General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

My (unmerged) Henriette can win almost all the time with 0-1 Flayns, so I think you're using her wrong.

For the record, my current default Light team is Dagr/Mila/Yuri/Flayn/Dedue/Henriette.

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The only unit my Henriette has any trouble with is Legendary Chrom, who is not common, and even then only if he is running Spd boosts, which is also not common. And I'm using zero Flayns because I don't have space for them. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong if you're having trouble with her.

For reference, my current main teams are:

• +1+10 Gustav, +10+10 Henriette, +4+0 Brave Eirika, +10+0 Eir, +10+5 Ulir, [bonus Mythic or +9+0 Mila]
• +1+10 Gustav, +10+10 Henriette, +4+0 Brave Eirika, +10+0 Ashera, +10+0 Naga, [bonus Mythic or +10+10 Altina]

Eirika is the wildcard that gets switched out depending on the opponent's team and what kind of support I need.

It's also worth noting that Ashera, Mila, and Eirika are the only units on these teams with stat-boosting support effects (I have no support skills on the Sacred Seal slots, either), so even a bare minimum of Drive support should be able to make up for any stat differences your Henriette has with mine (who also has Summoner Support and Ally Support with Gustav).

In the past month (ever since Hector's remix let me put Crafty Fighter on Henriette), I've lost a total of 1 unit due to inadequate tanking ability (someone's Brave Eirika overkilled Gustav by 1 damage through Svalinn Shield), 2 units (both Gustav) due to not having given Gustav Svalinn Shield yet to counter Brave Eirika, and 2 units due to player error when predicting enemy movement (both Eir), so I don't think Henriette is at all a problem.

I use my Save Tank team against defense teams similar to my own set up with very high mobility and Fatal Smoke/very high damage output. A defense team that only has one or the other can be handled by my default super tank team with Ike: Brave Mercenary since it scores high.

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's nowhere near the same positioning requirements. Your setup gets one unit fully buffed easily and two units with a specific formation. Cavalry Emblem has no trouble getting two to four units fully buffed with less strict positioning requirements due to redundancy.

For someone who complains so much about positioning on Bride Tharja, you sure have no problem considering these positioning requirements as "easy".

6/6/6/6 or higher is only relevant for Blade mages, you do not need 6/6/6/6 for the whole team, and I do not recommend a full team of Blade mages without some kind of Firesweeper, or at least another type of raw damage nuke. You only need one Blade mage on the team, and the rest of the nukes will do just fine with 6/6/0/0 or 7/7/0/0.

In PvE, the positioning requirements of a nuke with Azura: Vallite Songstress and two other Dancers/Singers is trivial compared to running four cavalry units and needing them to be adjacent to each other. You only need Azura: Vallite Songstress (or whoever else with Fortify/Tactic) to be adjacent to your nuke, and the second Dancer/Singer with Openings can be literally anywhere on the map. If you are running a third Dancer/Singer, you can also run double Openings with double Chills. In a double-nuke-double-Dancer/Singer set up, you can still run Openings and Tactics to fully buff the Blade mage and the other nuke while still having an easier positioning requirement overall for the entire team.

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Mystic Boost is functionally comparable to +3 Def/Res. That's just stats.

Mystic Boost alleviates the need for Aether, so certain units can triple or quadruple down on Dodge by running Pavise or something on their Special.

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Bride Tharja is comparable to Nyx, Brave Lysithea, and Azel. That's not "barely above average".

I would not call Nyx and Azel particularly amazing.

Brave Lysithea got guaranteed follow-up and Desperation. If being a raw damage nuke does not work out for her into the future, she can always go into the tank busting route with Windsweep/Watersweep and specialize against cavalry tanks.

Nyx is great on defense, but I do not see her damage reduction and damage boost to be relevant in player hands. Unlike melee nukes with access to Surge Sparrow and Flow Refresh to forgo Desperation, I do not think it is viable for ranged nukes to do so, and she does not even have access to defensive Specials. Azelle is just a stat ball and I do not see him being relevant anywhere except Arena since that is the only place where buffs get used consistently.

Edited October 7, 2021 by XRay

[Othin]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

I use my Save Tank team against defense teams similar to my own set up with very high mobility and Fatal Smoke/very high damage output. A defense team that only has one or the other can be handled by my default super tank team with Ike: Brave Mercenary since it scores high.

How often do you encounter teams that can beat both of those?

[Ice Dragon]

28 minutes ago, XRay said:

In PvE, the positioning requirements of a nuke with Azura: Vallite Songstress and two other Dancers/Singers is trivial compared to running four cavalry units and needing them to be adjacent to each other.

The positioning for Cavalry Emblem was already trivial, and it doesn't need expensive skills (like the Opening skills your argument keeps relying on) to pull off.

Cavalry already have the easiest time with positioning due to their higher movement range, and that has only gotten easier with the introduction of a cavalry dancer, cavalry units with Canto (like Legendary Ephraim, Brave Eirika, and Reginn), and Trace skills. Additionally, the fact that you have the redundancy of running 2 units with Hone Cavalry and 2 units with Fortify Cavalry gives you a lot of leeway with the actual positioning of your units, as any configuration with all 4 units in a chain other than an alternating configuration will result in the 2 units in the middle of the chain having +6/6/6/6.

Trying to represent Cavalry Emblem as awkward to use is entirely disingenuous.

 

31 minutes ago, XRay said:

Mystic Boost alleviates the need for Aether,

No, not really. Mystic Boost is literally just stats plus a little bit of extra wiggle room if your effective Def/Res (counting the effective boost from Mystic Boost) is higher than the opponent's Atk. That's literally all it is.

Edelgard gets great use out of it simply because her defenses are so bloody high that a massive number of units have Atk lower than her effective Def/Res, allowing Mystic Boost to reliably heal her instead of just mitigate damage. Also because having Wary Fighter means the effective boost to Def/Res isn't spread out over two hits.

 

33 minutes ago, XRay said:

by running Pavise or something on their Special.

We're talking about Julius and Morgan here. Pavise is irrelevant, as neither of them can use any of the defensive Specials.

Furthermore, Julius is always going to be ahead of Morgan by one stack of 40% damage reduction because Julius has one on his weapon, and neither of them have access to damage reduction on any of their passive skill slots.

 

47 minutes ago, XRay said:

I would not call Nyx and Azel particularly amazing.

You don't call most things particularly amazing, but "particularly amazing" isn't the same as "average". Nyx and Azel are nowhere near the level of "average".

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Nyx is great on defense, but I do not see her damage reduction and damage boost to be relevant in player hands. Unlike melee nukes with access to Surge Sparrow and Flow Refresh to forgo Desperation, I do not think it is viable for ranged nukes to do so, and she does not even have access to defensive Specials.

You do realize that you don't have to build exclusively towards a unit's exclusive effects if it comes at a detriment to the unit's general use.

Nyx can run Desperation just as well as any other unit can, and she doesn't need the damage reduction and damage boost from her weapon to compete with other units simply because her stats are so high. Those additional effects are the icing on top, not the cake itself. Compared to a Brave Lysithea running Lull Spd/Res, Nyx running Desperation is only behind by -1/-2 on rounds of combat where she isn't getting the damage boost.

[kradeelav]

Never even summoned or built up Julius, but upon testing his refine I'm shocked that he's performing "almost" as well as my dedicated magic-tank +10 DD4 F!Lyon as a staff counter. @_@  F!Lyon will still come in handy for nuking Shinon/Legendary Chrom on AR-D maps, but it'll be nice to have Julius for the other season for pesky cavlines. 

Sacrificing w!Altina for Unity + NCD was so worth it. :D  already maxed out her HM so I was done with her.

 

[Othin]

30 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Edelgard gets great use out of it simply because her defenses are so bloody high that a massive number of units have Atk lower than her effective Def/Res, allowing Mystic Boost to reliably heal her instead of just mitigate damage. Also because having Wary Fighter means the effective boost to Def/Res isn't spread out over two hits.

It also synergises with her own first-combat damage reduction and healing, making it particularly hard to deal damage to her faster than she can heal it.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Othin said:

How often do you encounter teams that can beat both of those?

Generally the last one or two days in Vault of Heaven. I do not always see them as I try to save my rematches for the last day, but sometimes I get them on the second to last day, my rematch is a cav line on the last day, or I lost all my rematches (sometimes I only get one or two rematches) and I need to battle the normal way and I get matched with cav line there.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The positioning for Cavalry Emblem was already trivial, and it doesn't need expensive skills (like the Opening skills your argument keeps relying on) to pull off.

Cavalry already have the easiest time with positioning due to their higher movement range, and that has only gotten easier with the introduction of a cavalry dancer, cavalry units with Canto (like Legendary Ephraim, Brave Eirika, and Reginn), and Trace skills. Additionally, the fact that you have the redundancy of running 2 units with Hone Cavalry and 2 units with Fortify Cavalry gives you a lot of leeway with the actual positioning of your units, as any configuration with all 4 units in a chain other than an alternating configuration will result in the 2 units in the middle of the chain having +6/6/6/6.

Trying to represent Cavalry Emblem as awkward to use is entirely disingenuous.

Openings are cheap. Tatiana has Atk Opening for 20,000 Feathers. Erk has Spd Opening and it is available as a Sacred Seal. I would not use them if they were not cheap or easy to obtain. And with Openings, there is no need to worry about positioning at all. You only need one Dancer/Singer with Fortify to be adjacent to the nuke, and everyone else have much looser positioning requirements with Tactics, or none at all with Openings.

Cavalry buffs are not super hard to use, but they are no where as convenient as modern day buffs.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You don't call most things particularly amazing, but "particularly amazing" isn't the same as "average". Nyx and Azel are nowhere near the level of "average".

You do realize that you don't have to build exclusively towards a unit's exclusive effects if it comes at a detriment to the unit's general use.

Nyx can run Desperation just as well as any other unit can, and she doesn't need the damage reduction and damage boost from her weapon to compete with other units simply because her stats are so high. Those additional effects are the icing on top, not the cake itself. Compared to a Brave Lysithea running Lull Spd/Res, Nyx running Desperation is only behind by -1/-2 on rounds of combat where she isn't getting the damage boost.

Her stats are not high enough, and that is the issue with plain stat boosts. I would not be complaining about plain stat boosts if they are still competitive with skill effects today. Tharja +Spd with her Blade tome outclasses Nyx +Spd, even if Nyx is at +10+10 and Tharja is at +0+0. If both are +Atk, then Tharja just needs +1+0 to beat Nyx at +10+10. We are talking about a launch unit that is like almost four years old with a two year old Refine outclassing last generation's nuke that is only a few months old. For stat boosts to really matter, they have to be absurdly high like Blade tomes to be competitive with skill effects.

Lysithea: Earnest Seeker also outclasses Nyx because guaranteed follow-up essentially gives her infinite Spd. Even if I run Watersweep to slow her down, she still outclasses Nyx. A normal player would either stick with Lull Spd/Res or run Special Spiral to spam Moonbow/Luna/Ruptured Sky.

Challenger List: Challengers at 1 HP. Tharja +Spd at +0+0, Tharja +Atk at +1+0, all other challengers at +10+10. Hard List enemies at +10. Both sides with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs.

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Nyx (5*+10 +spd -hp)  
Weapon: Ginnungagap  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Tharja (5* +spd -hp)  
Weapon: Tharja's Hex  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Nyx (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Ginnungagap  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Tharja (5*+1 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Tharja's Hex  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Lysithea (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Dark Spikes T  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Lull Spd Res 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Lysithea (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Dark Spikes T  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Watersweep 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  

Nyx +Spd
331:35:9
Tharja +Spd
336:25:14
Nyx +Atk
344:24:7
Tharja +Atk
345:18:12
Lysithea Lull Spd/Res
373:1:1
Lysithea Watersweep
358:8:9

Plain stat boosts are fine to have, but I think they should be used as an additional way to address the stat differences between old units and new units, or as a way to help trigger skill effects. I do not think stat boosts should be given the same weight and treated as skill effects in and of themselves. For stat boosts to have the same impact as skill effects, they need to be absurdly high like Blade tomes. In my opinion, the game is past the point where plain stat boost should be given the same treatment as skill effects. 

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, XRay said:

Openings are cheap. Tatiana has Atk Opening for 20,000 Feathers. Erk has Spd Opening and it is available as a Sacred Seal. I would not use them if they were not cheap or easy to obtain. And with Openings, there is no need to worry about positioning at all. You only need one Dancer/Singer with Fortify to be adjacent to the nuke, and everyone else have much looser positioning requirements with Tactics, or none at all with Openings.

Cavalry buffs are not super hard to use, but they are no where as convenient as modern day buffs.

Oh, my bad. I confused Openings with Gaps.

However, both still have the same problem that they can only be reliably applied to one unit in the party unless you are very specific in your teambuilding, in which case you're guaranteed to be making a sacrifice on one of your attackers by passing up on a better build or a better unit. In your previous example, your other attacker isn't going to be getting the +6/6/0/0 or +7/7/0/0 if you're using Openings unless you're double dipping each stat.

Furthermore, you still have to deal with the fact that you need to glue two specific units to your +7/7 recipient because you're stuck with the adjacency requirement of Hone. That's already less convenient than running Cavalry Emblem because you only need to glue one unit to your attacker and you have your choice which of the other two units you keep adjacent each turn.

Bringing this back to the original point, tIer-4 Hone skills are not standard. They are far more expensive and far less convenient to use than the options to get +6 to all stats, which is why no one uses them and which is why it is still fair to say that there has been absolutely zero growth in the power of field buffs since the game's release. (Heck, before Skill Inheritance, running Jeigan and Gunter was a viable strategy simply because they had Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry to buff Cain, Abel, Peri, Cecilia, and later Reinhardt.)

 

5 hours ago, XRay said:

Challenger List: Challengers at 1 HP. Tharja +Spd at +0+0, Tharja +Atk at +1+0, all other challengers at +10+10. Hard List enemies at +10. Both sides with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs.

The Hard List became meaningless years ago, and the units on the list are horrendously outdated. Once the units you're comparing become strong enough, differences in performance come down only to how many units on the list have a specific counter to the builds you're comparing and how many of the few strongest opponents manage to barely be killed by each challenger.

Furthermore, the Spd ceiling on the Hard List is so low, that it will almost always favor Atk builds over Spd builds for fast units due to both builds outspeeding all but a few units, which is clearly not representative of actual performance where Spd is much more competitive.

In your list, only Lysithea's performance is differentiated against statistical noise, and even then, literally all it says is that she beats the 30 or so units that could beat the other challengers by denying their follow-ups. That's all that number says and nothing more.

Comparing modern units against the Hard List is like seeing who can kill the most ants with a spray bottle of Windex. You're so overpowered that the ants that survive each challenger do so by the sheer dumb luck of being in the right hiding place.

[XRay]

On 10/7/2021 at 9:25 PM, Ice Dragon said:

However, both still have the same problem that they can only be reliably applied to one unit in the party unless you are very specific in your teambuilding, in which case you're guaranteed to be making a sacrifice on one of your attackers by passing up on a better build or a better unit. In your previous example, your other attacker isn't going to be getting the +6/6/0/0 or +7/7/0/0 if you're using Openings unless you're double dipping each stat.

Furthermore, you still have to deal with the fact that you need to glue two specific units to your +7/7 recipient because you're stuck with the adjacency requirement of Hone. That's already less convenient than running Cavalry Emblem because you only need to glue one unit to your attacker and you have your choice which of the other two units you keep adjacent each turn.

I think it is much easier to glue two units together than three units together, especially if the Dancer/Singer is flying rather than cavalry.

On 10/7/2021 at 9:25 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Bringing this back to the original point, tIer-4 Hone skills are not standard. They are far more expensive and far less convenient to use than the options to get +6 to all stats, which is why no one uses them and which is why it is still fair to say that there has been absolutely zero growth in the power of field buffs since the game's release. (Heck, before Skill Inheritance, running Jeigan and Gunter was a viable strategy simply because they had Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry to buff Cain, Abel, Peri, Cecilia, and later Reinhardt.)

They are expensive, but player phase players will quickly reach a point where they do not have much else to spend on. After Azura: Vallite Songstress, the only meaningful game play thing left to spend Orbs on are just premium A skills for your nukes, and Special Spiral if you want Blazing nukes. While Dorothea: Twilit Harmony, Peony: Álfar Dream Duo, Leif: Destined Scions, maybe a few Firesweepers, and tier 4 Fortify skills are just icing on the cake, players having nothing else to spend on.

You do not need merges, and some strategies prefer no merges at all for getting into HP range quickly. Ruptured Sky performs about the same as Moonbow. Reposition, Desperation, and Savage Blow are super cheap.

On 10/7/2021 at 9:25 PM, Ice Dragon said:

The Hard List became meaningless years ago, and the units on the list are horrendously outdated. Once the units you're comparing become strong enough, differences in performance come down only to how many units on the list have a specific counter to the builds you're comparing and how many of the few strongest opponents manage to barely be killed by each challenger.

Here are the most asinine Far Save armor set ups against mages I can think of. I picked armors because they are the most difficult to kill as a group, and they are small in number compared to infantry, and I do not think most players have difficulty killing non armor units. Tharja +0+0 have the same performance as Nyx +10+10. As long as the nukes got full buffs, the only way I see Nyx beating Tharja is if most enemies run Distant Def 4 or something.

Challenger List: 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs; 1 HP.

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Nyx (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Ginnungagap  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Tharja (5* +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Tharja's Hex  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Tharja (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Tharja's Hex  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Lysithea (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Dark Spikes T  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Lull Spd Res 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Lysithea (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Dark Spikes T  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Watersweep 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  

Enemy List: 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs; two Res Mythics.

Spoiler

ENEMIES - CUSTOM LIST  
Hector (Brave) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Maltet  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Ostian Counter  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Edelgard (Brave) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Flower Hauteclere  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Black Eagle Rule  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
  
Edelgard (FW) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Twin-Crest Power  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Atk Res Ideal 4  
B: Armored Wall  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Mystic Boost 3  
  
Robin(M) (FH) (5*+10 +res)  
Weapon: Expiration  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Warding Breath  
B: Dragon Wall 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Gustav (LK) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Loyalist Axe  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
  
Surtr (PS) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Sea-Sear Lance  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
  
Idunn (FF) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Zephyr Breath  
Special: Iceberg  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Dragon Wall 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
  
Edelgard (FE) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Aymr  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
  
Faye (LG) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Courtly Bow+  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Distant Def 4  
B: Special Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
Upgrade Path: 4  
  
Nagi (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Ethereal Breath  
Special: Iceberg  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Dragon Wall 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Quick Riposte 3  
  
Hector (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Berserk Armads  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Hector (LA) (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Berserk Armads  
Special: Bonfire  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Arden (5*+10 +res -spd)  
Weapon: Arden's Blade  
Special: Aegis  
A: Distant Counter  
B: Slick Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Zelgius (5*+10 +res -hp)  
Weapon: Alondite  
Special: Black Luna  
A: Distant Def 4  
B: Crafty Fighter 3  
😄 AR Far Save 3  
S: Steady Breath  
Upgrade Path: 5  

Nyx:
3:11:0
Tharja +0+0
3:11:0
Tharja +10+0
6:8:0
Lysithea Lull Spd/Res
9:5:0
Lysithea Watersweep
3:8:3

Edited October 9, 2021 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

I think it is much easier to glue two units together than three units together, especially if the Dancer/Singer is flying rather than cavalry.

In neither situation are you gluing only two units together.

Your situation requires you to glue three specific units together. My situation requires me to glue two specific units together plus either of the other two remaining units. No matter how you spin it, the latter is easier.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

They are expensive, but player phase players will quickly reach a point where they do not have much else to spend on.

The average player is does not use player-phase units with the exclusion of everything else. Your "player-phase player" is a unicorn.

Expensive skills are still expensive. The lack of an opportunity cost doesn't change the actual cost to the player's wallet (and there will still be an opportunity cost regardless at least until the fodder unit reaches +10 because you can always merge for more stats and better scoring).

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Tharja +0+0 have the same performance as Nyx +10+10.

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Challenger List: 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs; 1 HP.

That's probably because Nyx loses the +6 Atk/Spd from her weapon when she drops below 25% HP. My analysis below puts Tharja pretty squarely below Nyx.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Here are the most asinine Far Save armor set ups against mages I can think of.

I see you haven't run into the most asinine Brave Hector set yet.

Here are my challengers:

With Moonbow + Brazen Atk/Spd 4 + Desperation 3 + Brazen Atk/Spd 3 with +6/6/6/6 at 1 HP:

+10+20 Tharja [+Spd]
+10+20 Bride Tharja [+Spd] (1 ally in range)
+10+10 Nyx [+Spd] (both 11 HP and 1 HP)
+10+10 Brave Lysithea [+Spd] (Lull Spd/Res 3 instead of Desperation 3)

With Moonbow + Atk/Spd Solo 4 + Desperation 3 + Atk/Spd Solo 3 with +6/6/6/6 at full HP:

+10+20 Tharja [+Spd]
+10+20 Bride Tharja [+Spd] (1 ally in range)
+10+10 Nyx [+Spd] (Null Follow-Up instead of Desperation 3)
+10+10 Nyx [+Spd] (Lull Spd/Res 3 instead of Desperation 3)
+10+10 Brave Lysithea [+Spd] (Lull Spd/Res 3 instead of Desperation 3)

And my enemies, all +6/6/6/6: the three most asinine Far Save units I've run into plus four Arena opponents I find annoying.

Mirabilis is the only common defense Res Mythic, so the Far Save units have one Def blessing (for HP) and one Res blessing. The Arena units have two Pair-Up blessings for HP:

Spoiler

+10+10 Valentine Henriette [+Res]
Unity Blooms+ [Res]
Iceberg
Distant Def 4
Crafty Fighter 3
A/R Far Save 3
Distant Def 3

+10+15 Brave Hector [+Res]
Maltet [unique]
Aegis
Ostian Counter
Shield Pulse 3
A/R Far Save 3
Steady Breath

+10+10 Brave Edelgard [+Res]
Flower Hauteclere
Ruptured Sky
Distant Counter
Black Eagle Rule
A/R Far Save 3
Distant Def 3

+10+5 Brave Marth [+Spd]
Genesis Falchion (25)
Shining Emblem
Distant Pressure
Spurn 3
[empty]
Atk/Spd Solo 3

+10+10 Brave Dimitri [+Spd]
Moon Gradivus
Ruptured Sky
Atk/Spd Solo 4
Blue Lion Rule
[empty]
Atk/Spd Solo 3

+10+10 Ninja Hana [+Spd]
Deck Swabber+ [Spd]
Ruptured Sky
Distant Pressure
Spurn 3
[empty]
Atk/Spd Solo 3

+10+15 Duo Alm [+Spd]
Scepter of Love
Lunar Flash
Distant Pressure
Spurn 3
[empty]
Atk/Spd Solo 3

+10+15 Duo Alm [+Spd]
Scepter of Love
Lunar Flash
Distant Pressure
Lull Atk/Spd 3
[empty]
Atk/Spd Solo 3

And the resulting match-ups, split by Far Save and Arena. Numbers in parentheses are HP remaining if positive or overkill if negative (counting the follow-up even if the opponent dies in 1 hit) on each opponent in the order they appear in the above list:

Spoiler

Tharja (1 HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 45, 5)
• 3:2:0 (-3, -7, 4, -19, 1)

Bride Tharja (1 HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 55, 22)
• 3:2:0 (-42, 5, -41, -63, 1)

Nyx (1 HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 58, 28)
• 2:3:0 (9, 7, -31, -47, 8 )

Nyx (11 HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 53, 20)
• 3:2:0 (-46, 3, -45, -63, 1)

Brave Lysithea (1 HP):

• 0:3:0 (56, 40, 11)
• 5:0:0 (-60, -7, -59, -77, -57)

 

Tharja (max HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 48, 5)
• 1:4:0 (9, 24, 11, -7, 5)

Bride Tharja (max HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 57, 33)
• 2:3:0 (8, 30, -45, -1, 5)

Nyx (max HP, Null):

• 0:0:3 (45*, 35*, 15*)
• 2:2:1 (6, 29, -65, -43, 5*)

Nyx (max HP, Lull):

• 0:3:0 (46, 47, 5)
• 4:1:0 (-58, 24, -80, -73, -71)

Brave Lysithea (max HP):

• 0:3:0 (60, 48, 24)
• 4:1:0 (-54, 25, -60, -71, -57)

Here are my rankings and analysis:

1 HP:

1. Brave Lysithea: Lysithea is the clear favorite at 1 HP, as is to be expected due to having Desperation built into her weapon, opening up her B slot for Lull Spd/Res, as well has having the best overall offenses at low HP. Her victory against Dimitri is very close, however.
2. Nyx (11 HP): Nyx only has very slim losses against Dimitri and Lull Alm.
3. Bride Tharja: Bride Tharja is comparable to Nyx, dealing only a handful of points of damage less at worst. Having an extra ally in range is enough to completely close the gap, though.
4. Tharja: Her margins of victory and loss are very slim, but she notably is the only one that loses to Hana due to Hana's Lull effect. It's worth noting that with an Atk Asset, she loses to Marth due to Spurn allowing him to survive with 2 HP and she still doesn't win against Hana or Lull Alm (the 1 HP is from Distant Pressure's recoil, so the margin is not actually that slim).
5. Nyx (1 HP): Losing 6 Atk and 6 Spd from her weapon effect sucks, and it shows. "Just stats" are pretty important when you're up against units with very similar Spd stats.

Max HP:

1. Nyx (Lull Spd/Res): Lull Nyx easily comes on top due to damage reduction and bonus damage from her weapon. Her only major drawback is the fact that she's functionally on a timer, but that's typically not an issue in the Arena and can be offloaded to a support unit or structure in Aether Raids. It's additionally worth noting that with Lull Atk/Spd, she is able to tank Marth's Shining Emblem and still pull out a win against him, and she also reduces the margin of her loss against Dimitri to only 2 HP, allowing her to survive his Ruptured Sky and pull out a win with a simple Drive Def buff from an ally.
2. Brave Lysithea: Lysithea has the same overall performance as Nyx, but deals less damage. It's worth noting that the reason why Lull Nyx and Lysithea are able to win against Marth is because Lull Res allows them to barely kill him in one hit and avoid being hit with Shining Emblem on the counterattack.
3. Nyx (Null): Null Nyx notably has zero losses against any of the Save tanks. She loses the kill against Marth due to her inability to kill him in one hit, and she loses the kill against Lull Alm because she is no longer able to out-speed him. However, unlike the units below, she doesn't die to Lunar Flash on the counterattack.
4. Bride Tharja: Only slightly worse performance compared to Null Nyx. She misses the double against Spurn Alm by 1 Spd, but still manages to barely kill him in one hit. The margins are less slim if you can get a second ally within range. Her only real deficiency compared to Null Nyx is the fact that she is unable to tank Lull Alm's counterattack.
5. Tharja: Tharja is largely comparable to Bride Tharja except for the fact that she loses to Hana due to Hana's weapon having a Lull effect that severely reduces Tharja's damage output.

So no, vanilla Tharja is nowhere near as good as you say she is, effectively placing last in each comparison.

Bride Tharja is comparable to Nyx with a low HP build, but has a notable advantage that her weapon doesn't turn off if her HP drops too low. At high HP, Bride Tharja is still relatively comparable to Nyx as long as she can avoid a lethal counterattack.

The entirety of Lysithea's success over Nyx at low HP is the fact that she has an open B slot and can run Lull Spd/Res. However, if Nyx is also running Lull Spd/Res, Lysithea is worse off until she first loses HP to activate her additional weapon effects.

It's not a surprise that none of them can break any of the Save tanks. Vanilla Tharja comes closest to taking out Edelgard, but Nyx with Lull Spd/Res also has a shot at it and only loses because Edelgard can attack twice.

Finally, Null Follow-Up Nyx doesn't die to Save tanks and deals the most damage back to them, which is a niche, but still notable, advantage over all of the others.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Your situation requires you to glue three specific units together. My situation requires me to glue two specific units together plus either of the other two remaining units. No matter how you spin it, the latter is easier.

In a nuke with triple Dancers/Singers set up, only the Dancer/Singer with Fortify Def 4 or Fortify Res 4 needs to stick to the nuke. The other two Dancers/Singers will be running Opening-Chill combo and can be placed anywhere on the map.

In a double nuke with double Dancers/Singers set up, the Dancer/Singer with Fortify Def 4 or Fortify Res 4 still needs to stick to the Blade mage. The other Dancer/Singer will be running Atk Tactic-Spd Tactic, and the two nukes can be arranged however you like within two spaces of the Tactics Dancer/Singer.

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

With Moonbow + Atk/Spd Solo 4 + Desperation 3 + Atk/Spd Solo 3 with +6/6/6/6 at full HP:

My main issue with this comparison is that it is only relevant in Arena due to the small number of enemies, and that is also assuming their teammates can pull their own weight too. Everywhere else, sustainability becomes an issue, and if that is the case, you might as well just optimize for low HP instead and go with Brazens. Unlike melee units, ranged units in general do not have enough access to skills like Surge Sparrow, Flow Refresh, Spurn, etc. to make high HP playstyle viable.

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's not a surprise that none of them can break any of the Save tanks. Vanilla Tharja comes closest to taking out Edelgard, but Nyx with Lull Spd/Res also has a shot at it and only loses because Edelgard can attack twice.

Finally, Null Follow-Up Nyx doesn't die to Save tanks and deals the most damage back to them, which is a niche, but still notable, advantage over all of the others.

Null Follow-Up Nyx can kill Edelgard: Adrestian Emperor and Hector: Brave Warrior with Blazing-Flashing Blade in two rounds of combat with Dancer/Singer support. Blazing functions as "Desperation" during the second round of combat.

Edited October 10, 2021 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

In a nuke with triple Dancers/Singers set up, only the Dancer/Singer with Fortify Def 4 or Fortify Res 4 needs to stick to the nuke. The other two Dancers/Singers will be running Opening-Chill combo and can be placed anywhere on the map.

In a double nuke with double Dancers/Singers set up, the Dancer/Singer with Fortify Def 4 or Fortify Res 4 still needs to stick to the Blade mage. The other Dancer/Singer will be running Atk Tactic-Spd Tactic, and the two nukes can be arranged however you like within two spaces of the Tactics Dancer/Singer.

On 10/7/2021 at 9:18 AM, XRay said:

If we apply the same positioning requirements as cavalry buffs, then 7/7/6/6 is easy to do with double Hones and double Tactics.

+7/7/6/6 is physically impossible with only 2 units permanently stuck together because even with 2 copies of Hone Atk 4 and 2 copies of Hone Spd 4, you still need 2 copies of Def Tactic and 2 copies of Res Tactic as Sacred Seals, which is not possible.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

My main issue with this comparison is that it is only relevant in Arena due to the small number of enemies, and that is also assuming their teammates can pull their own weight too. Everywhere else, sustainability becomes an issue, and if that is the case, you might as well just optimize for low HP instead and go with Brazens. Unlike melee units, ranged units in general do not have enough access to skills like Surge Sparrow, Flow Refresh, Spurn, etc. to make high HP playstyle viable.

Both of the Tharjas and Lysithea have a sustainable build, owing to the fact that I still gave the Tharjas Desperation and the fact that Lysithea has Desperation on her weapon. Nyx is the only one without a self-sustaining build, but the only "everywhere else" that really cares that much about sustain is Aether Raids, where you can offload sustain to a support unit like Flayn or Bride Fjorm.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Null Follow-Up Nyx can kill Edelgard: Adrestian Emperor and Hector: Brave Warrior with Blazing-Flashing Blade in two rounds of combat with Dancer/Singer support. Blazing functions as "Desperation" during the second round of combat.

My analysis wasn't "try different things until I got the results I wanted". I just made good general-use builds, threw them at enemies that I don't like dealing with, and took whatever results were handed back to me. No adjusting builds on either side after the fact.

My analysis was interested in how well these builds hold up against Save tanks, not in finding specific builds that can kill Save tanks.

[XRay]

13 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

+7/7/6/6 is physically impossible with only 2 units permanently stuck together because even with 2 copies of Hone Atk 4 and 2 copies of Hone Spd 4, you still need 2 copies of Def Tactic and 2 copies of Res Tactic as Sacred Seals, which is not possible.

6/6/7/6 or 6/6/6/7 are good enough for the first round of combat, and then Azura: Vallite Songstress can bump that up to 7/7/7/7 for the second round and beyond.

[Ice Dragon]

30 minutes ago, XRay said:

6/6/7/6 or 6/6/6/7 are good enough for the first round of combat, and then Azura: Vallite Songstress can bump that up to 7/7/7/7 for the second round and beyond.

If +6/6/7/6 is "good enough" to forgo getting +7/7/6/6 for the first round of combat, then that just supports my argument that +7 is not standard because the benefit is not significant enough to be worth running over +6 for the vast majority of players.

If you're willing to put up with +6/6/7/6 being "good enough", then +7 wasn't needed in the first place. What you put up with is what you stand for.

[Xenomata]

A new month is coming, as does a new batch of refines!

...wait hold up... Fanged Basilisko? Linus is getting a totally new weapon, despite already having a Prf weapon that itself can be refined! Well, you know what they say: Screw the rules, I have Grails.

As for the rest of the gang, Kaze will be getting his Kaze's Needle, Legendary Heroes Marth/Hector/Tiki will be receiving refined weapons (along with Marth and Tiki receiving the Remix treatment), Summer Tana will be the seasonal getting a refine for the month, and lastly two perhaps utterly forgotten units will be getting refines: Helbindi and Kliff.

[Jotari]

Just Legendary Tiki? Not fallen Tiki too? Since they pull the whole "these two units have literally the exact same weapon only with a different name" sctick with legendary and fallen Tiki. I'd like for then to get two different refines as I don't like units having the same weapon under a different name, especiallyin this case where its literally the same character. 

[Diovani Bressan]

41 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

...wait hold up... Fanged Basilisko? Linus is getting a totally new weapon, despite already having a Prf weapon that itself can be refined! Well, you know what they say: Screw the rules, I have Grails.

Linus getting a new weapon... maybe that's the solution of the Dire Thunder situation? Giving Olwen a new weapon, so they can have different effects.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Diovani Bressan

[Xenomata]

Some thoughts...

• Helbindi's base weapon grants +4 to Atk/Spd/Def/Res to himself and adjacent allies at the start of odd-numbered turns. Frankly, Wave skills are outdated, so I can see them going the same route as Fae's Prf weapon and letting him get +5 to all stats as long as he is near an ally. Maybe they could just give him Fae's Prf weapon minus the 2-range adaptive damage effect? Fae's refine is already pretty good, after all...
• Kliff's Sagittae boosts all of his stats by +5 as long as his foe's Atk is at least 5 points higher than his own. Since his base Atk is only 30, this was not a hard stat check to pass even if his default Fortress Def/Res 3 were changed, but it also led to his combat performance to suffer. With no other effects to his name, Kliff was left behind. I wonder, then... could they maybe give him similar effects to Dragon's Wrath, and maybe let the stat boost of Sagittae go even higher?
• Linus's base stats total at 42/37/33/32/19, compared to Raven's non-Resplendent total coming to 41/34/35/25/22. I could see why they would want to give Linus a new take on Basilisko, since the original's Life and Death refine made more sense for Raven.

21 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Linus getting a new weapon... maybe that's the solution of the Dire Thunder situation? Giving Olwen a new weapon, so they can have different effects.

That'd be one way to go about fixing Olwen, since she... frankly has no standout traits otherwise. Give her Speed Thunder, which has the Brave/Spd +4 Def/Res -4 effect from In the Moment weapons, and let that weapon have NFU as a refine effect.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Xenomata

[Rinco]

So, what if Tiki's refine compliments the buffs from her C Skill giving Atk and Spd buff to herself and allies? 
TBH, with her new B Skill the only thing she seems to be missing is special acceleration and, follow-up prevention and getting rid of one of her weaknesses. If she gets a good refine I think I'll finish merging her up by going after the last copies. In fact, I think I'll do that anyway.

[Othin]

Linus was already breaking the rules by being the only unit introduced with an already-refinable weapon, so I can see the reasoning here. I think Hector getting a refine means the refines have now caught up to all the heroes who've gotten remixed skills. Tiki getting Super Far Save is nice, means now I have a Far Save unit of every color but still only one Close Save. Far Save is stronger but I want to be able to run Close Save on Astra!

55 minutes ago, Rinco said:

So, what if Tiki's refine compliments the buffs from her C Skill giving Atk and Spd buff to herself and allies? 
TBH, with her new B Skill the only thing she seems to be missing is special acceleration and, follow-up prevention and getting rid of one of her weaknesses. If she gets a good refine I think I'll finish merging her up by going after the last copies. In fact, I think I'll do that anyway.

Her base A skill gives special acceleration, although Breath skills are a bit outdated now and she'd probably rather have a Guard effect.

[Rinco]

2 minutes ago, Othin said:

Her base A skill gives special acceleration, although Breath skills are a bit outdated now and she'd probably rather have a Guard effect.

LOL, I switched mine's A skill so long ago that I forgot she came with Fierce Breath.
I run DD4 on mine (I had a spare Lion King and needed a tier 4 skill for her), and now it will be more useful.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Linus getting a new weapon... maybe that's the solution of the Dire Thunder situation? Giving Olwen a new weapon, so they can have different effects.

 

They didn't do that for Camus and Hardin.

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

That'd be one way to go about fixing Olwen, since she... frankly has no standout traits otherwise. Give her Speed Thunder, which has the Brave/Spd +4 Def/Res -4 effect from In the Moment weapons, and let that weapon have NFU as a refine effect.

I wonder how the community would have viewed Olwen if she were the demote way back when and not Reinhardt. Because not only is Reinhardt just flat out better, but he's way easier to even get and merge. At least if Reinhardt had remained a 5* exclusive for a few years Olwen could have had the niche over him of being a more common unit to use and invest in.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Jotari

[LoneStar]

Lol at Thunder Armads getting refined before regular Armads like I thought.

This batch has a lot of characters that I would like to refine, but I can only do 3 max right now. Interesting that Tiki is getting Far Save, I thought she would give everyone Orders because "With Everyone".

So we have Owain now Kliff getting their refines, so Loki is probably next. Unfortunate for Aversa she'll have to wait 5-6 months. Also Surtr and Ophelia refines imminent.

[FlyingKitsune]

This is a pretty nice refine batch. With the L!Marth remix, I really hope he gets null panic for his attack speed at least, to go with his bonus doubler. If IS is feeling particularly chaotic however, L!Marth could get bonus tripler, which would be fun to play with.

[Ice Dragon]

Well, this is a huge batch. 3 regular units, 1 Grail unit, 1 seasonal unit, and 3 Legendary units.

Linus: Fanged Basilikos

This one is surprising, as Linus already has an exclusive weapon. It just happens to be shared by Raven with an effect that benefits Raven more.

Basilikos is just a Slaying Axe, and I expect Fanged Basilikos to have the same base effect. Linus's stats are more geared towards enemy phase, but his base kit leans towards player phase with Brazen Atk/Spd as his A skill. Honestly, I have no idea what they want to do with him, but it would be pretty cool if they gave him Distant Counter to reference the fact that he has a Hand Axe if you meet him in Cog of Destiny and a Tomahawk when you meet his Morph in the final chapter.

Fanged Basilikos in Japanese is "狂牙バシリコス" (kyōga Basilikos), "Mad Fang Basilikos", a reference to Linus's epithet, 狂犬 (kyōken), "Mad Dog".

Kaze: Kaze's Needle

Kaze's base weapon is Barb Shuriken, which is just a Slaying weapon. His stat spread gives him good Spd and Res, below-average Atk, and awful HP and Def, meaning he absolutely sucks at dealing with anything with Distant Counter.

Kaze's Needle in Japanese is "スズカゼの疾風針" (Suzukaze no shippūshin), "Suzukaze's Gale Needle". It's worth noting that Kaze's name in Japanese, "Suzukaze" means "cool breeze" (涼風), and it's also in his epithet, 涼風の忍 (suzukaze no shinobi?), "Ninja of the Cool Breeze".

I have no idea what they want to do to make Kaze usable. However, his weapon's Japanese name does coincidentally contain the first half of "疾風迅雷" (shippū-jinrai), meaning "with the speed of lightning" and literally translating as "quick wind and swift lightning", which is the Japanese name for Galeforce. I wonder if they'll lean into that and give him Canto (2).

Legendary Marth: Exalted Falchion

Currently has dragon-effective damage, Bonus Doubler 3, and a permanent +3 Spd. His remix is giving him Shining Emblem and upgrades Binding Shield to also grant its Sweep + Breaker effect against any opponent if he wins the natural Spd check.

His remix skills don't really give much of a hint for his refine, as Shining Emblem plays towards his existing Bonus Doubler effect, and Binding Shield II's effect is simply an upgrade of the existing condition.

As a Bonus Doubler unit, his biggest weakness is the fact that he is extremely vulnerable to Panic, and granting Null Panic to himself and allies within 2 spaces at the start of the turn if there is at least one ally in range, like Order's Restraint, would probably be the single most useful effect to give him. Anything after that is really just icing on top, but I certainly wouldn't say no to Null Follow-Up, Dodge, or a conditional Distant Counter.

Summer Tana: Fruit of Idunn

Currently has Guidance 2, Flier Guidance 2, and a permanent +3 Spd.

I definitely expect both Guidance effects to be upgraded to their tier 3 versions with no HP restriction. Since her weapon's base effect involves allies coming to her, it also makes sense for her weapon to get Joint Drive Atk and Joint Drive Spd. Tack on a 3-range Rein like Grimoire and maybe some more obligatory stats, and she's basically set.

Now, since Grimoire gave Halloween Nowi the ability to teleport within 2 spaces of allies within 2 spaces of her, I wonder if they'll do the same for Summer Tana and allow allies within 2 spaces of her to teleport to any space within 2 spaces of her (in which case, any Rein effect the weapon gets should be boosted to 4 range).

Kliff: Sagittae

Currently has a permanent +3 Def and boosts all stats by 5 if his Atk is no more than 5 points higher than his opponent's Atk.

Kliff's stat spread is awful. He has good Spd, but literally all of his other stats are mediocre at best. He's basically a fast vanilla Robin. His base skill set gives him Fortress Def/Res to boost his defenses and lower his Atk and Chill Spd to help him double.

Fuck if I know what they'll do to fix him. His defenses are only 39/39 with his weapon and default A skill equipped, which is not great considering that's with the A slot already used up, and his Atk only goes up to 47, which is complete shit (but it's still better than Robin's as long as Robin doesn't have an Atk-boosting A skill).

More stats? Null something-or-another?

Legendary Hector: Thunder Armads

Currently has a permanent +3 Def and prevents opponent's follow-up if the number of allies within 2 spaces is higher than the number of enemies within 2 spaces.

His remix gave him Crafty Fighter as an alternative to Vengeful Fighter and upgraded Ostia's Pulse to grant +6 Def/Res and Time's Pulse globally at the start of every turn as long as the Tactic condition is met.

First off, the unit comparison condition is definitely being replaced with a Unity condition.

Ostia's Pulse II now granting himself Time's Pulse counteracts the loss of Vengeful Fighter's Special charge rate boost for Bonfire or his default Draconic Aura, so there isn't really much we can guess at from the remix upgrades.

I'm guessing he'll get the defensive half of Null Follow-Up (like Hardy Fighter does) and possibly some other defensive boost (like Blue Lion Rule's variant of Dodge) along with the obligatory stat boost.

Helbindi: Byleistr

Currently has Odd Atk Wave 2, Odd Spd Wave 2, Odd Def Wave 2, and Odd Res Wave 2.

Wave skills have been made pretty much obsolete, so while they could upgrade all of the effects to their tier 3 versions, it would obviously be much better to just remove the turn restriction and make them Joint Hone effects instead, especially when we have Astram, a Grail unit, with a weapon that has a better conditional Joint Hone Spectrum.

Other than the upgrade to the base effect, all Helbindi really wants is a guaranteed follow-up, preferably on both phases. Maybe have the condition be that he has a bonus active to tie it into his base effect. Any other effects on top of that and obligatory stats is just icing.

Legendary Tiki: Divine Mist

Currently has dragon-effective damage and Distant Counter.

Her remix gives her Slick Fighter over her default Bold Fighter and Far Save as an additional effect to her exclusive C skill.

As I mentioned in the remix thread, Tiki's low Res is a huge liability to have with a Far Save build, which pretty much means that she'll almost certainly get some form of damage reduction to patch it up. On top of that, her low visible Res means that she'd get obliterated by AoE Specials, so I'm guessing she'll get Nagi's 80% damage reduction against them. Passive healing would also help, considering both of the other default Far Save units have it and Breath of Fog comes with Renewal.

Also as I mentioned in the remix thread, Slick Fighter is generally regarded to be inferior to Crafty Fighter because the Guard effect is so powerful for enemy-phase units. To encourage players to keep Slick Fighter instead of switching to Crafty Fighter, she's probably going to get a Guard effect on her weapon in the same way that Legendary Robin did when it was missing from her exclusive A skill.

Built-in Svalinn Shield would also be nice since she's just a kid in a poncho. Pretty please?

[Fire Emblem Fan]

No Canas this refine batch, huh. Hopefully the next one. But, I am looking forward to seeing what Legendary Marth and Hector get.