Do you 'support' LGBT supports in "Fire Emblem: if"?

[Blaze The Great]

Don't worry, I'll try to be more concise with my idea and I don't want spark a flame war either on religious grounds. Now I know that at least in the US, one third of the population is non-religious taken from most likely a census. Still, this doesn't account for people who are more lenient in their views and are more detached from their church but they still believe God exists. These people generally agree with the matters surrounding the world or take a neutral stance at least regarding issues like these.

I say this more because of personal experience since more people I know are departing from the ideas that they were taught in Sunday school. I apologize if perhaps using most people was a bit magnanimous, but that's just how I see it personally.

Oh no it's fine. That last bit wasn't directed at you, it was an all-encompassing remark for everyone. Also, I see what you were saying now, and I definitely agree. Many of the people in my youth group really don't seem to take church seriously. I don't mean that in a judgmental way, but that is my own personal observation.

[EJ107]

I still have a faint glimmer of hope in my heart that it will happen, and I definitely want it to. I don't take as much of kamui-centric view of it as some other people do though- i'd be just as happy if it's two other units of the same gender who aren't Kamui that can S rank.

But it's important to remember that the game is being produced in Japan and Japan has a... less than fantastic history of LGB portrayals in it's media. You get a few gems like 'Wandering Son' that show that there are indeed Japanese writers who understand sexuality and gender identity and how they differ, but most Japanese media has "gay" and "transgender" as interchangeable (they literally share a word in the Japanese language). Then you have BL, which has two male characters in a romantic/sexual relationship yet they are usually "straight but makes an exception for x" or other baffalingly stupid scenarios.

Things are a little better for female/female relationships, with the exception that they aren't taken seriously and are seen to exist solely for either titillation or as "practice" for said girls expected future relationships with men.

So yeah... as much as I want it I can't see it being likely given how little Japanese media actually handles things like this seriously. And I have a horrible feeling that even if it did it would be done incredibly poorly and come as across as offensive.

[The Archsage]

I really don't care, but if they do that, there's guaranteed to be people disappointed at not being able to S-Support whichever character with their preferred gender of Avatar.

I think they should either leave it as is (don't fix what's not broken), or make all the characters bisexual so that everyone can S-Support whoever they want, regardless of gender.

[dragonlordsd]

I don't mind, but I was really annoyed that people complained about no LGBT S ranks in awakening. Seriously, if they had included them it would have caused a ton of problems.

[Carter]

I wouldn't mind homosexual pairings.

If they're in, great, why not. If they're not, well that's just too bad. I think it's interesting, and in the case of the new Fire Emblem, I do actually hope to see some pairings of the like.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I don't mind, but I was really annoyed that people complained about no LGBT S ranks in awakening. Seriously, if they had included them it would have caused a ton of problems.

only because of the children system, when you put in a child system there is literally no reason to do a gay pairing.

then again all the children are pretty pointless in 13 and it can be beaten without them...

[dragonlordsd]

Yeah, the child system really messed it up. I mean, if you didn't know what you were doing and you had, say, two girls S-rank, you'd accidentally lock out two characters.

[Viberum]

I'm all for the LGBT characters and supports. There's nothing wrong with diversity and I feel that people everywhere should be able to identify themselves with at least one character in a huge cast such as Fire Emblem.

[Hempmeister69]

I think it would be great if there were LGBT characters in the game. However, I doubt there will be anyone who identifies as trans. As for gay or bisexual characters, I think there's a rather large possibility considering the fire emblem "amie" mechanic and lack of a need for children this time around.

Regarding their implementation, I have to admit I haven't seen many characters of the nature in JRPG's, let alone well written (Kanji Tatsumi). However, that isn't to say the possibility isn't there. In my opinion, games like Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect have characters who are far from being singularly defined by their sexuality.

[Shrouded In Myth]

They... they're Japanese. If you compare the facial structures of the drawings between Caucasian and Asian genetics they lean more towards the latter. Sure the kingdoms are generally based on western civilization, but that doesn't mean the characters look like white people. By that logic every Japanese schoolgirl in an anime has the tumblr definition white privilege.

I would say they simply look racially ambiguous. You know like the Simpsons; the Simpsons have absolutely no visual cues that they are white, but people think they are white because that is the default human in that setting. So since Fire Emblem takes place in a pseudo-European world they default to white. Interestingly enough, the characters that are from some sort eastern inspired country, like Say'ri and all of Hoshido, are not drawn any differently than the rest.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I think it would be great if there were LGBT characters in the game. However, I doubt there will be anyone who identifies as trans. As for gay or bisexual characters, I think there's a rather large possibility considering the fire emblem "amie" mechanic and lack of a need for children this time around.

Regarding their implementation, I have to admit I haven't seen many characters of the nature in JRPG's, let alone well written (Kanji Tatsumi). However, that isn't to say the possibility isn't there. In my opinion, games like Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect have characters who are far from being singularly defined by their sexuality.

funny thing, i actually was thinking of mass effect as one of the examples of bad portraits, at least when it comes to male shepard and his limited gay options, or the double standard that it had of "you could have a gay femshep since the first game and noone cared, but suddendly you can have a gay male shep in 3 and its a big deal"

thats for another thread tho

Edited June 6, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Draco]

I don't think Kanji Tatsumi is actually gay, just pretty feminine. The bathhouse thing was supposed to be symbolism, just like how Rise isn't a stripper and Yukiko isn't a spoiled princess. Kanji is written pretty well though so I'll give you that. This is for another thread though.

On topic, I don't think I'd actually want homosexuals in this game. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be pretty cool with it - I only don't want it because I know other people won't. There's people who'll be disappointed by the lack of sexuality diversity (me) but it'll be a minority compared to the people freaking out over gay people in their video games, y'know? That kind of attitude isn't fun to deal with.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

I'd really just like the games to focus around strategy and less pairings in general. Period.

[goodperson707]

I really don't care, but if they do that, there's guaranteed to be people disappointed at not being able to S-Support whichever character with their preferred gender of Avatar.

I think they should either leave it as is (don't fix what's not broken), or make all the characters bisexual so that everyone can S-Support whoever they want, regardless of gender.

Do you really see no problems or implications from making probably plus 40ish characters bi just so Kaimui can romance them? Yes you could S support everybody in awakening and they happened to be presumably straight (a few possibly bi) but getting someone to fall in love with you in a video game is hardly equivalent to this can of worms. And if they did that i have my doubts if they would make any (i think might add 2 token couples male and male and female and female to cover their ass but that is hardly a good thing) non Kaimui same sex relationships. I would prefer to go back to supports that will probably at least imply a same sex pairing or 2 than deal with everyone being bi. I guess they could do other sake sex pairings well but i doubt it and the implications are still there. And i would hardly say that the representation of minorities in media including LGBT is not broken. Wether or not it is IS job to fix that is a different can of worms entirely however. And there is gaurrenteed to be people complaining no matter how they handle it anyway. Or pretty much any thing in FE:if for that matter.

[Sniper Knight]

As someone who prefers girls, I would love to see this implemented, but I'm about 80% sure they would screw the LGBT characters up. In pretty much every video game I've seen, a gay character has their entire character arc/development based around the fact that they are gay. It would almost be like Awakening, where every unit has their own particular quirk. People would be more surprised to find out that I am not straight, even though I have done nothing to indicate a preference for either gender, than they would be to find out that I prefer oranges to bananas, even though I eat a banana for lunch every day and an orange twice a month. Granted, 90% of people are straight, so most people expect others to be straight. It's not worth having a gay character if they're not well not well written.

That being said, IS is a Japanese company, and I'm fairly sure that Japan is more conservative about LGBT than the West is, so we'll probably have more Lyn and Florina style implied pairings than open ones, which I'm more comfortable with anyways.

[BlueL]

I would not mind more diversity in the Fire Emblem rosters but wouldn't limit this just to sexuality. Racial diversity, ability-based diversity, age-based diversity etc. It hardly takes much to notice that the majority of Fire Emblem characters are white, able-bodied, young, and straight (and it can probably be argued that many forms of modern popular media in the Western world follows the same trend).

I'm not saying it's any kind of competition, because that would start a flame war that could probably burn the Internet itself.

Based on some of the logic on display in this thread, does the lack of a "Do you support elderly/ethnic/disabled characters with supports" imply we're all 'neutral' and therefore support the status quo of their relative lack of representation among FE casts? I'd be careful about confusing apathy for sexuality(or other issue)-related supports in a single video game series for supporting the lack of representation of non-heterosexual individuals in modern media and society.

Any character should be well written, no matter their sexuality. I'll get annoyed at characters that are one trick ponies whether that trick is "I like to fight", "I'm such a klutz" or "I prefer dudes to chicks".

One potential issue I can foresee with the implementation of non-heterosexual characters is this:

The average FE roster is about 40 and the average support pool seems to be about 8.

Let's assume that of those 8, 4 are with the same sex, 4 with the opposite.

In this hypothetical FE game, that would ordinarily mean 4 romance options.

You make one gay male character.

Do they still have to have the same ratio of romantic to non-romantic supports?

Having 4 romantic supports on a gay character would mean making four other same-sex characters gay or bisexual. I'm not saying this is in any way bad or wrong but if you write one good gay character would it then impact on the writing of other characters, especially if they take an already written character, slap a sticker that says 'gay' on the character and call it a day?

Furthermore, if representation was made to be accurate, in most parts of the world, 90+% of people identify as heterosexual. In a character cast of 40, does that only leave room for four non-heterosexual characters and what is equality in this situation?

I agree with this, more diversity in general would be nice, although given the technological era FE games take place in, I'm not sure how disabled a character could be and still be a soldier beyond lacking an eye. Or the whole weapon master who lost use of his good arm but is still a great or good fighter.

While you say that, you should know that judging others is also against your Catholicism, as God is meant to be the ultimate judge of people, not yourself or anyone else.

Not really up for a religious debate, but I can't say people won't have a problem with you calling it morally reprehensible.

Not that I think real religion has any place in deciding what goes on in FE, but I'm sure the Bible (not sure about Catholicism) actually says it's ok to judge something as a sin, just not judge the person committing the sin. I think it's like the idea of "just because someone did something bad doesn't make them a bad person".

That being said, it also says no sin is more or less (I'm paraphrasing) morally reprehensible than any other sin.

They... they're Japanese. If you compare the facial structures of the drawings between Caucasian and Asian genetics they lean more towards the latter. Sure the kingdoms are generally based on western civilization, but that doesn't mean the characters look like white people. By that logic every Japanese schoolgirl in an anime has the tumblr definition white privilege.

Anyways I'd much rather the characters be well written instead of having token options. Glorious character development is the number one goal and romantic relationships in any form don't outrank that. Sure having options would be great and I wouldn't have to play as Male!Kamui to hook up with Elfie, but who would really want to virtually hook up but not really with a one dimensional character?

Then there's the subject of race and.... yeah. Japan. Possible, yet at the same time highly unlikely. After all the entire equality demographics in businesses and such is largely a political issue in North America and to lesser extents of varying degrees elsewhere.

You're probably right technically, but like someone above said, they look pretty ambiguous racially in general. Someone like Say'ri is clearly supposed to be Asian, but I can't that Lissa or L'arachel is clearly Japanese.

[Viberum]

I feel like people being uncomfortable with this subject is another reason why LGBT characters and supports should be included. It goes to show that people haven't been exposed enough to this where it's still seen as something abnormal.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If there are more than just a very small handful of romantic supports, it feels wrong not to put in some same-sex options. At that point you're just excluding a segment of the population for... no real reason.

I'm not deathly attached to romantic supports, but if they come back, yeah I'd like to see some same-sex ones. I'd love it if they're brave enough to be fairly open about it, but I'd settle for the more common Japanese portrayal of heavy hinting (Vanille/Fang, Raven/Lucius, etc.) due to the cultural concerns there. While not optimal, it's certainly better than nothing. And I'm not too worried that LGBT characters would be played for laughs... FE has a few times at least hinted at some same-sex attraction and has always been respectful about it... well, at least in its PC cast (the recurring gay bandit duo could be brought up as a counterexample, I'm aware).

As far as how the game is received I think it'll be pretty laughable if the game allows incestuous S-ranks but not any same-sex ones. Rest assured that


Regarding the issue of the avatar character, I agree that making every character bi so that Kamui can romance all of them sends... awkward messages. But frankly? So does making every character straight, which is what Awakening did. Either way it feels like pandering to the player. A good reason to keep the number down. Some people just aren't interested in banging you, y'know? Maybe they don't swing that way, maybe they already have another relationship (e.g. Pent and Louise) and aren't interested in polyamory*, and maybe they just plain aren't interested in the main character that way!


*Though it would be really cool if at some point some FE character(s) were!

[Kikirini]

I want it, as I want to be able to play as myself (a lesbian), but the Japanese are pretty homophobic, so I don't see it being well done.

[Soapbar]

I mean, it's going to cause some sort of stink either way (No LGBT: "This is exclusive!" Yes LGBT: "Why do you need to pander to Social Justice!?) so you might as well. As long as it's handled well, it's ok (No shit really). At least If would get free press from Polygon

Obviously having the character go "Yeah btw I'm gay" isn't what I would say is handling it well.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Soapbar

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I mean, it's going to cause some sort of stink either way (No LGBT: "This is exclusive!" Yes LGBT: "Why do you need to pander to Social Justice!?) so you might as well. As long as it's handled well, it's ok (No shit really). At least If would get free press from Polygon

Obviously having the character go "Yeah btw I'm gay" isn't what I would say is handling it well.

i don't think i'd want press from polygon period, they don't like games.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I'd really just like the games to focus around strategy and less pairings in general. Period.

lmao. FE has been about pairings and relationships in a manner of speaking ever since supports were introduced. Deal with it.

[DSMinSC]

The idea of having LGBT character in a video game is always a good idea, but the problem that many game writers have is in how they are implemented in the story and such. Also, like most people, I enjoy fully rounded characters, and Fire Emblem has been getting better at it, I believe. Like the Support conversations in Awakening did show off different aspects of a characters personality, so I believe they could handle romance for non-straight relationships well. One interesting idea I had was that maybe not all characters could "S" rank with their preferred gender, so that way we wouldn't be controlling an Army of Bisexuals(TradeMarked), but rather they only fall in love with someone where it would make sense, like for example; Belka's blurb says they Camilla likes 'Strong Girls', so maybe Camilla could "S" rank with Belka or Elphie, but not Charlotte, so that way not all support conversations have to be leading to a possible romance but just friendship. I don't know, that's how I'd hope for the system to work, but as long as the characters are well rounded and make me smile, I'd be happy.

[Draco]

lmao. FE has been about pairings and relationships in a manner of speaking ever since supports were introduced. Deal with it.

They became second-nature in Awakening, children too. I think that's what they mean.

[Loki Laufeyson]

They became second-nature in Awakening, children too. I think that's what they mean.

Characters had multiple pairing options and paired endings since like, FE4.