What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Florete]

8 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

It's a lot more popular these days. Clive has better bulk and availability than her, and he can make most of the Ridersbane. He's probably the 7th best character in Alm's route behind Kliff, Silque, Alm, Faye, Tobin, and Python.

Availability is overrated. That's both a response to this and potentially my "unpopular opinion" for the thread. I consider it much less than I used to, and probably less than many people online to this day do.

For the record, I played Echoes only once, when it released, on hard/classic, and haven't been involved in any discussion of it since then. I just remember, from both my own playthrough and anecdotal discussion I saw at the time, that they had different statistical strengths at first which led to mostly similar performance overall, but after promotion, due to how promotion works in the game, Mathilda catches up in everything she was behind Clive in while Clive doesn't receive the same treatment.

[Venger_06]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

When did Clive's star rise in terms of unit appraisals? 

2021 at least, it was when I noticed some Clive reappraisal. Mekkah even made some videos about him recently.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Clive depends, in a big way, on getting him a full level in the final map of Act I. That lets him promote to Paladin before Act III starts. Sure, you can have him skirmish in the Deliverance HQ... but then you're spending turns you wouldn't otherwise.

This is Shadows of Valentia, a game where most units take a bit of love to become really good.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

And you can't "backtrack" once Act III begins, because Desaix keeps sending reinforcements your way. If he stays in Cavalier, his Act III performance is dreadful.

Fun fact: you can, in fact, backtrack in Act 3 as long as you didn't move past a certain thresold on the map.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Availability is overrated. That's both a response to this and potentially my "unpopular opinion" for the thread. I consider it much less than I used to, and probably less than many people online to this day do.

I partly agree. I think availability is overrated in cases like Clive, who aren't actually particularly impressive in their extra availability. I don't think it's overrated for cases like Marcus/Seth/Titania, who spend their extra availability compared to later-joiners being incredibly good.

1 hour ago, Newtype06 said:

This is Shadows of Valentia, a game where most units take a bit of love to become really good.

Well, notably, Mathilda needs very little! She just shows up out of the box with, at least to my recollection, much better speed than Clive is likely to possess unless you baby him like mad, and similar stats otherwise. Like Florete I've only played this game once and don't discuss it much but I played on the highest difficulty and Mathilda was certainly capable of handling enemies right out of the gate with good mobility and never falls off, so she's at least pretty good.

[Jotari]

All units on Alm's route are low tier except Alm and Silque. And Silque is only good because she can warp Alm to where he needs to be to solo the map.

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/15/2023 at 4:21 PM, Florete said:

Availability is overrated. That's both a response to this and potentially my "unpopular opinion" for the thread. I consider it much less than I used to, and probably less than many people online to this day do.

Personally, I buy into this myself. Look at the likes of Arthur and Niles in Conquest. They have high availability, but I still consider them to be low tiers.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Availability is just one mixed case factor to consider alongside other factors. A good character available during difficult parts of a game is better than a good character who is not. And a lot of characters are hurt by poor availability (in Radiant Dawn especially). RD even has a case of a character being hurt by high availability (Illyana), because she leaves a party who could use her for a party who very much doesn't need her.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Fabulously Olivier

[Samz707]

Well I got further in Hopes.

Byleth has time stop now, which is pretty much the one thing they couldn't do in Houses.

Yeah Hopes Byleth is just outright bad now to me, literally inventing new powers out of nowhere just so Shez can't win.

It's like the writing quality tanks because the lead writer had Byleth as their waifu, I really do not see how people like this at all.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Well I got further in Hopes.

Byleth has time stop now, which is pretty much the one thing they couldn't do in Houses.

Yeah Hopes Byleth is just outright bad now to me, literally inventing new powers out of nowhere just so Shez can't win.

It's like the writing quality tanks because the lead writer had Byleth as their waifu, I really do not see how people like this at all.

Well to be fair, time stop is the best way to manifest divine pulse as an ability given the difference in gameplay.

[Samz707]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well to be fair, time stop is the best way to manifest divine pulse as an ability given the difference in gameplay.

It still strikes me as a dumb "Shez can't win against Byleth because plot" retcon.

It completely took me out of the scene and shot down all tension because of how inexplicably out of nowehre it is.

It woudln't surprise me if the writers would have Byleth pull out a gun to win at this point.

As someone who actually likes Byleth, I wonder what everyone else is smoking to think this is good.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Samz707

[Jotari]

Just now, Samz707 said:

It still strikes me as a dumb "Shez can't win against Byleth because plot" retcon.

It completely took me out of the scene and shot down all tension because of how inexplicably out of nowehre it is.

It woudln't surprise me if the writers would have Byleth pull out a gun to win at this point.

As someone who actually likes Byleth, I wonder what everyone else is smoking to think this is good.

What's the alternative? You want Shez to just kill Byleth because Shez is just that much more awesome?

[Samz707]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What's the alternative? You want Shez to just kill Byleth because Shez is just that much more awesome?

Or just.

Have Byleth retreat.

That thing alot of FE bosses do.

Infact Houses did it so much people memed it.

A rival doesn't lose all threat just because they lose once and pulling op new powers out of nowhere just makes me lose all investment because why should I care about the plot when you as a writer blatantly don't either.

I unironically think the Death Knight in Houses was better than this, at least they were consistent.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Samz707

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Well I got further in Hopes.

Byleth has time stop now, which is pretty much the one thing they couldn't do in Houses.

Yeah Hopes Byleth is just outright bad now to me, literally inventing new powers out of nowhere just so Shez can't win.

It's like the writing quality tanks because the lead writer had Byleth as their waifu, I really do not see how people like this at all.

I'm confused.

If you mean in gameplay, yeah, Byleth has a time stop, which as Olivier notes is an attempt to translate divine pulse into a warriors setting. If you mean in cutscenes, then no, it's still just divine pulse; they're clearly rewinding time to be in a different place when they attack / etc. It's not a surprise that "can rewind time" Byleth is gonna be more powerful in a cutscene than "can change hair colour and gets a cool magical sword" Shez. Shez has no business winning a direct fight there, story-wise.

And I say this as someone who likes Shez more.

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm confused.

If you mean in gameplay, yeah, Byleth has a time stop, which as Olivier notes is an attempt to translate divine pulse into a warriors setting. If you mean in cutscenes, then no, it's still just divine pulse; they're clearly rewinding time to be in a different place when they attack / etc. It's not a surprise that "can rewind time" Byleth is gonna be more powerful in a cutscene than "can change hair colour and gets a cool magical sword" Shez. Shez has no business winning a direct fight there, story-wise.

And I say this as someone who likes Shez more.

But my name's not Olivier T.T

I'll also note it's not even Byleth in that cutscene, it's Sothis stealing Byleth's body. And get couldn't just have Byleth retreat as the whole purpose was to show that Byleth was progressing and gaining more from Sothis's powers just like in Houses. If Byleth just reappeared with Green Hair it would be really confusing for new time viewers and just a (literal sense) plot hole for people who know why. If anyone is done dirty by that encounter it's Sothis and not Byleth, as it effectively resulted in rewriting her entire personality and having her subvert Byleth's autonomy of their own body. But, eh, at least we got a Fallen Hero out of it.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Jotari

[Samz707]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm confused.

If you mean in gameplay, yeah, Byleth has a time stop, which as Olivier notes is an attempt to translate divine pulse into a warriors setting. If you mean in cutscenes, then no, it's still just divine pulse; they're clearly rewinding time to be in a different place when they attack / etc. It's not a surprise that "can rewind time" Byleth is gonna be more powerful in a cutscene than "can change hair colour and gets a cool magical sword" Shez. Shez has no business winning a direct fight there, story-wise.

And I say this as someone who likes Shez more.

Which isnt something Byleth could do in Houses, so it comes off as a clunky retcon to yet again have Byleth win the fight.

Byleth already suddenly inexplicably wins 2 fights before this, so its real hard to get invested in a rival when they're only winning because of the writing bailing thsm out. (Including the one where Byleth retreats, which gets awkwardly spun imto them winning, somehow, Im on Scarlet Blaze.)

As someone who saw praise for these scenes before playing, this rivalry is a complete letdown.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Samz707

[Etrurian emperor]

22 hours ago, Samz707 said:

It still strikes me as a dumb "Shez can't win against Byleth because plot" retcon.

Doesn't Sothis pop out precisely because Shez was winning at the time?

[Samz707]

22 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Doesn't Sothis pop out precisely because Shez was winning at the time?

And since Byleth already won the previous fights for dumb reasons, it's gotten predictable and stale by this point. (Because the plot says so, interrupting gameplay in the first encounter and secondly in a weird dumb "You make Byleth retreat, which is a side mission, but now the game is going to treat it like Shez ran away anyway.) way.

If this was the first time Byleth got a weird bail out, I'd still not like it (Since Divine Pulse just now is literally the exact opposite kind of time power it was in Houses.) but by this point I'm sick of it since Byleth has consistently failed to be a threat in gameplay so it comes off as extra nonsensical when they suddenly win. (And again, this the third time.) 

I honestly feel the Death Knight is just a better rival than Byleth in pretty much every way, actually a threat in gameplay and no dumb cutscenes trying to insist they beat you when they didn't.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Samz707

[Dark Holy Elf]

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

But my name's not Olivier T.T

Whoops, sorry! Not sure how my brain jumped there.

17 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Which isnt something Byleth could do in Houses, so it comes off as a clunky retcon to yet again have Byleth win the fight.

Can you clarify what part of my post you're responding to? You seem to be talking about Byleth winning the fight (cutscene) but the only thing I mentioned that Byleth "couldn't do" in Houses was gameplay only, so I see no retcon.

17 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Byleth already suddenly inexplicably wins 2 fights before this, so its real hard to get invested in a rival when they're only winning because of the writing bailing thsm out. (Including the one where Byleth retreats, which gets awkwardly spun imto them winning, somehow, Im on Scarlet Blaze.)

 

Prologue: Byleth wins the fight (in both plot and gameplay), Shez gets superpowers, fight ends before any sort of winner can emerge.

Chapter 5: Byleth can be beaten, although it's not expected that the player will. That said, the game acknowledges this if you do by having Byleth retreat; Shez notes that they "failed to defeat the Ashen Demon" in the cutscene that follows.

I don't really think either of those are spun into Byleth "winning". Chapter 5 is set up such that Shez is unable to win, so they still feel the drive to keep getting stronger so they can win in the future.

Now, in the Chapter 7 cutscene, Byleth kicks Shez's ass (Sothis would have killed Shez if Byleth hadn't taken over for a moment and restrained her), but again, that's because Sothis!Byleth is awakened and Shez would not reasonably be able to win that fight for reasons already outlined.

If Byleth is failing to be a threat in gameplay you can always try playing on a higher difficulty. I fought them in NG Maddening recently and it's a chore just to get them down to the 90% health needed to trigger Jeralt/Alois to appear, let alone actually defeating them which, if you're ever able to pull that off, you have my highest respect. Individual opponents generally aren't very scary in Three Hopes (because the player gets so many bailout tactics like combat arts/magic and warrior specials) but Byleth is absolutely tuned to be pretty tough to beat in gameplay, especially the time that you are able, but not supposed to, win (Chapter 5).

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

And since Byleth already won the previous fights for dumb reasons, it's gotten predictable and stale by this point. (Because the plot says so, interrupting gameplay in the first encounter and secondly in a weird dumb "You make Byleth retreat, which is a side mission, but now the game is going to treat it like Shez ran away anyway.) way.

If this was the first time Byleth got a weird bail out, I'd still not like it (Since Divine Pulse just now is literally the exact opposite kind of time power it was in Houses.) but by this point I'm sick of it since Byleth has consistently failed to be a threat in gameplay so it comes off as extra nonsensical when they suddenly win. (And again, this the third time.) 

I honestly feel the Death Knight is just a better rival than Byleth in pretty much every way, actually a threat in gameplay and no dumb cutscenes trying to insist they beat you when they didn't.

I don't want to say you're wrong, because you obviously have a sincere reaction to this and it's bothering you a lot. But I don't think you're actually articulating why it's upsetting you so much. It feels like you'd complain about basically anything the game could try to do, because most of the solutions you suggest are things the game actually does do, but then you still don't like it when it does. Unless you want Shez to just straight up kill Byleth in the prologue.

For starters I will point out that narratively nothing has changed about Divine Pulse. It's still something Byleth can do that gives them the edge but doesn't make them all powerful. Byleth is not now using time stop to slit people's throats before they can even move like someone with time stopping powers could do. Instead its manifesting mostly by looking like teleporting. That is in the cutscene, in terms of gameplay it does work like that, but the game never actually has Byleth use time pulse against you as an enemy in gameplay. Regardless, narratively speaking, Divine Pulse is working exactly the same, it's just being visualized differently due to the difference in gameplay and also because Shez (and by extension the player) needs to actually be able to notice it to be informed that it exists.

Next, gameplay. You say Byleth isn't a threat in gameplay. But, like, they are. They have much higher stats than any other enemy and are much more difficult to defeat. You might find it still easy to beat Byleth and just a little more tedious and that's true...but only because Dynasty Warrior games are honestly just kind of bad when it comes to gameplay and a bit notorious for it. They found a basic engine that works like twenty years ago and have deviated little from it since, so just dodging and poking will be a successful way to kill pretty much any standard enemy. The only solution is to make their strength so high that they one shot you when you slip up and get hit, or to just make them invincible if they're not meant to be fought and only run from. There's very little way, within the confines of the engine you can achieve all the aims of A)Making Byleth threatening B)Making Byleth's defeat an optional if difficult reward C)Making both A and B actually fun.

Finally you still seem to be ignoring Sothis's role in this, who as I said before is the one really receiving the retcon. Even if we accept the premise that Divine Pulse has changed significantly, and even if we accept the premise that Byleth shouldn't win, then that's exactly what happens. As it isn't Byleth fighting in the scene in question. It's Sothis. Shez was about to kill Byleth until Sothis took over. Sothis is the one using Divine Pulse and it's even Byleth that prevents Sothis from killing Shez. Byleth does lose the fight, and Byleth does win the fight and it's justified within the logic of the narrative in both directions. This scene also is establishing something that just having another draw wouldn't, as the relationship between Sothis and Arval is an element of the story, albeit one we never truly get full details on.

[Acacia Sgt]

Say, if I recall correctly, Sothis actually says she stopped time when Byleth intercepted Kostas' attack at the beginning of Houses. It's when she and Byleth have their little chat before rewinding time.

Ah, found the lines.

As I see it, stopping time has been a thing since Day 1. It's just that... it never was relevant to be used again in Houses, apparently.

Then again, it's not like they could do anything while it was stopped, no? Outside rewinding...

Edited May 26, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[SnowFire]

On 5/15/2023 at 6:35 PM, Newtype06 said:

2021 at least, it was when I noticed some Clive reappraisal. Mekkah even made some videos about him recently.

This is Shadows of Valentia, a game where most units take a bit of love to become really good.

Fun fact: you can, in fact, backtrack in Act 3 as long as you didn't move past a certain thresold on the map.

Belated reply to the earlier discussion...  an hour long video (that was part 3!) that spends 20 minutes discussing Clive vs. Mathilda is too hardcore for my tastes (I did watch 5 minutes from the linked section), but while I'm not completely averse to Clive > Mathilda (or even just Clive = Mathilda), the particular tier list used still seems kinda bonkers.  If I was sincerely out to hype Clive > Mathilda, it would be an argument on availability, essentially - that Clive is usable in C1 / C3 (better to give a Ridersbane to a Cavalier than a Soldier/Knight, Clive has the Strength required to OHKO common enemy cavalry with it), that you're not really interested in Gold Knights for C5 anyway, that if you want a Gold Knight for C5 Zeke and/or Mycen don't require any grinding while Mathilda will need at least some catch-up.  Basically, it should mean that Mathilda is considered low-tier, and Clive beats her by dint of existing when there was less competition, similar to a Wolt vs. Dorothy vibe.  But...  the tier list is hyping both as B-tier!  Over some pretty solid units elsewhere!  Wacky.  If you like the Cavalier / Paladin line, Mathilda makes a good one if you can have her survive to her Gold Knight promotion which fixes her durability, she should have the best stats of all 5 GK options by endgame, and Clive looks bad in comparison...  although admittedly, her speed edge isn't as potent as you'd think, because the final map's enemies are mostly either incredibly slow (<10 Spd) or blazingly fast (25 Spd+), so all the intermediate differences get buried a bit.  Anyway, point is, if the tier list maker likes using GKs in C4/C5, Mathilda should easily beat Clive.

Edited May 26, 2023 by SnowFire

[Dark Holy Elf]

Also wow, the Reddit thread linked there is certainly... something. Literally everyone giving out exactly the same score over and over (except one person put Clive one rank different). I'm not sure if the hivemind is due to the system of upvotes/downvotes where deviating from the "agreed upon" view gets you downvoted, or if it's just a culture of following a couple prominent Youtubers or whatever, but either way I dislike it.

I dunno is this is qualifies as an unpopular opinion, but: judging unit worth in a Fire Emblem game is not a precise exercise and if everyone is agreeing to a high level of precision it's generally a sign of a lack of independent thought. Obviously some cases are so obvious that broad agreement makes sense (e.g. Seth good, Sophia bad) but these cases are the exception. I'm really glad Serenes discussions tend to have more diverse perspectives on units (even if it means seeing takes I may personally disagree with 🙂 ).

[Jotari]

I was mostly joking earlier when I said everyone but Alm and Silque were low tier, but I was trying to say something beyond just a humor. I don't see a huge ammount of merit in arguing tiers for Valentia in particular. There is no deployment limit. Use Clive and Mathilda both and let them performance be whatever is needed of them at any given time. Unless the argument is more about who should get more exp and lion statues...in which case I refer back to how you can just mostly solo the game with Alm.

[Samz707]

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Say, if I recall correctly, Sothis actually says she stopped time when Byleth intercepted Kostas' attack at the beginning of Houses. It's when she and Byleth have their little chat before rewinding time.

Ah, found the lines.

As I see it, stopping time has been a thing since Day 1. It's just that... it never was relevant to be used again in Houses, apparently.

Then again, it's not like they could do anything while it was stopped, no? Outside rewinding...

Just stop and rewind.

Actual "free" time stop where they can pull a Dio Brando wasnt a thing.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Samz707

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Just stop and rewind.

Actual "free" time stop where they can pull a Dio Brando wasnt a thing.

But she doesn't pull any Dio moves. Like I said, it actually manifests more like teleportation. If it was Dio's variation of time stop then Shez would be straight up dead. As time stop is one of those powers so broken it can only be beaten by another time stop.

[Samz707]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But she doesn't pull any Dio moves. Like I said, it actually manifests more like teleportation. If it was Dio's variation of time stop then Shez would be straight up dead. As time stop is one of those powers so broken it can only be beaten by another time stop.

It's still not something Byleth can do in Houses, so it comes off as a clunky needless retcon.