Did Fire Emblem move in the wrong direction?

[Ownagepuffs]

"Ive played the series longer than most of these casual zombies. They never knew what they are talking about!!"

This is why we cant have nice things. Kelsper is right, balance has never been the name of the game, and its rather useless to keep complaining when its not everyone else who has a problem.

Aw come on Loki you know I didn't mean it like that. It's not that someone who's only played Awakening instantly has no idea what they are talking about, but anything they say regarding the series (as opposed the merits of the individual game) would lack the weight of experience compared to someone who has actually played the series.

I didn't mean it in the sense of a comparison of the knowledge in the series because obviously I might have more of an input when talking about the series as a whole compared to someone who has just played Awakening. I was meaning it more in the sense that reading over a lot of what people want here has lead me to believe that I want very different things from either the old school fans who want a return to old and the new fans that have just played Awakening. Plus IS has seemed to have somewhat shifted their goals as well, which is understandable considering they would be somewhat stupid not to take advantage of what they have as a business with a need for profit. In this regard, I'm not sure my ideals now either match with either side (to call it sides) of the fanbase or IS. So perhaps 'out-of-touch' wasn't the best phrase to use, but I hope you get what I mean.

This was a waaaaaay better way of putting it.

IS is a business first and foremost. FE is a product designed to sell. There was no way FE was going to not ride Awakening's success and that is something an older fan will just have to swallow, like it or not. I wouldn't be surprised if the next 2 or 3 titles are Avatar Emblem.

And here's the thing: Nintendo could have designed all of Awakening's maps brilliantly, they could have written the characters far better, they could've written the 3-plot story to not be the clusterfuck that it is, and they could've had more chapter mission objectives, and I'd bet the game still would have sold as amazingly as it did. It begs the question as to why Awakening sold so well.

Marketing + Timing + Accessibility, with a spritz of pandering. Throw in some honestly fun gameplay and truckload of content and bam, sales.

Edit: I think Accessibility was the biggest factor after marketing. Imagine how many people wanted to try the series out after Smash Brothers but didn't because perma death. Casual mode alone is the reason my friend bought the game.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[RJWalker]

Sorry Own age but I'm not going to just 'swallow it' when it comes to the new direction. Bitching about it on GameFAQs is too much fun.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

I honestly want Fire Emblem to keep on experimenting, not stay like Awakening or go back to an earlier game. IS has experimented a lot throughout the series, and I like most of the things they did. I enjoyed FE2's general weirdness, FE4's generational system, Capturing, Rescue, BEXP, and playing as multiple factions. One of the greatest strengths of the series is how much the developers are willing to deviate from the original formula while still making it feel like Fire Emblem. I hope that later Fire Emblem games retain most of the core aspects, but I also want them to be nothing like anything that's come before, because I find that when IS breaks from the original formula, they usually succeed (with the exception of Awakening.)

[arvilino]

Aw come on Loki you know I didn't mean it like that. It's not that someone who's only played Awakening instantly has no idea what they are talking about, but anything they say regarding the series (as opposed the merits of the individual game) would lack the weight of experience compared to someone who has actually played the series.

From the early 2000's to now the people who've played the series overall tend to get stuck into a rut until a new perspective comes about, the early 2000's character tier lists were something to behold in retrospectively considering how adamantly people believed in them despite these would have been the same people who played the most entries at the time.

Personally I think new players/perspectives/ideas are usually more interesting to consider than the wheeling around of the exact same mechanics, discussion and arguments over and over. When we see feature like the Magic Triangle's +/-1 damage, +/-10 hit being treated as a game changer or vital to strategy by people who've played several games I think we see about as much weight of experience as a helium filled balloon.

For me atleast I think it's lucky Intelligent Systems aren't afraid to experiment with new concepts and make changes in each entry.

[Ownagepuffs]

Sorry Own age but I'm not going to just 'swallow it' when it comes to the new direction. Bitching about it on GameFAQs is too much fun.

GFaqs is another story, lol. I mean for the most part you do have to swallow it since it's happening anyway and no amount of dislike will all of a sudden stop the game's production. Bitching can be pretty fun though.

Oh and aside from pair up, Awakening didn't really innovate or experiment. They haphazardly threw a bunch of popular mechanics into a blender so I'm not sure why Awakening is getting props for being innovative and progressive and what not.

[Axie]

Look what happened to Final Fantasy, after all...

... it was hugely successful from day one and changed radically every main game? lol

it's not even possible to compare both franchises, they have had entirely different journeys

the true problem with final fantasy is that it now takes them fucking forever to release a game because they are too busy with ff14 and how is that in any way similar to fire emblem

[eclipse]

Oh and aside from pair up, Awakening didn't really innovate or experiment. They haphazardly threw a bunch of popular mechanics into a blender so I'm not sure why Awakening is getting props for being innovative and progressive and what not.

Probably due to how everything came together. For example, children can be optionally recruited, as opposed to the meat grinder that is FE4. Skills are learned via classes, which in turn can be changed. Forging is a blend of the DS weapon selection and the Tellius limiters (somewhat). And then there's those cute little event tiles that give all sorts of neat bonuses, along with birthdays, and the ability to shop via Streetpass so that some of the better weapons can be obtained earlier. . .

If you wanted to break the game at Chapter 4, you could. If you wanted to do a strict run, you could, too. It's flexible, and I think that's a good thing.

[Katie]

Probably due to how everything came together. For example, children can be optionally recruited, as opposed to the meat grinder that is FE4. Skills are learned via classes, which in turn can be changed. Forging is a blend of the DS weapon selection and the Tellius limiters (somewhat). And then there's those cute little event tiles that give all sorts of neat bonuses, along with birthdays, and the ability to shop via Streetpass so that some of the better weapons can be obtained earlier. . .

If you wanted to break the game at Chapter 4, you could. If you wanted to do a strict run, you could, too. It's flexible, and I think that's a good thing.

This sums up pretty much exactly why Awakening is my favorite game in the series (And I've played every game but the Tellius ones). It just has so much replay value due to how flexible it is.

Also, a lot of those things the OP mentioned are hardly some thing I missed. The magic triangle had such a miniscule effect that often times I forgot it even existed. Dark magic is strong against anima? Big whoop, my Lute can utterly destroy that Shaman anyway.

I do agree about the mission variety though. One of the few things I dislike about Awakening is that every story chapter is either kill the boss or route the enemy, with maybe an added objective of keeping a certain character alive.

Regarding those staves, I can't think of a time I've ever used them. I couldn't care less whether those staves were in the game or not.

I personally hate fog of war maps, and am glad they're gone.

Ballistas are a bit of a mixed bag for me. On one hand, they were fairly fun to use, on the other, it was annoying as hell when the enemy used them.

I disliked weapon weight as well, and am gad it's gone. My biggest issue was the fact that there were some pretty heavy tomes. Under no circumstances should a freaking book ever be that heavy. It felt like an attempt at realism that failed to deliver.

I do admittedly miss the steal command. I'm glad they don't need lockpicks to open stuff anymore though.

Rescue would be very redundant if it were included in FE13. Why rescue when I can pair up?

I don't really have an opinion on the last two.

[General Banzai]

Awakening's best innovation was having the characters talk during battle animations

I'M GOING TO KILL YOU~

[Nobody]

wrt weight thing

I don't really care whether or not we have weight/con/etc since I'll strategise around what I have for each given game. However, should it return, I want the distributions to be balanced better and for god sakes please make more than like, 2 female units with over 7 con in any given game thanks we're not that tiny ffs

And while I understand the female rescue formula is to prevent units Florina from having 20 rescue, but not all women are tiny and should con/rescue return please change the rescue formula to mount-based rather than gender based because Vaida's 12 con ass should not be riding a dragon 5 sizes smaller than Heath's just because she's a woman

Anyway I don't really care what FE does with its mechanics overall as long as it still plays like a strategy game and is entertaining enough; Having some variety of mechanics every few games ain't so bad.

I want con back, but I agree with your points. Isadora having such a crappy con is something that bugs me to this day

Maybe they could make pegasus have less aid than wyverns/horses(the latter having the same aid formula for both genres)? It kind of makes sense pegasi being able to hold less weight than dragons or regular horses

FE9 introduced Fixed Mode.

FE10 introduced universal supports (literally, anyone can support anyone else).

And, uhhh. . .FE1 introduced the damn series, and FE3 introduced items that influence stat growths (off the top of my head).

Fixed mode is something I'd REALLY want to see brought back to the series. Sadly, IS doens't really seem to be interested in bringing it back

[Thor Odinson]

I want con back, but I agree with your points. Isadora having such a crappy con is something that bugs me to this day

Maybe they could make pegasus have less aid than wyverns/horses(the latter having the same aid formula for both genres)? It kind of makes sense pegasi being able to hold less weight than dragons or regular horses

That's what I was thinking, aye.

[Loki Laufeyson]

wrt weight thing

I don't really care whether or not we have weight/con/etc since I'll strategise around what I have for each given game. However, should it return, I want the distributions to be balanced better and for god sakes please make more than like, 2 female units with over 7 con in any given game thanks we're not that tiny ffs

And while I understand the female rescue formula is to prevent units Florina from having 20 rescue, but not all women are tiny and should con/rescue return please change the rescue formula to mount-based rather than gender based because Vaida's 12 con ass should not be riding a dragon 5 sizes smaller than Heath's just because she's a woman

Anyway I don't really care what FE does with its mechanics overall as long as it still plays like a strategy game and is entertaining enough; Having some variety of mechanics every few games ain't so bad.

Omg this always bugged the hell out of me.

"Alright, let's get Hector back to the action. Wait, what? Vaida can't rescue him? God damn stupid female mounted con/aid." What's even funnier here is that Vaida wouldn't be able to rescue promoted Hector even with the extra 5 aid.

I didn't really know how to chime in on the weapon weight debate, but I would like the mechanic back, at least in some form. It seemed like something that was around to stay and I was pretty surprised to see it gone completely.

These.

Two.

Posts.

Holy shit. Isadora's shit ass con made me flip tables. Shes a fuggin' paladin for crying out loud. Why the hell cant she rescue drop shit and wield a freaking axe come on.

Once upon a time, FE was a wonderful niche series beloved for its challenging gameplay, memorable characters and a decent plot. Now it caters to the masses, makes idiots out of people ( waifu-wars, fetish fuel, shipping wars etc. ) where it has been watered down ( gameplay AND story-wise ) to cater for a 'wider audience'.

*sigh*

Yes, it has taken a step in the wrong direction. Look what happened to Final Fantasy, after all...

Yeah, gods forbid people like a thing, and a game that became more accessible saved the series from extinction. And the fandom got larger so we can have more FE games with new ideas. Thats just such a wrong direction all right.

Aw come on Loki you know I didn't mean it like that. It's not that someone who's only played Awakening instantly has no idea what they are talking about, but anything they say regarding the series (as opposed the merits of the individual game) would lack the weight of experience compared to someone who has actually played the series.

Come on, pizano, you know damn well im not just directing that comment to you in particular. Its to zombie-ass guys like the quote above this one that i direct that shit to. People get into the series through Awakening, get interested, play the others, and then form opinions. Im also gonna confess something: I never finished FE4, didnt get the good ending of FE6, never really played FE5, havent touched the first three games, and ive never even seen what FE12 looks like. Yet, ive been playing FE for what...uhhh...about 11 years now since FE7 been released? Awakening was the most fun i had in an FE in years. Most new fans dont really go off on too many tangents about game mechanics until they've played the other games. Its just you cant be all like that, ya know? We were all there once.

Personally, ive seen a lot of bullshit opinions from veteran players who've played all the games.

[Ownagepuffs]

Probably due to how everything came together. For example, children can be optionally recruited, as opposed to the meat grinder that is FE4. Skills are learned via classes, which in turn can be changed. Forging is a blend of the DS weapon selection and the Tellius limiters (somewhat). And then there's those cute little event tiles that give all sorts of neat bonuses, along with birthdays, and the ability to shop via Streetpass so that some of the better weapons can be obtained earlier. . .

If you wanted to break the game at Chapter 4, you could. If you wanted to do a strict run, you could, too. It's flexible, and I think that's a good thing.

I.. can't deny that. Awakening's got replay value, almost too much of it. How many pairings are possible? It's a big number. What sorta irks me is how you only have 26 chapters (plus some paralogues) to take advantage of what Awakening has to offer and only 13 to take advantage of the kids. Some of those kids are like mega hard to recruit so it may be even less for them. S ranking takes time, getting skills takes time, reclassing takes time. There's DLC but that's DLC.

It's so much content and not enough to use it on. I feel like Awakening gave me 1 billion dollars with only 24 hours to live but I also have to choice to reincarnate to use the 1 billion dollars on something else but each reincarnation is sill only 24 hours to live. With each increasing difficulty you get even less of an opportunity to use it all. It's weird to complain that a game has too much content but I hope I got my point across. It's understandable considering the all or nothing approach they took with FE13,

Come on, pizano, you know damn well im not just directing that comment to you in particular. Its to zombie-ass guys like the quote above this one that i direct that shit to. People get into the series through Awakening, get interested, play the others, and then form opinions. Im also gonna confess something: I never finished FE4, didnt get the good ending of FE6, never really played FE5, havent touched the first three games, and ive never even seen what FE12 looks like. Yet, ive been playing FE for what...uhhh...about 11 years now since FE7 been released? Awakening was the most fun i had in an FE in years. Most new fans dont really go off on too many tangents about game mechanics until they've played the other games. Its just you cant be all like that, ya know? We were all there once.

Personally, ive seen a lot of bullshit opinions from veteran players who've played all the games.

Oi, this is me. This is totally me. I started with Awakening, but in an effort to see where the complaints against Awakening were coming from (the way I see it, there had to be some basis for it, right?), I decided to play the series for myself. Since 13 I've gone through 4, 7, 8, 9, and 12. I see things differently now from when I first started (complaints about the world/lore are 117.24% justified, but gameplay complaints tend to be shaky at best), but I don't think it always plays out like my case.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

hell a buddyof mine started outwith 9, jumped into 13,then went into 7 and is now on 6, 7 is thier favorite right now interesting enough.

note i did not not recommend a single entry, just gave them the emulators for the gba ones.

[Mighty Kamina]

I'm fine with the direction the franchise is heading. I had a lot of fun with Awakening, they just need to fix a few issues here and there. I think a lot of Awakening's issues come from it's simpler story (I'm pleased that FE14 has a new writer), and because it could've been the final entry IS kind of just threw in fan favorite mechanics into one game, without using them as well as some previous entries.

I think that since Awakening put the franchise into a much more comfortable position, we'll be seeing a bit more elegance mechanic wise in FE14 and later entries than seen in Awakening.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Iceclaw]

For a standard Fire Emblem player as I am, the game mechanics are the most important part of a Fire Emblem game for me.

I count this series as a round-based-strategy game and consequently I favour elements, which influence the strategy.

If the game mechanics aren't good, the game won't be good.

Anyway I see a development, which really worries me. The latest FE games especially FE13 are more focussed on waifu-stuff and fanservice than on good game mechanics and exciting maps. The traditional strategical part is faded more and more in the backround.

Since after FE10 none of the latest FE games have good game mechanics imo.

11 and 12 are only just forgiveable, because they're remakes. But at the latest FE13 made at least one step in the wrong direction.

Many old classic mechanics are gone:

• magic triangle
• missions like defend, escape, defeat in xx turns
• staves like sleep, silcence, berserk (I even have more ideas, but oh well)
• fug of war maps
• ballistas (they even existed in FE11 + 12)
• weapon weight (should be fixed)
• steal command for thieves
• rescue take and drop are removed
• enemies have healing items and trade them each other
• enemies uses staves like warp and rescue

Therefore it intodruced the pair up system, which is unbalanced and no alternative of the classic take and drop. On higher

difficulties the classic 1vs.1 battles don't exist anymore.

• Do you agree with my statement?
• Which Fire Emblem game has the best game mechanics?

Nope, sorry. Magic Triangle is only useful when you separate mages in wind/fire/thunder classes. Staves are just a status check and do not involve strategy in any way when you face them. Ballista are bit too much of a hard counter to Flyers, giving them a fixed arc would make them better, FoW maps are just usually pretty annoying, and weight is a broken mechanic that can't be fixed. rescue was turned into Pair Up, and while Pair up need some tuning, it's serves a similar purpose.

Enemies using Warp feels pointless, and they can trade healing items, at least in a few games in the serie.

While FE13 had some weak points, I still think it has one of the best gameplays in the serie. However, it's kind of edged out by FE9, which feels the overall tighter experience. FE10 is up there, though as it does try to innovates a bit, even if some of thoses innovations don't pan out. Finally, FE5 is kind of the same, clever use of its mechanics, but it's buried in a lot of downright annoying bullshit hindrances.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Iceclaw

[Gradivus.]

Ballistae were no hardcounter in DSFE because there were different ballista weapons (which is how it should return if it will), as opposed to fixed ballistae usable by both sides' bow users. also, fliers were somewhat counters vs ballistae on DSFE because Dracoknights and Falcoknights can outrange and ORKO with Silver or Devil weapons

Edited January 22, 2015 by Gradivus.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Nope, sorry. Magic Triangle is only useful when you separate mages in wind/fire/thunder classes. Staves are just a status check and do not involve strategy in any way when you face them. Ballista are bit too much of a hard counter to Flyers, giving them a fixed arc would make them better, FoW maps are just usually pretty annoying, and weight is a broken mechanic that can't be fixed. rescue was turned into Pair Up, and while Pair up need some tuning, it's serves a similar purpose.

Enemies using Warp feels pointless, and they can trade healing items, at least in a few games in the serie.

While FE13 had some weak points, I still think it has one of the best gameplays in the serie. However, it's kind of edged out by FE9, which feels the overall tighter experience. FE10 is up there, though as it does try to innovates a bit, even if some of thoses innovations don't pan out. Finally, FE5 is kind of the same, clever use of its mechanics, but it's buried in a lot of downright annoying bullshit hindrances.

• I meant all types of ballistae (stone catapult, thunderbolt, arrowspate, hoisteflame etc.). Only arrowspate is effective against fliers.
• I find staves actually pretty useful in some points (disabling long range magic with silence etc.). However there are too few situations in the previous FE games you can really make good use of them
• Fug of war is a mechanic of real life and it increases the variety of maps.
• The last two mentioned points are improvement suggestions for the A. I., how it existed in Tellius.
• Weapon weight is an own topic for itself. It's hard to come to a compromise. However I still think the best solution is, if the skill stat is the buffer, because it wouldn't disadvanantage several classes.

Edited January 22, 2015 by The Taninator

[Gradivus.]

would skl-based weight make a large difference? I consider 15 wt being on steel axes and hammers, and reaching 15 skl isn't too hard, all it would change is encouraging a sub-1000g investment into skl tonics for your axe user. earlygame fighters would become much less painful to deal with, but there are enough ways of dealing with them anyway, especially jagens.

[Axie]

well if it was skill based, weight would be higher... and everyone would grow out of losing AS like they do in the strength based system anyway

weight should always matter or at least take some effort to overcome, instead of being attached to a random growth

[Refa]

Another thing weight helped with was to stop Hero weapons from being OP as fuck. Look at the games where Hero weapons either have no weight/weigh the least (FE4, FE11 doesn't count because they were online only, FE12, FE13), and yeah...

[dondon151]

and yet people get annoyed when they can't 4x everything in the world with their favorite brave weapons.

[Iceclaw]

• I meant all types of ballistae (stone catapult, thunderbolt, arrowspate, hoisteflame etc.). Only arrowspate is effective against fliers.

Why not. Problem is, they kind of neuter strategizing considering they render positionning pointless on most cases.

• I find staves actually pretty useful in some points (disabling long range magic with silence etc.). However there are too few situations in the previous FE games you can really make good use of them

I'm more talking about when they are wielded by opponents. They might be fun to play when on your side, though.

• Fug of war is a mechanic of real life and it increases the variety of maps.

Dragging real life is not a good idea. FE is not really realistic in the least, what with all the magic, people having a hive mind, being utterly fearless, and fifteen year old kids growing into killing machine slaying ten men at once. FoW is usually pretty annoying in the sense the IA don't play with it at all.

• The last two mentioned points are improvement suggestions for the A. I., how it existed in Tellius.

It did exist in FE7, though. But yeah, it should return, to a point: Making the IA too preoccupied with its survival and the game turn, again, annoying.

• Weapon weight is an own topic for itself. It's hard to come to a compromise. However I still think the best solution is, if the skill stat is the buffer, because it wouldn't disadvanantage several classes.

That's the best solution only because it means weight stop being an issue past a certain point in the game.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Iceclaw

[eclipse]

and yet people get annoyed when they can't 4x everything in the world with their favorite brave weapons.

That's only for Awakening

Unless the enemy is super-tanky, two hits with a Brave Weapon is usually sufficient. I don't mind if those weapons are especially heavy, because you already strike twice with them.

[Gradivus.]

@Axie: you'd ignore earlygame. what do you suggest as the weight of steel axe and hammer if 15 is too low? 30? steel axe would be unused in midgame (where you think that weight could stay relevant by increasing it) and replaced by forged iron axe. and the players would be thanking you for dropping lunatic ch2 enemies' attack speed down to essentially 0. complicated strategical decision became an "oops can abuse it, try better next time, weight!" situation. wouldn't that trivialize weight too? and you cannot argue increase iron axe weight. you'd drop AS too far, especially early on. plus weight is not supposed to weaken enemies, you said yourself that the purpose of it is hindering swordmasters from spamming strong weapons, thus reduce their speed (which would be contradictory to your suggestion because SMs have exceptional skill).

Edited January 22, 2015 by Gradivus.