Does Thracia 776 deserve it's reputation for difficulty?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Since this has been bumped about 5 times now, I might as well bite.

There are three things in games that make things hard: strategy, execution, and luck. Strategy includes everything that falls under the realm of prior knowledge, whether it was gained from listening to someone else or a failed attempt. Thracia's Fog of War falls into this category. So does knowing that Warp is broken.

Execution is mostly missing from FE games and is pretty self-explanatory.

Then there's luck, which apparently amounts to "cheap difficulty" or some test of patience. So, if luck can be overcome through patience and you can pull together enough prior knowledge to have an answer to every situation, it would seem the only way to make something legitimately hard is with a randomly generated challenge to overcome prior knowledge (AKA FE13 Lunatic+, which outside of Cht.2 is not as luck based as people make it out to be). Unfortunately, this gets passed off as luck because it's random.

Make up your minds, people. What would constitute as "real difficulty" in a FE game?

[Baldrick]

I believe real difficulty in Fire Emblem is having to strategise. Your skill and knowledge affects things somewhat; for example, like having better reflexes and knowledge of hazards makes a difficult section in a platformer easy, better tactics and knowledge of hazards makes a difficult chapter in FE easy. Because the AI is far less resourceful than a human, the easiest way to have real difficulty is to give the computer a large advantage.

[Vorena]

Chapter 19 and the final chapter are prime examples of how the game trolls you with being unable to play units in the way you want.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Eri

[Nicolas]

Chapter 19 and the final chapter are prime examples of how the game trolls you with being unable to play units in the way you want to without being obnoxious.

I don't understand.

In ch19 you have warp, rewarp, rescue, four filers, many promoted horseback units and you only need to escape some civils. Don't get what is hard in this chapter.

In final you should have many status staves, which helps you much to deal with bosses.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I believe real difficulty in Fire Emblem is having to strategise.

That's what it should be. Unfortunately people can just look up guides and then claim that all that difficulty can be trivialized through prior knowledge. As I said, that's why I like Lunatic+, because it changes every time.

[Baldrick]

@eri/Nicolas, proves my point. A lot of chapters are hard if you are going in blind, easy if you know about it and the strategies.

@czar, Never played it, what factors are random and what are constant?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Baldrick

[Vorena]

@Baldrick: That's any strategy game ever lol

Also, I slept a word wrong. I meant "place" not "play". The game says you can go here, here, or here. But, you can only place these units here, here, or here. Not a fan of having to waste turns and units trying to correct my starting positions after being allowed to choose the spots in most other FE games. I like FE5 otherwise.

[dondon151]

That's what it should be. Unfortunately people can just look up guides and then claim that all that difficulty can be trivialized through prior knowledge. As I said, that's why I like Lunatic+, because it changes every time.

random factors should stay out of strategy games. i have all of the FE6 information at my fingertips and yet some maps still take an incredibly long time to plan for LTC. having all of the information available doesn't take away from a strategy game unless you have the exact strategy available - in which case, either kudos to you for figuring it out, or shame on you for copying it.

[Czar_Yoshi]

@czar, Never played it, what factors are random and what are constant?

Enemy locations and stats, as well as reinforcements, are static, but each enemy gets two randomly generated skills (there are 7 possible skills, Grima and Walhart's are static) that are specifically designed to mess with conventional strategies. The worst are Counter and Pass (Counter will overpower even Nosfertanks and Pass makes holding chokes very hard), but there's also Pavise+ (halves physical damage), Aegis+ (halves magical/bow damage), Luna+ (halves enemy Def/Res), Hawkeye (always have 100% Hit), and Vantage+ (always strike first when attacked).

random factors should stay out of strategy games. i have all of the FE6 information at my fingertips and yet some maps still take an incredibly long time to plan for LTC. having all of the information available doesn't take away from a strategy game unless you have the exact strategy available - in which case, either kudos to you for figuring it out, or shame on you for copying it.

Then perhaps we have different definitions of what a strategy game should be. My idea of strategising is responding to changing circumstances on the fly, though I do respect your position- finding static strategies to overcome absurd situations. The problem with that (for me) is, after a while, a game has been so broken that incredible things can be done with 100% consistency (no DLC Secret Apo), and you always need to actively look for your next challenge, instead of having it be an inherent part of the game.

[PKL]

Luna+ is more ridiculous than Counter and definetely more ridic than Pass. Your run is decided early on on whether you can reset enough to have no Luna+ on the beginning swarm of Chapter 2. Which is the worst map designed in Fire Emblem ever.

[Baldrick]

@czar, that might arguably be luck-based if you have no way of getting intel before engaging the enemy (like in FoW) but otherwise I agree that is not luck-based. There's a clear difference between Lunatic+ and having to rely on Silver Lances hits in H5 Shadow Dragon.

Uninteresting ramble

Technically, it's not truly random; a chapter with x enemies with y possible skill distributions is 'merely' y^x static chapter configurations. Such a setup can theoretically be trivialised by prior knowledge; but of course it would be infeasible to make a strategy for each configuration, so in practice it is random.

@eri, it is true to a larger extent in Thracia, since the enemy threat level is mostly pretty low and the hazards that aren't easily countered are not debilitating.

@PKL, for someone who doesn't know, what is the most ridiculous aspect of L+ ? Even before this thread I had thought it was Counter.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Baldrick

[PKL]

The thing about Lunatic+ is that the skills are too extreme, which can lead to stuff that's downright unplayable. In my first run, I had 3 enemies with Hawkeye and Luna+ and they swarm together. Even playing at my bestest wasn't going to solve getting my defense halved on 3 hits. Maybe not completely luck-based, but it's bad design imo.

[Baldrick]

It was impossible to somehow take a counter from only one? Then swarm them and take them out before they can gang up on you?

I can't really say anything about the chapter design, but I know no matter how careful you are in other games you're eventually going to be burnt by the RNG. You're unlikely to be struck on the second attempt.

[Jedi]

Chapter two is a mostly wide open field and if you bum rush them you only get more enemies on you whom you cannot counter, You are absolutely forced to try to turtle when there aren't many defensive avenues

[Baldrick]

If the enemies come at you no matter what and pile up faster than you can kill them, then that is bad design.

[General Horace]

the enemy density in chapter 2 is just to high at the start and they all bumrush you and if enough of them have luna you lose

not to mention its a hard chapter on lunatic originally, without the random skills

[BrightBow]

There is also the fact that the game doesn't allow you to use the usual tools at this point.

You can't make sure everyone has the proper equipment, let alone setting up formations. (But at least supports are already unlocked...) Plus, you need a lot of luck for your level-ups too.

Also, putting the hardest level at the very beginning of the game is awful design, period. Even more so if the game doesn't even allow you to control it properly.

Edited January 2, 2014 by BrightBow

[Nicolas]

IMO in FE5 the hardest chapter ( 4 and 5) are also at begining.

[BrightBow]

IMO in FE5 the hardest chapter ( 4 and 5) are also at begining.

I can sorta see chapter 4 but what is so hard about 5?

And I don't even think chapter 4 can really be compared. It's less difficulty as it is diverse map design except for that awful luck based encounter with Dalsin's mages at the end.

But that is more a lack of polishing. By contrast, Lunatic+ feels like someone just threw in a script with all kinds of unfair stuff and took zero consideration on how this affects the game.

Hence during chapter 3, the game still treats you like you are in a tutorial and barely allows you to do anything despite this being the hardest map.

FE7/8/9/10/11 all had no problem to at least remove the tutorial dialogue on their hardest difficulties and yet Lunatic even keeps that around.

Edited January 2, 2014 by BrightBow

[Nicolas]

I can sorta see chapter 4 but what is so hard about 5?

And I don't even think chapter 4 can really be compared. It's less difficulty as it is diverse map design except for that awful luck based encounter with Dalsin's mages at the end.

But that is more a lack of polishing. By contrast, Lunatic+ feels like someone just threw in a script with all kinds of unfair stuff and took zero consideration on how this affects the game.

Hence during chapter 3, the game still treats you like you are in a tutorial and barely allows you to do anything despite this being the hardest map.

FE8/9/10 had no problem removing the tutorial dialogue on their hardest difficulties and yet Lunatic keeps them around.

Ch 4 is kinda hard, but it's mich easier when you bring only few weapon.

In ch5 is one hard moment, when on top of the map you meet both archers and mages. Your most durable unit can get 3 or 4 hit, but you still have Asvel, Nanna and Karin, who die easily. You are on mercy of RNG and everybody knows that RNG in this game has no mercy.

Rest of the game is easy, because you have Asvel pronoted, warp, scrolls, status staves and other thing.

[BrightBow]

Ch 4 is kinda hard, but it's mich easier when you bring only few weapon.

In ch5 is one hard moment, when on top of the map you meet both archers and mages. Your most durable unit can get 3 or 4 hit, but you still have Asvel, Nanna and Karin, who die easily. You are on mercy of RNG and everybody knows that RNG in this game has no mercy.

Rest of the game is easy, because you have Asvel pronoted, warp, scrolls, status staves and other thing.

Honestly, the RNG in FE5 is probably my favorite in the series. I got the impression that the rigged true RNG in later installments makes you over reliant at probabilities which aren't all that reliable.

So even though the true RNG makes things easier, you end up loosing anyway because you get careless.

Anyway, you only get a great amount of these tools later in the game. For half the game, I think you only have one staff from an optional event. And even Saphy's staff rank may not be up for the task that early.

It's unfortunate that the game gets easier after the halfway point but I can sorta get why a linear game would have balancing issues towards the end because all the optional stuff adds up over the course of the game and it gets harder and harder to determine how strong the player's party is. Especially in a game with perma death. If nothing else, the game expected at least a few allies to die.

However, abusing Warp is not that simple because your party might end up too weak for the final chapter when missing all that optional stuff. It's something you can only reliable plan ahead when you already know the whole game.

Edited January 2, 2014 by BrightBow

[dondon151]

Then perhaps we have different definitions of what a strategy game should be. My idea of strategising is responding to changing circumstances on the fly, though I do respect your position- finding static strategies to overcome absurd situations. The problem with that (for me) is, after a while, a game has been so broken that incredible things can be done with 100% consistency (no DLC Secret Apo), and you always need to actively look for your next challenge, instead of having it be an inherent part of the game.

then it seems to me that your problem has less to do with strategy and more to do with game design. the biggest problem with introducing a lot of random factors into chapter design is that the designer loses control over the sorts of circumstances that the player has to adapt to. FE13 L+ has those unwinnable situations early on.

@czar, that might arguably be luck-based if you have no way of getting intel before engaging the enemy (like in FoW) but otherwise I agree that is not luck-based. There's a clear difference between Lunatic+ and having to rely on Silver Lances hits in H5 Shadow Dragon.

i'm not quite sure if you're implying that unbeatable L+ maps are better or worse than killing bosses in FE11 H5.