What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Ottservia]

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, Yin is the passive element. It's pretty standard sexism. Women are the passive gebtle gender while men are strong active one. But even if the aesthetic if Nohr and Hoshido were swapped to actually match Yin and Yang, it still wouldn't be exploring the actual concept which, as I said, would have required and endlessly stable war with no aggressor at all. Conquest and Birthright would have straight up bad endings. Not, as they are now, ostensibly happy endings with some fridge logic as to what happens next that needed DLC to address.

Try telling that to Taiga but this isn’t the thread to talk about the themes and morifs of Toradora so I digress. Even so it’s not just fates that inverts it so does literally every other story I’ve seen use this symbolism. Why does Zekrom have such a masculine design if he’s supposed to be Yin?! Also if Yin is supposed to be more passive then why is the point of Phoenix wright(Ryuchi in Japanese) supposed to point out contradictions by only striking at the right statement? You know passively waiting for the right opportunity to strike! He’s supposed to be the dragon or yang. Shouldn’t he be more active and aggressive? Like I said I feel like there’s something missing here and I wish I knew what it was. Cause after doing some more research you’re right. Yin is supposed to be the passive one but that doesn’t explain why it’s inverted everytime I see it used in Japanese media.

Also technically speaking, you could consider the endings of Birthright and Conquest bad endings because not all the plot threads were resolved. Each one has a bitter sweet feel. Throw in the fact that Rev was always supposed to be a thing. The developers have confirmed that the game was to have three paths from the outset so it makes sense. I tend to view Fates’s route split much like Fate/Stay night. The two stories share a lot of similarities actually. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Try telling that to Taiga but this isn’t the thread to talk about the themes and morifs of Toradora so I digress. Even so it’s not just fates that inverts it so does literally every other story I’ve seen use this symbolism. Why does Zekrom have such a masculine design if he’s supposed to be Yin?! Also if Yin is supposed to be more passive then why is the point of Phoenix wright(Ryuchi in Japanese) supposed to point out contradictions by only striking at the right statement? You know passively waiting for the right opportunity to strike! He’s supposed to be the dragon or yang. Shouldn’t he be more active and aggressive? Like I said I feel like there’s something missing here and I wish I knew what it was. Cause after doing some more research you’re right. Yin is supposed to be the passive one but that doesn’t explain why it’s inverted everytime I see it used in Japanese media.

I'd say it's because a lot of the use of such themes is surface level and not actually delving into the philosophy. Japan is one of the least religious nations on the planet. The temples and shrines are everywhere, but it is style and aesthetic more than belief. I once asked a Shinto Priest why he became a priest and his answer was that he inherited the job from his father. We see it with how they use Christian aesthetic too, which anime has a strange fascination with, despite being one of the least Christinized nations out there too (and also basically never delving into the actual philosophy, it's typically just age inappropriate nuns with machetes).

Quote

Also technically speaking, you could consider the endings of Birthright and Conquest bad endings because not all the plot threads were resolved. Each one has a bitter sweet feel. Throw in the fact that Rev was always supposed to be a thing. The developers have confirmed that the game was to have three paths from the outset so it makes sense. I tend to view Fates’s route split much like Fate/Stay night. The two stories share a lot of similarities actually. 

The thing is that they're not bad endings though. As written and depicted they are good endings. It's retroactive reasoning upon discovering Anankos that only turns them into bad endings, not the actual tone of the writing itself. It's like saying Shadow Dragon has a bad ending because Mystery of the Emblem exists. It's true, but try telling that to the writing and happy music and end cards talking about how great everyone's lives are afterwards. They're standard happy endings. They shouldn't be, logically or thematically, but they are.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Jotari

[ping]

I know that Wikipedia isn't an ideal source to learn about philosophical concepts, but since neither are video games:

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Yin is the receptive and Yang the active principle, seen in all forms of change and difference such as the annual cycle (winter and summer), the landscape (north-facing shade and south-facing brightness), sexual coupling (female and male), the formation of both men and women as characters and sociopolitical history (disorder and order).

 

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Try telling that to Taiga but this isn’t the thread to talk about the themes and morifs of Toradora so I digress. Even so it’s not just fates that inverts it so does literally every other story I’ve seen use this symbolism. Why does Zekrom have such a masculine design if he’s supposed to be Yin?! Also if Yin is supposed to be more passive then why is the point of Phoenix wright(Ryuchi in Japanese) supposed to point out contradictions by only striking at the right statement? You know passively waiting for the right opportunity to strike! He’s supposed to be the dragon or yang. Shouldn’t he be more active and aggressive? Like I said I feel like there’s something missing here and I wish I knew what it was. Cause after doing some more research you’re right. Yin is supposed to be the passive one but that doesn’t explain why it’s inverted everytime I see it used in Japanese media.

With the exception of Toradora (where I think its an extension of the very blatant theme about people not being who they appear on the surface) I am guessing they are trying to capture the concept that at Yin/Yang's height it is inevitably transitioning to its opposite; hence why the symbol most westerners associate with Yin-Yang has a dot of Yin in the center of Yang, and dot of Yang in the center of Yin. Like @Jotari said, its hard not to see a lot of these as attempts at rather shallow shorthand, like when western media adds some Christ imagery to a character to show they are the good guy whose suffering is unwarranted, without really trying to explore any real philosophical meaning or nuance about Christianity or the Christ story.

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

With the exception of Toradora (where I think its an extension of the very blatant theme about people not being who they appear on the surface) I am guessing they are trying to capture the concept that at Yin/Yang's height it is inevitably transitioning to its opposite; hence why the symbol most westerners associate with Yin-Yang has a dot of Yin in the center of Yang, and dot of Yang in the center of Yin. Like @Jotari said, its hard not to see a lot of these as attempts at rather shallow shorthand, like when western media adds some Christ imagery to a character to show they are the good guy whose suffering is unwarranted, without really trying to explore any real philosophical meaning or nuance about Christianity or the Christ story.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'd say it's because a lot of the use of such themes is surface level and not actually delving into the philosophy. Japan is one of the least religious nations on the planet. The temples and shrines are everywhere, but it is style and aesthetic more than belief. I once asked a Shinto Priest why he became a priest and his answer was that he inherited the job from his father. We see it with how they use Christian aesthetic too, which anime has a strange fascination with, despite being one of the least Christinized nations out there too (and also basically never delving into the actual philosophy, it's typically just age inappropriate nuns with machetes).

Personally I’d like to give writers a lot more credit than that. I doubt it’s simply surface level window dressing. I mean in one piece the tiger and dragon symbolism is meant to convey how the lowly tiger is only able to beat the mighty dragon once it has stagnated and grown passive. I mean literally the guy is named fisher tiger who frees slaves from the celestial dragons. It’s pretty obvious what Oda is trying to for here. And even in Toradora its used to show how Taiga and Ryuji complete one another. In true daoist fashion they have pieces of the other within themselves and can’t exist without each other. Like I said I don’t like to believe these writers are stupid that’s just disrespectful. Hell, Naruto and Sasuke can be equated through Yin and Yang and the doist symbolism in there runs pretty deep because it’s outright stated numerous times how Naruto and Sasuke’s roles could have easily been reversed had circumstances been only slightly different. One has the potential to become the other. While Sasuke has the potential to see light, Naruto has a nest of darkness sleeping inside of him. And I highly doubt it’s simply Kishimoto is just using as surface level window dressing. Even in Naruto, Sasuke is considered the more active and relentless one at least by the end of the series what with his whole revolution plan but I digress.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ottservia

[Etrurian emperor]

42 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Like I said I don’t like to believe these writers are stupid that’s just disrespectful 

Not stupid but motivated by the wrong incentives. Or ruthlessly hounded by soulless executives dictating strict deadline and crunch.  

Writers are usually very open about pressure from forces above them preventing them from making scenes as good as they wanted them to have been. And in some cases bad decisions aren't stupid at all but really clever if they considered things like fanservice or rushing to the end more important than quality. I don't find the deeprealm for instance a case of the writers being stupid but the writers knowing what they(or their higher ups) wanted and that breaking Fateslandia was an acceptable cost of giving themselves (or their higher ups) what they wanted. Lilith's death is also an example. Its nonsensical that we're expected to feel anything when a gameplay mechanic dies, but it makes more sense if you see it as a case of the writers wanting a death scene to raise the stakes, make Corrin cry and get a tearjerker moment while also being unwilling to kill off a playable character the player might miss in gameplay, or an important character the player might miss in cutscenes. In a very cynical sense no one is being stupid, they just uh....''pragmatically'' use their cast to get what they want. Same goes with only bare bones Corrinsexuals dying in the golden route. Because they want to raise the stakes, but don't want to risk soiling your golden route by killing characters you or Corrin cares about. Its cowardly. But its not stupid. 

From other series an example would be the Star Wars sequels. I don't think Abrams was stupid, I think he was making the soulless product that his soulless pay masters demanded that he'd make.  Even D&D might not have been stupid but instead engaged in a mad rush to get out, and found burning everything down an acceptable cost of a fast transition to Netflix. 

Its not a case being stupid. When writers screw up they probably noticed it somewhere down the line, and in cases when these failures were mandated from above it probably bothers them to some degree. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Ottservia]

48 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Not stupid but motivated by the wrong incentives. Or ruthlessly hounded by soulless executives dictating strict deadline and crunch.  

Writers are usually very open about pressure from forces above them preventing them from making scenes as good as they wanted them to have been. And in some cases bad decisions aren't stupid at all but really clever if they considered things like fanservice or rushing to the end more important than quality. I don't find the deeprealm for instance a case of the writers being stupid but the writers knowing what they(or their higher ups) wanted and that breaking Fateslandia was an acceptable cost of giving themselves (or their higher ups) what they wanted. Lilith's death is also an example. Its nonsensical that we're expected to feel anything when a gameplay mechanic dies, but it makes more sense if you see it as a case of the writers wanting a death scene to raise the stakes, make Corrin cry and get a tearjerker moment while also being unwilling to kill off a playable character the player might miss in gameplay, or an important character the player might miss in cutscenes. In a very cynical sense no one is being stupid, they just uh....''pragmatically'' use their cast to get what they want. Same goes with only bare bones Corrinsexuals dying in the golden route. Because they want to raise the stakes, but don't want to risk soiling your golden route by killing characters you or Corrin cares about. Its cowardly. But its not stupid. 

From other series an example would be the Star Wars sequels. I don't think Abrams was stupid, I think he was making the soulless product that his soulless pay masters demanded that he'd make.  Even D&D might not have been stupid but instead engaged in a mad rush to get out, and found burning everything down an acceptable cost of a fast transition to Netflix. 

Its not a case being stupid. When writers screw up they probably noticed it somewhere down the line, and in cases when these failures were mandated from above it probably bothers them to some degree. 

You understand all this yet you can’t seem to understand what I mean when I say storytelling is inherently contrived. Well alright then. Even disregarding, I don’t like this way of thinking to some extent because it just assumes bad intent by the author which is just the definition of bad faith. Because you’re assuming the author did this knowing it was a bad idea. When first of all, again that’s the definition of bad faith assuming the worst in something from any kind of authoritative voice. Secondly, I have met people who were legitimately sad over Lilith’s death. They exist and I think it’s quite arrogant of you to assume that no one is capable of feeling sad over her death just because you personally didn’t. Unless you want to argue that they’re stupid for feeling sad over the death which is just rude plain and simple.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ottservia

[Etrurian emperor]

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You understand all this yet you can’t seem to understand what I mean when I say storytelling is inherently contrived. Well alright then. Even disregarding, I don’t like this way of thinking to some extent because it just assumes bad intent by the author which is just the definition of bad faith. Because you’re assuming the author did this knowing it was a bad idea. When first of all, again that’s the definition of bad faith assuming the worst in something from any kind of authoritative voice. Secondly, I have met people who were legitimately sad over Lilith’s death. They exist and I think it’s quite arrogant of you to assume that no one is capable of feeling sad over her death just because you personally didn’t. Unless you want to argue that they’re stupid for feeling sad over the death which is just rude plain and simple.

Yeah. Sometimes authors don't have good intentions. Or must make due with bad circumstances. Loot boxes still need to be sold, deadline still needs to be met, fanservice must still be included, marketing goals must still be met and the authors personal ambitions or lack thereof must still be satisfied. I for one sincerely doubt that anyone on the writing team felt that the deeprealms and children having teenaged kids was what the story really needed. They did it because it was a popular mechanic from Awakening, not because it made any narrative sense. And yeah, only Corrinsexuals dying in the golden route is somewhat suspicious. Yeah, often authors probably know some ideas that they have aren't the best path. That goes for the Deeprealm, the First Order, the Mad Queen or whatnot. And I understand what you mean, I just think most people are aware that its in everyone's best interest to hide the puppet string. The Audience doesn't want to see the strings and the writer doesn't want to reveal it. That's what the willing suspension of disbelief is for. 

Lilith is ultimately more akin to Omochao than to Eggman. Or more akin to Mila's Turnwheel than to Mae. She's not a character in her own right but a way to introduce My Castle, after which she completely disappears from the story until its time to die. That is not up for debate. And that her death doesn't take away her gameplay function within My Castle further lends credence to the idea her death was surgically designed to have someone die without it inconveniencing the player in any real way. Ultimately people like who they like. I'm fond of some characters who can't be considered all that good. People can like Lilith, but she's still primarily a gameplay mechanic instead of a character which makes her role as the sacrifice to raise the stake suspicious. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

And that her death doesn't take away her gameplay function within My Castle further lends credence to the idea her death was surgically designed to have someone die without it inconveniencing the player in any real way.

Reminds me that there is a way to do this better in RPGs. That being- kill the character, but have someone else directly inherit everything the deceased had in gameplay sometime thereafter. Same level, same class, same skills, inventory, everything except the portrait/model and VA in gameplay.

-The problem with attempting this in FE though would be supports. Although supports aren't so important in gameplay that it would be a terrible loss if you lost all of them for a unit and had to build them anew b/c they're a new person not so befriended to the deceased's allies. -Inheriting the dead person's spouse and their children would be a tricker matter though, we can't have that happen!

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Like I said I don’t like to believe these writers are stupid that’s just disrespectful.

I never said any writers were stupid. You can use spiritual symbolism in a largely meaningless way while still being intelligent. Stories need window dressing too and, to some extent, adhering strictly to an established belief system can interfere with the story the writer is actually trying to tell.  By the same token, I'm not going to pretend tossing in some symbolism actually elevates a story. The story should be judged only by the merits of the story itself.

[Ottservia]

33 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yeah. Sometimes authors don't have good intentions. Or must make due with bad circumstances. Loot boxes still need to be sold, deadline still needs to be met, fanservice must still be included, marketing goals must still be met and the authors personal ambitions or lack thereof must still be satisfied. I for one sincerely doubt that anyone on the writing team felt that the deeprealms and children having teenaged kids was what the story really needed. They did it because it was a popular mechanic from Awakening, not because it made any narrative sense. And yeah, only Corrinsexuals dying in the golden route is somewhat suspicious. Yeah, often authors probably know some ideas that they have aren't the best path. That goes for the Deeprealm, the First Order, the Mad Queen or whatnot. And I understand what you mean, I just think most people are aware that its in everyone's best interest to hide the puppet string. The Audience doesn't want to see the strings and the writer doesn't want to reveal it. That's what the willing suspension of disbelief is for. 

Lilith is ultimately more akin to Omochao than to Eggman. Or more akin to Mila's Turnwheel than to Mae. She's not a character in her own right but a way to introduce My Castle, after which she completely disappears from the story until its time to die. That is not up for debate. And that her death doesn't take away her gameplay function within My Castle further lends credence to the idea her death was surgically designed to have someone die without it inconveniencing the player in any real way. Ultimately people like who they like. I'm fond of some characters who can't be considered all that good. People can like Lilith, but she's still primarily a gameplay mechanic instead of a character which makes her role as the sacrifice to raise the stake suspicious. 

Is it really so hard to not assume the worst intentions in a piece of fiction. Just because something seems shallow that doesn’t mean it actually is. The reason that people do feel anything for Lilith’s death means that there is meaning and depth to it. Instead of dismissing it as some shallow attempt to manipulate the audience, how about you actually respect the author’s intentions and try to understand what the story is trying to convey with that. You can boil anything down to a shallow barebones poor intent description. It’s so easy to do, watch.
 

Naruto only lost to Sasuke for the first time at the valley at the end just as a subversion of expectation and the series was supposed to end there but his editors pressured him to continue the series so they could make more money off of it. You see how easy it is and almost everything I just typed is not true. First, yes it could’ve been a subversion of expectation but it does not take away from the deep thematic conflict of Naruto only lost to Sasuke because he failed to understand Sasuke and contradicted himself in the process. Sasuke was alone because he knew the pain of loss while Naruto didn’t but instead of trying to understand Sasuke just forced his will onto him thoughtlessly. Secondly, Kishimoto continued the series of his volition because he felt he could do more with these characters and thought the story was not finished by that point. His editors had nothing to do with it. A better example would be Kubo who ended bleach on his own terms. Shounen jump never told him to rush the ending. He decided to end the series early due to his declining health. The man was literally dying writing and drawing the last arc of bleach so it makes sense he’d cut the ending short instead of kicking the bucket without being able to end his story. I just think authors deserve a basic level of respect, you know
 

 

[Samz707]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

 

Personally I’d like to give writers a lot more credit than that. 

This is the game with Babyrealms that also threw in several Awakening characters entirely because they won a popularity pol in Japan.

Also just because something has symbolism, doesn't inherently make it better.

If I added Christ imagry for instance to a work, then had one character suddenly betray the main cast for the sake of having a "Judas" in it, except it makes no real sense and just exists for that religious parallel, that doesn't make it better, it's still a dumb decision and if anything it arguably is worse because now it's just pretentious. 

 

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Is it really so hard to not assume the worst intentions in a piece of fiction. Just because something seems shallow that doesn’t mean it actually is. The reason that people do feel anything for Lilith’s death means that there is meaning and depth to it. Instead of dismissing it as some shallow attempt to manipulate the audience, how about you actually respect the author’s intentions and try to understand what the story is trying to convey with that. You can boil anything down to a shallow barebones poor intent description. It’s so easy to do, watch.

People probably factor in alot more than just those individual moments.

In the case of Lilith, I have played and seen alot of really dumb death scenes and such in fiction, where I'm supposed to care about the death of someone who has less than 20 minutes of screen time (Such as the really terrible 2013 Reboot, where I'm expected to care for characters that have less than 20 lines in 3-5 hours when they die.), Lilith actually has more screen time than some of these characters.

Respect should be earned, not given by default.

Frankly, sometimes the meaning for something is purely "BECAUSE IT'S DRAMATIC!"  or similar shallow interactions

Sometimes, something that looks shallow, is shallow.

Why is Nergal somehow able to summon a dragon after dying in FE7? because we need a dragon boss fight. (Sure you could be like me and have assumed he just needed more quintessence to actually defeat the dragon once he summoned it, but the game never actually states this so it's just head-canon.)

Why does the entirety of the Arena Ferox mini-arc in Awakening exist? so we can have a really dumb anime sword fight between Chrom and Lucina to put in the trailers.

Why does Babyreal/Awakening characters in Fates exist? because Awakening sold well.

Why does the Grima Dungeon in Echoes exist? because gotta sell that Overclass DLC, also Awakening.

And why does Heroes add tons of skimpy characters? because people will buy JPEGS of Camilla in a towel because Horny.

Sometimes, there is simply no deeper meaning or if there IS a deeper meaning, that doesn't mean it's a good well executed meaning.

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Samz707

[Etrurian emperor]

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Is it really so hard to not assume the worst intentions in a piece of fiction.

Sure. Despite me not being impressed by the Death Knight I think the writers had good intentions. And while I don't like what happened with the Black Knight I do not assume the worst intentions. Its not hard. But it remains a case by case bases. Sometimes its very easy to spot the outside influences or ulterior motive. 

 

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Instead of dismissing it as some shallow attempt to manipulate the audience, how about you actually respect the author’s intentions

Lilith's ghost in My Castle reveals the intentions pretty clear. A death scene without that death having consequences. 

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

A better example would be Kubo who ended bleach on his own terms. Shounen jump never told him to rush the ending. He decided to end the series early due to his declining health. The man was literally dying writing and drawing the last arc of bleach so it makes sense he’d cut the ending short instead of kicking the bucket without being able to end his story. I just think authors deserve a basic level of respect, you know
 

Wasn't most of Bleach haunted by the famously BAD relation between Kubo and Shonen which in turn contributed to his declining health? That and the slave pit of Jump in general guaranteeing declining health for most people trapped in it? 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Ottservia]

37 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Wasn't most of Bleach haunted by the famously BAD relation between Kubo and Shonen which in turn contributed to his declining health? That and the slave pit of Jump in general guaranteeing declining health for most people trapped in it? 

Okay first of all, Kubo does not have a bad relationship with his editors. That is just straight up false. He even goes on record to state numerous times in interviews and volume blurbs to say he and his editors are good friends. He even congratulated his editor on getting married in one his little volume blurbs. So no he doesn’t have a bad relationship with his editors. He just has a unique view on criticism. One I actually agree with in that you shouldn’t try to please everyone. If you show your work to 10 people and half of them love it while the other half hates it, then you should work on pleasing those who like it because you shouldn’t have to compromise your artistic expression to please people who will never enjoy what you write. Write what you want because it’s your story and you shouldn’t have to conform to the opinions of others if you feel it doesn’t align with the story you want to tell. 

In regards to shonen jump, yes the industry tough and grueling but artistic passion plays a part in that as well. Shonen jump does allow breaks if the mangaka isn’t doing so well healthwise like recently with Gege and JJK. SJ even allow series to end on the author’s own terms instead of pressuring them to continue because they found it leads to better stories. Even in regards to Kubo, specifically, he only continued on despite declining health because of a letter from a fan who was terminally ill and wanted to see the conclusion of Bleach’s story or at the very least wanted Kubo to reach the desired conclusion of his story. I’d recommend reading Bakuman it’s a pretty good look into how the industry works even if it’s not entirely realistic. Which is why I also recommend doing your damn research instead of continuing to spread misinformation like this.

37 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Lilith's ghost in My Castle reveals the intentions pretty clear. A death scene without that death having consequences. 

And you just proved my point thanks

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Is it really so hard to not assume the worst intentions in a piece of fiction. Just because something seems shallow that doesn’t mean it actually is. The reason that people do feel anything for Lilith’s death means that there is meaning and depth to it. Instead of dismissing it as some shallow attempt to manipulate the audience, how about you actually respect the author’s intentions and try to understand what the story is trying to convey with that. You can boil anything down to a shallow barebones poor intent description. It’s so easy to do, watch.

You use the word twice there, and I think there is some irony to it.  You can't assume bad intentions, but you should assume good intentions. It's a bit of a double standard. I say don't assume any intentions, and look what is actually written. Which for Lilith is a completely non existent characters. Does she have even a single word of dialogue between introducing My Castle and dying in Birthright and Conquest? I don't think she does. She's an under developed character whose death comes out of nowhere and contributes nothing to the story. Editing out her death, especially in Conquest when she's killed by a random faceless and not even a main character, would be trivial. As would removing her wholesale from the plot once the concept of My Castle is introduced. These are fair assessments of the role she plays in the story (which is basically no role at all). To give a poorly written death a pass just because the writer is working hard on the story is disrespectful to the entire craft of writing. As it says it doesn't matter how good something actually is, merit should be valued only based on effort. Which is, frankly ridiculous. Lilith's death is not equal to the death of a character that actually provides a pivotal role in the story. We don't even need to leave Fates to point to a better example. Elise's death is just like Lilith's, only Elise's death is handled much better, she's an actual character in the story and her death actually motivates Corrin and couldn't just be removed without drastically changing the conflict with Xander. It's still not the best death scene in history, it is, to some degree, choreographed and, much like Lilith, she vanishes for the majority of the story, but it's still monumentally better than either of Lilith's deaths.

[Samz707]

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

And you just proved my point thanks

So how does having Lilith come back after her death scene somehow not undercut it all to you?

You should be proving why it's worth respecting, rather than just bluntly shutting down anyone who disagrees.

 

[Ottservia]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You use the word twice there, and I think there is some irony to it.  You can't assume bad intentions, but you should assume good intentions. It's a bit of a double standard. I say don't assume any intentions, and look what is actually written. Which for Lilith is a completely non existent characters. Does she have even a single word of dialogue between introducing My Castle and dying in Birthright and Conquest? I don't think she does. She's an under developed character whose death comes out of nowhere and contributes nothing to the story. Editing out her death, especially in Conquest when she's killed by a random faceless and not even a main character, would be trivial. As would removing her wholesale from the plot once the concept of My Castle is introduced. These are fair assessments of the role she plays in the story (which is basically no role at all). To give a poorly written death a pass just because the writer is working hard on the story is disrespectful to the entire craft of writing. As it says it doesn't matter how good something actually is, merit should be valued only based on effort. Which is, frankly ridiculous. Lilith's death is not equal to the death of a character that actually provides a pivotal role in the story. We don't even need to leave Fates to point to a better example. Elise's death is just like Lilith's, only Elise's death is handled much better, she's an actual character in the story and her death actually motivates Corrin and couldn't just be removed without drastically changing the conflict with Xander. It's still not the best death scene in history, it is, to some degree, choreographed and, much like Lilith, she vanishes for the majority of the story, but it's still monumentally better than either of Lilith's deaths.

That’s not at all what I’m trying to say. I just think it’s rude and disrespectful to say a story has no meaning when it clearly does because otherwise there wouldn’t be people who would legitimately feel sad over Lilith’s death. To say her death is meaningless and doesn’t contribute to the story in a meaningful way is simply wrong. The writers still made the conscious choice to put that death there when they could have easily not have done that. And to that end, it should have meaning because no plot point is done without any kind of thematic purpose well executed or otherwise. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Like or dislike things on their merits and for what they offer just don’t dismiss them for not mattering when you could instead figure out why they do. I don’t think something the author thought was important enough to show should be dismissed because of personal bias.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not at all what I’m trying to say. I just think it’s rude and disrespectful to say a story has no meaning when it clearly does because otherwise there wouldn’t be people who would legitimately feel sad over Lilith’s death. To say her death is meaningless and doesn’t contribute to the story in a meaningful way is simply wrong. The writers still made the conscious choice to put that death there when they could have easily not have done that. And to that end, it should have meaning because no plot point is done without any kind of thematic purpose well executed or otherwise. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Like or dislike things on their merits and for what they offer just don’t dismiss them for not mattering when you could instead figure why they do. I don’t think something the author thought was important enough to show should be dismissed because of personal bias.

But I am dismissing it on its own merits. It seems your the one praising it not for its merits, but merely for the fact that it was written by a human and therefore inherently positive.

And obviously, for series like this, things can be done without thematic purpose, because the whole point of the work is to generate revenue. If the marketing department doesn't like something, then it can and will get axed from the game. The writers do not have complete creative control (nor do they in most mediums).

Edited October 31, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But I am dismissing it on its own merits. It seems your the one praising it not for its merits, but merely for the fact that it was written by a human and therefore inherently positive.

Who said I was praising it? First of all I agree that Lilith’s death is poorly executed though it is retroactively made better thanks to hidden truths. Secondly, I’m gonna repeat what I said. 

 

6 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Like or dislike things on their merits and for what they offer just don’t dismiss them for not mattering when you could instead figure out why they do.

 

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And obviously, for series like this, things can be done without thematic purpose, because the whole point of the work is to generate revenue. If the marketing department doesn't like something, then it can and will get axed from the game. The writers do not have complete creative control (nor do they in most mediums).

I mean you could the say the same for every weekly manga magazine. Under weekly serialization, mangaka are constantly under pressure of getting their series canceled if they under perform but that doesn’t mean their stories don’t have thematic meaning. That’s just inherently false so this argument is just plain stupid.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Who said I was praising it? First of all I agree that Lilith’s death is poorly executed though it is retroactively made better thanks to hidden truths. Secondly, I’m gonna repeat what I said. 

Well then what are you even arguing about?

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

I mean you could the say the same for every weekly manga magazine. Under weekly serialization, mangaka are constantly under pressure of getting their series canceled if they under perform but that doesn’t mean their stories don’t have thematic meaning. That’s just inherently false so this argument is just plain stupid.

Yes, one can say that quite easily. And I'm sure with just a bit of research one can find dozens of examples of it being true (look at basically the entire cartoon industry in western media which for decades was designed to sell toys). No, obviously this doesn't mean a work doesn't have thematic meaning. I didn't say that, no one said that. What I'm saying is the fact that a human wrote it does not mean everything inside it inherently has thematic meaning. Executive meddling is a very real thing and it can interfere with an artists vision. And, just in general, and artist can be just plain bad when it comes to creating thematic meaning in their work, or just generally not care about making a work that is thematically resonant. People do, proudly, make popcorn fliks.

[Ottservia]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well then what are you even arguing about?

That if a writer goes out of there way to bring the audience’s attention to something then there is always a reason for it. Sure the curtains may just be blue but why would the author go out of his way to describe them as blue. If it was truly a meaningless detail that ultimately didn’t matter then the author would not have made the decision to describe the color of the curtains in the first place. This should be especially true if you’re working on a deadline. Why would an author waste time on seemingly meaningless details or plot points without good reason? So maybe instead of saying the curtains were just blue maybe try to figure why the author tried to describe them as such in the first place

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That if a writer goes out of there way to bring the audience’s attention to something then there is always a reason for it. Sure the curtains may just be blue but why would the author go out of his way to describe them as blue. If it was truly a meaningless detail that ultimately didn’t matter then the author would not have made the decision to describe the color of the curtains in the first place. This should be especially true if you’re working on a deadline. Why would an author waste time on seemingly meaningless details or plot points without good reason? So maybe instead of saying the curtains were just blue maybe try to figure why the author tried to describe them as such in the first place

And because the blue curtain company is paying the author's boss to advertise blue curtains is a very possible reason for the curtains being blue. As is the possibility that the writer had blue curtains in their home as a child and they bring a palpable sense of nostalgia to that particularly writer, but it's a sense of nostalgia that is lost on any other person who reads the book because most people don't grow up with blue curtains. Artistic vision can be compromised by politics and economics, artistic vision can be just plain bad, and writers can write artistic vision without any interest in making it thematically resonant.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And because the blue curtain company is paying the author's boss to advertise blue curtains is a very possible reason for the curtains being blue. As is the possibility that the writer had blue curtains in their home as a child and they bring a palpable sense of nostalgia to that particularly writer, but it's a sense of nostalgia that is lost on any other person who reads the book because most people don't grow up with blue curtains. Artistic vision can be compromised by politics and economics, artistic vision can be just plain bad, and writers can write artistic vision without any interest in making it thematically resonant.

And my point is who says those two things are mutually exclusive? Why can’t something be both thematically meaningful and there for marketing reasons. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. It can fulfill both and I’d like to give the the writers the benefit of the doubt in regards to that and try to find that meaning.

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

And my point is who says those two things are mutually exclusive? Why can’t something be both thematically meaningful and there for marketing reasons. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. It can fulfill both and I’d like to give the the writers the benefit of the doubt in regards to that and try to find that meaning.

Of course it can. It's possible turn a corporate mandate into something thematically meaningful. But it's also possible to just...not. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it always is. Some things are obviously and admittedly phoned in.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

And you just proved my point thanks

You're welcome but its you who refuses to see the obvious.