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Do you hate Avatar character(s)? If so, why?

Do you hate Avatar Character(s)?  

209 members have voted

  1. 1. If Yes, Why?

    • Yes
      47
    • No
      99
    • Indifferent
      63


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For me, Mark is another kind of extreme because they almost doesn't exist. Sometimes I didn't even realize that the characters were talking to me lol.

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I don't mind well written avatars, but in Kamui's case I voted yes. I can't stand avatars that get worshiped by the other characters all the time and get their hand held/or are given a pass when they make a mistake. I heard that Kris is pretty bad and I wasn't a big fan of Robin esp later on.

Edited by Frelia

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I'd prefer a choice of characters or choice of classes for characters over an Avatar character who isn't silent--FE7/8 were great with that and the different portions of RD were fine too. Japanese FE:A wasn't too bad with its avatar character, but I'm not really sure I'd even consider FE:F to be an avatar character or at the very least it barely fits the mold. Kris never really bothered me either.

The issues are more NA Robin and FE:F's avatar characters rather than the concept in general--it doesn't work if you don't have much say in terms of the character's personality or anything. Growlanser handles avatar characters the best since that's kind of its entire thing, though you don't decide the appearance. In FE, the concept of "avatar character" only works insofar as you deciding the appearance so it's completely the opposite. If it had a Growlanser system where you could select from a list of options for every dialogue and have them unlock/change depending on previous choices it'd be cool. If it had people like or not like you based on what you did there it'd be cool. But instead it's just changing the name/face/gender and if that's all it's going to be I'd rather the character in question be a Kris than a Kamui--basically just another soldier or portion of the army.

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L-Lilith dies?! AND YOU CAN'T PREVENT IT?! NOOOOO. HOW COULD THEY!? D: That's the most heartbreaking thing I've heard about this entire game! Why would you kill off the cutest creature FE has ever seen?! Oh my god my heart has just sank. This is what I get for reading spoilers...

The real tragedy is that the death itself isn't too sad. It's just like... boom... dead... gone... never really mentioned again. Though do not fear, Lilith comes back... as Ghost-Fish-Dragon. So it's kind of a moot point?

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The real tragedy is that the death itself isn't too sad. It's just like... boom... dead... gone... never really mentioned again. Though do not fear, Lilith comes back... as Ghost-Fish-Dragon. So it's kind of a moot point?

So it's literally just a "dog's death"? oh my god, that's the worst kind... why would they ever do that holy shit. ;~;

I'm willing to bet Lilith will tear me up more than anybody else in the cast, knowing me...

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The real tragedy is that the death itself isn't too sad. It's just like... boom... dead... gone... never really mentioned again. Though do not fear, Lilith comes back... as Ghost-Fish-Dragon. So it's kind of a moot point?

She also comes back in Kamui's dream before the final battle.

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When you have an avatar character, the writer is restricted from having that character act in ways that the player character may not relate to, i.e. making questionable decisions, learning from any mistakes, it's essentially anti-character development. If you have an avatar character with a non-bland non-mary sue personality, you risk the player not relating to the character. This is why most games with creatable characters have the main lead rarely ever speak or have a personality of their own and their only impact on the story is the actions they make, and this a rule most games should follow because as soon as they start talking, we get mary sue personalities (unless the game has plenty of dialogue trees). Fire Emblem doesn't get this, and we get boring characters like Robin as a result. Old Fire Emblem characters may have been bland, but at least they were allowed to develop and have at least some aspects of personality.

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I don't dislike the notion of having an avatar, in fact, that was one of the aspects that drew me into playing Awakening and discovering Fire Emblem. However, I felt like Kamui was a bit weak on the personality side and that kind of annoyed me. On the other hand I felt that Robin was well constructed.

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I'm one of the most vocal people whining about Kamui, so let me just get this straight. I do not hate avatar characters on principle. I like them when they're implemented well or the story works better with avatar characters. The Etrian Odyssey series did it well. The Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles games did well when they used avatar characters. Even FE7's tactician Mark was all right.

What I do hate is how IS has been implementing avatars lately. I've never played FE12, but from what I heard Kris was shoved into a game where they did not belong and was made out to be the "real" hero, therefore stealing Marth's story. Robin was not as bad because they weren't inserted into an existing story made without them, but still was pushing the line. Kamui is just unacceptable.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that I feel FE is one of those games that work better without an avatar. And yeah, please stop making other characters worship me I'm really fucking shy and awkward IRL and it's going to make me more suspicious of you than feel complimented.

Edited by Sunwoo

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I prefer the ensemble, not-as-customizable cast of older games. You want a mage character? Pick which unit to bring onto the map.

(if you're avoiding spoilers, don't click the links- they're to cutscenes from the game!)

Having cutscenes where there's literally a guy with a big hat blocking the main character's face kinda kills the customization feature for me. Fun to play around with in the creator- but personally I think it hurts the game since they aren't willing to go 100% with it. I'd much prefer seeing a set, well-rendered face. Also the forced first-person perspective in cutscenes in a largely third-person point of view game I find redundant. It gets outright insulting when it forces the player/character's view into voyeuristic slow-pan body shots (made to creep, thanks a lot IS).

As far as avatar-characters in games go, personally I've never ever played them as "myself". It's always a character (part of the reason I enjoy role playing games) and as such the more blank slate for self-insert they are the blander and more boring I find them. A big problem with Robin and Kamui is their characters stay largely static- bad consequences for their actions aren't given weight or at least are brushed by quickly if brought up at all, in both narrative and by other characters, and as a result they don't really appear to grown or change or even retain a reaction. Most annoying is the pandering to players cause it really narrows the possibly character relationships down when the writers are all "Don't forget, they can S Rank!" with all the cast, instead of getting variety or a complete lack of connection into the support pool.

I agree with Loki Laufeyson in that Fates suffers from Kamui-centrism. There are characters largely defined by their love for Kamui- all other facets to their personality come second, and that's a shame. Also I have not been impressed with the villains in FE13 and FE14- it's disappointing with how both have taken subplots from Jugdral and failed to match the complexities of the antagonists in that game.

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I'd have to say I'm indifferent about it. Like I was excited when I first saw that you were going to be able to do that when Awakening was coming out and that was one of the reasons I loved the game. The new avatar looks pretty cool too. But I sort of feel it takes a way a bit from the storyline in a way, its hard to explain what I mean. But I kind of hope that in the next game after Fates there isn't one just because I want the main character to be already designed and in the short films in the games.

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Customize-able characters on principal, just seem to be lower quality than actual characters. There's also the fact that they are designed to optimized based on the player's preferences. I'd rather be given set characters and make do with what I'm given. I also dislike how I can't even bench Kamui like I did with Robin.

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I prefer the ensemble, not-as-customizable cast of older games. You want a mage character? Pick which unit to bring onto the map.

(if you're avoiding spoilers, don't click the links- they're to cutscenes from the game!)

Having cutscenes where there's literally a guy with a big hat blocking the main character's face kinda kills the customization feature for me. Fun to play around with in the creator- but personally I think it hurts the game since they aren't willing to go 100% with it. I'd much prefer seeing a set, well-rendered face. Also the forced first-person perspective in cutscenes in a largely third-person point of view game I find redundant. It gets outright insulting when it forces the player/character's view into voyeuristic slow-pan body shots (made to creep, thanks a lot IS).

As far as avatar-characters in games go, personally I've never ever played them as "myself". It's always a character (part of the reason I enjoy role playing games) and as such the more blank slate for self-insert they are the blander and more boring I find them. A big problem with Robin and Kamui is their characters stay largely static- bad consequences for their actions aren't given weight or at least are brushed by quickly if brought up at all, in both narrative and by other characters, and as a result they don't really appear to grown or change or even retain a reaction. Most annoying is the pandering to players cause it really narrows the possibly character relationships down when the writers are all "Don't forget, they can S Rank!" with all the cast, instead of getting variety or a complete lack of connection into the support pool.

I agree with Loki Laufeyson in that Fates suffers from Kamui-centrism. There are characters largely defined by their love for Kamui- all other facets to their personality come second, and that's a shame. Also I have not been impressed with the villains in FE13 and FE14- it's disappointing with how both have taken subplots from Jugdral and failed to match the complexities of the antagonists in that game.

Those are the issues that I have with Robin and Kamui too. FE14 looks like it has a really bad case of Kamui-centrism and it's really noticeable esp with the characters who are mainly defined by their love for Kamui. If we do get an avatar in the next FE I hope we don't have an avatar like Kris, Kamui, or Robin again. I also agree that the villains in FE13 and FE14 are really disappointing and are a bunch of mustache twirlers. I really hope it's not a running theme.

Along with that I really hate that we never see Kamui's face in those cutscenes. What is the point of having customization when you can't see them in cutscenes?

Edited by Frelia

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A problem with having an Avatar character whose choices shift the direction of the narrative for a series like FE is that to do it properly with today's technology would require a noticeably different design philosophy than what IS apparently has.

I'll use Der Langrisser for this. The game has 4 Paths with one ultimate goal (end the bloody era of the continent) and reuses maps between them. There is no Golden Ending that lets you recruit most (if not all) of the playable cast (not even the Independent Path is one since Erwin's army still has to crush all enemies and he loses Liana). You aren't railroaded into fighting a single faction or key figure. The game is more iffy than Fates on the methods and aims of the factions along with Erwin himself. And lastly, Der Langrisser is not afraid to have sympathetic characters curse Erwin's name without getting demonized or apologizing or whatever.

Fates on the other-hand,

has Kamui railroaded into opposing Fake Garon (who's a mustache-twirling pawn of Hydra) and his lackeys no matter what Path he's in. The conflict between Hoshido and Nohr is not only much more lopsided than that of Kalxath Versus Rayguard, but the there's a dragon out to blow up mankind who the two kingdoms friend-up against. The game repeatedly goes out of its way to prevent Kamui from not being vilified for his actions.

Edited by Alazen

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Meh, I'm indifferent to Avatars. I'm not exactly a fan of Kris or Robin, but Kamui was ok (not great), and at least some of their decisions had consequences/had somebody to tell them when they were being stupid. Could lose the player worshipping though.

Edited by Mighty Kamina

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They feel much less like actual characters. Like even Roy is less cardboard than Kris/Robin/Kamui, and thats saying quite alot.

Kris, for example took many of Jeigan and Marths lines and stuff and added in a useless subplot.

Robin took the spotlight away from Chrom when we needed much much better characterization of Chrom which basically ended up with him looking like an even more Reckless Sigurd but who doesn't get punished for being reckless, and being constantly praised for everything when tacticians in the past FE's never got that universal praise.

Kamui I cannot comment on currently, but from how wishywashy he/she seem to be and just the heaps of unearned praise and the amount of character development they take from other characters just so they can praise him/her is a bit disgusting.

Marth is the uncertain warrior prince, dedicated to saving his sister and reclaiming his land, he is a bit of a goody good, but also cannot forgive Gra, he even mentions it himself. He has doubts, he feels human.

Alm, is just a badass not much characterization there, but the player can infer for him and Cecilia

Sigurd, Brash, Reckless, Noble. Makes mistake after mistake by simply doing what he feels is right, eventually catches up with him

Celice, Noble, honest, more calm then his Father

Leif, a rebel with a cause, who has to go through absolute hell and makes tactical error after tactical error, costing people their lives. But he improves and perseveres.

Roy, A romantic thinker and tactical prodigy not much of a fighter, Young Commander of an army which he must get together after the tragic passing of its former leader.

Eliwood, a noble, just, tries to sort things out with reason, yet is prone to make illogical emotional choices.

Hector, a brash and loyal friend, always aims to get things done, but can be quick in his choices. Learns to become more of a leader as the game goes on

Lyn, Wildwoman of the plains born into royalty that she didn't know, has to constantly deal with politics and stuff she'd rather not

Eirika, naive but just Princess, she grows into a more queenly figure

Ephraim, warrior tactician with a daring attitude but his reckless behavior does have a few consequences

Ike, a mercenary who grows from a young lad to a leader in a span of a brutal year of having to take the reigns from his father, often struggles with some early recklessness which nearly gets people killed and his blunt attitude with nobles

Micaiah, a rebel who has to struggle with her dual bloodline and the very people she loves cursing people such as her, who struggles to do what she feels is right.

All of these characters are much better then any Avatar we've ever gotten.

^ This.

If you can't already tell by my username, Leif is my favorite FE lord. Despite the technological limitations of the SNES, Leif's struggle was not only seen through the narrative, but also the gameplay. Thracia 776 is riddled with heaps of escape maps where you're fleeing from powerful enemies. You see how hard Leif had to fight to reclaim his homeland and stop fleeing from the Empire. It certainly wasn't a walk in the part for Leif as it was for Robin and Chrom.

Back on topic. I am indifferent, but slightly leaning towards not being ok with self-inserts. There are positive aspects to an avatar for sure, mostly personal reasons for me; I love customizing characters and FINALLY being able to make a canonically gay protagonist *swoons*. However, from the issues with Awakening's storyline due to Robin, I can only infer that Fates suffers from the same narrative problems. I'd rather see another Lord, like Leif, have the spotlight and have us witness his/her struggles through the absolute hell that is war than have self-insert being praised left and right.

I hope that future avatars would fulfill more of Mark's role in FE7, a tactician working behind the scenes and not on the battlefield. Mark, though, was a bit awkward at certain points in the story.

Edited by Leif

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Avatars' advantages is the customization. I love spending time messing with the options to make a characters who's actually nice to look at.

But their big default is their personalities, playing as a bland Mary Sue who you cannot identify to isn't my definition of fun. But the problem could be easily solved with some cleverly placed dialogue choice option and/or a personality system

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Well....honestly I'm not sure what to say. Maybe when I eventually read everything through in english, but even then, it might not help that much........

My two cents is that, I'm not sure if it would be technologically possible, to create dialogue trees to the point that it would represent players actions

(Without things like bad ends for wrong choices, since those basically "force" you to choose other options)

They would have to write huge and huge amounts of story (and I, personally, felt that the amount we had right now is...little) and it would just be too much I guess

So I guess, in a sense, they just wanted to "try out new (or not so new) things", and "cash grab". So to speak....but every Fire Emblem (except maaaaybe the GBA games, and FE11, I think) had new stuff, so I'm not sure.

I personally speaking don't have a problem....but I am extremely lenient on some things...and extremely harsh on others, so my opinions suck, haha

TL;DR: The developers were lazy

It doesn't necessarily mean that the game is bad, "but it could have been better".....is something you could say about pretty much everything

Sigh

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I quite like having an Avatar. I don't see it being any different from having a Lord--even in a game like Persona where every time the protagonist talks it is a dialogue option, I am never going to self-insert myself into the main character's place, mostly because there's never a "Where did you get your dress?" option--but I actually get to decide what the protagonist I spend the next forty hours staring at looks like and make them look cool, or weird, or very unlike a regular main character. The way I change the Avatar's appearance can put a subtly different spin on their dialogue and make them feel a little bit different from the last time I played the game. And I love being able to customize my main character's class and skills so I can make them a mage like I always want them to be.

TL;DR: I like having an Avatar because I like being able to choose who the main character is.

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I wish I could choose who the main character is. Instead, I'm just picking the design of a predetermined sue.

Edited by Radiant head

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I'll chime in with others and say that I don't have a problem with Avatars in principle but their execution in Fire Emblem has been poor. An avatar could be well done if their personality and story was better written. I don't want my importance inflated or people kissing my boots. Let me be a person who tries hard, makes mistakes and isn't universally liked.

I do like having a customized unit so this would be my recommendation for a better implementation. Make the avatar a gender and appearance customizable but make them a more minor character, maybe of slightly higher importance than your usual recruits. Rather than have a single, defined personality, allow us to choose one personality/background from a list, with each personality having its own set of supports for a limited number of the cast.This will give you a good degree of options without derailing the plot or requiring a lot of content to change depending on your choices.

The other option would be to to let the avatar be the main character and give the player a lot of significant choices in the game. This would be harder to accommodate, I'm all for the former option.

I Having cutscenes where there's literally a guy with a big hat blocking the main character's face kinda kills the customization feature for me. Fun to play around with in the creator- but personally I think it hurts the game since they aren't willing to go 100% with it. I'd much prefer seeing a set, well-rendered face. Also the forced first-person perspective in cutscenes in a largely third-person point of view game I find redundant. It gets outright insulting when it forces the player/character's view into voyeuristic slow-pan body shots (made to creep, thanks a lot IS).

Goodness me, I thought no one would mention this! It really takes me out of scenes when they can't show me the protagonist's face. This is the main character, and I'm not even allowed to see them? Take the customization out, if that's the best they can do.

I don't hate avatars, but I do strongly dislike how IS thinks the player wants the plot and all the other characters to be so focused on the avatar.

In this game, I would've rather had Marx and Ryouma be the Lords of their respective routes with us seeing the story unfold from Kamui's perspective after he picks whichever side. It certainly would make more sense to me. Why do people follow him in Nohr or Hoshido when they could've followed Marx or Ryouma?

Anyway, I prefer to have a "normal" Lord. I liked Robin, but Kamui just sounds like he's an idiot.

This is what they should have done. Kamui is an interesting character for his unique upbringing and the personal dilemma he has to go through, but outside of some shoehorned "u da chosen 1" nonsense, he's not really important to the greater scheme of things. And that's okay! You don't need to be THE guy in charge to contribute to the story (and allow us to witness it as well).

What's so different about the Avatar being the center of the plot, than lets say Ike being the center of the plot? It seems like very shallow nitpicking.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the main character being an Avatar. Robin, to me, seems like a co-protagonist rather than a spotlight stealer. What I do have a problem with is characters and the story being focused on you for no reason.. Robin was fine, Kamui was terrible.

Back on the Avatar debate... I think that if IS wants to have bullshit self-insert Avatars, then they need to go full-on Shin Megami Tensei level Avatars; as in, you decide all of their choices.

Wouldn't it be cool in they made a Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem cross over?

As if that would happen!

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Well, like some others have said, the latest Avatars aren't really self-inserts. They are pre determined characters we can control on an aesthetic level. I don't see much problem with them.

On the subject of importance, I think Robin is a good stopping point, Kamui is going too far. I gotta dispute with those that say Awakening was all over Robin's junk, or that s/he was a spotlight stealer. Robin rarely got more than "good plan" from the team, and Chrom was undoubtedly the leader and protagonist of the game. Sure, Robin gets a bit of importance toward the end, but you can still bench them in every battle, including the last one, and they don't get nearly as much screen time and character interaction in the story than Chrom does.

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I always got the impression August resented this job. He was only there because Levin ordered him to help Leif.

Hate is probably too strong, but he certainly wasn't afraid to put Leif down, which wouldn't be the case if Leif was a self-insert.

No, he really did not. For example, this is what he said after they survived the siege of Lenster, which only happened because of Leaf's biggest screw up.

Leaf: “I still have a long way to go. I’m ashamed of myself…”

August: “Nonsense, you have grown much this past year. You will become like Lord Celice in another year or so.

Criticism can hurt. And people tend to get angry at the person who hurt them. Because of this, it's the trait of a good friend to be willing to speak openly to you. They care so much about your wellbeing that they are willing to risk your ire in order to help you. It's so much easier to stay one someone's good side by only saying positive things about someone, to say nothing that might as much as merely imply that that person may have something to learn.

On that note, here is a part of the final exchange between the two.

August: “Well, well… Perhaps now is the time to tell you. I offered to become your advisor because I was ordered to do so by…one of my superiors. Frankly, at first I didn’t think we would be able to liberate Northern Thracia. However, after seeing you keep trying and never giving up…I began to feel hope, and I found myself believing in you. My words in the past may have been insulting… Forgive me, Lord Leaf.”

Leaf: “August… Your words indeed came down heavily on me, but more important to me were the lessons that were in them. You taught me to truly understand the suffering and sorrow of the people. August, I want to ask you to stay by my side. I need you, August…”

August: “Yes… As you wish, Lord Leaf…”

Leaf was very ignorant, as to be expected from a spoiled 15 old kid. But he was also very willing to listen to August's words, so August has little reason to hate him.

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Goodness me, I thought no one would mention this! It really takes me out of scenes when they can't show me the protagonist's face. This is the main character, and I'm not even allowed to see them? Take the customization out, if that's the best they can do.

Exactly. Like I said earlier the customization feels like a waste of time when you can't see the avatar's face in cutscenes. If this is the best IntSys can do they might as well take out the customization and have a set face for the avatar. I love the customization, but that is just bad.

Edited by Frelia

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