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48 minutes ago, XRay said:

I was under the impression that even Republicans as a whole did not like Bush, or were indifferent to him to the point that they did not care the media negatively covered him. My parents are Republican but they never complained about the news being biased, although they were not overtly political either so maybe they just did not pay attention or did not care people disparage Bush. Other than wanting lower taxes, they did not really seem to care about anything else. My parents are the only Republicans I have known back then though, so maybe they were not representative of Republicans nationwide as a whole.

Your parents were not representative of Republicans during that era.  At all.  There was a general anti-Muslim sentiment, but the difference between Trump and Bush is that the latter wouldn't have cheered on a white guy bombing a mosque in the US.  We also had the opportunity to get rid of Bush in 2004 without having to worry about a bunch of lunatics showing up to disrupt the voting process.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

We also had the opportunity to get rid of Bush in 2004 without having to worry about a bunch of lunatics showing up to disrupt the voting process.

Enter John Kerry, who is relegated to the spot that George McGovern occupies in history: a candidate who had no impact on his presidential race at all.

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Just now, Karimlan said:

Enter John Kerry, who is relegated to the spot that George McGovern occupies in history: a candidate who had no impact on his presidential race at all.

It was a lot more boring, but in hindsight, boring is far better than volatile.  If the 2020 race remains an anomaly in US history, I will gladly take it!

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Gerald Ford at least made an impact: a physical one, when he fell onto the tarmac from the steps of his plane. 

Anyway, just injecting a little humor into things (besides, Ford was a Republican).

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9 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

but Confederate statues need to be held as a history lesson on what happens when you do not properly stamp out insurrection.

I'm not gonna address the rest of the stuff you guys have posted on statues cause I don't think it'd get much of anywhere and I think I've made my point as well as I can, but tbh I feel like the sentiment that insurrection is always bad is not what should be taken from these statues, since it can be necessary at times and serve useful purposes.

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My favorite Bush era relics:

EsBcvjLW4AIdhXm.thumb.jpg.d3972b316f67d71901fc1ed3a14a261e.jpgEsBZ7WYW4AIHXYc.jpg.37fd8100e2d12230027fcb30ef8b3553.jpgEsBZ7WZXEAIVRhP.jpg.3974bd55bc65e82cc6876cd21838cafb.jpgEsBZB38XEAAiNum.png.b8e0955c0615140994568bdaa74da961.pngEsBZD2uXAAQ6L2l.png.5d368f7be83f225e50c6d7613cad2c66.pngEsBZDCgW4AIvMwC.png.4730c84d5d8374314fd1dd05d6875d1d.png

Republicans bitch about Obama having a cult of personality but you've always been guaranteed a strong following among Republicans as long as you're Owning The Libs, no matter how incompetent you are. They consider it a patriotic trait.

A lot of these guys became anti-anti Trumpers so they'll hop right back onboard a more civil Trump comes around.

EDIT: And yeah a lot of the confederate statues were put in place during the Civil Rights era to intimidate black people in those areas, and a good amount of them aren't even in southern states. Get rid of them: they don't have any significant historical importance or significance.

Edited by Crysta

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28 minutes ago, Shipnoez said:

tbh I feel like the sentiment that insurrection is always bad is not what should be taken from these statues, since it can be necessary at times and serve useful purposes.

When you have Robert E. Lee himself say this in response to the idea of Confederate memorials and statues, you know your position is effectively shot in the foot:

"I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate thrks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered."

We effectively have nothing to discuss at that point.

Edited by Karimlan

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Just now, Karimlan said:

When you have Robert E. Lee himself say this in response to Confederate memorials and statues, you know your position is effectively shot in the foot:

"I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate thrks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered."

We effectively have nothing to discuss at that point.

This is actually something I brought up earlier. I was just pointing out that insurrections are not necessarily bad by their very nature. The American Revolution was one, after all.

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Sooo speaking of the insurrection, it's been only like two days since he's left office and we've uncovered like five more fresh crimes related to it lol. Do we wanna rush forward with impeachment or sit on it for awhile and let appointed special counsel get all the rats involved?

Edited by Crysta

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The mere suggestion that the American Revolution shares a common point with the insurrection of the Confederacy, or worse, the riot on Capitol Hill, is a very disingenuous and abhorrent one. Pretty much only ardent monarchists would hold that position, and you bringing that up is not just silly, but downright disingenuous, if the only purpose is to put your point across.

The statues need to go (to hell, one hopes). No form of healing can reasonably take place as long as these pantheons to hate, humbug, and hypocrisy stand.

Edited by Karimlan

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3 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

The mere suggestion that the American Revolution shares a common point with the insurrection of the Confederacy, or worse, the riot on Capitol Hill, is a very disingenuous and abhorrent one. Pretty much only ardent monarchists would hold that position, and you bringing that up is not just silly, but downright disingenuous, if the only purpose is to put your point across.

The statues need to go (to hell, one hopes). No form of healing can reasonably take place as long as these pantheons to hate, humbug, and hypocrisy stand.

Man, I'm a far leftist. Do you really think I support the Confederacy? This isn't me trying to say the statues should be left up. Tear em all down, for all I care. I'm just pointing out that the message that they carry should not be one of insurrection being bad by virtue of it being insurrection.

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I think we're capable of acknowledging context matters. I'm not sure why you think we don't?

Edited by Crysta

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So, since I'm the one who started this line of logic anyway ... I want to clarify that my point about "stamping out insurrection" was that the Union was quite lenient with the former Confederacy about letting them back into the U.S. A slap on the wrist, if you will, and some of the people who ended up in power not long after the Confederacy went away were people sympathetic to what it tried to do. My point was more that if people do a bad thing, you gotta treat it as a bad thing AND you have to educate people on the truth of why it was a bad thing. If you don't, people will lie about it and try to rewrite history to make the losing side seem like they were the "good guys".

People believing that the Civil War was about "state's rights" instead of slavery -- by a noticeable majority, if the Last Week Tonight clip is to be believed -- repeat talking points that were not ultimately true, and yet they believe it because they were taught it like propaganda.

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13 minutes ago, Shipnoez said:

I'm just pointing out that the message that they carry should not be one of insurrection being bad by virtue of it being insurrection.

Whoever gleans that quote from the exchange we are currently having will be so incredibly dense, s/he'll be laughed all the way out of this thread. 

Decades of propaganda have been perceptively baked into history books and proliferated by not-very-circumspect lessons, and we are, in our lifetimes, seeing the effect of such a lackadaisical approach to history: people believing that slavery went away after the Civil War, and African-Americans getting treated better after Martin Luther King declared that "he had a dream."

Edited by Karimlan

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8 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

So, since I'm the one who started this line of logic anyway ... I want to clarify that my point about "stamping out insurrection" was that the Union was quite lenient with the former Confederacy about letting them back into the U.S. A slap on the wrist, if you will, and some of the people who ended up in power not long after the Confederacy went away were people sympathetic to what it tried to do. My point was more that if people do a bad thing, you gotta treat it as a bad thing AND you have to educate people on the truth of why it was a bad thing. If you don't, people will lie about it and try to rewrite history to make the losing side seem like they were the "good guys".

People believing that the Civil War was about "state's rights" instead of slavery -- by a noticeable majority, if the Last Week Tonight clip is to be believed -- repeat talking points that were not ultimately true, and yet they believe it because they were taught it like propaganda.

Yeah this makes a lot more sense. Apologies for my misinterpretation. Like I said before, I agree with you guys that the Confederacy is indeed bad, yes. The statues should be removed as well.

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20 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

 ...if people do a bad thing, you gotta treat it as a bad thing AND you have to educate people on the truth of why it was a bad thing.

I can't put it any more succinctly than you did. Cheers 🥂

Trouble is, taking a walk on this responsibility has been repeatedly done, and we're seeing (and in some cases, feeling) the effects of these sins of omission that are just as bad as the acts that perpetuate racial inequality (sins of commission). 

Edited by Karimlan

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2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Sooo speaking of the insurrection, it's been only like two days since he's left office and we've uncovered like five more fresh crimes related to it lol. Do we wanna rush forward with impeachment or sit on it for awhile and let appointed special counsel get all the rats involved?

I could've sworn that the articles were going to the Senate soonish?  Or am I mixing it up with something else?

Though if they need more time to dig up dirt, then go for it.  I, for one, want to see how deep this goes, and how many people snitch on each other.

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No, they are. I'm saying there's probably room for even more charges if we're willing to wait.

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I mean, at this point, I feel like the impeachment will go through and be successful no matter what, and he won't have a Republican Senate to try to stop it or let him off the hook, so yeah I'd probably rather wait for more charges to pile up.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

do rudy

41NiNE76kuL._SY445_.jpg.5f7795809cc29b9cac496d0386e67a61.jpg

20 minutes ago, Shipnoez said:

I mean, at this point, I feel like the impeachment will go through and be successful no matter what, and he won't have a Republican Senate to try to stop it or let him off the hook, so yeah I'd probably rather wait for more charges to pile up.

He's technically already been impeached, but I'm not so certain that he'll be convicted. The more evidence we have the better our chances, though, however marginal it may be.

Republicans aren't sticking with Trump because they believe he's innocent, they're doing it because they've staked their careers on him and are terrified of angering his voters.

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Which leads to an interesting scenario, if Trump really goes on to make his Patriot Party and takes the voter base with him. The GOP pretty much already felt how that could go, in the Georgia runoffs.

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Those fucking Bush books brings me back to simpler(But still fucked up) times. Republicans definitely tried to make George W. Bush a big personality.

The issues was... Bush was just boring. And stupid. He seemed super down to earth and chill, but the man really didn't have much going on in the personality department besides being the president people wanted to have a beer with.

Just look at how fast they dumped him after the Tea Party took off. Clinton and Obama are still big parts of the democratic party, and names rally people around. Even Jimmy Carter still gets around. Bush's image of the "Cowboy president" didn't hold after he left office, and there's not much fanfare to seeing him because I think even republicans mostly know him as "The stupid one who started a bunch of wars".

Edited by Slumber

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9 hours ago, Crysta said:

Sooo speaking of the insurrection, it's been only like two days since he's left office and we've uncovered like five more fresh crimes related to it lol. Do we wanna rush forward with impeachment or sit on it for awhile and let appointed special counsel get all the rats involved?

Impeachment is a purely political remedy, so it doesn't really matter that they're prosecuting for every possible crime they can, as long as they impeach.

The rioters and instigators of it should be slapped with every law on the books that can be used against them in criminal court, though.

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20 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

This actually seems to depend more on who your teacher is and where you live.

While I haven't personally experienced it myself, I have definitely heard about students who did not properly learn about the Civil War and the Reconstruction Era and have a massive misunderstanding of some key components of those times.

That's absolutely true, I didn't consider that. I've definitely had a few pretty meh teachers, but I've generally had some great teachers for history. Outside of my experience, not everyone learns the same stuff. Different states have different curriculums, not to mention that different students will have different teachers (so they'll experience different teaching styles that may or may not match up with their learning style). All of my history education was in Virginia, so I'm don't know the full circumstances behind the history of other states and how U.S. history is taught in those states. However, that's more the reason to go research the history of other areas of the country and gain more perspective on things. You can never know too much.

Also, I was also considering to include in my initial reply how we have pictures of the statues on the internet, but I decided against saying so. After watching the video, though, I'll go ahead and include that sentence. There are plenty of other ways to record history outside of statues.

And those statistics that John Oliver shared about what people thought that the Civil War had started over concerns me, but that can sort of tie back into your point about things depending on who your teacher is and where you live. 

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