FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Narga_Rocks]

Lines are drawn everywhere when it comes to FE tier lists depending on how people see it. The line of "get the absolute minimum turn count" that people seemed to want is the main reason I'm no longer editing this list.

Why is Life's line such a bad one? He's merely taking a broader look at what a certain unit can do with a resource. However, because it's not the absolute best use of said resource, you deny it. What becomes the point of this list? Where is discussion value when the "best way" has been determined and everyone fits neatly into their proper slot on the list based on one single way to get through the game?

There's a pretty big gap between Sain with the thing and Kent with the thing, though. His line isn't consistent. He just draws it wherever he feels like on a case by case basis. If Kent was at least closer...

I mean, we are talking like Boyd with a wing compared to Titania or Haar. Not Boyd(T). Boyd(N). If we were looking at Boyd(T) vs Haar and Titania for 1 of 2 wings, I'd say fine. It's reasonable to consider what Boyd(T) can do with that wing. Boyd(N)? No way jose. This isn't lowest turncount possible. This is reasonable resource distribution. Unless of course he'd like to actually take the time to counter what SDS is saying rather than go off on everything I say like he's too trigger-happy to pay attention to the deeper point involved here.

[dondon151]

Why do you need a promoted unit to kill Lundgren? Erk and Lucius can deal pretty decent damage with a few levels under their belt, and Lyn doubles him with effective damage and crit.

Lucius does 4 x2 at base to Lundgren's 35 HP and is OHKO'd without any HP or def procs (so 2HKO'd mostly). Lyn is OHKO'd by Silver Lance (27 atk) until 12/0 on average.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I've wanted Kent > Lowen for a long time anyway, as Lowen has an even worse time of offense as Kent, whose STR isn't anything special. Sure, he's a defensive behemoth, but his offense is sorely lacking in comparison, and even though he's way, WAY more durable, he doesn't make the best use of that durability.

I'm not objecting because it's not the "best way", I'm objecting because Sain is balls out awesome with the Crest, and Kent is just balls. Want a comparison? I'll be cordial and say that they're both 14/2. No, Kent is not getting the Energy Ring, because while I'm willing to handwave a slight slowdown, I'm not willing to handwave twice the turns in Ch10. I'll even put up a comparison next to Marcus.

14/2 Sain:

32.2 HP

17.4 STR

9.9 SKL

12.6 SPE

8.9 LCK

10.8 DEF

3.8 RES

11 CON

14/2 Kent:

33.9 HP

12.6 STR

14 SKL

14.3 SPE

4.8 LCK

10.5 DEF

5.5 RES

11 CON

xx/1 Marcus:

31 HP

15 STR

15 SKL

11 SPE

8 LCK

10 DEF

8 RES

11 CON

Okay, so let's look at the difference.

Kent's leads: 1.7 HP, 4.1 SKL, 1.7 SPE, 1.7 RES

Sain's Leads: 4.8 STR, 4.1 LCK, .3 DEF

Okay, so Sain has a plain lead in Strength, and will also have better Lance rank than Kent (Kent will have better sword rank, but that's less useful). Let's look at how they stack up to enemies in the coming chapters. Assuming use of Iron for Ch. 16, since likelihood is you won't have time to buy weapons with Sain/Kent AND move out and be useful.

Kent's options:

Iron Lance: 19 Mt, 14 AS

Steel Lance: 22 Mt, 12 AS

Javelin: 18 Mt, 14 AS

Iron Sword: 17 Mt, 14 AS

Steel Sword: 20 Mt, 14 AS

Sain's options:

Iron Lance: 24 Mt, 12 AS

Steel Lance: 27 Mt, 10 AS

Javelin: 23 Mt, 12 AS

Iron Sword: 22 Mt, 12 AS

Steel Sword: 25 Mt, 12 AS

Ch. 16:

Archers: 24 HP, 4/5 Def, 6 (4 for Steel) AS

Both cleanly ORKO, so irrelevant.

Cavaliers: 26-28 HP, 6-8 Def, 6-7 AS

Both double, but Kent can't ORKO higher-end Cavaliers, as he can do a maximum of 26 damage to 6 Def cavaliers. The Steel Sword Cavalier has 28 HP and 8 Def, so Kent is unable to ORKO with Iron (deals 12 damage per hit). Sain has no problem ORKOing every single Cavalier on the map, and can do it with a Javelin, no less.

Mages: 21 HP, 3 Def, 6 AS

Sain OHKOs with Iron Lance! This is a big damn deal, as these suckers pack a punch (14 atk to res), so not taking a counter against Mages is awesome.

Mercenaries: 23 HP, 5 Def, 9-10 AS

Probably Kent's only solid win. Sain actually OHKOs them with a Steel Lance, though, so if you're using Sain it would be worth shipping a Steel Lance over to him. The top merc can't be OHKOed by Sain, though, due to 26 HP.

Myrmidons: 21 HP, 3 Def, 11-13 AS

Sain wins here, as he OHKOs with Iron Lance and Kent cannot double them. Hell, he OHKOs at range with a Javelin! Awesome times.

Pegasus Knights: 20-22 HP, 4-5 Def, 3-7 AS

Both win here, as they both double and ORKO. Sain has a slight win due to OHKOing lower-end Pegasi with Iron, but those Pegasi are likely to be killed by the main force.

Bauker is irrelevant because you want Marcus to kill him.

Chapter 17

Archers:

Low: 24 HP, 4 Def, 6 AS

Mid: 25-26 HP, 4-5 Def, 6-7 AS

High: 26-27 HP, 5 Def, 6 AS

Both ORKO the low-end ones. Kent misses the ORKO on a 27 HP Archer, and this is actually a big deal because these are the archers that show up as reinforcements later in the map, so Sain wins here.

Cavaliers: 28 HP, 8 Def, 5 AS

Both double, but Kent fails to ORKO with Iron. As a result, Sain has a better ORKO chance due to superior accuracy with Iron, and Sain can also ORKO with a Javelin, which is significant because he doesn't have to take a counter.

Knights:

Low: 23-24 HP, 12-13 Def, 1-2 AS

Mid: 26 HP, 11 Def, 1 AS

High: 27 HP, 13 Def, 3 AS

Ooh, here's a biggie. Kent can't ORKO these guys at all. No chance. Sain actually ORKOs the middle knights with Iron, and cleanly ORKOs the high Knights with Steel. Sain clearly wins here.

Mages: 24 HP, 3 Def, 7 AS

Shaman: 23 HP, 4 Def, 6 AS

Both ORKO, but Sain can OHKO with Steel, preventing him from taking a counter. Awesome.

Nomad:

Low: 23 HP, 4 Def, 10 AS

High: 24 HP, 5-6 Def, 11 AS

Kent wins against the low-end ones since he can double with Javelin, but Sain can OHKO with Steel if he wishes, so it's a minimal win. Sain wins against the high-end ones since neither doubles, but Sain can nearly oneshot them and leave them easy for any other unit to clean up.

Sain has a significant win overall due to his higher Strength, and this actually continues throughout the game, as Kent is unlikely to gain levels fast enough to outstrip enemy durability gains. AS stays stagnant throughout the game, meaning that Kent's superior Speed growth is largely wasted with an early promotion, so having high Strength throughout the whole game ensures that Sain is *always* a top-tier combat unit. Sain will never be short on Strength, but Kent sure as hell will. Meanwhile, Sain also will never be short on AS, making Kent's Speed win a non-issue.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Narga_Rocks]

For the record, I'm not actually objecting to Kent > Lowen. Lowen does have availability on him (and durability I guess), but Kent has potential for actual offence. However, it is if you want to put Kent over Lowen due to this promotion idea that I object. If you (Life or whomever) thinks that Kent doesn't deserve to be > Lowen without this promotion, then I count that as someone in favour of Lowen > Kent whatever you may think about the legitimacy of the promotion idea.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm really not sure about Lowen and Kent altogether. They should definitely be adjacent, but Kent takes a long time to get his offense into gear while Lowen takes a long time to get up to full defensive prowess. It all comes down to what you think is more important, really- offense or defense. If you're using a whole pile of Cavaliers, then you probably want Kent for the offense. If you're using only Marcus and maybe Sain, then Lowen is more useful because he's better on his own where he can attract a lot of fire and soften up enemies for the "big charge" behind him.

[dondon151]

Marcus should be --/4 going into chapter 16, but that doesn't matter for the comparison.

Sain and Kent don't really get to do anything useful in chapter 16. Probably a better comparison would be chapter 19x where there's no way Kent will come close to 2HKOing knights at range.

[NTNP]

I would like to see Lyn over Rebecca. Considering Lyn Mode is being used, she should start with a considerably higher base than Rebecca, have similar usage post promotion but with Lyn having higher stats and better supports available to her as well.

[Radiant Dragon]

I agree that Rebecca is too high. I like Archers, but this game is NOT friendly to them at all.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, the archers are going to plummet pretty soon.

[Anouleth]

I don't think that Oswin should be above Hector. Exactly what chapters are Oswin better in? Doesn't exist in Chapter 11. Bad join position and movement in Chapter 13. Chapter 14 is Cavalier City. Chapter 16 is a bajillion forests and screw ferrying Oswin around (also, more cavaliers). 17 is enormous. 18 is the first arguable chapter. So if Oswin is only eking out a minor lead in earlygame and is getting crushed by Hector from then on (because his stats/movement are better and he promotes late rather than never), why is he higher?

Edited January 4, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Colonel M]

Bad join position and movement in Chapter 13.

He can stay on the RHS and help one of your scrubbier units that you're training improve. Obviously, Lowen is excluded from here, so chances are the only one is maybe Eliwood.

Chapter 14 is Cavalier City.

Not a big deal really. He can assassinate the RHS of the map and only require another unit (probably Bartre) to whack on the Pegasus Knight that Oswin weakens. Yes Hector can do this too, but you lose out on someone with Wolf Beil against Cavaliers.

(And for the record Oswin can have a -slightly- better positioning spot to reach the LHS faster).

Chapter 16 is a bajillion forests and screw ferrying Oswin around (also, more cavaliers).

If you're going for a quick clear by ferrying Marcus and Hector to the RHS, you need units that can brace the two Mercenaries while tossing a 2 range weapon to chip at the Thief. The person also has to brace for two Cavaliers (which IIRC Erk can't do), but I guess it is also true that you could lure a Cavalier toward Merlinus or Priscilla as well. Still, he's part of the reason you get the Red Gem.

18 is the first arguable chapter.

Did 13X and 15 suddenly disappear? Hector is not great in these maps. Good in 13X, but not spectacular. Hector in 15 is pretty much useful for the first turn to clear through the Soldiers and Armor Knights. The south side has nothing more but Swordies for reinforcements while the LHS has Fighters. It's either be inaccurate on one side or taking a spot from Guy (or Eliwood) on the other side. Oswin is one of the only people you have that can handle the bottom part of the map barring Marcus, though chances are he's going north and doing a sort of U-turn toward trapping the boss.

[sigurd773]

Why is Marcus anywhere near the top? He seems like one of the worst characters, as he is FE7's Jeigan, with very low growths.

Why would anyone ever use Matthew over Jaffar? Despite the fact that Matthew could be considered stronger assuming both are on the same level, because the Fell Contract is in 28x, they won't ever be on the same level really. You get Jaffar before that, meaning he has at least a 13 level lead, plus promotion gains.

Why is Nino so low? Of course she comes very late and must be fed kills, but 28.x is perfect for her to do a lot of catching up. Not only that, but at that point in the game, she should be one of your only unpromoted units, meaning that the combat exp goes farther when fed to her.

Lastly, can someone explain why they don't think it's important to cover the magic triangle, i.e., use Canas, the sole Dark user.

[Life]

Anouleth, before you reply, don't.

[Galenforcer]

Why is Marcus anywhere near the top? He seems like one of the worst characters, as he is FE7's Jeigan, with very low growths.

Why would anyone ever use Matthew over Jaffar? Despite the fact that Matthew could be considered stronger assuming both are on the same level, because the Fell Contract is in 28x, they won't ever be on the same level really. You get Jaffar before that, meaning he has at least a 13 level lead, plus promotion gains.

Why is Nino so low? Of course she comes very late and must be fed kills, but 28.x is perfect for her to do a lot of catching up. Not only that, but at that point in the game, she should be one of your only unpromoted units, meaning that the combat exp goes farther when fed to her.

Lastly, can someone explain why they don't think it's important to cover the magic triangle, i.e., use Canas, the sole Dark user.

Troll much? I won't even explain how wrong you are,

[Anouleth]

He can stay on the RHS and help one of your scrubbier units that you're training improve. Obviously, Lowen is excluded from here, so chances are the only one is maybe Eliwood.

Didn't consider this possibility.

Not a big deal really. He can assassinate the RHS of the map and only require another unit (probably Bartre) to whack on the Pegasus Knight that Oswin weakens. Yes Hector can do this too, but you lose out on someone with Wolf Beil against Cavaliers.

There are multiple units that can respond to the soldiers and knights. Like Dorcas+Bartre. Hector can deal great damage to the Cavaliers, something that Oswin cannot, and still has all the advantages that come with 5 movement over 4 movement.

If you're going for a quick clear by ferrying Marcus and Hector to the RHS, you need units that can brace the two Mercenaries while tossing a 2 range weapon to chip at the Thief. The person also has to brace for two Cavaliers (which IIRC Erk can't do), but I guess it is also true that you could lure a Cavalier toward Merlinus or Priscilla as well. Still, he's part of the reason you get the Red Gem.

I don't think he's necessary in the slightest, and I'd rather bring a person that can do something else after clearing out those enemies rather than struggle through forests at a pathetic 4 move. It should be obvious that Hector is a superior character in this map.

Did 13X and 15 suddenly disappear? Hector is not great in these maps. Good in 13X, but not spectacular. Hector in 15 is pretty much useful for the first turn to clear through the Soldiers and Armor Knights. The south side has nothing more but Swordies for reinforcements while the LHS has Fighters. It's either be inaccurate on one side or taking a spot from Guy (or Eliwood) on the other side. Oswin is one of the only people you have that can handle the bottom part of the map barring Marcus, though chances are he's going north and doing a sort of U-turn toward trapping the boss.

13x and 15 are both Defend chapters, so there is nothing you can do about how many turns you take. At best, Oswin is gaining more experience than Hector in these maps.

[sigurd773]

Troll much? I won't even explain how wrong you are,

Excuse me? If you have no intention of addressing my questions, isn't it you who is spamming?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Excuse me? If you have no intention of addressing my questions, isn't it you who is spamming?

When did you start getting involved in FE debating/what arguments have you read?

[sigurd773]

When did you start getting involved in FE debating/what arguments have you read?

I've never been involved in such a thing. I'm a rather casual FE player, coming to the board to see what other people's thoughts are on character choice for this game. There are no explanations as to the logic underlying the list, so it should not be surprising that some of us have some questions.

If there is a thread I can read that has already been written which answers such questions, I would appreciate it if you could point me to it, as I am quite new to the forums.

[Life]

If there is a thread I can read that has already been written which answers such questions, I would appreciate it if you could point me to it, as I am quite new to the forums.

Try here.

You're welcome.

[Galenforcer]

Excuse me? If you have no intention of addressing my questions, isn't it you who is spamming?

Fine, I'll go into detail.

Why is Marcus anywhere near the top? He seems like one of the worst characters, as he is FE7's Jeigan, with very low growths.

His bases are good and even with a little RNG screwage, he'll still kick ass. 8 MOV, weapon triangle control, A in Swords and Lances and B in Axes, comes near the beginning and goodish supports. Growths are his only fault, and you have stat boosters to help fix him up, if he falls behind. His major pwn for the first couple maps help save turns for tactics, and will let you use those turns later to help with EXP.

Why would anyone ever use Matthew over Jaffar? Despite the fact that Matthew could be considered stronger assuming both are on the same level, because the Fell Contract is in 28x, they won't ever be on the same level really. You get Jaffar before that, meaning he has at least a 13 level lead, plus promotion gains.

Silver Card and help early-game puts Matthew much higher than what Jaffar can do in like 7 or so chapters. Even without a promotion, Matthew is still better than Jaffar.

Why is Nino so low? Of course she comes very late and must be fed kills, but 28.x is perfect for her to do a lot of catching up. Not only that, but at that point in the game, she should be one of your only unpromoted units, meaning that the combat exp goes farther when fed to her.

She is taking valuable EXP we could give to better units and babying her takes a bunch of turns since she can't kill anything by herself. It's like switching Matthew's join time with Jaffar's join time, why bother?

Lastly, can someone explain why they don't think it's important to cover the magic triangle, i.e., use Canas, the sole Dark user.

Because dark tomes are expensive to use and rare to find. Not to mention Canas isn't that good.

If you need more explanations, I'm sure the other members can answer them.

[Life]

His bases are good and even with a little RNG screwage, he'll still kick ass. 8 MOV, weapon triangle control, A in Swords and Lances and B in Axes, comes near the beginning and goodish supports. Growths are his only fault, and you have stat boosters to help fix him up, if he falls behind. His major pwn for the first couple maps help save turns for tactics, and will let you use those turns later to help with EXP.

Silver Card and help early-game puts Matthew much higher than what Jaffar can do in like 7 or so chapters. Even without a promotion, Matthew is still better than Jaffar.

You know that this is unranked, correct? Your arguments aren't wrong, you're just aiming them at the wrong thing.

[Grace]

Why is Marcus anywhere near the top? He seems like one of the worst characters, as he is FE7's Jeigan, with very low growths.

Good bases, weapon ranks, movement advantage on everyone, what else am I missing? His bases can carry him through a good portion of the game. All these help for an efficient playthrough. Without Marcus, earlygame chapters are much harder to complete in a reasonable timeframe.

Why would anyone ever use Matthew over Jaffar? Despite the fact that Matthew could be considered stronger assuming both are on the same level, because the Fell Contract is in 28x, they won't ever be on the same level really. You get Jaffar before that, meaning he has at least a 13 level lead, plus promotion gains.

Way to ignore most of Matthew's existence. And he's good because of thief utility, not his combat. Matthew has, what, 17 chapters of availability on Jaffar (Plus LHM chapters). He's around longer to contribute toward completing maps. (Getting items, mostly.)

Why is Nino so low? Of course she comes very late and must be fed kills, but 28.x is perfect for her to do a lot of catching up. Not only that, but at that point in the game, she should be one of your only unpromoted units, meaning that the combat exp goes farther when fed to her.

Base level of 5, meaning at the very least, 5 levels to promotion. And early promoting her kills her leveling speed, hence her growths. But, unpromoted, she's likely to get OHKO'ed (not sure on enemy stats, but I'd imagine most would have 23+ Atk), and we also need to protect her at all times, likely slowing us down, hence, less efficient.

Lastly, can someone explain why they don't think it's important to cover the magic triangle, i.e., use Canas, the sole Dark user.

Anima works fine against other anima users. Anima beats light anyway, and Dark using enemies are few and far between. Besides, all enemy mages/shamans have the durability of wet paper against strong enough physical units. Hence, use physical units against mages, and the threat is removed. (I think that's why.)

That answer your questions?

EDIT: Ninja'ed.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Mist

[Galenforcer]

You know that this is unranked, correct? Your arguments aren't wrong, you're just aiming them at the wrong thing.

Opps. Well, I was blinded by how awesome Marcus and Matthew were to your team, I completely missed the point.

[Colonel M]

There are multiple units that can respond to the soldiers and knights. Like Dorcas+Bartre. Hector can deal great damage to the Cavaliers, something that Oswin cannot, and still has all the advantages that come with 5 movement over 4 movement.

Bartre has to grow levels in order to do so.

With the Knight and Soldiers, we also have to recall we're taking 5 of these shitheads at once, have to somehow clear the Armor Knight on the next turn, then brace for another impact with Pegasus Knights. No information on the Soldiers... but I'm guessing they have stats similar to the Armor Knights offensively. The Armor Knight has 14 Atk, and a 7 Dorcas has 33 HP | 4 Def. That's about a 4HKO, which is doable with a dodge, but also risky within the process. Oswin is a superior answer to the equation since he also doesn't require a Spd proc to double the Soldiers like Bartre does.

I don't think he's necessary in the slightest, and I'd rather bring a person that can do something else after clearing out those enemies rather than struggle through forests at a pathetic 4 move. It should be obvious that Hector is a superior character in this map.

Here, allow me to put it twice as bluntly. This is pretty much what Hector will do if you ship him on the right hand side of the map, and if you plan this out extensively:

- Kill the boss

That's it. There's no joking with what I'm saying either, that's all he does. There isn't much action after you're done with the Red Gem aside from maybe obtaining more CEXP.

13x and 15 are both Defend chapters, so there is nothing you can do about how many turns you take. At best, Oswin is gaining more experience than Hector in these maps.

While Defend maps, they are also crucial to still be beaten, correct? You still need Oswin's aid either way, and he's still making the chapter happen regardless. This isn't like 3-7 where you have the option to sit and twiddle your thumbs if you seriously wanted to. No, you have to defend from a slew of enemies until Marcus is done getting the gold from the village in 13X and Oswin being your best option on the bottom in 15.

Why is Marcus anywhere near the top? He seems like one of the worst characters, as he is FE7's Jeigan, with very low growths.

We're going to play a simple game here. Alright, here goes.

Marcus saves turns. Period. The # of those turns alone is absurd in comparison to your shitpile that is Nino.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tyranel M

[sigurd773]

Try here.

You're welcome.

Thank you. I will definitely give it a read.

Fine, I'll go into detail.

Why thanks. Was it so much to ask? By the way, I'm switching up the order of characters in your response...which will make sense as you read this post.

Canas

Because dark tomes are expensive to use and rare to find. Not to mention Canas isn't that good.

This seems like a pretty weak argument. First of all, as this is not a ranked list, the price of Dark tomes is pretty much irrelevant. There's ample gold available to give him as much as he needs. Ditto how "rare" dark tomes are. Why wouldn't you just stock up on them? As for him being not particularly good, I suppose the best way for me to respond to that is to ask...

- Is balance of physical characters and magic uses so unimportant in this game? If not, which mage would you use over Canas?

- Is coverage of the magic triangle so unimportant?

Also, his DEF seems a bit high for a mage, which is nice.

Nino

She is taking valuable EXP we could give to better units and babying her takes a bunch of turns since she can't kill anything by herself. It's like switching Matthew's join time with Jaffar's join time, why bother?

Why bother? Umm...because she's good, and because at join time, your promoted units exp growth is quite low? I'm not saying that she's a top-tier character of anything, but she seems worthy of consideration at the very least.

Marcus and Matthew

His bases are good and even with a little RNG screwage, he'll still kick ass. 8 MOV, weapon triangle control, A in Swords and Lances and B in Axes, comes near the beginning and goodish supports. Growths are his only fault, and you have stat boosters to help fix him up, if he falls behind. His major pwn for the first couple maps help save turns for tactics, and will let you use those turns later to help with EXP.

Silver Card and help early-game puts Matthew much higher than what Jaffar can do in like 7 or so chapters. Even without a promotion, Matthew is still better than Jaffar.

Ah, this certainly clears a lot up...apparently the criteria for this list are not what I imagined them to be (and yes, I did read the Ranking FAQ). To me, it seems a matter of course that one will be leaning on Marcus and Matthew early on, and, in the case of Matthew, until quite late (sadly). I had assumed that characters higher on the list are more worthy of investing experience in so to use for the last few chapters of the game, your 'final team', if you will. I understand and agree with what you're saying about Marcus and Matthew, but it seems like something of a non sequitor for them to be be ranked highly because of it - because they are characters you want to MINIMIZE the amount of experience they gain, right?

Mist: I had no idea people were so concerned with "efficiency". Your remarks made good sense in light of that.

I'd also love to hear how many levels people are gaining for their promoted characters after 28 which Nino is stealing. Oh wait, efficiency..hmm, doesn't sound very fun, does it?

Edited January 5, 2011 by Narga_Rocks