Periodic Table of Elements ~Game Thread~ Game Over

[Sunwoo]

BBM, I hope you realize that not everyone is good at picking up crumbs in the first place ;/

[BBM]

BBM, I hope you realize that not everyone is good at picking up crumbs in the first place ;/

Which is why my vote is on Prims; the only people other than myself in the game whom I think could have picked out that crumb are Manix himself, Prims, and Kirsche (who's asleep).

I guess the bit about how the dayvig could have waited a few hours to do it to avoid timezones is a good point though. But Dayvigging Manix off night phase before he made the crumb in question doesn't make much sense to me.

WHATEVER 12am and I haven't started studying for my Special Relativity quiz tomorrow; later

[Refa]

Also I was thinking about the SB kill and it was kind of weird because sure there wasn't a lot of suspicion on him, but I think overall there was less on Manix, Prims, or even Kirsche. It makes more sense to me if someone saw a Mason crumb and killed him because they knew he was confirmed town anyways. Except I'm not sure why Prims would bring up that he saw a Mason crumb in that case.

Honestly, that's part of the reason I'm reading him as town atm. I don't feel like scum would be so open about their thought process.

@Refa:

The "should be safe to do so" implies knowledge of protection itg, so yeah I thought he was Doc as soon as he made that statement, but I guess thinking about it, it makes more sense for that sort of crumb to come from the Backup Doc than the actual Doc.

Aha, I see what you mean about the protection. TBH, the existence of a doc is more likely than that of a backup doc, so I can see why scum would've jumped to that conclusion.

- I think Grass is solid town as this point; his night content shows a lot of effort put into the game when scum insomniacs are inclined to slack (plus I never had an issue with him in the first place).

I had some issues with his night posts, although I don't believe there's any scum intent in them. I made a post about it during N1, but it's on another computer atm so I can't pull it up. :\

Which is why my vote is on Prims; the only people other than myself in the game whom I think could have picked out that crumb are Manix himself, Prims, and Kirsche (who's asleep).

If the shooter didn't pick up the crumb, then why are you ignoring the possibility that they are town?

[Refa]

I haven't put down a vote yet because it's pretty late and I'm too braindead to think things through atm. For reference, people who are pinging me at the moment are BBM (I feel like his posts were less scummy later on in D1, but his early D1 is still bothering me; Prims also made a good point about him in regards to the dayvig), kirsche (Prims and Boron made some good points about him, but I feel like his D1 content was pretty good aside from the hammer), GB (I had some issues with his night stuff), and Zell (I feel like his activity is a lot less than it was in one shot, where he was town, and he's kind of slipped under the radar). Will ISO these people tommorow and get a vote down then.

[scorri]

I can neither confirm nor deny how day actions would work.

[BBM]

Because a town killer would presumably have voiced some suspicion against Manix at some point before shooting him, and afaicr the only person who did is Grass, who's an Insomniac. If it really was a town-sided kill, they should claim IMO. If they claim at MYLO/LYLO saying they're Town Dayvig, that'll be highly unbelievable for me.

[Zkirsche]

qajugvbreodgao people should stop crumbing stuff when there's no reason to.

Also I was hooked. Meh.

scum dayvig or someone who just doesn't know Manix's meta very well, I guess

This is pinging me because I'm pretty sure you didn't need to know his meta to think he was town.

lso, people HAVE self-voted themselves before only to cool down later and unvote.

I can't recall something like this. I'm pretty sure I only self-voted myself when I was scum giving up and I think it's pretty clear by now what my opinion of overly emotional responses to being suspected are. The hammer was admittedly bad, though. It worked on GB in CYOC so I was quick, too quick, to accept doing it here.

Even if you think hammering is stupid in that situation, what makes me scum over a poor judge of circumstance? It's a bit of jump for me to go from null --> more scummy than your one scumread.

Speaking of one scumread, I actually ISO'd you because I thought that thinking that would be a mistake, but you held your vote on GB all of D1 and commented very little outside of that. You raged at Shmo/mei a bit, responded to something Zell said and called Poly's lynch priority terrible, but never expanded on your read on him or specified it. In fact, you never caled the lynch priority terrible when he made it, but when someone defended him, suddenly you found it terrible. You have a post inbetween that one and his post with his lynch priorities, so why didn't you bring it up then instead of when Prims defended him? Looks bad.

If you're worried about an early hammer, don't give someone else a chance to hammer.

He wasn't worried about early hammer, he said he didn't see any reason to worry ("vote: Polydeuces until someone tells me that hammer too soon would be bad").

##Vote: Boron

Willing to give BBM benefit of the doubt because I read some C9++ overnight because I was bored and I dont want to spend two games tunnelling on someone. Refa is ok recently.

Boron > BBM > GB

Didn't really read GB's night stuff. Zell was a dumb placement.

@Prims: wrt the disconnect, I'm pretty sure I responded to that in my previous wall; check my ISO. Also his overdefensiveness later on played a part.

[Momentai~]

Sorry guys, would have posted near the end of day one had that hammer not come down early lol

Anyways, I'm going to post the final thoughts of my scum buddy per his request right now and I'm also gonna post what we discussed as well in a bit. So... flood warning. Soon. I've got a question that I want answered first. And I can't apologize enough for the inactivity. Will get some substance in before work today. >.<

RIP SB

rip manix, rip me, fuck that hammer etc



Thoughts are scattered because this is a ton of shit that I (SB) posted in the QT overnight.



WAGON ANALYSIS

Poly (7): SB, Refa, BBM, shmobum, Poly, Grassbridger, kirsche



SB: obvtown corpse

Refa: had an early poly vote, but all it was to get him to respond to his post. of course he's inactive so i'm not sure how much can be drawn from this anyway. (reasons were a few posts ago though). had no poly interactions after the vote

BBM: defends poly early on, switches votes pretty suddenly imo, only said one thing before that, was no real transition aside from that to "oh he's scummy now" and then when he says "as i said earlier" it feels kind of like he's pushing his read as a lot older than it is

shmobum: reactionary vote, bad

Poly: ffs

Grassbridger: his vote bugs me because he's really waffly and he just says "i guess it's ok for me to vote until someone tells me to unvote to stop quickhammers..." Worse reasoning than the kirsche vote imo

kirsche: hammer was dumb but idk, his play aside from poly interactions has been good imo?



HOWEVER kirsche doesn't see what was scummy about poly at all until i made my case, avoids contributing extra reasons as to why, before the hammer without anyone asking about it.



grass is slightly better in this regard since he was suspicious of poly earlier and interacted with him but his play on the whole hasn't been great either



grass' initial poly vote which he seems to pride himself on is about poly thinking too hard, i don't like it



eury's first post is her waffling on 3 players and a gut scumread. not good. she focusses too much on her gut in general imo in place of actual scumhunting



refa's first content post is quietly pushing the bbm wagon because he was defending himself in place of scumhunting (when he couldn't really do much because only bbm/prims were responding much to him) but doesn't drop a vote.



grass' period of votehopping seems to use a lot of other people's reasoning and not too much of his own, don't like it



boron's points on grass are true but at the same time i feel like she's painting his actions in the worst possible light when she votes him in #155. if you generally overlook something big then one person can be all you need to set you right

would like you to explain each part of this post (why is the rage townie, forced scumhunting)

bbm reads like he's annoyed because he's stuck being attacked by something he can't really defend against, rather than faking being mad, and my point was that his scumhunting DIDN'T seem forced.



I was initially susper suspicious of kirsche due to the hammer, but I feel now like scum!kirsche wouldn't have risked that unless both of his buddies were on the wagon. kirsche was pretty much my strogest townread last phase and I don't think that he would risk that as scum when he could just continue to mole hard? #Wifom arguments



BBM jumping to the conclusion is pretty suspect, and I do agree that it's likely between him/Prims who shot Manix. Despite seeing his rage being townie this big jump to accuse Prims seems really out of place. Not sure if I would lynch it but still.



Refa bugs me because he has pretty much no content on anyone other than Poly, and he waffles on half of the reads he promises in his post.



Shmo/Mei feel like noobtown to me, but I think I need to clarify something before I out why



Prims bugs me but idk why, I agreed with more or less everything he posted yesterday except BBM suspicions sl eh



would be voting refa right now, if not grassbridger

I will brb, just wanted to get some of it out now.

[BBM]

Running late but Refa just spent last night after phase started speaking asking people questions and asking them to clarify. He doesn't really give reads or even opinions on anything until his latest post, where everything is taken from what someone else said. He mentions he didn't like some of Grass's night stuff, but doesn't go into any detail, and his Troll suspicion is basically just saying he's inactive, which isn't really scummy.

[Grassbridger]

First,
##Vote: Eurykins
Nothing has changed this

1) I'm not BBM so the comparison is awful
2) Waffling (not sure if it makes me scummy or not); attempting to slander without good reason
3)See SB's #98; he made a similar joke that I did, and yet you never found him scummy for it, and bonus points for sb flipping town

1) my thought was that scum would be more likely to joke about themselves being scum than town would...
2) "attempting to slander without good reason" is some flowery language there but doesn't mean much. Waffling shouldn't be surprising or scummy in the context of posting my opinions on every single person in the game
3) Well I didn't notice SB's joke during my reread. Would have found it the smallest bit scummy as well but probably a little less scummy--scum!SB would only have made that joke if Zell was scum too, IMO, so that's less likely to begin with. BY THE WAY this is why "well why did you single me out for X when person A also did X" may be a valid question but is a bad reason to find someone scummy, since it can often be answered by "I didn't notice person A doing X"

how is this scummy?

What was quoted was supposed to be not-scummy, I was saying Manix wasn't tunneling BBM too much

doesn't have a concrete opinion, looks liike scum fearmonging

pffff no it doesn't
that's just ridiculous hyperbole

no seriously what the hell
prims' #148 was just giving reads, what is this nonsense about consolidation? explain to me what you even mean here

Oh I probably should elaborate on this... Prims' #148 mentions like every person with votes on them and nobody else. It felt like he was intentionally commenting on the major wagons, which is fine I guess but AFAIK the only reason you specifically comment on the major wagons and no one else is at consolidation time. I dunno, it felt weird.

does the same for prims as he did to me: reads the same

grass's #120 is a huge backpedal on BBM and it looks really bad in hindsight; reads like he was trying for a opportunistic lynch/bus (probably a bus imo) but got stopped in his tracks

If Manix really wanted to find me scummy I guess I can see where this comes from, but I would argue that "retracting an awful argument" is null at worst.

Ugh, I have a really bad headache right now so I'm not going to be speaking much until this gets better. But for now ...

##Vote: kirsche

What the hell was with that early hammer, man? That's far scummier than anything Polydeuces did in my book. Also, people HAVE self-voted themselves before only to cool down later and unvote. Discussion doesn't necessarily stagnate after a self-vote, especially with that much time left in the phase, and your hammer was bad.

Grassbridger's vote on Poly is better explained at least, even if I still don't like the reasoning. If you're worried about an early hammer, don't give someone else a chance to hammer. Also, townies have proven to be capable of being frustrated to the point of being defeatist and anti-wincon.

I wasn't worried about early hammer but I thought maybe I should be, so I was asking people if I was missing something

To be clear, I do find Grassbridger scummy. His thoughts on Manix, BBM, and Prims are pretty waffly. The lack of conviction on his overall thoughts for them does not really make me happy. I just feel kirsche's hammering is just as telling if not more.

Soooo last night I gave reads/opinions on LITERALLY EVERYONE and I put off those 3 til last because I was having trouble reading them. Do you think I should have a solid read on everyone in the game by N1? I don't.

Scum dayvig or someone who just doesn't know Manix's meta very well, I guess ;/

What does Manix's meta have to do with this?

im guessing that kill was not from town because 1) lol anonymous daykills and 2) lol if you thought manix wasnt obvtown

I didn't think Manix was obvtown, as I said during the night... why was he obvtown?

Honestly, that's part of the reason I'm reading him as town atm. I don't feel like scum would be so open about their thought process.

[...]


I had some issues with his night posts, although I don't believe there's any scum intent in them.

What kind of issues do you have where you don't see scum intent but it's still pinging you? And why are you applying "open thought process=town" reasoning selectively? (I would argue that my thought process was laid pretty bare during N1)

I haven't put down a vote yet because it's pretty late and I'm too braindead to think things through atm. For reference, people who are pinging me at the moment are [...] GB (I had some issues with his night stuff)

Yeah I'd like to see that post you mentioned. Also FWIW Zell might have been inactive due to posting in Mason QT more than game thread.

I can't recall something like this. I'm pretty sure I only self-voted myself when I was scum giving up and I think it's pretty clear by now what my opinion of overly emotional responses to being suspected are. The hammer was admittedly bad, though. It worked on GB in CYOC so I was quick, too quick, to accept doing it here.

Even if you think hammering is stupid in that situation, what makes me scum over a poor judge of circumstance? It's a bit of jump for me to go from null --> more scummy than your one scumread.

[...]

Didn't really read GB's night stuff. Zell was a dumb placement.

First two quoted paragraphs are pinging because suddenly Kirsche is changing his reasoning for why quickhammer on someone very scummy is ok. Before, it was to avoid dragging discussion (like happened in AM/PM and to some extent CYOR when I was lynched) when things are a foregone conclusion. Now it's about lynching scum.

Kirsche read my stuff please :'(

RIP SB

Zell, you may be Mason (and barring alignment shenanigans, confirmed town) but please make sure that you post at all, including your own reads on people. Being confirmed town makes your voice that much more effective in scumhunting. (This post may be preemptive and I know you have posted already this phase, just sayin.')

Also totally unsurprised by Zell as mason since SB referred to him as his "scumbuddy" during RVS

[Momentai~]

Just gonna go down one by one.

Refa was pushing the BBM wagon at the time but hopped off of it to go for Poly (I can see why though, I personally didn't feel Poly was scum but he wasn't being particularly town either). Well it does look pretty suspicious if it's looked at from the angle of Refa going for the next easiest target (i.e. Poly and his strange reasonings and actions).

I was thinking he was town before, but it seems more and more like scum wagon hopping could be the case now that I've read his post in reaction to Poly's self vote. Something there seems weird. He has his vote on Poly and doesn't remove it after seeing Poly self vote despite him saying that self hammering is unproductive. If you think he's scum then why does it matter if he dies early and if you don't want the hammer to come down then why not unvote in an attempt to prevent it? On top of that it doesn't seem like he has said much himself day one aside from questioning the logic of others and putting some thoughts down on Poly, BBM, and a town read on SB. For day two he has BBM still, Kirsche and Grassbridger, and me. He only says others have good reasoning for the middle two but doesn't contribute any of his own thoughts on anyone aside from me (albeit with shaky reasoning, there is a possibility that I could have contributed more had day one finished at the normal time). Seems suspect but he says he'll post later to explain himself. For now...

##Vote:Refa

[Eurykins]

Ugh. Couldn't post last night, and now I'm stuck with crappy college campus internet to use while trying to post- fun times. :(

RIP to Manix and SB.

Refa: As far as I could see through his posts, they're fairly solid so far to me, for the most part. His posts regarding Poly's self-hammer, though, were... logical, but yet strange. I do agree with Zell's logic regarding Refa's lack of action/comments following Poly's self-vote. I was hoping for a clean town read on him, but currently... I'm not quite sure.

Grassbridge: [For one, I do acknowledge the fact that you did have prior thoughts regarding Poly, moreso than I thought, so I apologize for not reading that before.] His early posts regarding Poly weren't bad, though I was not fond of his logic against BBM (showing too much emotion); part of the reason why I didn't trust him. In addition, he accused me of attempting to manufacture a case against him, which led me to question his posts all the more. Lastly, the Poly vote last day phase, along with the night posts, I can't say those sit well with me. To vote for someone (and then beckoning people to give him reasons NOT to vote for him) seems pretty weird to me, and the night posts (I understood the request for me to post, which is why I was going to when the day phase started up), though appearing to be 'useful'... I don't know. Seems like you posted more than you needed to? Gut feeling is still lingering. (And if there are any other questions/pokes/inquiries you had of/to me, then do you mind requoting any? I'm trying to fully answer/respond to any posts that I can while dealing with horrible internets)

BBM: Early posts regarding his town read on Manix didn't seem too strange to me, nor were his emotions out of line for that of a townie (in response to all of the C9++ and other prior game connections that were being held against him for scum-tell/reads). One of the few things I did not agree with, however, was the comment regarding Kirsche's hammer vote. After all, wouldn't scum benefit more over town in cutting a day phase short (even if Poly was going to get lynched regardless- it's a point I failed to see fully when I self-hammered)?

Prims: Seemed pretty intent on BBM, concerning past games played with him n' such. And then a random vote on me (in which case, yeah, the "Grass wagon" was uninteresting 'cause at least to me, there wasn't one to begin with). And, as stated before, headaches and lack of sleep during the prior day phase meant that I was skimming over the thread, and at the times in which I was posting, Grass's posts were generally close by (meaning that I was looking/staring at them while typing out my own posts, so what he was saying seemed to stick out more obviously than any other person's. Which is why I was seemingly ignoring Poly.). Prims being prims, I'd go with a townish read on him.

Kirsche: Seemed to be on par with Prims in the degree of pursuing BBM's case/voting. Though I find the hammer vote against Poly as being highly questionable, I'm not getting super scummy vibes/reads on Kirsche as of right now, given the amount contributed + no real scummy actions/words. Null read atm.

Boron/Sangyul: Was interesting to see him also correlate C9++ game to BBM, but unlike Manix/Primss/Kirsche, actually used it as means/vibes to avoid voting on BBM at that point. His logic thus far seems sturdy enough- I'd put a townish read on him.

Meibum: ...The posting- somehow it burns my eyes to read. I do no like the way Mei's posts sounded, and even the reads themselves seemed half-hearted at best. The vote on Sangyul as well seemed to lack any means of reasonable logic. Scummy feels are scummy.

Shmobum: I didn't like the supposed 'test' response he gave, as well as the timing of the posting along with Meibum. Quite frankly, it's no surprise that anyone questioned what was typed, and the resulting Poly vote was based on someone reacting to it. I do not like the vibes from these last two. Scummy moreso than townie.

Troll: Playstyle is similar to that of One-shot thus far. I have no issues/negative vibes from him thus far.

Priority atm: Grassbridge > Meibum/Shmobum > Kirsche > Everyone else.

##Vote Grassbridge

[Momentai~]

Grassbridger:

Grassbridger votes Poly for 'grasping' and then proceeds to do the same thing himself. He recognized his error and changed his vote accordingly though. His use of ad hominem makes me feel weird about him though. I can't vote people for weird reasoning but this kind of thing just seems underhanded to me because I don't really see it as a valid form of reasoning. I don't know if that's just how he does things but it makes me think of him as scummy.

[bold in regards to Poly, rest to his Eurykins vote]

Then there's the period of votehopping not entirely based on his own thoughts.

Reading back now the latter part of my thoughts on his vote on Eury isn't right, he did dispute her post with valid reasoning and only said her [what he perceived as] bad attitude is what made him think worse of her after he was on her. The hammer vote? It seemed suspicious to me at first but after the claim I'm thinking it's more probable that he wanted to get to night phase so he could claim and write out his thoughts without interruption. Looked up insomniac and it's generally town aligned. I guess it's possible he could have a mafia variant of the insomniac role that makes him active all night and only be able to kill during the day or something but I'm willing to believe he's town since he was pretty solid during the night imo.

BBM:

Poor BBM, made a townread, defended himself, poked me for opinions (given his last game with me idk what to think of this, part of me is thinking that he (as town) knows I'll be more likely to post if he pokes me early and I'll be easy to read as scum, other part of me is thinking that he (as scum) knows my early posts are usually really silly and could possibly direct attention to me instead of him), defended himself some more, made some votes and gave some opinions on others. He has been contributing and he seems to have town's best interest in mind but just got upset at the possibility of being (mis?)lynched for reasoning he thought was invalid. Don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Pretty much think the same thing still, thus I'm leaning more towards town as opposed to null at this point. SB's thought on him (BBM jumping to the conclusion is pretty suspect, and I do agree that it's likely between him/Prims who shot Manix. Despite seeing his rage being townie this big jump to accuse Prims seems really out of place. Not sure if I would lynch it but still.) is a thing that makes me want to think twice about putting him as town.

PMP:

PMP did defend Poly but that doesn't mean he's safe since scum knows the identity of all (?) of the other scum. Attempting to go for "I told ya so" town cred seems like something that would be easy for scum.
Didn't give an explanation for Eury vote then moved to the newcomers. Jumping from the previous seemingly random vote to picking at the easy targets while still not giving a reason for the other vote doesn't seem right. It's possible Eury's vote could have been a prod. Null I guess. Not enough conclusive evidence to be placed in either category.

I missed his reason for voting Eurykins, oops. And it's not that the newer folks don't deserve to be scrutinized, it's just that in combination with him not giving a reason for voting Eurykins (stand corrected on that point, he did) it looked kind of scummy at the time. Looks like he's just analyzing everyone and he is attempting to hunt scum. I'm not getting anything bad from him at this point but SB has a gut feeling that there's something off about him. There is also that he picked up on Manix's role from his statement at the beginning of day two. However, I don't think the person who did it (assuming mafia here) would mention that they figured Manix had a protection role because that doesn't seem like a wise decision right after he was killed. On the other hand Manix's killer could know this and mention it anyway because of the thought process of it being too obvious. idk, mindgames

I'm thinking null now.

Preparing for something a bit later on now and on top of that it's taking me a long time to get through this thread because my internet keeps going out every two minutes. Could have posted a bit faster were this issue not happening. It only happens when I'm on SF which is really weird. Anyways, in a rush here, will get back with other stuff at the end of my shift.

[shmobum]

##Vote: kirsche

Agreeing with Sangyul here. Kirsche seemed pretty eager to stop the flow of conversation and remove Poly from the playing field. Being a new player I think I'm beginning to understand how it works, and from what I see what kirsche did would only make sense if he was scum or a new player who didn't understand that the time we have to discuss is valuable.

[Guest meibum]

Alright so I finally caught up on all the reading and I'd just like to say RIP SB and Manix.

Now, down to business I supposin'

@Prims: Shmo and I know eachother yes, but we've never played mafia together or ever. We signed-up together because we thought it would be fun. I read a guide for beginners on the internet about how it works, but it's obvious we are painfully new at best. I'm not very good at reading him, since I don't have any past mafia games to base on how he would act if he was scum/town. On top of that there is a lot of lack of content for him in general. So I'm undecided still. I'm going to let him fly under the radar for now and focus on the people whom I'm actually think are scummy.

I don't read Kirsche as scummy. Yes the early hammer was a bad judgement call, but Poly did self vote and the discussion didn't seem like it was going anywhere fast in another direction. People were voting for Poly left and right, it was bound to happen. I don't know a lot about mafia, but I'm guessing the first lynch is sort of a shot in the dark so maybe Kirsche wanted to just get it over with? I don't know. Especially reading his response on #332 doesn't ping my as scum. Opinions though.

I find Boron pushing a vote on Kirsche just for that to be a little suspicious.

BBM is definitely acting less scummy now. I agree he was scummy in his first few posts, but I'm reading as town currently.

I don't think Refa is scum to be honest, I think he's posted a lot of content (this is based on the fact I posted 11 pages in and read that huge chunk in one sitting). I wouldn't say it's suspiciously over posting or under posting. Still reading as town.

Eury you are showing some flawed logic here. Instead of accusing why don't you just ask? It seems like you're just voting GB because he voted you. Is that what 'gut feeling' translates to. And then you don't like the way my post was written? These are some pretty weak arguments. They may seem half-hearted because I'm new to this. I tried to give my first impressions on everyone since Manix and Boron wanted them. And Boron was just being hostile and mean in general to Shmo and I. Now D2 I'm trying to figure out how to read better, but I don't have past mafia games to refer to and such like everyone else. I don't know how 'scum and town are suppose to act'. I am reading everything people write and forming my own opinions based on action and reaction. Also I posted at the same time as Shmo because like I said we signed up together and we're online at the same time, and then we go and do something else. If we were scum would we really make it that obvious by posting at the same time? Come on. Grasping at straws here

It seems like you're forcing these reads on us without any good reason and that is very scummy.

So,

##Vote: Eurykins

[Prims]

kirsche: Why are you not reading the posts of somebody you think is scum?

shmo: Are you going to answer my post?

Grass: Giving opinions on the main suspects is pretty normal when you have them (it's definitely better than ignoring them!). I dunno what to tell you since this is something I and other people do regardless of alignment. Manix being obvtown was part meta, part careharding the most out of anybody with the way he pushed BBM.

Dislike Eury arguing that Grass "posted more than necessary" because really, he had an entire night phase to himself, what was he supposed to do? Maybe if the content was forced/weak but I'm not reading it that way.

[shmobum]

Well I can see how you would have thought I was scummy because I myself made a dumb decision voting BBM right off the bat, just following suit of others' posts. You didn't seem to have a history of making quick accusations like Poly did either, so I figured it was just a fluke.

[Eurykins]

Eury you are showing some flawed logic here. Instead of accusing why don't you just ask? (1) It seems like you're just voting GB because he voted you. (2) Is that what 'gut feeling' translates to. And then you don't like the way my post was written? These are some pretty weak arguments. (3)They may seem half-hearted because I'm new to this. I tried to give my first impressions on everyone since Manix and Boron wanted them. And Boron was just being hostile and mean in general to Shmo and I. Now D2 I'm trying to figure out how to read better, but I don't have past mafia games to refer to and such like everyone else. I don't know how 'scum and town are suppose to act'. I am reading everything people write and forming my own opinions based on action and reaction. Also I posted at the same time as Shmo because like I said we signed up together and we're online at the same time, and then we go and do something else. If we were scum would we really make it that obvious by posting at the same time? Come on. (4) Grasping at straws here

It seems like you're forcing these reads on us without any good reason and that is very scummy. (5)

So,

##Vote: Eurykins

1. What exactly am I accusing anyone of doing, precisely? Also, who exactly should I be 'asking'? If you're referring to yourself, then I saw little interest in directing a simple question to you, as you showed no obvious signs of posting again anytime soon, after your quick window of posting and then long silence for the rest of the first day phase.

2. My vote extends from my vote since Day 1. In addition, GB was the one who flipped his vote against me for one post that I made. I have remained steadfast in my vote/gut reads since then, even after reading back on his postings.

3. Arguments? I stated my thoughts, and, even if I get bad feelings from what you're saying/posting, I have made no intentions of legitimately gunning for you (or rounding others up to support my thoughts) to be lynched. Imo, you're being pretty damn defensive over someone's comments- someone who even hasn't even voted against you.

4. So? I joined the Mafia forum/games recently as well, tagging along with Shinori (he was in the first two games as an active player), and just because we're usually online (and we tend to game together) at the same time does not mean one or the other cannot check in/post at different times. You two are two separate entities and can likewise post/contribute at different times. Knowing another player in this thread/spending time with them doesn't retract from what posting you should be doing on your own.

5. Excuse me if I'm mistaken. But I do not believe I've stated anything that even implied "All of my reads, I hereby force upon all of you guys to take, receive, and to apply to all of your mindsets/votes because I can". I also did state my reasonings behind whether I felt scum, townie, or null reads/vibes from people. In addition, I responded to GB's request for me to post more about my thoughts, reads, etc., which you would've known about had you read his night posts.Though I'm here to likewise help in finding the scum in this Mafia game, I can't help but feel that you're the one who's grasping at straws here.

[Sunwoo]

This is pinging me because I'm pretty sure you didn't need to know his meta to think he was town.

That wasn't my point when I made that statement. My point was that the only way I felt Manix's shooter could still be town was if they were a new player who didn't know Manix's meta AND thought he was scummy.

I can't recall something like this. I'm pretty sure I only self-voted myself when I was scum giving up and I think it's pretty clear by now what my opinion of overly emotional responses to being suspected are. The hammer was admittedly bad, though. It worked on GB in CYOC so I was quick, too quick, to accept doing it here.

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that others feel the same way, you know. Mancer self-hammered as town in schoolteacher. Manix self-voted as town in Xenoblade and unvoted again when he calmed down. BBM self-hammered as town in C9++. Objection self-voted/hammered as town in Touhou. People get emotional as both town and scum. Just being emotional in itself isn't a scum tell. Also, stop talking about ongoing games.

Even if you think hammering is stupid in that situation, what makes me scum over a poor judge of circumstance? It's a bit of jump for me to go from null --> more scummy than your one scumread.

Because the way you did it was absolutely scummy. You pretty much went "yeah now discussion is going to stop this sucks hammer shut up". You don't early hammer without making sure that everyone else is okay with an early hammer. You especially don't hammer when there was still plenty of time and potential for discussion. It just THAT scummy to me to the point where I'm sure you're scum because of it.

Speaking of one scumread, I actually ISO'd you because I thought that thinking that would be a mistake, but you held your vote on GB all of D1 and commented very little outside of that. You raged at Shmo/mei a bit, responded to something Zell said and called Poly's lynch priority terrible, but never expanded on your read on him or specified it. In fact, you never caled the lynch priority terrible when he made it, but when someone defended him, suddenly you found it terrible. You have a post in-between that one and his post with his lynch priorities, so why didn't you bring it up then instead of when Prims defended him? Looks bad.

This is an outright lie, kirsche, I DID bring up his lynch priority in that "in-between" post. Here, I'll even quote the part where I originally called his lynch priority terrible:

Also not a big fan of Polydeuces either. His lynch priority reasons (the two inactive people being second for being inactive) and Eury for "being dickish" is terrible, in addition to persistent "Snoop" logic. (And don't call BBM stupid, seriously, is this really going to make him any more likely to post?)

I clearly said I was "not a big fan of Polydeuces", and if you can't tell that means "I find him scummy", I don't know what to tell you. I have maintained that it was terrible since I had the chance to comment on it.

He wasn't worried about early hammer, he said he didn't see any reason to worry ("vote: Polydeuces until someone tells me that hammer too soon would be bad").

I either misread or misunderstood it then. My bad.

Also, meibum, an early hammer like what kirsche did is JUST THAT BAD in mafia. There are times when an early hammer is beneficial, like an oracle scan or a cop report that confirms someone as guilty, in which case you DO want to turbolynch scum so they can't fuck around with town. Or cases in which discussion had actually stalled and has shown no signs of picking up. The way kirsche hammered is just THAT bad because Polydeuces was not outright confirmed scum, he didn't consult with anyone before hammering or get a claim, and we had time left in the phase to get other discussion out.

[Eurykins]

Dislike Eury arguing that Grass "posted more than necessary" because really, he had an entire night phase to himself, what was he supposed to do? Maybe if the content was forced/weak but I'm not reading it that way.

It just came off as a sort of rambling feel- I half-expected more of one large post, as opposed of multiple posts. It makes sense, in the case of waiting out the night and picking up more thoughts and posting it. His posting was more active/frequent than I expected.

[Zkirsche]

HOWEVER kirsche doesn't see what was scummy about poly at all until i made my case, avoids contributing extra reasons as to why, before the hammer without anyone asking about it.

This is wrong. Did you even make a case?

First two quoted paragraphs are pinging because suddenly Kirsche is changing his reasoning for why quickhammer on someone very scummy is ok. Before, it was to avoid dragging discussion (like happened in AM/PM and to some extent CYOR when I was lynched) when things are a foregone conclusion. Now it's about lynching scum.

I was ok with lynching Poly and I was ok with quickhammering so I quickhammered Poly.

though I was not fond of his logic against BBM (showing too much emotion)

Whoa there were like 3 of us pushing him at the time and this was part of all our arguments, especially mine. You even called Manix a town read early on despite the fact that this was his logic originally.

the night posts (I understood the request for me to post, which is why I was going to when the day phase started up), though appearing to be 'useful'... I don't know. Seems like you posted more than you needed to?

This makes it seem like you don't want to see GB as town, calling his posts 'useful' but still using it against him.

Priority atm: Grassbridge > Meibum/Shmobum > Kirsche > Everyone else.

Why am I on here if I'm a null read?

Also why are your second highest scumspects D2 based on vibes?

Why are you not reading the posts of somebody you think is scum?

Why are you not responding to the posts of somebody you think is scum even though you've clearly read them? (wrt Poly 'disconnect' and hammering)

I will get around to it when I feel like it's worth pursuing. Probably. Maybe. Meh. If it isn't obvious by my lack of response though, there's nothing glaring recently which is cool.

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that others feel the same way, you know.

I don't read games I don't play in so the only example of it is Touhou (although tbh Objection! was new that game so that's different, Poly's played enough to know this buy now). If I don't know how someone will act then I will base it off how I would act and think and what is the norm, and it clearly isn't the norm.

You don't early hammer without making sure that everyone else is okay with an early hammer.

Anyone that asks for someone else's opinion on whether they should do something or not is clearly too self-conscious to be town.

You especially don't hammer when there was still plenty of time and potential for discussion.

It was like late in D1. "plenty of time" is an overexaggeration.

I clearly said I was "not a big fan of Polydeuces", and if you can't tell that means "I find him scummy", I don't know what to tell you. I have maintained that it was terrible since I had the chance to comment on it.

I keep getting bored reading your wall and I just didn't notice it somehow. WHAT IS READING COMPREHENSION.

Ftr I was talking about pages 9/10.

cases in which discussion had actually stalled and has shown no signs of picking up.

FMPOV discussion at the time was minimal (probably my timezone-goggles but there you go) and in the discussion before that there was a lot of unneeded crap going towards Mei/Shmo (some from you) and some ridiculous argument involving the meaning of the word semantics. Do you really think discussion wouldn't stagnate at all, and even so do you think it's completely unreasonable for someone to think that discussion wouldn't stagnate considering it's what SF does every single time someone is almost confirmed to be the day's lynch candidate? You're blowing this way out of proportion, Boron.

Boron > BBM > Eury >> GB

[Sunwoo]

I don't read games I don't play in so the only example of it is Touhou (although tbh Objection! was new that game so that's different, Poly's played enough to know this buy now). If I don't know how someone will act then I will base it off how I would act and think and what is the norm, and it clearly isn't the norm.

I don't care if you don't read games you don't play in. But just because certain things happened in games you don't play in, that doesn't mean it didn't happen and such behavior doesn't exist. This stance of yours is really starting to get on my nerves because you're being so narrow minded about this.

Anyone that asks for someone else's opinion on whether they should do something or not is clearly too self-conscious to be town.

No, it's not. While town doesn't need to be self-conscious, they can't and shouldn't just do everything by their own beck and call just because THEY think it's a good idea. If I asked people if they wanted me to hammer 15 hours before deadline at a point when discussion was stagnating or whether they thought that there was still some stuff that could be said, am I being too self-conscious, or am I just trying to gauge what everyone else besides me thinks?

It was like late in D1. "plenty of time" is an overexaggeration.

It wasn't that late, we were more like halfway into D1. Regardless, I still had things I wanted to say and Prims has also said that he could've continued discussion. This still doesn't change my point that you cut off discussion without the slightest bit of thought as to whether other people would've had anything else to contribute even after that self-vote, and I think that's scummy.

I keep getting bored reading your wall and I just didn't notice it somehow. WHAT IS READING COMPREHENSION.

Getting bored reading my wall is not really my problem.

Ftr I was talking about pages 9/10.

And what about pages 9/10?

FMPOV discussion at the time was minimal (probably my timezone-goggles but there you go) and in the discussion before that there was a lot of unneeded crap going towards Mei/Shmo (some from you) and some ridiculous argument involving the meaning of the word semantics. Do you really think discussion wouldn't stagnate at all, and even so do you think it's completely unreasonable for someone to think that discussion wouldn't stagnate considering it's what SF does every single time someone is almost confirmed to be the day's lynch candidate? You're blowing this way out of proportion, Boron.

You hammered at my 9:23 AM. I am asleep at 9:23 AM. A lot of the players in this game are closer to my time zone than yours, and I suspect they are either at school during this time or whatnot. "Time zone goggles" is hardly an excuse for hammering because "FMPOV discussion at the time was minimal".

I think that discussion might have been able to get somewhere, and maybe Polydeuces would've calmed down and unvoted, or maybe claimed and that might have changed people's minds. I still think the way you hammered is scummy. That is not blowing it out of proportion.

Also, for the record, Prims is also voting you because of your hammer. He thought it was just as bad too. What are your thoughts on him? Am I the only one who's scummy and "blowing it out of proportion" even though Prims is also voting you for it?

[Refa]

Refa: had an early poly vote, but all it was to get him to respond to his post. of course he's inactive so i'm not sure how much can be drawn from this anyway. (reasons were a few posts ago though). had no poly interactions after the vote

Yes, my early vote was a pressure vote, but his lack of replies + later posts made it a for serious vote, or whatever you want to call it.

refa's first content post is quietly pushing the bbm wagon because he was defending himself in place of scumhunting (when he couldn't really do much because only bbm/prims were responding much to him) but doesn't drop a vote.

I had an RVS vote on BBM already at that point...The fact that I didn't change my vote should tell you something.

Refa bugs me because he has pretty much no content on anyone other than Poly, and he waffles on half of the reads he promises in his post.

When was this? On D1, I had two scumreads which I was clear about (BBM and Poly; BBM's later D1 content being why I didn't push him as hard as I could have), and a townread on you (and some others that I didn't out at the time).

Running late but Refa just spent last night after phase started speaking asking people questions and asking them to clarify.

I have one D2 post that doesn't have any reads in it...

He mentions he didn't like some of Grass's night stuff, but doesn't go into any detail,

I had some issues with his night posts, although I don't believe there's any scum intent in them. I made a post about it during N1, but it's on another computer atm so I can't pull it up. :\

Anyways, I flashdrived it over.

and his Troll suspicion is basically just saying he's inactive, which isn't really scummy.

It's more because I felt like he was lurking rather than he was inactive. I specifically remember him being on the thread a few times without dropping any sort of response, even when IIRC someone called him out on it. Apparently he's Mason though, so that makes more sense now.

What kind of issues do you have where you don't see scum intent but it's still pinging you? And why are you applying "open thought process=town" reasoning selectively? (I would argue that my thought process was laid pretty bare during N1)

I don't see any scum intent in your actual reads. For the most part, the logic is fine, and as you've stated, yes I don't think scum would be that open. What's bothering me is your defense of your vote.

Boron/Sangyul: Was interesting to see him also correlate C9++ game to BBM, but unlike Manix/Primss/Kirsche, actually used it as means/vibes to avoid voting on BBM at that point. His logic thus far seems sturdy enough- I'd put a townish read on him.

How is this a townish action?

Go read AM/PM (I think), and the day I was lynched in CYOR. Any time someone does something so scummy as to be irreversible (such as getting scanned by an unCC'd cop, or getting hooked on a night with no kill and no other way of stopping the kill) you don't really get much more discussion after that point. I think this falls in that category.

How in the world is Polydeuces’ case comparable with the aforementioned examples? The two scenarios in question both had decisive evidence strongly suggesting a player was scum, while the latter had nothing of the sort.

My vote should probably read as null to very slightly town, pending flip:

-if Poly is scum, then scum actually want the day to drag on in order to derail discussion on anyone who will be alive tomorrow, but also want to make sure to bus for towncred. Town wants to get on to the next day ASAP, though.

-If poly is town, then scum want to stay off the wagon of someone who's done something so incredibly scummy, because they know others will ML them. Town still wants to get on to the next day ASAP.

Your first point is nonsensical; scum benefits from a lack of interactions, not more of them. There’s a reason why actions such as lurking and self-voting are considered scummy. Your second post is just WIFOM, plain and simple. Mafia needs mislynches, and I don’t see why that would change just because a townie painted a target on themself, set up various signal flares to alert anyone within a 100 mile radius of their actions, and boldly announced to the world “I AM SCUM”. If anything, it would make justifying the mislynch on the following day a hell of a lot easier.

So scumreading my vote is silly, as is the rest of your read on me.

Self-voting is always an anti-town action, so I don’t have any problems with your vote. However, all of this retroactive justification strikes me as though you are trying to make your case out to be stronger than it actually was (read previous replies).

Thoughts on Refa:

Finds Poly scummy for associative reads without a flip. Poly was doing a lot of scummy things but I don't think this was one of them. Then (in the same post) he rereads and says "oops wait I was wrong" and says "still don't like it but I feel better" which reads waffly to me. He spends a long time talking about/responding to Poly but says he can't get a read on him. Could be scum!Refa seeing a lot of scummy things and knowing Poly's not scum.

I’ve already stated that Poly’s suspicions on BBM were bad because they were based off his read on me. Then while rereading my post before submitting it, I noticed Poly also mentioned BBM had exhibited similar behavior to snoop. That was a fair point, so while the initial reason still bothered me, I was finding his post less scummy as a whole…which is why I didn’t end up voting for him at the time.

Not sure how you got the impression that I spent a long time on Poly without getting a read on him. Literally one post after I stated my thoughts on him, I voted him.

Quick thoughts regarding the rest of your reads;

Eurykins: Don't really agree with your logic in regards to her using her own experiences, I wouldn't even call that bad play honestly. However, it does bother me that she's spent most of the game basically gunning after you with minimal reads on other people.

PEDit: Her recent reads post was good. Don't really agree with her lynch priority, but her arguments for the most part are logically sound.

Boron: Kind of bothers me that you believe that she's town because of only one post. Not all posts by scum will give off scumvibes.

kirsche: I dunno, you seem to be nitpicking a lot in regards to him. Considering you've stated that you didn't consider his hammering to be scummy, not sure why he's a null read (most of your other thoughts on him seem to put him in leaning town).

BBM: Don't really have any issues with this one.

Prims: Honestly, I agree with you in regards to his Eurykins vote. It came across as a little weak, and IIRC he didn't justify it much at the time. WRT Polydeuces, Prims' thoughts on him didn't come across to me as scumbuddying with a townie.

Ugh, I was planning on having reads in this post, but it ended up taking way too long to write. :\ Will have them on the next one, minus Zell's because I don't want to waste my time reading confirmed town.

[Eurykins]

Why am I on here if I'm a null read?

Also why are your second highest scumspects D2 based on vibes?

Because you're what I'd consider the null read who has the highest 'scum vibes' currently, given the action that took place at the end of Day 1. Basically, remaining 'null, but leaning scum'.

And it was based on my impressions of them- the content in which they posted, the frequency (or lackthereof), and the timings. In addition, after the reaction, vote, and comments from Meibum, she's given me no reason to remove her from said list.

[BBM]

I'm just reading a distinct lack of effort from Prims at this point that I dislike. 2/3 of his scumspects, Eury and Kirsche, made large posts full of stuff to analyze, yet in both cases he looks at what they're saying extremely superficially. Eury posts opinions on every single player in the thread and he looks at one sentence from her GB vote. I mean, I agree that Eury's reasoning about GB posting too much is highly questionable, but it just feels like a really easy thing to point out. And again with Kirsche he looks at like one sentence in his response to Boron that's easy to push at but ignores everything else, including the part that's directed towards him (the explanation of the Poly disconnect).

I think Kirsche/Boron is a town slapfight. Yeah, there's scum benefit for Kirsche in hammering early, but does it really outweigh the bad image he gets from quickhammering a townie? Why do that when there was little suspicion against him, and to Poly of all people, who's gotten mislynched in like every game he's played bar one? The only possible reason I can see scum doing that is if their buddy was a counterwagon, but IIRC I was the second wagon, so FMPOV I know that can't be the case. And considering Kirsche was bordering on tunneling me D1, it doesn't make sense for him to suddenly pull away from the hard bus even if we were scumbuddies. Less sure about Boron but nothing she's really done has seemed that bad to me and her reaction to Manix dying didn't seem fake.

Will maybe get to Refa and Eury after dinner.