General US Politics

[Lewyn]

So upside down triangle, I guess people who don't agree with him, we should be put into concentration camps?  The violent left mobs burning our cities to the ground!  Seriously, what is most disturbing that assumedly he thinks this would appeal to his base/supporters.  Which is much more disturbing that this would be politically beneficial to him, man is America so fucked. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

11 hours ago, Johann said:

For those that don't know, the inverted triangle was used in the badges for prisoners in Nazi concentration camps, with the color identifying prisoners. The red inverted triangle in particular referred to political opponents, particularly antifascists who directly opposed the Nazi party.

I guess you could say the masks have really come off during this pandemic

...huh, now I'm wondering if people waaaayyy into the future will have a different stigma around masks symbolizing trustworthiness or responsibility. Because all the people doing the right thing now wear masks. And we know super heroes aren't exiting the pop culture space any time soon. 

Anyway, the Supreme Court just ruled 5-4 Trump cannot end DACA without proper justification. This week is turning into all kinds of wins for marginalized groups.

[XRay]

5 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

Lincoln project is doing that beautifully.

Seems like a niche movement in the Republican party though. Not sure what proportion of Republicans would actually support them. I think Trump has an approval rating of like around 40-45%, and if we just assume Republicans and Democrats make up 50% of the population each, that is still like around 80-90% of Republicans who approve of him, which is kind of sad.

20 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Anyway, the Supreme Court just ruled 5-4 Trump cannot end DACA without proper justification. This week is turning into all kinds of wins for marginalized groups.

I think I remember reading/watching an article/video somewhere about how we still need to be cautious about praising conservative judges, as the the conservative judges who sided with liberal judges are usually textualists (I think that is the word they used?) who follow the letter of the Constitution and law. So if a law that was conservative came up and is not in direct violation of the Constitution, then our liberal judges would probably face more difficulty in getting support.

Found the CNN YouTube video. Textualism starts around 1:30.

Edited June 18, 2020 by XRay

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

I think I remember reading/watching an article/video somewhere about how we still need to be cautious about praising conservative judges, as the the conservative judges who sided with liberal judges are usually textualists (I think that is the word they used?) who follow the letter of the Constitution and law. So if a law that was conservative came up and is not in direct violation of the Constitution, then our liberal judges would probably face more difficulty in getting support.

Found the CNN YouTube video. Textualism starts around 1:30.

In cases like this I'm not worried if the Supreme Court is being "liberal enough". Never heard the word "textualism" but the question of whether judges should ever re-interpret the constitution on moral grounds is a centuries old one, and typically answered in the negative by most Justices. It's not their job description. What I was worried about instead was whether the Supreme Court would ever do their job and check the president when he wants to do something that conflicts with the law. 

[Lewyn]

Lincoln Project has to use bots like Republicans did and blitz their ads all through twitter so everyone sees them.  The ads are great, but people have to see them.

Also why do Democrats suck so bad at trash talking.  Can they hire comedians or journalists who excel at it to help them.  If they didn't suck so bad at this they would win a lot more.  Hillary's emails took precedence over Trump's grab em in the pussy and kiss em and they can't do anything video.  I mean seriously.  If they don't step it up, Republicans are going to blitz some really nonsense probably nothing in reality scandal about Biden and blow it up like it is the worst thing in the history of mankind.  Have commitees investigating Trump scandals continuously til the election and exposing them to the public and use those for trashy ads.  

Republican Candidate: Adolf Hitler   Democrat Candidate: Ghandi

I'm voting for Hitler, cause he is the lesser of two evils.  

[eclipse]

13 hours ago, Johann said:

This ad is sponsored by both Trump and Pence and are in their official FB pages. For those that don't know, the inverted triangle was used in the badges for prisoners in Nazi concentration camps, with the color identifying prisoners. The red inverted triangle in particular referred to political opponents, particularly antifascists who directly opposed the Nazi party.

We had internment camps before.  They sucked.  I'm disappointed but unsurprised that this happened again.

[Lord Raven]

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Lincoln Project has to use bots like Republicans did and blitz their ads all through twitter so everyone sees them.  The ads are great, but people have to see them.

Also why do Democrats suck so bad at trash talking.  Can they hire comedians or journalists who excel at it to help them.  If they didn't suck so bad at this they would win a lot more.  Hillary's emails took precedence over Trump's grab em in the pussy and kiss em and they can't do anything video.  I mean seriously.  If they don't step it up, Republicans are going to blitz some really nonsense probably nothing in reality scandal about Biden and blow it up like it is the worst thing in the history of mankind.  Have commitees investigating Trump scandals continuously til the election and exposing them to the public and use those for trashy ads.  

Republican Candidate: Adolf Hitler   Democrat Candidate: Ghandi

I'm voting for Hitler, cause he is the lesser of two evils.  

Biden can trash talk.

Racist "f----folks"

Anyway, I think if Biden could survive Tara Reade unscathed (and people were out for BLOOD for Tara Reade), even after the initial allegations, and they keep throwing fake scandals at them until November then one extra scandal won't poke the bed of needles the republicans would have created for Biden by that point. Literally nothing can stick to Biden because he doesn't even try to hide whenever he fucks up. Clinton tried to do this and it did cost her; Biden says shit like "I'd rather make love to my wife every night than send my sons to war."

Edited June 19, 2020 by Lord Raven

[Tryhard]

16 hours ago, Johann said:

Not just that, but really the GOP's been attacking Hillary for decades and doing whatever possible to kill any goodwill or faith the public might have in her. Even in the early 90's it was clear that she was a strong contender for first female president.

-------------------------------------

In other news, further instances of Trump embracing fascist rhetoric and symbolism:

This ad is sponsored by both Trump and Pence and are in their official FB pages. For those that don't know, the inverted triangle was used in the badges for prisoners in Nazi concentration camps, with the color identifying prisoners. The red inverted triangle in particular referred to political opponents, particularly antifascists who directly opposed the Nazi party.

Also worth noting is this was pasted over 88 ads and the first sentence is 14 words. Both those numbers hold significance to a certain group of people.

hour ago, Lord Raven said:

Biden can trash talk.

Racist "f----folks"

Anyway, I think if Biden could survive Tara Reade unscathed (and people were out for BLOOD for Tara Reade), even after the initial allegations, and they keep throwing fake scandals at them until November then one extra scandal won't poke the bed of needles the republicans would have created for Biden by that point. Literally nothing can stick to Biden because he doesn't even try to hide whenever he fucks up. Clinton tried to do this and it did cost her; Biden says shit like "I'd rather make love to my wife every night than send my sons to war."

It probably is also worth something that Trump is managing to bungle several crisises right now.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Tryhard

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, Lord Raven said:

Biden can trash talk.

Racist "f----folks"

Anyway, I think if Biden could survive Tara Reade unscathed (and people were out for BLOOD for Tara Reade), even after the initial allegations, and they keep throwing fake scandals at them until November then one extra scandal won't poke the bed of needles the republicans would have created for Biden by that point. Literally nothing can stick to Biden because he doesn't even try to hide whenever he fucks up. Clinton tried to do this and it did cost her; Biden says shit like "I'd rather make love to my wife every night than send my sons to war."

Biden can trash talk, but Trump comes up with simple nicknames that stick and that Foxnews and other Right wing media outlets will play over and over again.  He repeats these nicknames constantly so everyone will remember them.  Look Biden is a man which is a massive advantage over Hillary, and people are right he doesn't have the baggage she does.  However I never underestimate how powerful Foxnews and the right wing attack ads are.  They use bot chains on twitter, huge ad blitzes.  They are getting their disgusting brainwashing false ads with no regard for truth to so many people.  I am shocked at how many people, some that I am friends with, buy into this crap.  The ads are simple, extreme, and easy to remember like what Trump says.  Biden and Dems need to follow suit.  Something like "Toddler Trump" and a lot of digs on his immaturity and tantrums.  Maybe some stuff with him in a diaper and stuff like that, stuff accusing him of not being able to hold his bowel movements.  Intelligence briefing....NAPTIME for Trump.  Showing him with a bucket of fried chicken in bed, while tweeting on his phone.  There is a treasure trove of stuff that Dems could use for nasty hurtful attacks on Trump and they should.  Employ digital audio, video, picture alteration too like Republicans do.  Class has no place in this fight, cause the opponent is the opposite of class and dignity.  

30 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Also worth noting is this was pasted over 88 ads and the first sentence is 14 words. Both those numbers hold significance to a certain group of people.

 

I didn't catch the number association, thanks for pointing it out!  I'm surprised news sources haven't jumped on that.  Whoever wrote this (Trump or otherwise) is then clearly a white supremacist or trying to appeal to white supremacists.  

[Dai]

Twitter actually branded this tweet of his as "Manipulated Media", a-la placing a "Fact Check" on a prior tweet of his. For context, this link contains the actual video that CNN ran regarding these two.

So, the king of branding everything as "Fake News", is actually tweeting out this malarkey. How much you wanna bet his base gobbles it all up?

[Armchair General]

Honestly, I think the number association is a bit of an stretch. I know Trump isn't the "best" president we had but no sane politician would go that far.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Armchair General

[Lord Raven]

3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

However I never underestimate how powerful Foxnews and the right wing attack ads are

A lot of the country knows Fox News is a bunch of bullshit. I don't even really care about Fox News at this point, the people who watch Fox News are entrenched. Cable news is dying.

I also know exactly what their power, reach, and limits are. I've been raging against the Fox News apparatus and all of that shit for at least 8 years just on this forum (and, I'd like to note my views have evolved greatly in 8 years, let alone the past four). It's really not at all unknown to me.

Ultimately, this might just be the simplest election possible. We should never be complacent about voting, but I do think that people will go out of their way to make sure this cunt doesn't get a second term, especially since Trump is a known quantity and a known clusterfuck.

3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Biden can trash talk, but Trump comes up with simple nicknames that stick and that Foxnews and other Right wing media outlets will play over and over again.  He repeats these nicknames constantly so everyone will remember them.  Look Biden is a man which is a massive advantage over Hillary, and people are right he doesn't have the baggage she does.  However I never underestimate how powerful Foxnews and the right wing attack ads are.  They use bot chains on twitter, huge ad blitzes.  They are getting their disgusting brainwashing false ads with no regard for truth to so many people.  I am shocked at how many people, some that I am friends with, buy into this crap.  The ads are simple, extreme, and easy to remember like what Trump says.  Biden and Dems need to follow suit.  Something like "Toddler Trump" and a lot of digs on his immaturity and tantrums.  Maybe some stuff with him in a diaper and stuff like that, stuff accusing him of not being able to hold his bowel movements.  Intelligence briefing....NAPTIME for Trump.  Showing him with a bucket of fried chicken in bed, while tweeting on his phone.  There is a treasure trove of stuff that Dems could use for nasty hurtful attacks on Trump and they should.  Employ digital audio, video, picture alteration too like Republicans do.  Class has no place in this fight, cause the opponent is the opposite of class and dignity.  

https://v.redd.it/q9xscx416q551

"He can run and drink water."

 

@Rezzy What do you think of Sartre's argument against the anti-Semite? You said something about how "silencing hate doesn't fix the problem," but there's no fix beyond heavily entrenched education and training programs at youth and hoping for the best after. The best you can do is prevent the spread of cancer.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Lord Raven

[Tryhard]

3 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Honestly, I think the number association is a bit of an stretch. I know Trump isn't the "best" president we had but no sane politician would go that far.

Not sure Trump really had any knowledge of this ad, but after the inverted red triangle that doesnt have any other meaning I do have to wonder about whoever was designing and running these.

[Crysta]

he likely doesn't compose or review the ads, he knowingly puts people like stephen miller in his orbit, so i don't really care if he's one or two degrees removed from direct authorship

 

[Karimlan]

8 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Honestly, I think the number association is a bit of an stretch. I know Trump isn't the "best" president we had but no sane politician would go that far.

White supremacists pick up the association regardless. You can ask any folk/Viking metal band who employs the use of runes in their artwork.

[Johann]

18 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I guess you could say the masks have really come off during this pandemic

...huh, now I'm wondering if people waaaayyy into the future will have a different stigma around masks symbolizing trustworthiness or responsibility. Because all the people doing the right thing now wear masks. And we know super heroes aren't exiting the pop culture space any time soon.

Incidentally, growing a thick beard, buzzing off your hair, and wearing sunglasses provide greater anonymity (and thus less accountability) than a surgical mask does. These are common among militant types and mercenary groups like Blackwater, and as such, Afghani people associate those features with violence and abuse.

[Armchair General]

3 hours ago, Karimlan said:

White supremacists pick up the association regardless. You can ask any folk/Viking metal band who employs the use of runes in their artwork.

I know that 14 88 is an Hitler reference, but I'm saying that it might be jumping the gun if you're only going by that.

[Lord Raven]

I'm sure the Qs and the supremacists will find the 1488 though. Dogwhistles aren't meant to be overt, but I'm also not sure I really care if they do that because 1488 is such a vague ass thing and I have to explain it to everyone I know.

(ftr, 14 is the 14 words about preserving the future of white children or some racist shit like that, 88 == HH == heil hitler)

[eclipse]

I think discussing whether those numbers mean anything is irrelevant, when there's a giant red inverted triangle in the middle of it all.

[Rezzy]

18 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

 

@Rezzy What do you think of Sartre's argument against the anti-Semite? You said something about how "silencing hate doesn't fix the problem," but there's no fix beyond heavily entrenched education and training programs at youth and hoping for the best after. The best you can do is prevent the spread of cancer.

Deciding what is hateful and what isn't is so nebulous, that I err stronger on more speech, not less, unless someone is directly inciting violence.  I can disagree with someone without wanting to silence their opinion.

[Lord Raven]

3 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Deciding what is hateful and what isn't is so nebulous, that I err stronger on more speech, not less, unless someone is directly inciting violence.  I can disagree with someone without wanting to silence their opinion.

It's really not that nebulous, but I don't think the government should interfere because it's at least somewhat nebulous. This is simply not the argument I am even discussing, since I think everyone in this thread is in agreement of this especially during this administration of all things.

But I think the citizens and private companies should take every step they can to both deplatform and educate because that's what's shown to work.

But again, what do you think of Sartre's view on the anti-semite? That was the crux of the question, because it 100% applies in general to deplatforming racism. I'll quote it for you.

Quote

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

(In my view, this is ultimately the crux of dealing with racists. The fact that you can make them empathize en masse is a naive white person thing, to be blunt. Sure, they will spread in secret, but it's better than letting them reach the average person. This is why we beg Twitter, Youtube, Facebook and etc to deplatform, rather than the American Government to intervene.)

[Rezzy]

9 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

It's really not that nebulous, but I don't think the government should interfere because it's at least somewhat nebulous. This is simply not the argument I am even discussing, since I think everyone in this thread is in agreement of this especially during this administration of all things.

But I think the citizens and private companies should take every step they can to both deplatform and educate because that's what's shown to work.

But again, what do you think of Sartre's view on the anti-semite? That was the crux of the question, because it 100% applies in general to deplatforming racism. I'll quote it for you.

(In my view, this is ultimately the crux of dealing with racists. The fact that you can make them empathize en masse is a naive white person thing, to be blunt. Sure, they will spread in secret, but it's better than letting them reach the average person. This is why we beg Twitter, Youtube, Facebook and etc to deplatform, rather than the American Government to intervene.)

Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc are de facto monopolies at this point, and I'm very hesitant to applaud them deplatforming people en masse for bad opinions.  China has an official social credit score, and I want nothing even close to that taking effect in the west.  I don't buy the argument that everybody that holds a controversial opinion is arguing in bad faith, and I don't want to start saying which opinions are and are not acceptable to hold, because that leads to an increasingly smaller and smaller echo chamber.

Sure, I'm mostly white, so I don't experience much racism on a day to day basis, but racism isn't the only kind of bigotry, and I'm a member of one of the most hated groups in the US right now.  It's not exactly something one can hide in real life, but I didn't even openly talk about it online much until recently, because being told to go kill yourself, or worse, is not fun.  JK Rowling has been in the news a lot lately for transphobic tweets.  Sure, I don't like what she said, and I'll even make my opinion known about that, but I'm not going to try to get her deplatformed from Twitter, nor will I agree with any attempts to do so by others.

[Tryhard]

Just now, Rezzy said:

Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc are de facto monopolies at this point, and I'm very hesitant to applaud them deplatforming people en masse for bad opinions.  China has an official social credit score, and I want nothing even close to that taking effect in the west.  I don't buy the argument that everybody that holds a controversial opinion is arguing in bad faith, and I don't want to start saying which opinions are and are not acceptable to hold, because that leads to an increasingly smaller and smaller echo chamber.

The funny part is that conservatives can't advocate for social media companies being regulated like public utilities without having to advocate for a left-wing solution, nationalisation. Something they are generally not in favour of.

The traditional right-wing argument is that they are private companies and therefore should be allowed to deplatform who they want.

[Rezzy]

3 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

The funny part is that conservatives can't advocate for social media companies being regulated like public utilities without having to advocate for a left-wing solution, nationalisation. Something they are generally not in favour of.

The traditional right-wing argument is that they are private companies and therefore should be allowed to deplatform who they want.

That argument loses its case once they become monopolies, so either trust busting or extending First Amendment protections to open platforms would be the solution, like telephones.

[Tryhard]

4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

That argument loses its case once they become monopolies, so either trust busting or extending First Amendment protections to open platforms would be the solution, like telephones.

I've rarely seen any conservatives that care about monopolies, they are usually the ones to almost always vote in favour of corporations.

I mean, I agree from a left-wing perspective, but it's kind of funny to me that conservatives are still advocating for public utility in this particular case.