Dark Sage Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Supports aren't that useful no matter what style of play you're doing. In a LTC style of play, support partners aren't always in range (since many don't match move) or in play (Ilyana isn't too unlikely to be in play, but you shouldn't count on her being there to help Mia out for example). In a slower playstyle, units are almost certainly higher leveled and more capable of killing enemies and have less trouble of dying. If a unit ORKOs and never dies, supports are useless to them. Why should I care if Oscar gets a h4x avoid boost from Ike if Oscar isn't even dying in the first place? In this case, supports basically just give a bigger number in certain stats without doing anything particularly useful. Now then: I guess Snowy, too, subscribes to the view that tier lists/rating topics should be, in Int's words, mushy psychological experiments attempting to predict what the average Joe Blow will do. This constant parroting of another person's opinions and using their exact phrasing is getting really old. Interceptor is a cool guy and sometimes, we who discuss FE and have seen him on tier lists quote him on certain issues, but we don't just regurgitate whatever he says constantly, especially when it contributes nearly nothing to the discussion. It's not at the level of Inui ("Reikken/CATS/HJ said this so I automatically quote and agree with them") but it's something to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.M. Gei Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Alright... Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 If anything, if we assume supports likely in play, Makalov is very likely to get the Occult Scroll. - Ike and Oscar have dual Earth. Durability is of 0 concern, going at Snowy pace. - Kierean also has Oscar. - Astrid would lose out on Paragon, which gives her easy street leveling anyway. Besides, she can get juices with BEXP at a small cost and still have decent avoid with her innate Speed. She supports Makalov too, which means she gets a little extra. - Geoffrey comes too late, and he doesn't really want to sacrifice Paragon anyway. It is pretty much between Makalov and Titania for their Occult Scroll. Ole doesn't really need Aether, and Astride losing Paragon wouldn't be the greatest thing on earth. Even if we add Astrid in the equation, and considering the possible opportunity cost that derives from the Occult Scrolls, Makalov getting the scroll is pretty likely anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 This constant parroting of another person's opinions and using their exact phrasing is getting really old. Interceptor is a cool guy and sometimes, we who discuss FE and have seen him on tier lists quote him on certain issues, but we don't just regurgitate whatever he says constantly, especially when it contributes nearly nothing to the discussion. It's not at the level of Inui ("Reikken/CATS/HJ said this so I automatically quote and agree with them") but it's something to fix. This. Fucking hell guys, have your own opinion for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 But... when people have their own opinions... that leads to ideas and new notions on how to do things! Those things are horrible for tier lists! We can't have that! ALL PEOPLE MUST PARROT! PARROT! AWK! SNOWY WANT A CRACKER! AWK! Anyways, M does bring up a good point. I'm not sure what to do with it though (it referring to the recent arguments, not just his post). Customization doesn't directly deal with how a unit handles in-combat, but rather how well they can make use of available resources and such. It's better for that score to have a large list of support options, even if the unit itself is pretty low-grade or overpowered to the point of not-needing them. Flexibility would increase though as being a likely Sol candidate helps there... Okay. I'll raise his flex score by .5 (I am going to put my foot down and say his late join time just flat-out means he cannot get a 5). I need to update the in-topic reviews as well and will do so eventually. Also, the RNG hates me as it wants me to review Ena next. Uggggg... Ena: Ena sucks. End review.*sigh*. I guess I have to do some more than that. Ena is a bad character, flat out. There is no other way to put it. She joins at the end of 27 if Ike loses to/runs from the BK as a 20/10 Dragon Laguz. Right there I could just end the review. At such a low level, getting her to a point where she would be 'on-par' (term used looser than a drunk prostitute) with the rest of the team would require between 5-10 levels of Bexp. Even then, she's not overly exceptional and has 6 movement. Most of the same problems that apply to Nasir apply to Ena as well, except while Ena is much easier to recruit, she also needs a load of Bexp to get up to the combat level Nasir would have been at. Sadly, she's not actually a 'bad' unit... if she had joined back at the end of 21. Renewal and Miracle, stats that can be... not as irredeemable as Nasir's, and such mean she might have made a good Laguz general (argue whatever you want about how good Generals are though). Sadly, the BEXP investment needed to put into her for the, at most, two chapters of usability kills her outright. Speed: 0: It's the same as Nasir. While she may be 'better' statistically, her late join, low movement, and the fact that she can very well miss out on half her usable playtime kills any real chance she has at a SPD rating. Unlike Nasir, she doesn't even have the comfort of maybe being on a underleveled team and their main powerhouse. That was pretty much the only reason he got a 1. Flexibility 0.5: Ena could actually have made a good tank, but with her late join-time, even that potential is squashed. I dislike giving her the same score as Nasir, but her only major use will be healing via Boon. Renewal and Miracle will not likely ever see action. Cust: 0: Do I even need to explain? Overall: 0/0.5/0. Ena is awful. End of story. Any Bexp spent on her is better spent on almost any other unit that you might be using who hasn't hit 20/20. Sadly, she might have actually been redeemable to a degree if she had joined earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Flexibility 0.5: Ena could actually have made a good tank, but with her late join-time, even that potential is squashed. I dislike giving her the same score as Nasir, but her only major use will be healing via Boon. Renewal and Miracle will not likely ever see action. Boon is not really useful either, or at least, I don't remember there being any Sleep staves in chapters 28 and Final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Boon is not really useful either, or at least, I don't remember there being any Sleep staves in chapters 28 and Final. There are Sleep Bishops in both C28 and Endgame in NM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 I actually agree with Anny here, but such a stink was raised about it earlier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I actually agree with Anny here, but such a stink was raised about it earlier... You're basically spot on with the review. Remember, I'm only anti-logic, not anti-Snowy. If you're right, you're right. I just don't understand the purpose of the Speed rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 But... when people have their own opinions... that leads to ideas and new notions on how to do things! Those things are horrible for tier lists! We can't have that! ALL PEOPLE MUST PARROT! PARROT! AWK! SNOWY WANT A CRACKER! AWK! Don't be so butthurt. Sadly, she's not actually a 'bad' unit... if she had joined back at the end of 21. Renewal and Miracle, stats that can be... not as irredeemable as Nasir's, and such mean she might have made a good Laguz general (argue whatever you want about how good Generals are though). Sadly, the BEXP investment needed to put into her for the, at most, two chapters of usability kills her outright. Wait, I'm confused. How would Ena beat out Nasir's stats? Ignoring the BEXP cost, if you compare the dragons at 20/20 (lol), Ena has a 2 str, 2 def, and 7 HP advantage, with Nasir winning anything else. He'd have on average 22.9 speed (meaning there's a chance he might be able to get 23 speed) which tends to double more things than Ena's 21 speed. They're both virtually unkillable anyway, so the defensive statistical advantage Ena has wouldn't matter, leaving a 2 AS vs a 2 Atk advantage. Personally I'd go with the AS there, meaning Nasir would always be better. Not that I disagree that both dragons are terrible, but you might want to change that part of the review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 I just don't understand the purpose of the Speed rating. Well, the intent is to gauge a unit based simply on the goal of beating the endgame A.S.A.P. For example, assume we had Warp-staves, but only a special unit (named Rhys 2) can wield them. Rhys 2 has poor stats, few if any supports, little to no combat skill, but can use the staves to instantly warp Ike/paladins to the boss. He would be invaluable for a Speed playthrough, but pretty useless outside of a LTC list. My next rating, Lethe, will be the first time I get to actually swing this about with any major weight. Lacking flexibility and customization due to her Laguz nature, but having a early joining time and lots of power when she joins, I expect her review scores to be something like (4/2/2). However, I admit, I'm still getting used to my own rating system and figuring out what everything means. It's easy to say 'Oh X means X', but gets a lot more difficult when you actually put it down in words, especially if you're of a less than popular opinion and/or have some people constantly hounding you over stupid things (Nasir/Ena's boon anf the Boyd 0STR thing in this topic alone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I'll probably crucify you if you make mistakes with Lethe. Just a friendly warning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 You or sage would crucify me if I made any mistakes anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 You or sage would crucify me if I made any mistakes anyways. You make an excellent point there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I am not worthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Alright. Thanksgiving and post-thanksgiving food poisoning is now over. Time to get back on track! Lethe! Lethe is... a very unique character. It would be very easy to justifiably rank her very high or very low depending on how you value certain factors. She joins early and is powerful, but cannot upgrade past what is essentially a WTN steel sword and has to work the the Laguz gauge and the issues it brings. What's more interesting for me is that, up until now, the characters I have ranked have been clearly good (Neph, Mak) or clearly bad (Nasir, Ena). Lethe is one who can be either really good or bad. Anyways, first a character overview. Joining in chapter 9 as a ally and then officially in 10 as a party member, Lethe is a powerful character in the early game. The only two people who can truly fight on par with her are Titania and her fellow Laguz, Mordi. Mordi, however, must wait several turns before shifting while Lethe shifts at the start of the chapter. From a sheer stat-focused view, she's every bit as good, even arguably better than, most sword-fighters in the game ending up with solid SM-esque stats before transform bonuses. Having higher move than them, she is actually far more usable than them... but... she has flaws and they are pretty big ones. Firstly, Lethe must work around the transform gauge. I'm sure the people reading this topic know full-well what it is, and for Lethe, it's a huge issue. It is, both figuratively and literally, the only way she can really fight. When she is unshifted, she in incapable of combat in any way, shape, or form making her a huge open target for all to hit. Her natural STR is low as well, meaning she needs the boost from her shift to fight well (her unshifted speed is questionable as well, capping out at 24). She has two ways around this. Either she can utilize the Laguz gems to keep herself shifted or she can use the demi-band. Now, as I would much rather say 'a unit can't have X because it doesn't help them very much' than 'a unit can't have X because Y uses it so much better' (before you harp, no this doesn't mean I won't, but given the choice, I would rather present why they are bad with it than say another unit has claim to it) I am not going to say 'Reyson has claim to them' or something. Rather, I would like to present this point. Even if we devoted all the gems to Lethe and assumed she needed only one use per chapter, there are only, like, six uses of the gems if memory serves, meaning only six chapters where she can shift back. At best this is cutting it very close, if not simply just not enough to remedy the problem. As for the demi-band, it cuts her stats in half, which she cannot afford as she loses 3 STR (a stat pretty low for her, so she needs every point) which is further accented by her second problem... Lethe cannot upgrade her claws. When she joins, they are on par with a steel sword in terms of power. That is fine for the time, possibly even a little bit above average, but in no way lacking. However, unlike claws, swords get upgraded and forged. The steel swords become silver swords or get forged, SM can wield specialized weapons like the Katti or Armorslayer. Lethe is stuck with her claws. Come late game, combined with her low STR, this is simply not enough to keep her up to scratch (pun not intended). Additionally, Lethe has no additional skills that allow her to close or overcome the gap that her weakness creates and no supports to aid her out. Between Ike, Jill, Muarim, and Ranulf, she has a weak support list overall. Jill is the only one she can count on and that is less 'the support being good' than 'only three supports and Haar isn't around for a looooong while'. Muarim and Ranulf are laguz as well and will be competing for the gems/band, not to mention Ranulf won't be around for a long time as well. Even if she managed to pull it off, none of her supports address her primary issue of simply lacking damage (max level. 21 + 6 (unbanded transform) + 8 = 35... Yea. That is without the demi band as well). Sooo... how does she stack up. Speed 4: With her early join time and early game power, early shifting, and the shortness of chapters limiting how much time she is untransformed, Lethe is actually pretty good here. Her early transform and great starting power allow her to aid out immensely towards completing chapters and since the goal is to complete the chapters as fast as possible, there is a very real chance the chapters will be completed before Lethe unshifts. I have no doubt that her strength will be useful for this goal and, when it starts to peter out, she will be replaced by the much more effective Paladins/fliers anyways. Flexibility 1.5: Lethe is not flexible. She has a limited amount of time to work with in any chapter before unshifting and needing to either take the band/gem to become useful once again, or become useless until she transforms back. Though her early-game power and high-movement allows her to be flexible for a time, eventually her lack of weapon upgrades catches up to her and shoves her harshly to the sidelines. She is fairly useless in later chapters and has to deal with transform issues throughout the game. Customization 1.5: Lethe lacks customization in every way imaginable. Not only are people who are desiring to use her stuck with the choice between giving her the band (which is both one-of-a-kind and reduces her STR) or working her gauge, but a poor support list and lack of weapon customization murders her outright. Her one saving grace here is that, unlike the dragons, Lethe's high movement make it likely that any customization put into her will actually see the light of day. Overall 7/15: Lethe is a character who can be really good or really bad depending on your goals. Speed? Good. Not speed? Bad. A 7/15 rating seems perfectly spot-on to me for her character, someone who can be really good or really bad depending on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 that sounds about right, the demi brand doesn't cut stats in half though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Lethe is an excellent recipient of the Smite manual as well, if I remember correctly, as her naturally large weight allows her to shove some very heavy targets. (Unless I misread the stats and calculations page, any non-Haar non-laguz unit while transformed, and units up to Marcia's weight while untransformed.) That grants her additional use if for some reason the chapter lasts past her initial transformed timespan, and I don't really know that aside from other laguz the Smite manual has much in the way of competition. For LTC play, you will always have a need for quality smiters as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'm pretty sure Lethe can't Shove/Smite any of the male mounted units as I noticed in a draft where I had her, Oscar, and Kieran. Can't Shove Jill, either. It may be a result of promotion, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 She can shove Marcia. Jill can't be shoved by Lethe no matter what, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'm pretty sure Lethe can't Shove/Smite any of the male mounted units as I noticed in a draft where I had her, Oscar, and Kieran. Can't Shove Jill, either. It may be a result of promotion, though. Then I must have misread something. Transformation gains listed female beasts as getting +15 con, which may not translate into +15 weight, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Then I must have misread something. Transformation gains listed female beasts as getting +15 con, which may not translate into +15 weight, or whatever. Yeah, it's confusing. Lethe does gain 15 con with transformation, but only 10 Wt. Lethe can shove Elincia, the Facon Knights, and female Paladins, but not the male Paladins or Wyvern Lords. Muarim (and Ranulf) are better Smite candidates. Untransformed Muarim can shove all of the promoted mounted units that Lethe can, but he can also shove the male Paladins and Jill when promoted. Ranulf can shove Elincia and the Falcon Knights untransformed plus all of the Paladins when transformed. Edited November 29, 2011 by aku chi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) I don't think I would count it for much anyways. The Smite scroll doesn't come until chapter 20 (which is pretty late for use), so for pretty much half the time Lethe's around she won't have access to it. It doesn't matter that much unless you have a specific strategy in mind anyways (remember, speed is LTC focused, but doesn't assume the player is using any one specific strategy) so it probably wouldn't help her score out. Not to mention the weight issues mentioned already. that sounds about right, the demi brand doesn't cut stats in half though. IIRC, it cuts them in half and rounds up any non-even numbers. So a transform bonus of 6 becomes 3, but a bonus of 5 is a 2.5, which is rounded up to also be 3. Edited November 29, 2011 by Snowy_One Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 IIRC, it cuts them in half and rounds up any non-even numbers. So a transform bonus of 6 becomes 3, but a bonus of 5 is a 2.5, which is rounded up to also be 3. It was his reading mistake, your info is correct. Speaking of which, you nailed Lethe almost spot on. The one thing I would definitely mention as a point for Lethe (and was wondering why you never harped on it in Lethe vs. Stefan) was the fact that Lethe has 9 Move and starts off transformed. That's a pretty big deal. Sure she can't fight starting like Turn 5 or so but she can quickly run ahead, be indestructible (like take out a good portion of the early attackers in Chapter 13 or so) and then retreat before she loses Cat status. Like hit and run. While she keeps the enemy occupied for about a turn or so, the infantry catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 i actully didn't know the demi brand rounded stats like that, learned something new. I think the issue with Lethe Transforming so quicky might be from in some maps, there isn't much to fight in the first few turns thats worth rushing her foreward, without the risk of getting killed. granted i never used her alot due to her shotty offence but i'm just guessing as to other reasons why lethe got her score, even if i fully agree with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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