see why this might be a LITTLE bit unfair?

Also, FYI, here is unit X at 20/20: HP: 43.8 STR: 23.2 MAG: 9.6 SKL: 27.1 SPD: 27 LCK: 19.2 DEF: 19.4 RES: 13.5

One more HP, similar STR, 1 more MAG, one more SKL, 1 less SPD, 2 more LCK, 1 more DEF, and 6 less RES. Almost identical RES aside. So who is this unit?

It's Rolf. Bottom-tier Rolf. Looks like Marcia is actually pretty bottom-tier herself except for her flying abilities. Gee. I wonder how it could be used on an 'efficiency' tier list to put a unit with stats similar to a bottom-tier unit as the second-best unit in the game?

[Anouleth]

The disproportionately high ranking of fliers disagrees with you.

The high ranking of fliers is proportionate. Just because fliers are the best units in the game does not mean that foot units are useless. Foot units in general are not as useful as fliers.

Assume for a moment Rock could do a 247619 A+B, 46 aB, 23 A combo that would leave any opponent she connected it with incapable of retaliation. By using this combo he effectively wins the match as his opponent, no matter how strong or how weak his weapon or the remainder of his movelist, can't retaliate. Suddenly Rock is the best character in Soul Caliber by this logic even though he has one of the most consistently underpowered movelists outside of this one combo.

I'm not saying Marcia is suddenly bad if we remove rescue-dropping from the game, but you would be stupid to claim Rock great because he can do that ONE combo that only a few people will know how to use and won't consistently use and then ignore how he preforms the rest of the time.

I'm sure that even the stupidest of players can figure out how Marcia's flying works.

The tiering community here is asinine

There's the door. Nobody is forcing you to talk to us. Nobody is forcing you to attack our positions.

and will gleefully mock people for trying to make tier lists that aren't 100% efficient.

We're mocking you now.

Rolf has an earlier join-time, stronger 2-range combat, reliable bonuses against wyverns, access to unique weapons, is one of two units capable of using 3-range melee weapons, can potentially have more STR than her (and bows have more MT than their spear-counterparts), and can do housechores better.

Not saying Rolf on the whole > Tanith, but Rolf having NOTHING he's better at than Tanith is stupid.

I doubt there is any unit in the entire game that Rolf does more damage to than Tanith + her two Falcoknight buddies. Having 3 range weapons is of no value when Tanith has 2 move movement anyway.

By what metric isn't killing enemies more useful?

A metric that evaluates abilities upon their contribution to the completion of the chapter. You didn't answer my question, so I'll repeat it:

By what metric is killing enemies useful, but not chanting?

Please do not respond with a bad analogy. I am asking a question and I expect an answer.

Getting a second life in a Mario game is always useful, yes, but at the end of the day you have to stomp through enemies. A 1-up may be better than a fire-flower, but that doesn't mean the fire-flower is suddenly useless. The only way it would be is using the Tanooki suit to fly over the enemies.

And what the fuck does any of this have do to with chanting being supposedly useless?

I'm saying Ulki's problems are too great to be redeemed by flight.

You didn't answer my question. When you said earlier on that "simply having flight knocks you up a tier or two", you were implying that there were no problems that were too great to be redeemed by flight, implying that a random civilian could get into Low just by having wings. Now you say that flight alone doesn't get you a tier higher. When you made this earlier statement, did you make it because you did not know it was wrong or did you know it was wrong and make it anyway? This question only has two answers.

Then I would say you are a horrible tier judge.

Here's Marcia's stats, both at join and at 20/20

Joining: HP: 20 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 7 SPD: 11 LCK: 4 DEF: 8 RES: 6

And here is her 20/20 stats: HP: 42.7 STR: 23 MAG: 8.8 SKL: 26 SPD: 28 LCK: 17.6 DEF: 18.5 RES: 19.2

Now, for comparison, here are Mia's join stats: HP: 21 STR: 7 MAG: 0 SKL: 10 SPD: 13 LCK: 6 DEF: 7 RES: 2

Mia, joining about two chapters earlier, leads in HP by 1, SKL by 3, SPD by 2, LCK by 2, and Marcia leads STR by 1, DEF by 1, and RES by 4. A single level-up in the time between Mia and Marcia's joining could easily erase Marcia's leads on her in all areas except RES. So yea, they have decently similar combat.

At 20/20 Mia has the following stats: HP: 41.5 STR: 21.2 MAG: 11.9 SKL: 26.85 SPD: 30 LCK: 20.85 DEF: 15.6 RES: 12.25

Marcia has a lead of 2 HP, 2 STR, 2-3 DEF, and 7 RES. Yes, she's better than Mia, but not by a ground-shaking amount. If Mia is suddenly a 'bottom-tier' fighter without her skills than Marcia, who joins without skills, MUST BE GOING FROM THE BOTTOM OR NEAR-BOTTOM ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP ON HER FLIGHT ALONE!

Can you see why this might be a LITTLE bit unfair?

Also, FYI, here is unit X at 20/20: HP: 43.8 STR: 23.2 MAG: 9.6 SKL: 27.1 SPD: 27 LCK: 19.2 DEF: 19.4 RES: 13.5

One more HP, similar STR, 1 more MAG, one more SKL, 1 less SPD, 2 more LCK, 1 more DEF, and 6 less RES. Almost identical RES aside. So who is this unit?

It's Rolf. Bottom-tier Rolf. Looks like Marcia is actually pretty bottom-tier herself except for her flying abilities. Gee. I wonder how it could be used on an 'efficiency' tier list to put a unit with stats similar to a bottom-tier unit as the second-best unit in the game?

So what? The statistical difference between unpromoted characters in this game is pretty fucking low. Yeah, I was using hyperbole when I said Mia was a bottom tier combatant. I forgot how many downright awful characters there were in the game. Sue me.

[Snowy_One]

The high ranking of fliers is proportionate. Just because fliers are the best units in the game does not mean that foot units are useless. Foot units in general are not as useful as fliers.

And why not? They tend to have similar or better stats, so why are they almost unconditionally inferior to fliers?

I'm sure that even the stupidest of players can figure out how Marcia's flying works.

I'd make a ASCII graph showing how much you missed the point, but I'd have to go to a whole different site to finish it.

The point I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Marcia's rescue-dropping may be powerful, but Marcia herself is fairly average on the whole except for her flight. Her flight is only good enough for her current position when playing for LTC and when rescue-dropping though. That makes the criteria where she is 'good' rather limited. If a player chooses to not play for low turn counts, not to rescue drop, or not to use Marcia to rescue-drop, her entire position on the tier is suddenly gone.

And before you say it, no, this is not about 'optimal use'. Her entire position is determined by her rescue-dropping which she suddenly hasn't done for several chapters now. If we were to Ike-solo up to 17, then BEXP up Boyd and Marcia to their proper levels come 18, Boyd would fight almost identically to how he would have if he had been deployed the entire time. Marcia would as well, but her position would PLUMMET as her combat is average and her main use is flight. She wouldn't just lose the points she would have gotten for not being there (Titania would lose those as well, and they're a LOT), but the ones for rescue-dropping. Don't believe me? Tier her without rescue-dropping in play at ALL. I'm going to wager she'll end up at Upper-mid at the highest.

There's the door. Nobody is forcing you to talk to us. Nobody is forcing you to attack our positions.

You may be asinine, but I'm clearly insane as I keep expecting you to change.

I doubt there is any unit in the entire game that Rolf does more damage to than Tanith + her two Falcoknight buddies. Having 3 range weapons is of no value when Tanith has 2 move movement anyway.

You asked what Rolf did better than Tanith. At last check, Tanith has no 3-range combat at all while Rolf does. Tanith has her own things she does better than Rolf as well. I never said otherwise.

A metric that evaluates abilities upon their contribution to the completion of the chapter. You didn't answer my question, so I'll repeat it:

By what metric is killing enemies useful, but not chanting?

Please do not respond with a bad analogy. I am asking a question and I expect an answer.

In order to beat the game you are REQUIRED to kill enemies. Rout chapters exist and even one makes it so that killing enemies is essential. At no point in the game are you required to chant. Chanting may be valuable, but you chant for one of two primary reasons. 1) to allow another unit to kill. 2) to allow a unit to clear a chapter after killing enough/certain enemies. Either way, the killing is needed, the chanting is optional.

And what the fuck does any of this have do to with chanting being supposedly useless?

Because to anyone without the suit they will still have to clear the level. The 1-up is still valuable, but it's a fall-back. For when you screw up. You still have to make your way through the enemies, a task made far easier by the fire-flower.

Likewise, chanting may make things easier, but you still have to clear your way through the enemies, a task Reyson can't do. He can refresh other units to kill, but on the average he's refreshing only about 2 people, and since he takes up a slot, that's only one extra guy your getting by deploying him.

You didn't answer my question. When you said earlier on that "simply having flight knocks you up a tier or two", you were implying that there were no problems that were too great to be redeemed by flight, implying that a random civilian could get into Low just by having wings. Now you say that flight alone doesn't get you a tier higher. When you made this earlier statement, did you make it because you did not know it was wrong or did you know it was wrong and make it anyway? This question only has two answers.

I believe Ulki to be the one flying character actually rated fairly by this tier list, mainly because his problems are so big even LTC lovers can't deny them.

So what? The statistical difference between unpromoted characters in this game is pretty fucking low. Yeah, I was using hyperbole when I said Mia was a bottom tier combatant. I forgot how many downright awful characters there were in the game. Sue me.

And the fact that she's almost statistically identical to Rolf at 20/20 as well? Sure, she has many advantages over him, such as melee weapons and the like. However, her combat on its own is not all that amazing. She doesn't have amazing stats. She doesn't have amazing skills. She doesn't even have axes. All she has is flight.

Yet that flight is somehow enough to make her second-best unit in the game. If Marcia was a mere mounted unit (or even a foot soldier), she'd be nowhere near her current ranking.

[Elieson]

Last time I checked, Marcia has 4ever decent stats, easy access to strong 1~2 range offense, flying and canto. She isn't the most powerful unit, obv, but she allows your team to perform better, and functions well on her own.

In rout chapters, doesn't extra mov help you reach enemies quicker? If Marcia can kill them anyway, or carry someone else to do it too, why are you calling that inefficient/ignoring it? Sure Boyd kills better. He also reaches his enemies slower unless carried further into combat by units like Marcia, something he could never do as relianbly without help.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Elieson

[CT075]

itt snowy does not understand the concept of "more move & equivalent stats = more fighting = more kills = better"

[MacLovin]

itt snowy does not understand the concept of "more move & equivalent stats = more fighting = more kills = better"

Mia is only good in fe9 drafts if you have Marcia.

also, inb4 SOnic Sword!Mia for 1-2 range argument.

[Dark Sage]

itt snowy does not understand the concept of "more move & equivalent stats = more fighting = more kills = better"

I've known Snowy for over two years now, he's just mad because his favorite units aren't ranked highly on the tier list and every other reason is just shit he made up.

[Anouleth]

And why not? They tend to have similar or better stats, so why are they almost unconditionally inferior to fliers?

Because fliers have flight, which is useful.

I'd make a ASCII graph showing how much you missed the point, but I'd have to go to a whole different site to finish it.

The point I'm trying to make here is that, yes, Marcia's rescue-dropping may be powerful, but Marcia herself is fairly average on the whole except for her flight. Her flight is only good enough for her current position when playing for LTC and when rescue-dropping though. That makes the criteria where she is 'good' rather limited. If a player chooses to not play for low turn counts, not to rescue drop, or not to use Marcia to rescue-drop, her entire position on the tier is suddenly gone.

No it isn't. The actions of some individual player doesn't affect Marcia's tier position. I could play the game and refuse to use Mia's ability to wield any sword but Iron, but that wouldn't make her position on the tier list "go".

And before you say it, no, this is not about 'optimal use'. Her entire position is determined by her rescue-dropping which she suddenly hasn't done for several chapters now. If we were to Ike-solo up to 17, then BEXP up Boyd and Marcia to their proper levels come 18, Boyd would fight almost identically to how he would have if he had been deployed the entire time. Marcia would as well, but her position would PLUMMET as her combat is average and her main use is flight.

This doesn't make any sense. Even if we only considered from chapter 18 and onwards, Marcia is still quite a bit better than Boyd having decisive advantages in movement for every chapter then on; in the cases of Chapters 19, 21, 23, 24, 25, and 28, a huge advantage since Boyd also has to deal with terrain.

She wouldn't just lose the points she would have gotten for not being there (Titania would lose those as well, and they're a LOT), but the ones for rescue-dropping. Don't believe me? Tier her without rescue-dropping in play at ALL. I'm going to wager she'll end up at Upper-mid at the highest.

No, even without rescue-dropping Marcia is far better than Nephenee. Nephenee sucks in the boat chapters, the desert chapter, isn't really very good in the swamp, and even in comfortable indoor chapters lags behind a huge amount. These are all chapters where Marcia curbstomps her and this is just before Chapter 18. Moreover, because we're not rescue-dropping, Nephenee has literally no way around her mediocre movement. She is forced to stay behind the front lines and will never be able to contribute on the same level as Marcia. In fact, I would go so far as to say that without rescue-dropping, Marcia would actually be slightly better because there is no way that a foot unit can keep up with a flying unit without rescue-dropping.

I think Mordecai would be a lot better, as well. With 9 move, he can constantly shove Ike forward and keep him level with other mounted units.

You may be asinine, but I'm clearly insane as I keep expecting you to change.

I don't know what you are.

You asked what Rolf did better than Tanith. At last check, Tanith has no 3-range combat at all while Rolf does.

Irrelevant, since 3-range combat does not help Rolf kill things faster than Tanith does.

Tanith has her own things she does better than Rolf as well. I never said otherwise.

Like killing enemies. Are there things that Rolf does better? No, because he can only kill enemies and he does that worse than Tanith in 100% of scenarios.

In order to beat the game you are REQUIRED to kill enemies. Rout chapters exist and even one makes it so that killing enemies is essential. At no point in the game are you required to chant. Chanting may be valuable, but you chant for one of two primary reasons. 1) to allow another unit to kill. 2) to allow a unit to clear a chapter after killing enough/certain enemies. Either way, the killing is needed, the chanting is optional.

There is no individual action in this game that is necessary. Killing a unit with Rolf is never necessary. Killing a unit with a unit chanting by Reyson is never necessary. Aside from Ike, there is no unit in the game that is necessary.

Likewise, chanting may make things easier, but you still have to clear your way through the enemies, a task Reyson can't do. He can refresh other units to kill, but on the average he's refreshing only about 2 people, and since he takes up a slot, that's only one extra guy your getting by deploying him.

So he's only twice as valuable as every single other person on the team? I think you're underselling him, personally, but whatevs.

I believe Ulki to be the one flying character actually rated fairly by this tier list, mainly because his problems are so big even LTC lovers can't deny them.

Fine, you know what? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're a liar rather than stupid.

And the fact that she's almost statistically identical to Rolf at 20/20 as well? Sure, she has many advantages over him, such as melee weapons and the like. However, her combat on its own is not all that amazing. She doesn't have amazing stats. She doesn't have amazing skills. She doesn't even have axes. All she has is flight.

Yet that flight is somehow enough to make her second-best unit in the game. If Marcia was a mere mounted unit (or even a foot soldier), she'd be nowhere near her current ranking.

If, if if if if if.

[dondon151]

As far as your "no rescue/droping" tier list idea goes, it sounds like FE11 is the game for you. All the 7 move units would become really good for seize maps but the fliers and Paladins would still be on top for their performance in the rout and arrive maps.

aside from gratuitous warp usage in FE11, infantry are not even "the best" in that game even with no rescuing and uniform seize objectives for a few reasons: marth moves nearly as fast as a mounted unit after he gets the boots, and the advantage of moving faster than your lord is that you get to clear out enemies before he reaches that location, which just makes things overall safer. add in the fact that forging is enough to make even the weakest unit have incredible offensive power, so long as he has the proper C ranks, and the absence of rescuing isn't nearly enough to mitigate flier and mounted dominance.

[Anouleth]

Or you could look at FE4, another game with no rescue-dropping option, in which mounted units also dominate.

[Chiki]

That makes the criteria where she is 'good' rather limited.

There's an infinite number of criteria we can rank characters in. The only criteria we use are the meaningful ones, that is LTCs and reliability. You will have to argue why they aren't meaningful as opposed to saying they're only two criteria she's good in.

[MacLovin]

How is Sothe above the likes of Haar, Geoffrey, Janaff, Elincia, Devdan, Shinon, GAtrie, etc.

As far as I can see, he's just a squishy theif.

Haar/Geoffrey may not cut turns, but are pretty decent mounts and Haar FLIES.

Janaff has first turn transform and FLIES.

Elincia has HORSEBIRD, FLIES, has Staves and Amiti.

Although she wants some bexp.

Shinon/GAtrie have early usefulness and all.

Eh, I just don't understand how Sothe is that high.

[PKL]

How is Sothe above the likes of Haar, Geoffrey, Janaff, Elincia, Devdan, Shinon, GAtrie, etc.

As far as I can see, he's just a squishy theif.

Haar/Geoffrey may not cut turns, but are pretty decent mounts and Haar FLIES.

Janaff has first turn transform and FLIES.

Elincia has HORSEBIRD, FLIES, has Staves and Amiti.

Although she wants some bexp.

Shinon/GAtrie have early usefulness and all.

Eh, I just don't understand how Sothe is that high.

Haar costs turns to recruit if you have Jill (because she has to stay back and wont be able to help ferry Ike) and he wont see recruitment if Jill is skipped in favor of Marcia 2 turn of ravenship (chapter 12)

Geoffrey has availability woes. He joins right when there's a map that impedes good mount movement. His bases arent that spectacular either.

Janaff might fly and all, but his combat is bad. No 2 range, gauge and wont ORKO anything ever. He also has no canto.

Elincia has 3 chapters of availability. Even with flying rescue, shes in a pretty dire situation :/.

Shinon's earlygame is overrated. Gatrie is good in ch7 and thats about it.

Sothe can get you a full guard and helps 7 turn Astrid's boat chapter by opening chests.

Edited September 10, 2012 by CR-S0I