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What would you want out of a FE6 Echoes?

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As one who really wants an FE6 Echoes to happen next, the main things I'd want to see fixed is:

  1. Assuming GBA stats are used again, bring all of the weapon stats up to FE7/8 standard. Those low base hit rates were not a pleasant sight, especially those poor axes.
  2. We've long beaten a dead Cavalier at this point, but it bears repeating one last time: buff Roy's stats. The memetic notion that "Roy sucks in his own game" needs to end. After all that Smash has done for our boy, this here's a debt long overdue.
On 7/17/2018 at 9:55 AM, Icelerate said:

Now that's just silly! On a more serious note, would you like to see a Lilina mode to Binding Blade told from her perspective?

I would like to see that actually. Yes, make Lilina our first anima Mage Lord. I know this means we'd yet again have a case of male swordsman + female mage like with Alm and Celica (who uses swords in addition to magic, but still), and for two Echoes games in a row, no less. But she's Hector's child for goodness sake; no reason Eliwood's child can't share some of his spotlight. And after clearing Lilina mode, you unlock (or can buy DLC for) a set of bonus prologues where you play as Al, Gant, and Tiena from the manga who then join Roy's party at the start of the campaign proper, and you can choose whether to play or skip these prologues whenever you start a new game.

I can already imagine the debut trailer (or potentially the game's intro cutscene) showing old Eliwood and Hector introducing Roy and Lilina to each other, they go play; then the former ponder about Athos' prediction, the sudden assassination of King Desmond in Bern, and Zephiel inheriting the throne. Basically FE7's epilogue and continuing straight from that point. And then the usual intro about the Scouring. A very SoV-like intro, sure, but you know what, that's fine with me. Show me just this as a teaser trailer, and I would be even more pumped than I am for Smash Ultimate right now. Seriously, I would. And I FINALLY got a Roy amiibo recently, so...give me more reason to use it X)

Here's a question to chew on: Would you expect this remake to be on 3DS or Switch (regardless of carrying the Echoes moniker)? If on the Switch, do you think it would use SoV's engine or Three Houses' engine?

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Only if they keep it generally the same as FE6. I liked Echoes, but I'm afraid that they'd take it a bit too far and make the game suffer for it. I don't really trust IS with the things I like, so I'm a bit hesitant to say an FE6 Echoes would be a good idea.

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I've previously discussed in this thread, but I had some more think about Roy's viability and how to improve. I think the gameplay should be expanded beyond what was offered in Fates Conquest (except, of course, the S-support and child system) and have Roy's personality influence the outcome of the chapters outside of individual battles. More on here:

 

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You know Jahn?  Don't have him just be another generic enemy manakete.  Instead, have him transform into a fire dragon like the giant one in FE7.  Actually live up to his reputation of being the last true dragon.

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  1. I want overall higher stats for everyone including enemies. Not even a huge difference.
  2. Make legendary weapons unbreakable, only legendary.
  3. Characters from FE7 to return unless they have died.
  4. Finally, I want a feature where you can choose the parents for a character when you start a new file. This would slighty change bases and growths. For example, Wolt can have Sain, Wil, or Lowen as fathers, or just basic Wolt which will have an unnamed father, which will have all-around basic stats and growths. Depending on the father chosen, Wolt might have higher skill and speed like an archer, higher attack, or higher luck and defense. I really like this idea and I feel like it can give anyone the chance to do their favorite pairings without having to mess with other's pairings.

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You know, I don't even think the weapon balance in FE6 is that bad. Yeah, it's not, like, brilliant, but it's honestly better than the norm, in my opinion. Swords are usually terrible because they're weak and have no 1-2 range, but FE6's lower lance / axe hit rates actually make swords useful because they most consistently hit things. It's not like axes are even completely useless, a bit inaccurate but they do well against lance users and pack significant power. I think the fact that many people like Gonzales, an axe-locked unit with terrible skill, demonstrates that lower hit rates aren't necessarily a bad thing.

I think that some class / unit balance is in order, and also that it's more of an issue than the weapon balance. Again, there are good axe users, I don't think axes are the whole problem. Some things I think would work well for class balance:

  • Thieves promoting to Rogues, using, I don't know, an Orion's Bolt. Rename it something Robin Hood themed and gives people like me who like thieves too much a use for spare Orion's Bolts.
  • Paladins should probably lose their axe use, they're already really good without it.
  • I think giving Generals sword access, and thus giving this generally kinda garbage class some weapon triangle control, would be pretty neat. Knights / Generals need buffing overall and a new weapon on promotion doesn't fix that, but I think it would be an appropriate compromise for their low movement. In addition to some worthwhile stats, maybe a sort of FE10 approach could be taken, where your three unpromoted armor knights each start with access to two of the three components of the weapon triangle.
    • Giving Bors swords in addition to lances, even E swords, would be a pretty significant buff considering all the axes in the early game
    • Barth is the heavy guy, so you'd probably give him axes, which at least don't face WTD on the Western Isles.
    • This would leave Wendy with Sword and Axes and no lances, which would be kinda neat. Swords would make her a lot easier to train, probably.
  • Your basic archers could maybe be a bit better stat-wise as well. Nomads have high move and Snipers actually good stats, but your Wolt and Dorothy are pretty easily left behind by them.

And unit / character balance would be a whole other can of worms, but if supports were easier to come by, it might help.

People have talked about adding characters, and that seems likely and also fine, but Binding Blade gives you so many units that most class types and stat layouts are already represented pretty well. Aside from some tier-1 light magic users, it's pretty solid, and people have made some good suggestions on how to add such units without actually adding units. Giving Saul / Ellen light magic use at tier one would be kinda neat and give them a meaningful advantage over Clarine. You could also have Guinevere join with Miledy as a light mage or really any kind of light-magic using unit with a decent weapon rank.

I don't mind the large seize maps, because I like rescue chains, and I think that a remake shouldn't be too radically different from the original. They're updates, not new games, and should seek to smooth out edges that made a solid foundation a little too prickly. At least that's what I feel they should try to be. FE6 still plays pretty well so maybe that isn't a necessary philosophy for this game.

I also actually like the unique promotion items, because giving you a bunch of master seals takes away the strategic consideration of how you want to use your limited resources. Choosing whether you want a sage or a promoted staff user isn't an issue when you can just throw that Orion's Bolt you aren't using at the problem, and I personally think that makes the game less involved. Don't get me wrong, I'd love another Guiding Ring and Knight Crest before the secret shops, but even then, you have secret shops, and I think the fact that these items are desirable and not taken for granted is a good thing in my opinion.

***

Everyone agrees that supports should be easier to get. Deploying units on the same map a certain number of times sounds like the best suggestion to me. I'm not sure about removing the cap, though, partly for balance and partly for Roy. The point of the cap (at least what I see as the point, being someone who played FE6 after 7/8) is to make it so you don't hit two A supports and get two paired endings at once. I don't think anyone in FE6 has multiple romantic supports besides Roy, so maybe that's not an issue for them, but if you remove the support cap, you know...you don't want Roy to be a polygamist.

Speaking of Roy, it might be cool to let him promote in Chapter 16. Either that, or make it so his level cap is, like, 30 or something, and he gets a stat boost without technically promoting at the end of 21x. I feel like the stat he wants the most is that +1 move, though, and that's something you want as soon as possible, so the option to promote earlier seems advisable to me.

Base conversations are something I'm very fond of. I'd quite like it if keeping units alive to a certain point came with certain rewards, and it would allow for a little more screen time without stuffing the main plot full of a bunch of useless banter.

A free slot for Merlinus would be cool.

One quality of life improvement I'd like is the ability to use promotion items / stat boosters in the preparations screen.

A turnwheel would be pretty good, and hey, you could even use it to gamble on axes more.

***

 

Really though.

The biggest change FE6 needs it to nerf those darn throne bonuses. It's like only Rutger can hit half the bosses in the game.

 

***

As far as FE7 is concerned, I'm honestly quite alright with there being no further connections and the story remaining the same. Yeah, Hector dies, but his importance was retroactive anyway, and he still gets a whole game to be important, so it doesn't really bother me. I'd rather see his cousin / brother / Orrun or whatever in FE7 than I'd want to see more Hector in FE6. I know some people care about Lyn, but Lyn's kinda lame, and as has been said, you gotta account for multiple possible support endings. Honestly, all because it could be done doesn't mean it needs to be. Can you imagine two connected films where one goes out of its way to shoehorn in references to the other? That happens, and it generally works poorly.

That being said, I think it would be cool to have an FE6 / FE7 package. You boot up the game and automatically can play either. FE7 has the tutorial slain and a completed save file can be linked to a new game in FE6, which grants some little stat boosts here and there. You know, a couple base points, +10% to a growth depending on the parent, units that appear in both games getting a little more oomph depending on how well trained they were in FE7, etc.

***

I spent too long on this.

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6 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You know, I don't even think the weapon balance in FE6 is that bad. Yeah, it's not, like, brilliant, but it's honestly better than the norm, in my opinion. Swords are usually terrible because they're weak and have no 1-2 range, but FE6's lower lance / axe hit rates actually make swords useful because they most consistently hit things. It's not like axes are even completely useless, a bit inaccurate but they do well against lance users and pack significant power. I think the fact that many people like Gonzales, an axe-locked unit with terrible skill, demonstrates that lower hit rates aren't necessarily a bad thing.

I think that some class / unit balance is in order, and also that it's more of an issue than the weapon balance. Again, there are good axe users, I don't think axes are the whole problem. Some things I think would work well for class balance:

  • Thieves promoting to Rogues, using, I don't know, an Orion's Bolt. Rename it something Robin Hood themed and gives people like me who like thieves too much a use for spare Orion's Bolts.
  • Paladins should probably lose their axe use, they're already really good without it.
  • I think giving Generals sword access, and thus giving this generally kinda garbage class some weapon triangle control, would be pretty neat. Knights / Generals need buffing overall and a new weapon on promotion doesn't fix that, but I think it would be an appropriate compromise for their low movement. In addition to some worthwhile stats, maybe a sort of FE10 approach could be taken, where your three unpromoted armor knights each start with access to two of the three components of the weapon triangle.
    • Giving Bors swords in addition to lances, even E swords, would be a pretty significant buff considering all the axes in the early game
    • Barth is the heavy guy, so you'd probably give him axes, which at least don't face WTD on the Western Isles.
    • This would leave Wendy with Sword and Axes and no lances, which would be kinda neat. Swords would make her a lot easier to train, probably.
  • Your basic archers could maybe be a bit better stat-wise as well. Nomads have high move and Snipers actually good stats, but your Wolt and Dorothy are pretty easily left behind by them.

And unit / character balance would be a whole other can of worms, but if supports were easier to come by, it might help.

People have talked about adding characters, and that seems likely and also fine, but Binding Blade gives you so many units that most class types and stat layouts are already represented pretty well. Aside from some tier-1 light magic users, it's pretty solid, and people have made some good suggestions on how to add such units without actually adding units. Giving Saul / Ellen light magic use at tier one would be kinda neat and give them a meaningful advantage over Clarine. You could also have Guinevere join with Miledy as a light mage or really any kind of light-magic using unit with a decent weapon rank.

I don't mind the large seize maps, because I like rescue chains, and I think that a remake shouldn't be too radically different from the original. They're updates, not new games, and should seek to smooth out edges that made a solid foundation a little too prickly. At least that's what I feel they should try to be. FE6 still plays pretty well so maybe that isn't a necessary philosophy for this game.

I also actually like the unique promotion items, because giving you a bunch of master seals takes away the strategic consideration of how you want to use your limited resources. Choosing whether you want a sage or a promoted staff user isn't an issue when you can just throw that Orion's Bolt you aren't using at the problem, and I personally think that makes the game less involved. Don't get me wrong, I'd love another Guiding Ring and Knight Crest before the secret shops, but even then, you have secret shops, and I think the fact that these items are desirable and not taken for granted is a good thing in my opinion.

***

Everyone agrees that supports should be easier to get. Deploying units on the same map a certain number of times sounds like the best suggestion to me. I'm not sure about removing the cap, though, partly for balance and partly for Roy. The point of the cap (at least what I see as the point, being someone who played FE6 after 7/8) is to make it so you don't hit two A supports and get two paired endings at once. I don't think anyone in FE6 has multiple romantic supports besides Roy, so maybe that's not an issue for them, but if you remove the support cap, you know...you don't want Roy to be a polygamist.

Speaking of Roy, it might be cool to let him promote in Chapter 16. Either that, or make it so his level cap is, like, 30 or something, and he gets a stat boost without technically promoting at the end of 21x. I feel like the stat he wants the most is that +1 move, though, and that's something you want as soon as possible, so the option to promote earlier seems advisable to me.

Base conversations are something I'm very fond of. I'd quite like it if keeping units alive to a certain point came with certain rewards, and it would allow for a little more screen time without stuffing the main plot full of a bunch of useless banter.

A free slot for Merlinus would be cool.

One quality of life improvement I'd like is the ability to use promotion items / stat boosters in the preparations screen.

A turnwheel would be pretty good, and hey, you could even use it to gamble on axes more.

***

 

Really though.

The biggest change FE6 needs it to nerf those darn throne bonuses. It's like only Rutger can hit half the bosses in the game.

 

***

As far as FE7 is concerned, I'm honestly quite alright with there being no further connections and the story remaining the same. Yeah, Hector dies, but his importance was retroactive anyway, and he still gets a whole game to be important, so it doesn't really bother me. I'd rather see his cousin / brother / Orrun or whatever in FE7 than I'd want to see more Hector in FE6. I know some people care about Lyn, but Lyn's kinda lame, and as has been said, you gotta account for multiple possible support endings. Honestly, all because it could be done doesn't mean it needs to be. Can you imagine two connected films where one goes out of its way to shoehorn in references to the other? That happens, and it generally works poorly.

That being said, I think it would be cool to have an FE6 / FE7 package. You boot up the game and automatically can play either. FE7 has the tutorial slain and a completed save file can be linked to a new game in FE6, which grants some little stat boosts here and there. You know, a couple base points, +10% to a growth depending on the parent, units that appear in both games getting a little more oomph depending on how well trained they were in FE7, etc.

***

I spent too long on this.

Regarding multiple A supports, you can just do what Fares does and have an A+ support without a convo that determines the ending.

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The first thing is not to be on the Switch. If we got that, it would use the Three Houses engine, which looks like it will work far better for FE4 and FE5 than it will for FE6. We would need a game engine more reminiscent of the Gameboy engine.

Other than that, I would absolutely love it if we got 2D animated battles, similar to games like Project X Zone, though not being quite as drawn out. Enough attention here would sell the game and make it very fun without any modifications to gameplay or story.

The game could also implement many story concepts and characters from FE7. Make Lyn a recruitable character on the Sacae route. Let Lugh and Raigh find one or both of their parents in some secret corner of the world. Show Zephiel awakening Idunn at the Dragon's Gate as an ominous early game cutscene.

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Having a level 7 unpromoted unit who's one away from the Strength cap is funny. . .but not overly practical.  I'd like some stat retooling, so that certain units don't exist to cap-ram their stats.

Also, either promote Roy earlier, or have a few more maps between Roy's promotion and endgame.  It works from a story standpoint, but from a gameplay standpoint, it falls flat on its face.

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Move Roy's promotion to chapter 16, its a perfect fit in the story for something like this, where Roy is officially named commander of the joint armies after rescuing etruria. And from a gameplay standpoint, this is typically when Roy should be hitting level 20, or has done so not to long ago.

Subtle hints about the sacred weapon side chapters before the chapter starts, But don't make the answers to reaching said side chapter completely obvious. During my first playthrough, I was extremely annoyed that I failed the gaiden requirements for arcadia without even realizing it was a thing. Just the game saying "Nope, your screwed" without even slightly alerting me to something might happen if I speed through the chapter. I'm not asking to make it obvious, just a slight hint without completely blowing the surprise.

Make axes not useless. Seriously, most axe users in BB are pretty much useless due to how inaccurate the weapon type was as a whole.

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  • Generic Master Seals instead of class-specific ones.
  • Scrap the Con system, and either have a strength-based system like Tellius, or just get rid of weapon weight entirely.
  • Buff axes.
  • Roy promotes earlier.
  • Give Roy a makeover, as seen below
Spoiler

s7ssAYH.jpg

 

Edited by NinjaMonkey

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* Full voice acting, cutscenes, rearranged ost

* Give paired or solo endings to everyone in the epilogue, not just Roy 

* Improve the whole support system actually. Allow more paired and platonic convos for other characters besides Roy, don't limit the conversations, the S and A+ rank can be used to define which character will boost stats of the other

* A memory link that integrate FE7 story by adapting some details i depending of who Hector, Eliwood and other characters with playable children married,  showing some interaction between mother and child and giving them access to certain classes, making every possible pairing equally canon.  Supposing that FE7 will be remade first to follow the events of the story in chronological order 

* Branched promotions and skill system would be welcomed - not necessary though

* At least let thieves promote into a different class 

* simplify the promotion system 

 

Edited by Mylady

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47 minutes ago, Mylady said:

 

* Full voice acting, cutscenes, rearranged ost

* Give paired or solo endings to everyone in the final prologue , not just Roy 

* Improve the whole support system actually. Allow more paired and platonic convos for other characters besides Roy, don't limit the conversations, the S and A+ rank can be used to define which character will boost stats of the other

* A memory link that integrate FE7 story by adapting some details i depending of who Hector, Eliwood and other characters with playable children married,  showing some interaction between mother and child and giving them access to certain classes, making every possible pairing equally canon.  Supposing that FE7 will be remade first to follow the events of the story in chronological order 

* Branched promotions and skill system would be welcomed - not necessary though

* At least let thieves promote into a different class 

* simplify the promotion system 

 

Final prologue?

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57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Final prologue?

Oopps.

I meant final credits or whatever what that text telling the characters fates after the game events is called 

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9 hours ago, Mylady said:

Oopps.

I meant final credits or whatever what that text telling the characters fates after the game events is called 

We generally call that Character Endings. Although Epilogue (but certainly not Prologue!) would get the message across.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

We generally call that Character Endings. Although Epilogue (but certainly not Prologue!) would get the message across.

Yep I confused epilogue with prologue and was sleepy, fixed it. Plus English is not my first language - not that it explain a lot because the words are similar in my mother language lol 

 

Also forgot to mention, wouldn't mind if Guinivere was recruitable at some point 

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3 hours ago, Mylady said:

Yep I confused epilogue with prologue and was sleepy, fixed it. Plus English is not my first language - not that it explain a lot because the words are similar in my mother language lol 

 

Also forgot to mention, wouldn't mind if Guinivere was recruitable at some point 

Well I got you covered on that one.

 

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Way too many characters in that game, most completely unremarkable. I wouldn't mind actually cutting some to get others to stand out more and gain more depth, but I doubt this will happen, so hopefully they'll get complete new unique remakes.

- I would like a ton of supports, like in Awakening/Fates, with love and all, S giving more bonuses than just A.

- Reclassing system, like in Fates.

- Skills

- History presentation like in Shadows of Valentia.

- Roy being able to promote earlier

- Anna playable

- Maybe an Avatar, best friend of Roy or something, but still leaving him the protagonism.

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Honestly just tie up some more of the loose plot threads (why does Eliwood never mention to Roy that he fought a dragon, and why doesn't Hector have a stronger reaction to meeting Zephiel considering he had saved his life years prior?) and if you're going to include Mark then please don't turn it into a Kris situation

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On 5/14/2019 at 10:27 PM, Trif said:

why does Eliwood never mention to Roy that he fought a dragon, and why doesn't Hector have a stronger reaction to meeting Zephiel considering he had saved his life years prior?

The easy answer is that those events technically didn't exist yet.

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On 5/18/2019 at 11:21 PM, BBHood217 said:

The easy answer is that those events technically didn't exist yet.

Agreed, in truth that's really more of an FE7 problem than an FE6 one, but at this point it would be on the FE6 remake to resolve those holes IMO (or make it easy and do a joint remake)

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Since many people already covered things like balancing and such, here's what i want:

TL;DR : make Idoun more sympathetic. Since for me she's unique among FE final boss, because she was mind-raped also victim to the war

long version, here's how it works:

1. integrate memory-prism feature in SoV in Binding Blade, but make it canon to the story. Since in this game "Fire Emblem" is explicitly there as a thing , carried by Guinevere then given to Roy, but also used to retrieve Binding Blade. the Fire emblem can be used as a catalyst to access memories of Eight Divine Generals from their respective Divine weapon. We know from FE7 that Bramimond can bind Eliwood ancestor soul to Durandal, why not also their memories ?

2. Have the final memory prism the requirement to get best ending. the final memory will be General Hartmut's memory. heck, make it a paralogue battle if possible, depicting the final battle of Scouring. From Hasha no Tsurugi we know that Hartmut actually have a soft spot for dragon. this will expand the backstory a bit how hartmut dont want to kill her, but humanity hatred toward dragon wont let her live too. and also how he hoped that his descendant will free Idoun when the world already forgot that hatred. When Zephiel ascended the throne as king of Bern, he also gains knowledge to that memory also (via gaining Fire Emblem), hence the reason why he know Idoun location and how to free her. (ofc Jahn can show him the location, but only using Fire Emblem + Sword of Seal can free her. and no dragon can wield it)

there. basically make backstory from FE7 and spinoff manga integrated to FE6 backstory. Makes the final map theme a tearjerker moment

i had a wishful thinking that instead of Roy and Lilina childhood depiction in prologue, why not have the big battle at scouring be the prologue. afterall the lore stated that the Divine Weapon are so powerful it mess up ecosystem and make all dragon weak before their loss. a perfect time to introduce the game, since it will be a cake-walk battle with all divine weapon and weakened dragon-fodder enemy 😄. i know FE never explore the ancient war event even in FE: Three Houses, but still...

-p.s have guinevere playable and have support with roy + only retreat when defeated (essential character) . so Roy can hog all the beauties. LOL

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