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14 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

That's lame.

Cool people like me use Poison+.

Poison sucks on anything not named Kagero, specially om Felicia because her atk sucks. Besides debuffs won't apply to armored, flier or cavalry units which sucks even more.

= EDIT =

Actually the only other unit that might benefit from Poison Dagger+ would be Frederick, but still ~

Edited by Quintessence

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4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Hmm. Okay, that should work well enough. I grinded a lot to get Stahl that Ward Cav, but he still has an upgrade to go through, so that's not a big deal. And I know, it's a good suggestion, don't worry. :)

I do love that all of them sans Camus are +Def though. XD It means they're harder to kill for physical teams! lol

I think it's fine to have flexible C slots. I feel like Ward is more useful against GHBs and soecial maps when you know who the enemies are and you just need a little more survivability in chokepoints for example. :)

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Just now, mcsilas said:

I think it's fine to have flexible C slots. I feel like Ward is more useful against GHBs and soecial maps when you know who the enemies are and you just need a little more survivability in chokepoints for example. :)

Yeah, true. Freddy will be swapping between Hone Cav and Fortify Def 3 many times, I reckon, so yeah. :P

 

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About those sacred coins... What if they're used to buy skills for units? Instead of going through inheriting them, you can buy certain ones instead. I can't imagine a lot of them being cheap though.

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15 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

Poison sucks on anything not named Kagero, specially om Felicia because her atk sucks. Besides debuffs won't apply to armored, flier or cavalry units which sucks even more.

= EDIT =

Actually the only other unit that might benefit from Poison Dagger+ would be Frederick, but still ~

Frederick is slow as balls and doesn't actually exist anymore (unless you actually got him). Saizo uses it pretty well, too, and probably even more when you consider arguably the best stats among them (especially crazy Def)

Edited by Soul~!

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21 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

Poison sucks on anything not named Kagero, specially om Felicia because her atk sucks. Besides debuffs won't apply to armored, flier or cavalry units which sucks even more.

= EDIT =

Actually the only other unit that might benefit from Poison Dagger+ would be Frederick, but still ~

I thought Gaius was supposed to be a solid runner for Poison Dagger

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2 minutes ago, r_n said:

I thought Gaius was supposed to be a solid runner for Poison Dagger

Why are people overlooking +Spd Saizo.

You know, the only dude that has actual Def.

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8 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Frederick is slow as balls and doesn't actually exist anymore (unless you actually got him). Saizo uses it pretty well, too, and probably even more when you consider arguably the best stats among them (especially crazy Def)

Had been thinking of a Saizo build utilizing heavy defenses and Close Counter. Since Smoke Dagger activates on defensive rounds as well, he'd be able to hit or block a group of physical units and work them down. His garbage Res complicates things though.

Similarly, I have thought about giving Leon or Virion a Clarisse Bow and Close Counter to pull off a similar strategy (though the bow won't activate without attacking first).

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8 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Why are people overlooking +Spd Saizo.

You know, the only dude that has actual Def.

Presumably because Def isn't a highly sought-after stat on offensive Poison Dagger units?

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14 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, true. Freddy will be swapping between Hone Cav and Fortify Def 3 many times, I reckon, so yeah. :P

 

Hence the original suggestion of Fortify Cav as a flexible alternate option if you have the SP, in case you want Camus to take a better hit during a GHB or something. Just different options :)

 

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8 minutes ago, Johann said:

Had been thinking of a Saizo build utilizing heavy defenses and Close Counter. Since Smoke Dagger activates on defensive rounds as well, he'd be able to hit or block a group of physical units and work them down. His garbage Res complicates things though.

Similarly, I have thought about giving Leon or Virion a Clarisse Bow and Close Counter to pull off a similar strategy (though the bow won't activate without attacking first).

I'm kind of retired on "debuffers". Seems like a boring task. Maybe it's just mental blocked I attuned myself to, since I'm more into straightforward units. I'm not a huge fan of Distant Counter unless you happen to have pretty good offense or "counterkill" potential.

You're still free to talk me out of it.

3 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Presumably because Def isn't a highly sought-after stat on offensive Poison Dagger units?

Archers exist too, you know. Enemy archers. Whether it'd be Trials or Arena, it's not just mages you're facing. People seem to conveniently block that part out.

Regardless, he can also work with Desperation. +Spd Fury Saizo has 40 AS and 1-shots Yuria.

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Just now, Soul~! said:

Archers exist too, you know. Enemy archers. Whether it'd be Trials or Arena, it's not just mages you're facing. People seem to conveniently block that part out.

Regardless, he can also work with Desperation. +Spd Fury Saizo has 40 AS and 1-shots Yuria.

There does not exist any archer that can OHKO Kagero (or any of the common Poison Dagger glass cannons) on the counterattack on enemy phase, and after that initial counterattack you won't be receiving any more because of Desperation. The higher defense is entirely unnecessary when you should be getting hit anywhere from 0-1 times in a standard Arena match. 

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8 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

Hence the original suggestion of Fortify Cav as a flexible alternate option if you have the SP, in case you want Camus to take a better hit during a GHB or something. Just different options :)

True that, yeah.

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Just now, MaskedAmpharos said:

There does not exist any archer that can OHKO Kagero (or any of the common Poison Dagger glass cannons) on the counterattack on enemy phase, and after that initial counterattack you won't be receiving any more because of Desperation. The higher defense is entirely unnecessary when you should be getting hit anywhere from 0-1 times in a standard Arena match. 

I think PD Saizo has merit outside the arena. Kagero can absolutely die hard & fast to the inflated stats of the tower, GHBs and so forth. 

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7 hours ago, GuiltyLove said:

Is that why "Horcrux" and "Horse" both begin with the letter "H"...?

Probably.

7 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I'm a Redhead.  I don't have a soul to lose.

So you're just fulfilling your destiny at this point lmao

6 hours ago, Soul~! said:

I thought you were Soysoy.

Also, why am I on trial. I'm literally the only guy that doesn't have a waifu collection.

Because you're an easy target

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1 minute ago, r_n said:

I think PD Saizo has merit outside the arena. Kagero can absolutely die hard & fast to the inflated stats of the tower, GHBs and so forth. 

I agree. I did calcs on Close Counter Poison Dagger on Saizo and Gaius and they're the best users, although there were less units back then so not sure about now. Still the better users if you have Close Counter. 

That said, i have a +Spd Saizo (no PD though since no Kagero) but he is still pretty solid for non-arena use. Enemy Saizos always frustrate me with that Def.

@Johann i gave Clarrise's Bow to Jeorge and Rebecca for fun since they already have Seal Attack. Makes for a fun training support unit (same with Smoke Dagger Saizo)

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1 minute ago, mcsilas said:

I agree. I did calcs on Close Counter Poison Dagger on Saizo and Gaius and they're the best users, although there were less units back then so not sure about now. Still the better users if you have Close Counter. 

That said, i have a +Spd Saizo (no PD though since no Kagero) but he is still pretty solid for non-arena use. Enemy Saizos always frustrate me with that Def.

@Johann i gave Clarrise's Bow to Jeorge and Rebecca for fun since they already have Seal Attack. Makes for a fun training support unit (same with Smoke Dagger Saizo)

This got me to actually look up the dagger users and uhhhh, huh. Didn't realize we had so few. Jaffar's the only new permanent one and then there's Summer Frederick. Well it's more than any armor, I guess.

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36 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Frederick is slow as balls and doesn't actually exist anymore (unless you actually got him). Saizo uses it pretty well, too, and probably even more when you consider arguably the best stats among them (especially crazy Def)

Slow as balls with 31 spd and kagero has 32 spd? Saizo is quite good with 29 atk and 34 spd but +atk PD puts him at 37 atk which is terribly shitty for effective dmg. Fred hits 40 and Kagero hits 43 with +atk which taking eff bonus dmg puts them at 55/60/64. 55dmg on Saizo is nice but that still limits it to infantry units. Throw any cav/flier/knight and he will be dead meat because he will deal low dmg and will land zero debuffs.

Dagger units have the misery of facing raven TA builds as well.

29 minutes ago, r_n said:

I thought Gaius was supposed to be a solid runner for Poison Dagger

I like Rogue Dagger more, it is pretty annoying.

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2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Because you're an easy target

Waifu hoar.

11 minutes ago, r_n said:

I think PD Saizo has merit outside the arena. Kagero can absolutely die hard & fast to the inflated stats of the tower, GHBs and so forth. 

I always feel like legitimately suggesting Trials as an actual evaluation mode (to test the waters with characters better), but then I regret it because some things seem even more unbalanced, like units with ridiculous offense just being even better and the same for "counter-kill" units like Hector, Camus and Xander who are almost mandatory. The only thing I see so far is that healers are far far more mandatory.

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1 minute ago, r_n said:

This got me to actually look up the dagger users and uhhhh, huh. Didn't realize we had so few. Jaffar's the only new permanent one and then there's Summer Frederick. Well it's more than any armor, I guess.

Hence i was wishlisting for Yukimura a few pages ago for diversity. All dagger users so far are weak to Poison Daggers ironically

either as a 'cavalry' for more move or an armoured dagger with an armour-exclusive movement skill to 'replicate' the Mechanist's defense and more movement.

i doubt we will get a dagger flier though.

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3 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

Slow as balls with 31 spd and kagero has 32 spd? Saizo is quite good with 29 atk and 34 spd but +atk PD puts him at 37 atk which is terribly shitty for effective dmg. Fred hits 40 and Kagero hits 43 with +atk which taking eff bonus dmg puts them at 55/60/64. 55dmg on Saizo is nice but that still limits it to infantry units. Throw any cav/flier/knight and he will be dead meat because he will deal low dmg and will land zero debuffs.

31 Spd is really slow for a unit you'd expect to double. He'd have to run on +Spd and LD3 (which is being awfully generous) to only then start doubling a lot. 37 Atk isn't so low when you're only missing out on tankier infantry. And if you're willing to argue beyond that, then yeah, there's no point in anyone but Kagero beating out enemies that aren't infantry (which takes up literally every ounce of Atk she needs and even something like a Silver+ for that).

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1 minute ago, mcsilas said:

Hence i was wishlisting for Yukimura a few pages ago for diversity. All dagger users so far are weak to Poison Daggers ironically

either as a 'cavalry' for more move or an armoured dagger with an armour-exclusive movement skill to 'replicate' the Mechanist's defense and more movement.

i doubt we will get a dagger flier though.

Yukimura as cavalry would make a lot of sense. Sure he'd be weak to cavalry weapons, but they don't specify horses! We're in the clear!!

I think we could see a dagger flier eventually, through a seasonal unit. why not have Azura riding a pegasus throwing pumpkins at people, seasonal units dont have to make sense

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14 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

Hence i was wishlisting for Yukimura a few pages ago for diversity. All dagger users so far are weak to Poison Daggers ironically

either as a 'cavalry' for more move or an armoured dagger with an armour-exclusive movement skill to 'replicate' the Mechanist's defense and more movement.

i doubt we will get a dagger flier though.

 The chances are low unless it is a limited banner . It just that dagger users do not have the fire power currently in the game. Why debuff the enemy when you can outright kill them. The exception is  to soften enemies in the training tower.  There needs to the new weapons to address the issue. But then that are what bows are for. Quite the pickle.

Edited by Jingle Jangle

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2 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

I'm kind of retired on "debuffers". Seems like a boring task. Maybe it's just mental blocked I attuned myself to, since I'm more into straightforward units. I'm not a huge fan of Distant Counter unless you happen to have pretty good offense or "counterkill" potential.

You're still free to talk me out of it.

Well, look at this way: Some of the debuffers have the right stats for certain roles (Saizo and Felicia come to mind). I use Felicia all the time myself, where she's practically immune to magic on a defensive tile. Now, she's not always able to help out, but by giving her Seal Spd 3, she can neuter powerful units as long as they don't counter with physical damage (though I could give her Windsweep and still get the -Def/Res). She's also the perfect unit to use Atk Ploy. I plan on giving her better skills if I ever can pull the right units (Seashell+ would have been nice).

Close/Distant Counter, yeah, I agree for the most part, though I think there's a lot of unexplored territory for them (especially as we get new skills). I mean, defensively styled units tend to rely either on Vantage kills (Ryoma comes to mind) or Quick Riposte builds. Close Counter in particular is kinda worthless unless the unit has the defense to withstand melee hits and respond with something punishing, or just kick in Vantage to kill. A defense oriented Saizo with CC and Smoke Dagger+ could potentially handle a group of physical units, especially if he's on a defensive tile and/or has support. I don't think it would work as often in Arena as compared to say, Tempest or certain maps (particularly with reinforcements).

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2 minutes ago, r_n said:

Yukimura as cavalry would make a lot of sense. Sure he'd be weak to cavalry weapons, but they don't specify horses! We're in the clear!!

I think we could see a dagger flier eventually, through a seasonal unit. why not have Azura riding a pegasus throwing pumpkins at people, seasonal units dont have to make sense

Reminds me of when I reclassed Azura to a Falcon Knight in my first Birthright playthrough because I though she would be Olivia level frail/weak as a singer. It actually worked out for me surprisingly enough because of her Strength/Spead and staff utility with her personal skill providing an AOE healing effect to adjacent units. 

Maybe she'll throw candy since they seem more dagger like. 

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