Finally making my own, personal, rating topic/tier list.

[Snowy_One]

It DOES matter. The point is to nail people on mistakes. Like when I nailed you on the fact that Nephenee's high Spd capping out early means absolutely zilch. It's like KOT trying to prove that Nino is better than Pent because she doubles more endgame bosses (and I'm talking last chapter bosses). He forgot the fact that 1x2 hits is still only 2 damage. Same thing with you.

I was unaware that stating a hypothetical about how one unit can match the MT of another without even wielding a weapon was in the same category as someone trying to prove one character better than another via doubling.

[Life]

I was unaware that stating a hypothetical about how one unit can match the MT of another without even wielding a weapon was in the same category as someone trying to prove one character better than another via doubling.

I mentioned A and B (neither are alike and I never claimed them to be alike). I said B is like C. So you say A is like C? Huh?

EDIT: Just so you know, I was actually talking about the fact that you refused to acknowledge that I was wrong about Boyd's Move. Go back and look at WHAT I quoted.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Tangerine

[Snowy_One]

*sigh* It's late and I honestly didn't care about the movement issue as the point I was trying to make was independent of it. I'm sorry for being sleepy and ignoring that?

[Dark Sage]

On another note, this isn't a tier list. This is a character ranking topic. There's a difference.

[Life]

*sigh* It's late and I honestly didn't care about the movement issue as the point I was trying to make was independent of it. I'm sorry for being sleepy and ignoring that?

Good. Now explain to me these two things.

1) Why you think Nephenee's capping of Spd actually means something.

2) Why you compared Nasir's Mt to Boyd's Mt and then called Nasir "weak". So he's not Boyd. Big deal. Boyd's got nowhere near the flat-out durability that Nasir has. Even banded, that's 56 HP, 26 Def and 29 Res. Motherfucking Bryce 4HKOs him. There are SMs who neverHKO Nasir in the final chapter. If something's got 36 or lower Atk, they don't even 5HKO him. For the record, that's 2 Dragons, a single General, Bryce and Ashnard who hit that. Gatrie and Brom are the only people who match that kind of durability and this is after both have made it to 20/20 (since they need all the HP they can get). Tauroneo's HP is too low to matter, even with the KW.

I don't get the ranking for Nasir. OK, he's around for 2 chapters. But he's a defensive beast for those two chapters. NOTHING kills him. Maybe Ashnard but Ashnard kills everyone.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kefka

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

It's like KOT trying to prove that Nino is better than Pent because she doubles more endgame bosses (and I'm talking last chapter bosses). He forgot the fact that 1x2 hits is still only 2 damage. Same thing with you.

Hey, I said that (or meant to say) unless Nino is doing something like 3 or less damage per hit on bosses (and I was honestly too lazy to include a RES analysis), she ends up beating Pent in offense (because Pent has like a 2 MAG lead on her, mainly due to him being 4 levels above her most playthroughs). And for the characters who don't have something stupid like 30 RES (Ursula/Kenneth), she usually does beat him in combat. A more valid complaint (which I can't dispute at all) is the fact that Athos + Luna rocks combat so hard that it basically relegates Nino + Hector to killing Darin in low turning Final, but she still ends up doing like 11x2 damage to him at 20/7 whereas Pent does like 13x1 at 20/11 or maybe 15x1 with Elfire (which will tank his avoid, esp. compared to Nino).

And notice I never said she was BETTER than Pent, I said she was about equal on S rank clears when trained because she nets you padding on experience rank (guestimating around 800-1k XP) for training her and her combat, when trained, tends to be slightly better, as opposed to Pent's staff ultility (specifically talking about Final here), which one could argue may even be possibly done by a healer with A rank in staves, depending on the range of Warp/Rescue necessary to pull it off (and I'm not sure what range would be necessary, but Final isn't a massive map).

I then went on to point out that you'd probably be better off training Nino (if possible/feasible...I'm going to try it/test it out on my S rank HHM run) and replacing Serra with Pent for end-game, as the experience gain from training Nino will beat out the extra combat experience Serra will gain, and Pent is essentially Serra with a better magic type (anima versus light), vastly better combat for the levels you'll expect Serra to hit in a HM run, and with better CON to boot. And by the time of the game where you'd want to replace Serra with Pent (past CoD), she's at a high enough level that you could always field her in Light for an extra staff user if necessary without problems. She should be promoted by then.

...I'm not going to hijack this thread with a discussion that's run its course; I just felt like defending myself here. If you have problems with any of my logic (and I'm sure somebody does), just yell at me on the topic in which this unholy argument began.

As for the whole Boyd discussion, I think I understand what Snowy meant, and I'm not sure it's completely fair to yell at him over stupid/faulty wording...although I think you meant he'd have 30 ATK before weapon MT is taken into account by 20/20 (not 35, which I think you said, unless I'm forgetting something here, because he caps STR @ 30). My big problem with Nasir is more that he comes is so damn late that it's hard to use him extensively, and while he's a defensive beast, PoR isn't hard enough that he can really take advantage of it too much. Still, it's very hard to rank Nasir THAT low...Ena may come close to that, but she's frankly a suckier version of Nasir that the game throws at you to put salt on the wound of not killing the Black Knight.

EDIT: Ah, you included supports in the 35 ATK. Makes more sense, I guess.

EDIT2: As for Neph's speed, while you can argue that she's rocking nice avoid, PoR enemies, like FE7 enemies, are not exactly known for being blindingly fast, except a select few in endgame (who have a decent 19-23 AS). Neph's big issue is when you start asking that fundamental question: If I can double everything with Neph or double almost everything with somebody with lower speed but noticeably more ATK (I'm thinking Boyd here), why choose Neph? It's not so much Neph is bad statistically, it's more that her stat profile doesn't mesh with the enemies in-game. Neph's later jointime basically means your party's probably to the point where many people are doubling already. Neph doesn't suck, and she's fun to use, but she isn't top tier material for a variety of reasons.

EDIT3: Forgive me if I'm missing the proper context of this thread. I haven't been in SF long enough to know Snowy.

EDIT4: I keep on worrying something small and insigificant I'm going to say will blow up into a 7 page argument. Hopefully I can salvage not being relegated to "crazy uncle" status.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Life]

EDIT2: As for Neph's speed, while you can argue that she's rocking nice avoid, PoR enemies, like FE7 enemies, are not exactly known for being blindingly fast, except a select few in endgame (who have a decent 19-23 AS). Neph's big issue is when you start asking that fundamental question: If I can double everything with Neph or double almost everything with somebody with lower speed but noticeably more ATK (I'm thinking Boyd here), why choose Neph? It's not so much Neph is bad statistically, it's more that her stat profile doesn't mesh with the enemies in-game. Neph's later jointime basically means your party's probably to the point where many people are doubling already. Neph doesn't suck, and she's fun to use, but she isn't top tier material for a variety of reasons.

This is almost as bad as Snowy's point, KoT.

Forget everyone else for a moment. We're talking about JUST Nephenee. What does Neph have? Overkill Spd and sufficient parameters across the rest of the board. That "fundamental question" only gets asked in Tier lists since that's comparing Nephenee's performance to everyone else's. Not here.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Tangerine

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

This is almost as bad as Snowy's point, KoT.

Forget everyone else for a moment. We're talking about JUST Nephenee. What does Neph have? Overkill Spd and sufficient parameters across the rest of the board. That "fundamental question" only gets asked in Tier lists since that's comparing Nephenee's performance to everyone else's. Not here.

Title of thread: "Finally making my own, personal, tier list."

My apologies if I took it out of context (I'm being sincere here, not sarcastic). I thought Snowy was using rankings to justify each character's position in said list.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Life]

My apologies if I took it out of context (I'm being sincere here, not sarcastic). I thought Snowy was using rankings to justify each character's position in said list.

Ah. Welcome to Serenes Forest, in that case. He's not and most people here think he's delusional. Including me but I kinda have proof... which reminds me that I need to finish that debate.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Ah. Welcome to Serenes Forest, in that case.

Heh, I think my first or second thread was the whole "Why U Hatin' On Meg?" fiasco. That was probably almost as "good" of a welcome anybody could get to SF, as it quickly introduced me to the board's vets (and gave you a sig).

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Snowy_One]

I apologize for the delay in reviews. Getting ready for the holidays and all. I have decided to change the title of this topic. This is a character rating topic as I am sitting down and I am giving out ratings for characters based on three categories... however this is also a tier list in that I am putting the characters in a defined order as well as trying my best to make this list valid for a multitude of playstyles and hoping to encourage healthy debate (not nitpicking, DEBATE) about character rankings. This is why I made it three ratings instead of one rating. Even if you disagree with the overall ranking, there are a multitude of other ways to rank the characters. Don't enjoy speed playthroughs and prefer to clear maps and get units to 20/20, then the flexibility and customization ratings are more useful to you for example. So please, remember to choose the rating that applies to you. It is not impossible for a character to get a (5/0/0) and be ranked just below a (4/1/1), but that doesn't mean that the latter is better for a speed play through than the former.

Anyways, next character is... Makalov!

Makalov... Uggg... I will admit right off the bat that I simply do not like him. It may be because of his hair, or his bum-brother attitude, but something about him just rubs me the wrong way. I will try to not let that get in the way of a proper review. Anyways, Makalov joins at level 10 in the middle of chapter 14 and his bases are... awful. He comes with only 9 STR (Mia has the same amount at the same level and has had time to build supports and is likely higher-leveled) and 10 SPD (Ilyana has this much SPD at the same level and may, very well, be higher leveled than him once again). His only real saving grace at joining is his DEF clocking in at 10... which is less 'impressive' and more 'average' for a cavalry unit (only Astrid has lower). He joins in a bad part of the map where it is difficult to recruit him (you need Marica there as well as potentially another unit) and his following chapter is a sand-map where his mounted movement turns outright against him. His innate skill is garbage (IIRC, Gamble can only be used with a remote degree of effectiveness by a sniper/SM and even there it is iffy) and... uggg... It is understandable why he is the second lowest-ranked paladin if only due to his rocky start.

Yet, if you can manage to pull past that, either with Bexp or careful kill-feeding, he can be redeemed. His growth rates are very strong and he turns out to be one of the best paladins in terms of stats. Upon promotion he gains access to axes which will aid him out well and Sol which is one of the better skills in the game. There is always a desire for more mounted units, and being mounted is a very strong boost. His support list is lacking (all wind, Haar won't even be around until 23, Bastion... is Bastion, and Astrid is his only really viable support), but his one support is kind of useful (duel AVO boost and a minor defense boost).

I really don't know how to call this one. I guess this will be the first time I actually break it down and explain the reason why in this topic.

SPD 4.5: Makalov is a potentially powerful mounted unit who will be a great addition to the team once he gets up to par. However, he's not around until 16 basically (since 15 is so bad for mounted units) which hurts his speed rating since he won't be around to help the team move faster for quite a bit. Even after 16, he won't really take off until post-promotion when his growths have started to kick in and he gets axes. If he had come just a few chapters earlier, he might have gotten a 5, but I just don't think a unit who basically isn't even usable until 16 should get a 5 (if someone can provide a example where he really helps out in the later game towards a speed goal, I will gladly jump this up to a 5)

Flexability 4: Makalov is not inflexable. However that does not mean he is automatically flexible either. On the combat field, his mounted movement serves as a huge boon to helping the team out. His role has already been filled four times by Titania, Oscar, Kieran, and Astrid. This does not mean it is a role that cannot be filled again though. Makalov's strong stats mean that he can fulfill these roles with ease once he gets started.

Customization 3.5: Makalov isn't horrible in terms of customization options, but he isn't amazing either. His only really useful support is with Astrid (who admittedly wants the support and makes use of it, but still...) and all his supporters are wind-based. Bastion is pretty much out and Haar isn't around until 23 and it will be 26 before he gets a B-Makalov (I've always wondered why he doesn't support with Marcia. Come to think of it, Ike doesn't support with Mist either and the brothers don't support each other. Odd). Though Makalov lacks any potentially strong skills, his access to Sol and capability to utilize two weapon types helps him out on the customization end. He needs Bexp, but can take the ward/a band when getting it to help him out.

Overall: 12. Makalov isn't awful, but he has a rocky start and is basically useless until midway through the game. Even though he is the 'best' paladin towards the end, he's still just another paladin though and doesn't do anything truly special. Titania has her early-game dominance, Oscar is strong in the early game and has great AVO, Kieran has good AVO and early axes, Astrid has Paragon, Makalov has... a angry sister and ever-growing gambling debts.

[Mekkah]

(I've always wondered why he doesn't support with Marcia. Come to think of it, Ike doesn't support with Mist either and the brothers don't support each other. Odd).

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/support_bonus.htm

[Snowy_One]

I know about the bonuses. I still find it odd that there is no actual hard supports between any of the sibling/relative pairs in the game (unless you count Titania as a replacement mom).

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

as a makalov fan i must admit you did a very good job at making an non biased view point of an favorite of mine.

i overall don't see anything too wrong or out of place.

[Anouleth]

I agree with your Makalov rating, but I question the point of the "customisation" option. Supports and skills really don't make a big impact in this game, and Makalov's stats are excellent enough that he just... doesn't really need either. So I don't think that having weak supports or skills is a mark against him.

I also don't really agree with giving Makalov the same rating for flexibility as Nephenee. Makalov's higher movement and axess access to axes and other weapon types should surely mean he can be a part of more playstyles than Nephenee can, right?

[Snowy_One]

I agree with your Makalov rating, but I question the point of the "customisation" option. Supports and skills really don't make a big impact in this game, and Makalov's stats are excellent enough that he just... doesn't really need either. So I don't think that having weak supports or skills is a mark against him.

Remember, you also play in a high-movement style focused on reaching the end-goal ASAP where most supports are considered 'nice, but non-essential'. To someone playing at a slower pace (not necessarily turtling though), the supports will be active much more and, as a result, have a bigger impact on playstyle.

I also don't really agree with giving Makalov the same rating for flexibility as Nephenee. Makalov's higher movement and axess access to axes and other weapon types should surely mean he can be a part of more playstyles than Nephenee can, right?

Not an unfair assumption. However, Makalov has to deal with coming in at a low level and then being absent basically for the next chapter, meaning a lot of Bexp or kill-feeding will be needed to get him up to scratch with the rest of the team. Nephenee, meanwhile, only needs a forged weapon and is much closer to 'out of the box ready' than Makalov (Nephenee's STR issues can be fixed with a forge, Makalov needs to grow levels to overcome his issues as they are related to his low bases relative to the rest of the team). If Makalov joined earlier or had better bases, I would gladly give him a higher flexibility score as he would be capable of filling the role of a mounted unit earlier. As-is, he needs to grow before he can fulfill his flexibility jobs.

However, I also admit I'm still getting the hang of my own rating system myself. I'm trying to make it so that flexibility relates only to how they function in-combat while customization refers to how they handle out of combat (ergo, how many options they have have, what they can handle and take, and such) and I DO see your point.

[Colonel M]

Remember, you also play in a high-movement style focused on reaching the end-goal ASAP where most supports are considered 'nice, but non-essential'. To someone playing at a slower pace (not necessarily turtling though), the supports will be active much more and, as a result, have a bigger impact on playstyle.

I'm going to be honest, how does this really matter? If Makalotoflov just has Sol... he doesn't really need Supports. From what I recall, he ORKOes and probably won't die often anyhow. He has 39 HP | 17 Def at 20/1 anyhow. In Chapter 21, there's a Warrior with 29 Atk. Most enemies barely break past 25 anyway. God forbid if he gets hit while equipping Swords he's 4HKOed by the same Warrior.

[Snowy_One]

I'm going to be honest, how does this really matter? If Makalotoflov just has Sol... he doesn't really need Supports. From what I recall, he ORKOes and probably won't die often anyhow. He has 39 HP | 17 Def at 20/1 anyhow. In Chapter 21, there's a Warrior with 29 Atk. Most enemies barely break past 25 anyway. God forbid if he gets hit while equipping Swords he's 4HKOed by the same Warrior.

There are only four Occult scrolls in the game of which one won't come until Tauroneo and one until chapter 27. Six people have really strong and solid skills that they can get from it (Ike, Titania, Oscar, Kieran, Makalov, Astrid, and Geoffry). Even discounting the latter due to Paragon (not going to argue which is better for Geoffry), there are only three scrolls and five people who can use them well. Even if we further discount Ike on the grounds that he's taking wrath/resolve, that's four people for three scrolls until 27. There is a very real possibility that Makalov won't get Sol.

Besides, a unit who can aid his team out in more ways (especially if those ways are independent of his actual stats) is inherently more flexible than one who can only aid in one or two ways. I would remind you that flexibility is different than speed as well and the point of the flexibility score is, basically, team support and similar things. Just because a unit is powerful does not mean that they will get a high flexibility score.

[dondon151]

There is a very real possibility that Makalov won't get Sol.

If we rolled dice to determine our assignment of Occult skills, even a 75% chance of Makalov getting Sol is way higher than the chance of most other units getting mostly any other resource. Like unit A getting a support with unit B - what are the chances that unit B would be deployed given unit A (hint: if there are 21 possible units and only 11 deployment slots, the likelihood is 0.5)? Yet even now, in debates, some people still stuck in 2009 (like you) so casually assume supports are given to a unit while at the same time, you assert that there is a significant likelihood that a unit may not get a relatively uncontested resource.

This is disregarding the fact that it's absolutely stupid to assign skills based on a roll of the dice. Any actual player will give Makalov Sol if he deems that Makalov needs Sol. If he doesn't, then all the power to him; it means that he's good enough that the absence of Sol doesn't matter.

[Snowy_One]

If we rolled dice to determine our assignment of Occult skills, even a 75% chance of Makalov getting Sol is way higher than the chance of most other units getting mostly any other resource. Like unit A getting a support with unit B - what are the chances that unit B would be deployed given unit A (hint: if there are 21 possible units and only 11 deployment slots, the likelihood is 0.5)?

For the sake of fairness and unbiased reviews, I am not assuming any one unit will be or will not be deployed. I know I haven't held true to this seeing my immense distaste for Devdan and Bastion (One just creeps me the hell out and the other is such a late joiner that supporting him is pointless). Given the choice, I would rather say 'Unit X won't support Y because it is a bad support' than 'unit X won't support Y because Y won't likely be played'. It just figures that two of the three people I absolutely dislike discussing supports about happened to also support the two characters I've reviewed who have supports (Devdan, Bastion, and Lucia. Devdan I highly dislike and will probably avoid reviewing until I feel more certain of myself. Bastion and Lucia join horribly late and are pretty bleh. I don't dislike Elincia though for some odd reason. I think it's the notion of the flying healer.)

Yet even now, in debates, some people still stuck in 2009 (like you) so casually assume supports are given to a unit while at the same time, you assert that there is a significant likelihood that a unit may not get a relatively uncontested resource.

Well, why wouldn't you let a unit get a higher support?

This is disregarding the fact that it's absolutely stupid to assign skills based on a roll of the dice. Any actual player will give Makalov Sol if he deems that Makalov needs Sol. If he doesn't, then all the power to him; it means that he's good enough that the absence of Sol doesn't matter.

What about the possibility that the player decides it's a better investment to spend the Sol scroll on his stronger units and leave Makalov dust in relation to them? Sides, if he's weak enough to need Sol, that would be a mark against his customization score.

[dondon151]

Well, why wouldn't you let a unit get a higher support?

Oh, I don't know, because his support partners are not being deployed?

What about the possibility that the player decides it's a better investment to spend the Sol scroll on his stronger units and leave Makalov dust in relation to them? Sides, if he's weak enough to need Sol, that would be a mark against his customization score.

What about the possibility that the player doesn't want to give Mia a Sonic Sword or a Steel Forge at all? What about the possibility that Ilyana's support partners all spontaneously died? What about the possibility that Marcia gets no BEXP because for whatever reason we think that Brom needs it more?

Never mind that some of these possibilities may only exist for the most brain dead of players. I don't understand the point of a rating that essentially describes how many times you can shoot yourself in the foot before it has to be amputated.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I agree with your Makalov rating, but I question the point of the "customisation" option. Supports and skills really don't make a big impact in this game, and Makalov's stats are excellent enough that he just... doesn't really need either. So I don't think that having weak supports or skills is a mark against him.

I also don't really agree with giving Makalov the same rating for flexibility as Nephenee. Makalov's higher movement and axess access to axes and other weapon types should surely mean he can be a part of more playstyles than Nephenee can, right?

i didn't notice Nephy have the same Flexibilty rating as Makalov...in which case i have to agree with Anouleth here.

it would either give makalov an higher score or Nephy a lower one, which sounds right

[Snowy_One]

Oh, I don't know, because his support partners are not being deployed?

For the sake of fairness and unbiased reviews, I am not assuming any one unit will be or will not be deployed. I know I haven't held true to this seeing my immense distaste for Devdan and Bastion (One just creeps me the hell out and the other is such a late joiner that supporting him is pointless). Given the choice, I would rather say 'Unit X won't support Y because it is a bad support' than 'unit X won't support Y because Y won't likely be played'.

What about the possibility that the player doesn't want to give Mia a Sonic Sword or a Steel Forge at all? What about the possibility that Ilyana's support partners all spontaneously died? What about the possibility that Marcia gets no BEXP because for whatever reason we think that Brom needs it more?

Never mind that some of these possibilities may only exist for the most brain dead of players. I don't understand the point of a rating that essentially describes how many times you can shoot yourself in the foot before it has to be amputated.

I am assuming the player has a general familiarity with the series and is informed as to what each character either needs or does not need in order to become usable as well. He may not be playing with the goal of a LTC in mind, but whatever his goal is, he knows how to accomplish it. If I was a car salesman and you ask me for the best car on the lot, I can point to several and list their advantages and disadvantages and let you decide which one is the one that best suits your needs, be it gas mileage, passenger accommodation, price, or trunk space.

I would also like it if you didn't talk about characters I have not yet rated in-topic.

i didn't notice Nephy have the same Flexibilty rating as Makalov...in which case i have to agree with Anouleth here.

it would either give makalov an higher score or Nephy a lower one, which sounds right

Given the choice, I would rather drop Nephenee, though the two are different. Nephenee gets her flexibility score for her out of the box usability, fairly solid stats, great skill, and so-forth. If she was mounted, she'd probably be netting a 4.5 or a 5 in flexibility. Makalov has the advantage of being mounted, axes, and Sol, but also has the downside of joining later, a worthless skill (at least on him), being useless until 16, and being badly underleveled. That's why their scores were the same. Nephenee, while having only two main 'downsides' (not being mounted and no axes) also has quite a few upsides. Makalov, while having two big upsides, also has a poor joining (which limits what he can do),

[Anouleth]

Remember, you also play in a high-movement style focused on reaching the end-goal ASAP where most supports are considered 'nice, but non-essential'. To someone playing at a slower pace (not necessarily turtling though), the supports will be active much more and, as a result, have a bigger impact on playstyle.

I'm not saying that they don't have an impact based on Makalov's movement. I'm saying that they don't have an impact based on the fact that Makalov is a baller with great stats in every area. If Makalov is 2HKOing enemies and never at risk of death and doubling enemies, then what does it matter if he doesn't get a support? Sure, Titania will have supports and Makalov won't, but Makalov will still be beating or at least matching her statistically, even with the supports taken into account.

I don't know if Nephenee really has "out of the box" usability. She always seemed pretty meh to me initially and usually needed BEXP. While her start isn't quite as bad as Makalov's, it's still bad.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Anouleth

[I.M. Gei]

I guess Snowy, too, subscribes to the view that tier lists/rating topics should be, in Int's words, mushy psychological experiments attempting to predict what the average Joe Blow will do.