Finally making my own, personal, rating topic/tier list.

[Life]

I didn't know Elincia was in the prologue.

She's not but Ike is.

[Dark Sage]

Oh I see what you mean. I misinterpreted what you said, carry on.

[Anouleth]

Elincia is actually in three maps, you can't take her to Chapter 28 since she's preparing for the final battle in Melior.

[Life]

Elincia is actually in three maps, you can't take her to Chapter 28 since she's preparing for the final battle in Melior.

Completely forgot about that.

[Snowy_One]

The edited review has been reposted. She got a 4, mainly because... I just don't see how I can justify giving someone who is only around for three chapters a 5 even if they are that key. She's joining after all your other potential staff users have come and, rescue aside, she really isn't that unique. If she had joined earlier, sure, I'd gladly boost her score, but... late joining time...

[Life]

Legit. I can live with that. Shafted stats and late jointime really do suck in this game, even with the Rescue staff. If Warp existed, you could bump her up 2 points but it doesn't so... yeah.

However, take out the part about the sages being staffers. E Staves is not good. Only Mist and Rhys compare as the real staffers and Mist has been on a horsie since around Chapter 11 or so.

[aku chi]

Stiletto (really only viable once Chapter 27 comes around and we can buy them in bulk due to the first one only have 20 uses between Chapter 21 and 27).

It should be pointed out that Bastian joins with a Stiletto in C24. Not that this particularly improves Volke's combat.

However, take out the part about the sages being staffers. E Staves is not good. Only Mist and Rhys compare as the real staffers and Mist has been on a horsie since around Chapter 11 or so.

If Mist is on a horse in C11 (I guess we're feeding her >700 Bexp), Soren or Ilyana can be promoted with staves in C11 (with less than 300 Bexp). They can easily reach C staves by C17-3. They are perfectly capable of being your sole staff user if you so choose.

Edited December 16, 2011 by aku chi

[Snowy_One]

Up next.... Haar...

I will admit, I am no large fan of Haar's. He comes late and outright requires the brave axe to do anything useful. In the past, I've had to argue uphill for Mia to even get on the team when debating Mia, but Haar? Give him a brave axe no questions asked! Granted he's nowhere near as big a unit I despise as Zihark, Mist, or Muarim, but still... I've been 'spoiled goods' for a long time when it comes to debates and Haar is part (even if much smaller than the rest) of the reason why. But I am trying to put that aside.

Haar joins the team in chapter 23 as a reinforcement that can be recruited by Jill. When he joins, he already has impressive STR (21) and DEF (20) as well as having the ability to fly. However, he is lacking in one key area, speed (17). On the very next chapter is is facing iffy doubling rates and it only goes downhill from there. By the end of the game even Ilyana has the potential to be a bloody speedster compared to him since, unlike him, she can take a speed band to help her problems. Unless Haar gets a speedwing, he simply ends up being too slow to double most enemies. However, even when he does manage to double, at the end of it all he is isn't really all that much better than the paladins except for his notably larger HP pool and flight. In fact, calling him 'a flying paladin who lacks speed/Sol' is pretty much a 100% accurate description of him.

That's not to say Paladins are bad, but by the time Haar joins we already have Oscar, Kieran, Astrid, and Makalov and in two chapters we'll have Geoffrey who, while worse, can at least manage to double on his own power. As far as fliers go, we've got Marcia, Jill, and Tanith as well who have the exact same advantage on Haar, the ability to double on their own power. This is no minor downfall either.

Haar ends the game with 26 STR. While this is no small amount, the fact that he cannot double comes to bite him in the ass hard. If, for any reason, Haar fails to double, he is left with the option of a 1HKO or failure to kill (which can cause trouble). Other units have at least the chance to double, changing the needed 1HKO to a 1RKO, or have better chances to critical which increases their chances to 1HKO.

Does this mean Haar is a bad unit? No. He is not a bad unit, but he is one with a huge flaw in place that MUST be worked around. He either needs to 1HKO or needs a special weapon in order to function. He joins late and his late joining (and element of wind. WTF?) make his supports worth less. This is odd in that his two supporting units would certainly like his support, but even when he gets them, he gets boosted DEF (which he didn't have trouble with) and AVO (I don't know if this is enough to give him even reliable dodge, but even if it did, his problem is poor doubling, not avoid).

Speed: 1.5: Haar joins late in the game. Right there that is a handicap to his speed. He requires you to keep Jill by the starting area to recruit, and even when he joins, he's slow. His high attack and defense are useful for killing foes when he can double, but when he can't, he's nigh useless. At the least, his slow speed needs to be worked around to make him useful.

Flexibility: 1.5: Haar is not very flexible. While he can rescue, while he can defend, and do other things, he simply joins so late that, by the time you get him, you will have almost every other unit that can do the things he does. Except better as, when it comes down to the combat, they can double reliably. Haar cannot do that, which really hurts what he can do on the offensive front.

Customization: 1.5: In order for Haar to be viable, he needs specialized weaponry. This wouldn't be such a huge mark against him if his main mode of attack wasn't the brave axe! It only has a low number of uses and once it breaks Haar is stuck with having to go with the Killer axe or Forged Silver and praying he can crit/find a match where he can 1HKO. His skill, Guard, is wasted on him since he has high DEF/HP already as well. The only thing that can be said to be good about his customization options is that, if you choose to give him two speedwings, he won't be as bad... which really isn't so much making him 'awesome' as 'a late joining paladin'.

Overall: 4.5: Haar simply joins too late and is too slow to be really good. He needs specialized weaponry to even fight, and when he does, he doesn't really do anything other units before him haven't done. If I need a 1HKOer, I'll look to Boyd/Largo. If I need a brave weapon user, I'll look to someone who can make it a X4 attack (for more damage), crit more (for less uses on the weapon), or has some useful skill (both), not someone who needs it to even preform his basic job.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Snowy_One

[Life]

Haar with an Arms Scroll has instant access to Silver Axes. The Arms Scrolls aren't really contested (only people that could really use them are Haar, Devdan and... Nephenee?) so if you don't want to sell them, that ups Haar's combat in an instant. 37 Att out of the gate isn't exactly something to sneeze at. Since everything turns into a 2HKO (he actually ORKOs the Warriors in the next chapter with it), he's a wrecking ball with 120 base Hit. Not bad at all. Also, a Speedwings on him is never bad (though probably much more contested than the Arms Scroll), mostly because his combat takes an immediate jump. A lot of things have 14 or 15 AS at this point and with 19 AS, Haar's going to be ORKOing anything that crosses his path.

Looking at Chapter 24 alone, a Speedwing and Silver Axe has him ORKOing everything but the Myrmidons, Paladin, Berserker reinforcement and Ricard. Without the Speedwings, take out the Snipers, an Archer and all the Cavs except for the Steel Sword guys. Lacking the Silver Axe, he can't ORKO any of the Wyverns or the Fighters/Warriors. What a difference these resources make on him.

In addition, fliers are always nice. Even Yuno or Syrene have uses that may not be combat oriented. Same thing with Haar.

Oh and you're using the Brave Axe wrong. You shouldn't be looking to quad with it. You should be looking to kill something without taking a counter in return (this is why Marcus having B Axes is so key). It actually works better on a guy like Haar than Boyd or Keiran since Haar usually doesn't double and Boyd/Keiran kill their man anyway. Your Haar review is about 3 points too low since you're not using him right.

AND:

<Anouleth> now, an Arms Scroll + Silver forge would be perfect

<Anouleth> he'd ORKO Wyvern Lords and Generals

<Anouleth> and OHKO Sages

<Cocaine> Never even thought about that

Edited December 16, 2011 by Bblader

[Interceptor]

The Arms Scrolls aren't really contested (only people that could really use them are Haar, Devdan and... Nephenee?)

And also Mist. It gives her access to Sonic Sword without tedious training on Steel, makes her into a pretty versatile unit. Tormod possible also, if he's intended to be a siege tome utility belt in place of Callil.

[Snowy_One]

Haar with an Arms Scroll has instant access to Silver Axes. The Arms Scrolls aren't really contested (only people that could really use them are Haar, Devdan and... Nephenee?)

BUT WHAT ABOUT MIST?!?!?!

so if you don't want to sell them, that ups Haar's combat in an instant. 37 Att out of the gate isn't exactly something to sneeze at. Since everything turns into a 2HKO (he actually ORKOs the Warriors in the next chapter with it), he's a wrecking ball with 120 base Hit. Not bad at all.

I never said his MT was awful. However, even in 21 he would only 1HKO magic users and maybe a few myrmidons. This is before he even joins the team. If Haar fails to double, he most likely fails to KO. Not good for him at all.

Also, a Speedwings on him is never bad (though probably much more contested than the Arms Scroll), mostly because his combat takes an immediate jump. A lot of things have 14 or 15 AS at this point and with 19 AS, Haar's going to be ORKOing anything that crosses his path.

I won't argue that a speedwing/brave weapon is a good thing for him, but it's also something he simply cannot fight without. Without one, he can only 1HKO, double slow units, and has to use the brave axe. He NEEDS the Speedwing to even function. It's not that he can function without it or has something he can do without the speedwing, it's that in order to have any really speakable combat, he needs the wing or brave axe, not good at all for customization scores.

In addition, fliers are always nice. Even Yuno or Syrene have uses that may not be combat oriented. Same thing with Haar.

By the time Haar joins I have Marcia, Jill, Tanith, Ulki, and Janaff as fliers already. Unless there is something specific that only Haar can do (even if it is just being another rescue/drop body) that I cannot pull off with these guys, I don't see why I should bother.

Oh and you're using the Brave Axe wrong. You shouldn't be looking to quad with it. You should be looking to kill something without taking a counter in return (this is why Marcus having B Axes is so key). It actually works better on a guy like Haar than Boyd or Keiran since Haar usually doesn't double and Boyd/Keiran kill their man anyway. Your Haar review is about 3 points too low since you're not using him right.

The brave axe has 30 uses. That's 15 kills assuming he always attacks twice, always kills, and isn't hammerined. That isn't impressive. A silver axe has 6 more MT and, though frailer, is replaceable. If I HAVE to devote the brave axe to Haar to even get him to kill, that's a bad thing. I don't care if he kills in two, three, or four strikes (beyond how it affects how he can kill), having to devote the Brave Axe to Haar to make him kill is not good for his customization score.

[Life]

BUT WHAT ABOUT MIST?!?!?!

What about her? Welcome to 2011 where putting two Arms Scrolls on Mist for 25 uses of a sword is as fanboyish as arguing Mage Band, double Spirit Dust and levels on Mia for the exact same sword.

So... what about her?

I never said his MT was awful. However, even in 21 he would only 1HKO magic users and maybe a few myrmidons. This is before he even joins the team. If Haar fails to double, he most likely fails to KO. Not good for him at all.

Jesus Christ Snowy, he kills anything that actually does damage to him like Wyverns and Warriors. Myrmidons tink him. That's a neverKO.

The Wyvern Lords in Chapter 24 have ~38 HP and ~18 Def. Haar has 37 Attack with the Silver Axe and he doubles them. Clean 1RKO. The level 6 Warrior has 47 HP and 12 Def. Haar still ORKOs him. I fail to see how Myrmidons in Chapter 21 affect the stats of Wyvern Lords and Warriors in 24 that Haar cleanly kills in a single round at 9 Move.

I won't argue that a speedwing/brave weapon is a good thing for him, but it's also something he simply cannot fight without. Without one, he can only 1HKO, double slow units, and has to use the brave axe. He NEEDS the Speedwing to even function. It's not that he can function without it or has something he can do without the speedwing, it's that in order to have any really speakable combat, he needs the wing or brave axe, not good at all for customization scores.

Now you're sounding like a broken record. He doesn't have to use the Brave Axe to salvage his combat because I just proved that an Arms Scroll salvages it a lot better than a single 30 use weapon.

In this case, the clothes don't make the man. The man makes the clothes. We're not pimping Haar up to use the Brave Axe just like you talk about pimping up Mist or Mia just for the Sonic Sword. Here, we're pimping up Haar so that weapons like Silver Axes or the Brave Axe want to be used by him. Funkmaster Flex would be proud.

By the time Haar joins I have Marcia, Jill, Tanith, Ulki, and Janaff as fliers already. Unless there is something specific that only Haar can do (even if it is just being another rescue/drop body) that I cannot pull off with these guys, I don't see why I should bother.

Because Haar is a brick wall made of fuck? Are you implying that Haar's flying ability suddenly doesn't exist because he only joins in Chapter 24?

The brave axe has 30 uses. That's 15 kills assuming he always attacks twice, always kills, and isn't hammerined. That isn't impressive. A silver axe has 6 more MT and, though frailer, is replaceable. If I HAVE to devote the brave axe to Haar to even get him to kill, that's a bad thing. I don't care if he kills in two, three, or four strikes (beyond how it affects how he can kill), having to devote the Brave Axe to Haar to make him kill is not good for his customization score.

1. Haar kills with store bought Silver Axes. Don't turn this into the same shit that you did with Stefan (claiming that his Att was lower than Lethe's for a good 7 or so chapters when I proved that it was equal with a store bought weapon in his first chapter).

2. In your own words, quadding with the Brave Axe is 7 kills. Even worse for Boyd since he'll waste it faster that way.

Now, why don't you actually respond to my points instead of creating imaginary ones and then attacking that?

Edited December 16, 2011 by Bblader

[Anouleth]

All this dithering over an Arms Scroll, when Haar can just use a Steel Axe forge and get the same result.

[aku chi]

Haar can double:

Generals (all)

Wyvern Lords (all)

Bishops (all)

Sages (all)

Warriors (most)

Halberdiers (most)

Snipers (some)

with no resources. With a Steel Axe forge, Haar 2HKOs everything except bosses, Dragons, Generals, Tigers, and some Wyvern Lords. With a Silver Axe forge, Haar can 2HKO almost all Generals, Tigers, and Wyvern Lords. With a Hammer, Haar can 2HKO almost all Generals. With a Laguz Axe/Lance, Haar can 2HKO all Tigers.

With good to great offense, the best mobility in the game, and the best durability in his movement class (and one of the best in the game), Haar is a great unit in the chapters he's available in.

I'm still not clear what distinction you make between "flexibility" and "customization", but you neglect to mention the following in any case:

- Haar can wield both axes and lances. He starts with a B rank in both, so he can take the specialty weapons otherwise unused (Brave weapons, laguz weapons, and Hammer being the most valuable of the bunch).

- Haar is the most durable flier. He is therefore ideally suited to rescue-dropping.

- There are a variety of resources that Haar can individually make great use of. Most prominent here are a Speedwings, a Brave weapon, and an Arms Scroll+Silver forge. Haar is far from worthless without these resources, but he can become even more valuable with them.

[Anouleth]

I wouldn't really call Haar's combat great.

[Lord Raven]

If Mist is on a horse in C11 (I guess we're feeding her >700 Bexp), Soren or Ilyana can be promoted with staves in C11 (with less than 300 Bexp). They can easily reach C staves by C17-3. They are perfectly capable of being your sole staff user if you so choose.

no they can't we've argued this before etc etc

[Life]

I wouldn't really call Haar's combat great.

That is besides the point when you are a flying brick wall made of chocolatey covered fuck.

OSnow3

I'm talking about SPD and I will keep it confined to SPD, ATT be damned.

No, Snowy. Haar is nothing like Ilyana and I will flat out destroy her for having shitty Spd on TOP of not 2HKOing enemies. Haar can turn 2HKOs into ORKOs with a Speedwing. Ilyana turns 3HKOs into 2RKOs. That's not an increase in performance.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Bblader

[Snowy_One]

What about her? Welcome to 2011 where putting two Arms Scrolls on Mist for 25 uses of a sword is as fanboyish as arguing Mage Band, double Spirit Dust and levels on Mia for the exact same sword.

So... what about her?

Usually people cry their head off when Mist doesn't get the SS. I've seen arguments relating too it come up recently as well, so it's clearly not a dead contribution. Besides, Haar starts off with a B in axes. Why can't he just level them normally?

Jesus Christ Snowy, he kills anything that actually does damage to him like Wyverns and Warriors. Myrmidons tink him. That's a neverKO.

Killing > not being killed. Rhys can heal from the backlines and never be exposed, the generals have stupidy high defense. I suppose that they are suddenly amazing now as well?

The Wyvern Lords in Chapter 24 have ~38 HP and ~18 Def. Haar has 37 Attack with the Silver Axe and he doubles them. Clean 1RKO. The level 6 Warrior has 47 HP and 12 Def. Haar still ORKOs him. I fail to see how Myrmidons in Chapter 21 affect the stats of Wyvern Lords and Warriors in 24 that Haar cleanly kills in a single round at 9 Move.

Yay! He can double slow enemies! As the chapters progress beyond 25 he fails to double the more basic and numerous units! His offense isn't really all that special. In terms of attack and defense he's almost identical to Kieran (one more defense), almost identical to Oscar, and the rest of the paladins clock in fairly close... except none of them need help doubling and came much earlier. Even when compared to his fellow fliers, Marcia may not be as strong/durable, but she has 28 freaking speed, Jill is only 1 STR and DEF behind and doesn't need help doubling, Tanith, while having trouble, also manages to at least double on her own...

So yea, aside from maybe killing high DEF units, I don't really see anything all that special about what Haar does. He's only a few points better than his counterparts in ATT and DEF (most of them didn't care anyways) but needs a speedwing to be considered a reliable combat unit.

Now you're sounding like a broken record. He doesn't have to use the Brave Axe to salvage his combat because I just proved that an Arms Scroll salvages it a lot better than a single 30 use weapon.

It salvages it against people everyone else can double and likely doesn't fail against anyways. Sure, maybe he's better than the SM/soldiers against them, but they can do something he can't... double the faster enemies with ease.

In this case, the clothes don't make the man. The man makes the clothes. We're not pimping Haar up to use the Brave Axe just like you talk about pimping up Mist or Mia just for the Sonic Sword. Here, we're pimping up Haar so that weapons like Silver Axes or the Brave Axe want to be used by him. Funkmaster Flex would be proud.

So by making him inferior to the rest of the team in everything but movement and giving him one potential way to reliably kill enemies we're making it so 'forged weapons WANT to be used by him'? By that same standard wouldn't Ganondorf WANT to be used by Captain Falcon players in Melee?

Because Haar is a brick wall made of fuck? Are you implying that Haar's flying ability suddenly doesn't exist because he only joins in Chapter 24?

His flight is the only reason you even care about him! If he were a non-flying unit, even just mounted, you wouldn't be throwing such a fuss about him! The only reason you are defending him is because he is a flier that can potentially rescue-drop someone despite you already having five other fliers who can do that, three of which are pretty distinctly superior to Haar! Without that wing, Haar is a poor doubler and either can only kill slow enemies or needs the brave axe. He isn't impressive. He isn't Funkmaster Flex. He's the down and out wrestler who you remember from that one time you accidentally flipped to the Wrestling channel while looking for better stuff on T.V. desperately trying to sell his vitamin water while using cardboard cutouts of Flex in the background to try and seem more amazing!

2. In your own words, quadding with the Brave Axe is 7 kills. Even worse for Boyd since he'll waste it faster that way.

And I'm the one making imaginary points? If someone quads with the brave weapon, this means two things. 1) That they would have been fast enough to double normally. 2) That the enemy is seriously tough.

Boyd has more STR and SPD than Haar (he ties Haar endgame STR and SPD at 20/11 and has 9 more levels to grow). This means that Boyd is more likely to kill in 1 hit than Haar (anything he needs two hits for, Haar would as well), and that when a enemy comes along that needs more than two hits to kill with the brave axe, Boyd has the chance to 1RKO him (higher SPD and all). At the worst Boyd is doing just as well as Haar with the Brave Axe and quadding is a GOOD thing (since the enemy is tough). So no, this point is invalid.

Haar can double:

Generals (all)

Wyvern Lords (all)

Bishops (all)

Sages (all)

Warriors (most)

Halberdiers (most)

Snipers (some)

with no resources. With a Steel Axe forge, Haar 2HKOs everything except bosses, Dragons, Generals, Tigers, and some Wyvern Lords. With a Silver Axe forge, Haar can 2HKO almost all Generals, Tigers, and Wyvern Lords. With a Hammer, Haar can 2HKO almost all Generals. With a Laguz Axe/Lance, Haar can 2HKO all Tigers.

1) What chapter?

2) Doubling those guys isn't impressive. Bishops/sages especially as only RES-attackers find them hard to kill.

3) I can do this most other units who have been around as well up to this point. Why should I care?

With good to great offense, the best mobility in the game, and the best durability in his movement class (and one of the best in the game), Haar is a great unit in the chapters he's available in.

He's too slow to kill anything of value beside generals, there are at least three other units in his movement class who are capable of doubling and aren't Laguz, one of which is pretty much his defensive equal.

- Haar can wield both axes and lances. He starts with a B rank in both, so he can take the specialty weapons otherwise unused (Brave weapons, laguz weapons, and Hammer being the most valuable of the bunch).

So I'm now going to ignore that other units can use these weapons (and double with them) just so that they can be around when Haar is around?

- Haar is the most durable flier. He is therefore ideally suited to rescue-dropping.

1) Jill is pretty much as durable.

2) Only matters on a LTC playthrough.

3) Does it even matter then? If my rescue-droppers are so heavily under fire as to make a durability increase that important, I would also assume that being capable to reliably kill enemies would be more valuable than the defense since there are a LOT of enemies around apparently.

- There are a variety of resources that Haar can individually make great use of. Most prominent here are a Speedwings, a Brave weapon, and an Arms Scroll+Silver forge. Haar is far from worthless without these resources, but he can become even more valuable with them.

The problem with that statement is that, without them, Haar is pretty worthless offense-wise. While he has good STR, it's not enough to 1HKO the faster units, so he can only double the slower ones, and generals aside, those usually aren't too hard to kill anyways. I have to commit these resources to him to make him usable. These aren't resources that he uses amazingly, these are resources that he can't function without at least some of them.

[Anouleth]

I wouldn't really say that he's worthless. It's rare that you find maps that don't have enemies that he can ORKO: and even if he 2RKOes, there are many instances where your regular units will be 2RKOing. Are Titania and Geoffrey and Tanith going to ORKO everything? Are most of your units going to ORKO Swordmasters or Paladins or laguz or Generals or Wyverns? Will your units never find themselves in a situation where they need to switch to a weaker weapon like a Hand Axe or a Javelin and thus be unable to ORKO?

Edited December 18, 2011 by Anouleth

[Snowy_One]

I wouldn't really say that he's worthless. It's rare that you find maps that don't have enemies that he can ORKO: and even if he 2RKOes, there are many instances where your regular units will be 2RKOing. Are Titania and Geoffrey and Tanith going to ORKO everything? Are most of your units going to ORKO Swordmasters or Paladins or laguz or Generals or Wyverns? Will your units never find themselves in a situation where they need to switch to a weaker weapon like a Hand Axe or a Javelin and thus be unable to ORKO?

Fair enough assumptions, though I level the counter-question, 'if they cannot 1RKO it, at least they double and deal more damage as a result, so does Haar manage to do something they cannot?' Can he deal enough damage with a handaxe at 1-2 range to 2RKO when others would not? Does the number of generals that he can 1RKO and other units cannot 1RKO really high enough to be a point for Haar (as opposed to the number of units who Haar cannot 1RKO, but others can). Is this because the units cannot 1RKO, or because they will lack level in a speed playthrough?

[Life]

I really don't know why I'm responding. In fact, I don't even understand why you're even posting this "rating topic" in the first place. Aside from Elincia, you're refusing to acknowledge the basic math that shows that you are flat out wrong about things. So why don't we skip the formalities? You should just stop posting in this topic because A) you're wrong about 90% of the shit that you say and B) you refuse to listen to the logical arguments that people use to destroy your flimsy cases. So rather than posting your thoughts here, do it in a place where we're not going to call you out on your bullshit. I hear that Microsoft Word appreciates usage and will never tell you why you're stupid.

Usually people cry their head off when Mist doesn't get the SS. I've seen arguments relating too it come up recently as well, so it's clearly not a dead contribution. Besides, Haar starts off with a B in axes. Why can't he just level them normally?

You're confusing us with GameFAQs where they still believe that Wendy is a great unit. Putting the Arms Scrolls on Mist is worthless because it gives her offense for 25 attacks. That's not worth it whatsoever.

I never finished the Arms Scroll analysis that I was working on but the people who actually make use out of the Arms Scrolls are as follows: Nephenee (depends on how much BExp you're willing to shove down her throat at the start of Chapter 11), Devdan, Haar and maybe Geoffrey (Brave Bow). Mist will never "need" the Arms Scrolls at any point because she functions well enough as a mounted healer.

Killing > not being killed. Rhys can heal from the backlines and never be exposed, the generals have stupidy high defense. I suppose that they are suddenly amazing now as well?

I think you missed the part where I showed he was killing stuff with close to 20 Def in his first chapter of work. Being tinked by enemies that you don't double (but reach with 9 Move) just makes him more awesome.

Yay! He can double slow enemies!

Are you intentionally retarded? Do you get a kick out of having people scratch their heads and wonder if you have some sort of mental illness?

He doesn't just double. He kills. Or did the fact that he's ORKOing some of the most durable enemies on the map go over the top of your head?

As the chapters progress beyond 25 he fails to double the more basic and numerous units! His offense isn't really all that special. In terms of attack and defense he's almost identical to Kieran (one more defense), almost identical to Oscar, and the rest of the paladins clock in fairly close... except none of them need help doubling and came much earlier. Even when compared to his fellow fliers, Marcia may not be as strong/durable, but she has 28 freaking speed, Jill is only 1 STR and DEF behind and doesn't need help doubling, Tanith, while having trouble, also manages to at least double on her own...

Hmm... let's go back to that Wyvern Lord for a second. At 20/11, Oscar's sporting 35 Att with a Silver Lance. Guess what he's not doing? ORKOing that Wyvern Lord. Same for Tanith, Marcia... essentially everyone not named Haar, Keiran or Jill.

AS is a wonderful stat but it's not the be-all-and-end-all of everything. Doubling enemies doesn't mean much if you're not ORKOing them while others are. I will take a unit that 2HKOs every enemy in existence rather than a unit that doubles everything but can only ORKO very few things.

So yea, aside from maybe killing high DEF units, I don't really see anything all that special about what Haar does. He's only a few points better than his counterparts in ATT and DEF (most of them didn't care anyways) but needs a speedwing to be considered a reliable combat unit.

So... because he's lacking in the AS department (which he is), he's suddenly as bad as someone like Bastian or Lucia? The man is a flying tank. A 9 Move flying tank that kills stuff with his 37 base Att. How is this not special?

It salvages it against people everyone else can double and likely doesn't fail against anyways. Sure, maybe he's better than the SM/soldiers against them, but they can do something he can't... double the faster enemies with ease.

Haar can do something that they can't either. Multiple things, actually. He can kill them much easier (even OHKOs Bishops and Sages) and 2HKOs everything in existence. He also flies.

I understand that this is a tier list by Snowy but why don't we drop the pretenses and relabel it to read "Tier List based on only AS values"? At least keep it consistent. Don't pretend to care about offensive abilities or durability; the more shit you double, the higher you are.

Speaking of which, I now expect Stefan to get perfect marks since he doubles everything.

So by making him inferior to the rest of the team in everything but movement and giving him one potential way to reliably kill enemies we're making it so 'forged weapons WANT to be used by him'? By that same standard wouldn't Ganondorf WANT to be used by Captain Falcon players in Melee?

Why are you even bothering to give characters scores then? We should be classifying everyone into one of two categories with this logic. Either the team or "inferior to the rest of the team".

His flight is the only reason you even care about him! If he were a non-flying unit, even just mounted, you wouldn't be throwing such a fuss about him!

Wait for the Stefan review. Then you may kiss my feet and apologize for even hinting at being a hypocrite.

And Snowy, you ARE forgetting that he can fly because he joins in Chapter 24. Syrene joins in Chapter 17 of FE8. We already have 3 great fliers by that time (Cormag, Tana and Vanessa) and we don't really need another flier. But Syrene can still do all of the utility jobs that the first three do. Saying that "three of which are pretty distinctly superior" does not mean that Haar is suddenly inadequate at this job. You're flat out denying that Haar can do those jobs because "Jill/Marcia/Tanith" do them better.

I wasn't aware that any of those three "rescue" and "drop" people better than Haar. Can they rescue two people instead of the normal one while Haar can only load a person's leg onto the back of his wyvern? Please explain to me how those three use the Rescue command in a way that Haar can't.

[Snowy_One]

I have a response all ready to go but before I do, I want to level one challenge to Life.

Rate Haar using the three catagories I have here. Speed (how the unit helps people complete chapters ASAP throughout the game), flexibility (how adaptable the unit is to the various situations that arise during gameplay while on the field), and customization (what resources are needed to make the function, how well he uses said resources, and so forth).

Not just simple 'Speed: 3.5' ratings either. A full-on character review like I would. Remember, this isn't just LTC focused either, consider multiple styles of play.

[Life]

I have a response all ready to go but before I do, I want to level one challenge to Life.

Rate Haar using the three catagories I have here. Speed (how the unit helps people complete chapters ASAP throughout the game), flexibility (how adaptable the unit is to the various situations that arise during gameplay while on the field), and customization (what resources are needed to make the function, how well he uses said resources, and so forth).

Not just simple 'Speed: 3.5' ratings either. A full-on character review like I would. Remember, this isn't just LTC focused either, consider multiple styles of play.

You're on. But I'm not going to write it for you.

Speed: 1.5. Haar can easily replace any of the growth fliers (Marcia or Jill) because he is a flying RNG-proof tank. Only the strongest Generals, Tigers and bosses can survive two hits from base Haar while using any Axe/B level Lance that he likes. Got a Tiger here we need dead? No worries! Haar has 47 effective Att with the Laguz Axe against 49 HP and 20 Def. That's a 2HKO. You need 45 Att to barely 2HKO these things which is a minimum of 19 Str and C Axes or 21 Str and C Lances. For reference, Marcia hits 21 Str at level 20/14 on average. If the Tiger gains 3 points in Def and keeps the same amount of HP, she'll never 2HKO it due to hitting her Str cap. And Haar can do this at goddamn base. Now think of the fact that he can gain 9 more levels and has a 60% growth rate and 29 Str cap. This man is beyond RNG screwage.

Defensively, Haar is solid. 47 HP and 20 Def with an effective 110% growth means that he doesn't have to worry about dying any time soon. Enemy Atk values chill about in the mid 20s when he joins and tandomly (wait for it) 9RKO him on average. Ladies and gentlemen, now we know why he can afford to sleep through wars. Nothing can dent his armour.

Where Haar loses out is on his availability and AS issues. Showing up in Chapter 24 is not really a good idea if you want to try and be the best unit ever (which he's not). In addition to that, 17 AS toes the line of doubling and not doubling. It's very average and that's not really what we want at this stage in the game. He makes a very adequate substitution for Jill/Marcia if they stank and/or you're wet for his eyepatch.

Flexibility: 2. As I proved above, Haar is a motherfucking flying tank. He hits hard, he hits once and he doesn't die.

This is pretty good for the rest of the maps that exist in the game except that he doesn't really get to abuse his flying that much. Chapter 24 has a nice river that Haar can cross and just dive into the enemy units while someone else ferries Ike to Geoffrey's castle (because someone needs to get that Exp and I certainly wouldn't mind grabbing Nihil/Saviour/whatever the scroll is that you get from the house chilling by Rikard). 25 is infamous for being a flier only map and 28 has some forests to cross. That's really about it.

As such, Haar makes more out of his ferrying abilities than flying utility. He usually doesn't double which makes him the perfect candidate for ferrying Ike (slicing his Spd in half doesn't matter when you hit like a truck) since he doesn't really suffer combat-wise from doing it. But once again, there aren't enough maps for Haar to abuse this. 24 and 27 are the only Arrive/Seize maps left in the game (unless 28 is also a Seize). Ike isn't really needed to defeat Bertram or the top of the mountain in 25. Maybe he can get ferried to Ashnard via Haar (since Bryce sits in his path and ?/20 Haar may just have enough Att to Hammer the shit outta Bryce for a 2HKO) so that's another point. But it really just comes down to the fact that he isn't available for long enough. Thank god IS fixed that in FE10.

Customization: 2. How to salvage Haar. This can easily be an essay just by itself.

Haar's main problem is his Spd. He's pretty much going to ORKO very little for his entire career. It's a shame too since it wastes that beautiful 21+60% Str of his. So we have a few solutions for it.

1. The most obvious. A Speedwings. This alone allows him to start doubling stuff like Snipers and Paladins. Pretty awesome if you think about it since other than Speedwing!Boyd in Chapter 5, you'll never see such an obvious increase in combat potential. The rub is that the second one comes in Chapter 13 and you're sitting on it for about 10 chapters and letting it rot for a while.

2. An Arms Scroll. There's a total of 2 in the game and they don't really have much use (Devdan wants one but it salvages his combat for like 4 chapters at most and maybe Nephenee). So sticking one on Haar is always a nice idea. This lets Haar use Silver Axes now and more importantly, Silver forges. The guy is now flying around with 42 Atk and to top it off, he's invincible. Amazing. This basically allows him to 2HKO everything in existence from his start chapter to the end of the game. It might not solve his doubling problems but this is meaty chip on steroids. Who cares about doubling when a single shot takes an enemy down to 1/3 HP?

3. Skills. There's a lot of nice skills that may or may not be hanging around at this point. If you haven't used Adept yet, Haar will love it. It mitigates his doubling problems by allowing himself a second shot 19% of the time at base. He's effectively ORKOing 1 in every 5 enemies that he doesn't normally ORKO due to his Speed. Provoke means that he'll see more combat and his durability is good enough that he really doesn't care about a possible gangbanging on the enemy phase. And that's pretty much it that Haar can actually use effectively.

4. A lot of different axes (most notably the Brave Axe). This isn't really a fix but it's more that Haar gets quite a lot out of having a diverse amount of weaponry to choose from. If his 9 Move wasn't enough to ogle over, how about a 34 Atk 1~2 Range weapon called the Tomahawk? Hammer isn't great but until you can get a forged Silver Axe for Haar, it has 20 effective attack on Generals (easy 2HKO). The Killer Axe is awesome for being the Killer Axe.

And then we come to the Brave Axe. The first thing to note is that Haar will easily ORKO almost all enemies with this thing. The second thing to note is that he'll do it before they can even attack him. That being said, his defensive parameters are so good that he's being 5HKO'd at best on any given map. So truth be told, Haar doesn't NEED this weapon. But who else is going to use it?

So those are your options. Any of them improve Haar's performance substantially. The problem is you're sitting on a number of them (Arms Scroll, Speedwings, Adept...) for such a long time that it almost seems like a waste when you use it on Haar since some other unit could have used it (maybe not as well but still liked it) about 20 or so chapters ago. However, the benefit Haar gets is enormous and he's not even bad without them. He's just better with.

Final score: 5.5/15. Fuck it. I guess I did just write it for you.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Bblader

[Snowy_One]

Did you notice we agreed on most of the basic things except for customization? Namely that Haar's late joining and AS issues keep him from being good in the speed, his ability to ferry is highly limited and is his only real flexibility point, and that Haar is pretty much salvageable offense-wise unless we give him the speedwings/scroll/brave axe? The only thing we disagreed on what how much it hurt him, namely that I felt that late-game ferrying was worth 1.5 instead of 2 and his late joining and outright necessity to have something special to be usable gave him a 0 in customization.

So when we get down to it, our disagreement isn't over what Haar does or numbers, but rather if it is worth it to save those resources up for him and what the value of a Haar who can fight reliably is.

[Life]

So when we get down to it, our disagreement isn't over what Haar does or numbers, but rather if it is worth it to save those resources up for him and what the value of a Haar who can fight reliably is.

My numbers are more fair. It's not like the Arms Scrolls are doing anything (like I mentioned above, only Neph and Devdan really use them and not as well) so it's really Haar or bank. And in return, Haar 2HKOs the rest of the game, a stunt that many units cannot do. That's the value. You just completely disregard it for whatever reason and then refuse to pull your fingers out of your ears when someone proves you wrong.