Jotari Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) Hypothetical case study. Woman wants a child, her husband/boyfriend/whatever doesn't. So she tells him she's on the pill only she's not in order to get pregnant. Do you consider that something immoral? The topic came up in conversation with my parents and I expressed my views that I thought it was deceitful, inconsiderate and showed a distinct lack of communication or trust. My parents (mostly my mother) basically said "lol Cillian, you're so naive. Women are hormonal and don't have a choice. They have a biological clock to deal with. The father will be fine with it when the child's born. If we left reproducing up to the men we'd all go extinct." It sparked a long debate but in the end it was a case of agree to disagree. What are your opinions on the matter? Edited August 6, 2015 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deviddo Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ...No that is incredibly deceitful, immoral, so on so forth. Your mothers views are simply sexist in nature. Women do have a choice to trick their lover into making a baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eail Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 It's incredibly fucked up and quite frankly your mother sounds like a terrible person that just wanted an excuse for whenever she acts crazy because "Oh I'm hormonal and I can't help it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borz Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ...No that is incredibly deceitful, immoral, so on so forth. Your mothers views are simply sexist in nature. Women do have a choice to trick their lover into making a baby. Just about what I wanted to say. Her views are sexist towards both men and women, and more importanly, women who act on these views can completely ruin men's lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ...No that is incredibly deceitful, immoral, so on so forth. Your mothers views are simply sexist in nature. Women do have a choice to trick their lover into making a baby. It's incredibly fucked up and quite frankly your mother sounds like a terrible person that just wanted an excuse for whenever she acts crazy because "Oh I'm hormonal and I can't help it" Pretty much these. Especially since a sizable chunk of men DO want children and it's largely Hollywood that pushes the 'men are terrified of having kids' thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Women are hormonal and don't have a choice. women love being generalized im sure gonna jump on the its sexist bandwagon for obvious reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Uh, normally, I don't step in 'Serious Discussion', not being that smart and all, but I'll do an exception. Isn't that illegal ? In some country I mean. That is immoral, and I don't want to say bad thing about your mother, or anyone else for that matter, but what she said make her sound sexist and terrible. It is not be noted that from you said, she wasn't really answering your question, just did as if it was the norm. Also, what, woman are hormonal they don't have a choice ? Uh, yes, yes they have. Men will be alright in the end ? This kind of thinking can ruin lives. Call me naive, but what's a baby ? It's an agreement, a complete trust between a man and a woman, If a couple have baby in such deceiful way, you got to question your life. :/. So yes, it's immortal, it's deceitful, it's even disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yari Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I don't think it's moral by any means. Having a child is a very important decision that should not be taken lightly. Hormones or biological clock are poor excuses for a woman using underhanded means to have a child with a partners who does not want one is deceitful. The couple needs to discuss it: how will a child change our lifes? Do we have the means? Are we ready for this? It's not just "Hey wanna have a baby?""Sure!" and pop! Baby! It's a new life that's going to depend on them for years to come. If the man doesn't want a child then it's okay. If there's a good reason to not have child then the couple should delay the pregnancy. Now let's say the couple didn't have this conversation the woman wants the child stops taking the pill lies to her husband saying she is taking the pill and then she gets pregnant. That's a relantionship with issues right there. Mainly lack of comunication and trust. I sugest separating or therapy because that isn't a good relantionship. Now for another example of why this is wrong and indicates relationship issues: the couple does have the talk. But the woman still wants a child and does the same as the woman before and also gets pregnant. This one also shows a lack of comunication and trust. But it's worse than the previous example because she knows what her partner wants but goes against it anyway to fulfill her own wishes. Excuse me? How can this two examples be handwaved?! This is wrong in so many levels! When I think about a woman tricking her partner into having a child this comes to my mind and this is immoral to the core! No amount of hormones or biological ticking clock can make this good! Edited August 6, 2015 by Yari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borz Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Isn't that illegal ? In some country I mean. Not in the US, or the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Glad to see I'm not in the minority (at least in regards to people most likely under 30 and happen to be interested in a turn based strategy series). I was honestly shocked to hear her saying such things because overall I wouldn't consider her a sexist person. She's 56 though so I wonder if it's a case of a generation divide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I think the question is worded badly - condoms aren't only used to prevent pregnancy. Your mother's answer is weird. She might be alluding to the joke that I once heard that went "if men had to give birth to children, humanity would be doomed", but the rest of it doesn't match up. Lying about being "on the pill" is a conscious choice, not one that my hormones would make for me. It also shows a distinct lack of consideration for the man's take of the situation. . .and that is most definitely not controlled by my biological clock! This is coming from a woman who's not exactly young, either~! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ask your mom if it would be okay if a man lies to his wife about having a vasectomy and gets her pregnant cause he wants kids and she doesn't. "she'll be fine after the baby is born." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ask your mom if it would be okay if a man lies to his wife about having a vasectomy and gets her pregnant cause he wants kids and she doesn't. "she'll be fine after the baby is born." I see your sentiment, but then she'll argue that the woman has to carry the baby, and pregnancy's usually uncomfortable, at best. Would love to see a good counter to Mom's argument, but I don't think this is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 ask your mom if it would be okay if a man lies to his wife about having a vasectomy and gets her pregnant cause he wants kids and she doesn't. "she'll be fine after the baby is born." Ha. That's a good one. But I don't think I will. I don't want to start it up again. It actually happened over a week ago. I just randomly decided to see what the internet thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) ask your mom if it would be okay if a man lies to his wife about having a vasectomy and gets her pregnant cause he wants kids and she doesn't. there are plenty of people who think that it's perfectly fine to force a woman to have a child when she doesn't want to. some of them are elected members of government! I see your sentiment, but then she'll argue that the woman has to carry the baby, and pregnancy's usually uncomfortable, at best.Would love to see a good counter to Mom's argument, but I don't think this is it. no, it's a great counter. the man has to help take care of the child, which is usually uncomfortable, at best. women have to bear greater burden of child rearing as a result of biology, but don't let's pretend that saddling a man with care of an unwanted child is less significant. Edited August 6, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borz Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 no, it's a great counter. the man has to help take care of the child, which is usually uncomfortable, at best. women have to bear greater burden of child rearing as a result of biology, but don't let's pretend that saddling a man with care of an unwanted child is less significant. I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deviddo Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. I think he's trying to say that in this situation, the man would be taking care of the child since he's the one who wanted it. Therefore it'd be harder on the man, not the woman. I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 that men have to pay a lesser cost in the event of an unwanted pregnancy (since he doesn't have to carry the fetus) neither invalidates phoenix wright's analogy nor does it one bit make the act of deceit less immoral. raising a child still entails substantial cost even if the man doesn't have to push the baby through his pelvis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I see your sentiment, but then she'll argue that the woman has to carry the baby, and pregnancy's usually uncomfortable, at best. Would love to see a good counter to Mom's argument, but I don't think this is it. "oh well, you know, if you leave reproduction up to the woman we'd all be extinct!" his mom is being incredibly silly (and sexist). just say the same words back to her but with the roles flipped and see if she still agrees. if she doesn't, then she should get the hint that she's wrong. I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. remove the "let's" and the sentence should be clear. he's saying that though the painful responsibility of child birth is on the woman due to biology, the task of actually raising that child, especially if one didn't want the child in the first place and was lied to, isn't a burden that should be ignored. taking care of kids isn't easy. I think he's trying to say that in this situation, the man would be taking care of the child since he's the one who wanted it. Therefore it'd be harder on the man, not the woman. I could be wrong. not that it's "harder," just that it's a similarly significant hardship. you know, especially since the husband was lied to in the first place in this hypothetical. Edited August 6, 2015 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borz Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 that men have to pay a lesser cost in the event of an unwanted pregnancy (since he doesn't have to carry the fetus) neither invalidates phoenix wright's analogy nor does it one bit make the act of deceit less immoral. raising a child still entails substantial cost even if the man doesn't have to push the baby through his pelvis. I see. Thank you. I was confused on whether you were being sarcastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. I'm having a hard time trying to understand how it is relevant whether it is a man or a woman being tricked. It is definitely immoral in any case. Tricking people into something they don't consent about is immoral and, in certain circunstances (probably not this one, in many countries), a crime. that men have to pay a lesser cost in the event of an unwanted pregnancy (since he doesn't have to carry the fetus) neither invalidates phoenix wright's analogy nor does it one bit make the act of deceit less immoral. raising a child still entails substantial cost even if the man doesn't have to push the baby through his pelvis. Okay, it's cleared now. I agree. Edited August 6, 2015 by Rapier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenh Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) Deceitful, yes, thus immoral. Huge hypothetical if to suggest: what if the woman wanted a child and already had a partner/soulmate they couldn't have a biological child with, and was using a new 'other' only as a means of getting the biological child they wanted? What if this other never knew and never had contact with the woman again? Edited August 6, 2015 by Lenh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 why be so shady about it? is she having sex with this other? does the so know about it? if the answer is "no" to the latter question, then it's definitely immoral. i definitely wouldn't be okay with being the "other" in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yari Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Deceitful, yes, thus immoral. Huge hypothetical if to suggest: what if the woman wanted a child and already had a partner/soulmate they couldn't have a biological child with, and was using a new 'other' only as a means of getting the biological child they wanted? What if this other never knew and never had contact with the woman again? That's called sperm donation. It's perfectly legal, perfectly moral and it's the perfect way a couple can have a biological child when the man is infertile without the woman cheating/having sex with another male. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 that's not sperm donation. in the case of sperm donation, the male understands that he is donating sperm and (usually) explicitly forfeits the right to raise his biological child. the hypothetical case here is if the male is completely unaware that he is donating sperm and therefore has no opportunity to forfeit the right to raise his biological child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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