General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Fabulously Olivier]

Does it give her close counter against dragons or disable their distant counter?

Edited January 10, 2019 by Etheus

[Kaden]

33 minutes ago, redlight said:

Nah. That's just a part of mystic boost

Yeah, I get that and it's probably also there to future proof Naga, but some effects are very specific at what they do even if that is limiting or it makes it very easy for them to fall off like Tana's regular Vidofnir granting her Def+7 when attacked by axes, lances, and swords is great, but Close Defense and Safeguard were introduced that were more flexible or created possibility that a lance version of Safeguard could exist and would give the user Def+7 when attacked regardless of the attacker's range or weapon type.

1 hour ago, redlight said:

Tailtiu is possibly better Ishtar. Possibly. Basically wrath instead of cooldown trigger-1

I think Ishtar might be more consistent since Mjolnir has a Killer effect while Tome of Thoron requires Tailtiu to have >= 75% HP since it has Wrath 3. Tailtiu might be able to do more damage since Wrath's effect deals 10 true damage and she might be able to get more out of Special Spiral than Ishtar. With Ishtar's high speed and Mjolnir's Killer effect and Darting Blow 3, she could blitz people and activate Glimmer or Moonbow every round of combat or a 3 cooldown special if she runs Flashing/Heavy Blade. Desperation would help to ignore Distant Counter attacks when she's at <= 75% HP. Ishtar can use Special Spiral well, but Tailtiu could combine Wrath to deal even more damage with charged specials and Ophelia exists with her higher base attack and more flexible means to get her special charged on turn 1 by having mage allies instead or only relying on Infantry Pulse and/or Ostia's Pulse.

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Does it give her close counter against dragons or disable their distant counter?

It gives Julia a dragon-only Close Counter.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Kaden

[Hilda]

whats Tailtius refine? Aside from the built in wrath she gets?

EDIT: swift sparrow hmmm, well its good but getting her below 75% is gonna be a bitch

Edited January 10, 2019 by Hilda

[ILikeKirbys]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

whats Tailtius refine? Aside from the built in wrath she gets?

Darting Blow 3.

I'm really happy right now. Tailtiu finally got Wrath, Julia got just what she needed to get back into Dragonmurder plus Bracing Stance 2 to be better as a ranged tank if you still want her to do that, Deirdre got Dull Everything + permanent Null Adaptive Damage and RES-check-based All Stats +3, hell even Seliph got Miracle and ATK/DEF Bond 3 on his sword. Everyone got something that looks pretty cool today.

[Hilda]

11 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Darting Blow 3.

I'm really happy right now. Tailtiu finally got Wrath, Julia got just what she needed to get back into Dragonmurder plus Bracing Stance 2 to be better as a ranged tank if you still want her to do that, Deirdre got Dull Everything + permanent Null Adaptive Damage and RES-check-based All Stats +3, hell even Seliph got Miracle and ATK/DEF Bond 3 on his sword. Everyone got something that looks pretty cool today.

On the fence on Seliphs weapon. It looks interesting. Its clearly a melee Tyrifing and not a magical mitgating Tyrfing. I could see some interesting builds with it as a pure melee/armor/close combat killer.

Refined Tyrfing
A: Sturdy Impact
B: Mystic Boost
Seal: Brash Assault

Basicly he can never die on player phase because you can allways initiate on him (due to Mystic boost 6 HP recovery) and Sturdy Impact disables follow ups. So even if the oponnent survives he survives too because Sturdy Impact negates any follow ups. And then you can just wings of mercy him with a Dancer and restart the process again because he regained 6 HP fro Mystic boost after combat lol. The only one able to kill him would be SwordHardt. Not even Vantage can stop him

Edited January 10, 2019 by Hilda

[Kaden]

@Hilda, to build off of that, refined Tyfing's health check Miracle activates before regular, special Miracle according to this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/aeg2g5/refined_tyrfing_will_proc_before_miracle/. Double Miracle Seliph.

There was also an "infinite Miracle" build for Ares abusing Dark Mystletainn and Mystic Boost: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/a7p1z6/infinite_miracle_proc_ares_build_by_ねむねむた/. Maybe Leif can join in on their miraculous adventures someday.

There's also this theory build with Vengeance for Seliph: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/aeg5eh/seliphs_vengeance_a_build_using_his_new_prf_refine/.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Kaden

[Hilda]

2 minutes ago, Kaden said:

@Hilda, to build off of that, refined Tyfing's health check Miracle activates before regular, special Miracle according to this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/aeg2g5/refined_tyrfing_will_proc_before_miracle/. Double Miracle Seliph.

There was also an "infinite Miracle" build for Ares abusing Dark Mystletainn and Mystic Boost: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/a7p1z6/infinite_miracle_proc_ares_build_by_ねむねむた/. Maybe Leif can join in on their miraculous adventures someday.

actually disregard what i said. his new Tyrfing is crap. The Miracle only work if above 50% so all that mystic crap build with Brash assault became utter nonsense. Which makes this weapon kindah meh and garbage in my eyes, it doesnt even synergize well with Brash assault lol

[Kaden]

10 minutes ago, Hilda said:

it doesnt even synergize well with Brash assault lol

Seliph had a claim to being able to run Brash Assault really well since people figured Tyrfing would have gotten Brazen Def something. The effect it was given makes sense lore-wise since Tyrfing has Miracle and +10 Skill and Speed and +20 Resistance in Genealogy, but not all weapons were given effects based on their home game's effect. Triple Brazen Def/Res Seliph would have been obscenely bulky. A neutral Seliph would have 51 defense and 43 resistance when at <= 80% HP which would be 40 HP with a unique refinement. At half health, 25 HP, he'd also be able to follow-up with Brash Assault and good luck to his enemies getting through his defenses. He'd still have 76 total or 51x2 physical and 68 total or 47x2 magical bulk when half dead.

Whatever, I guess Alfonse, Bartre, regular Chrom with Sealed Falchion, paladin Chrom will be our bold and brash boys. With Bartre and Seliph receiving their new weapon or weapon refinement, Hinata is the last gen 1 unit with Brash Assault. Watch him not get a personal Ruby Sword, but a personal sword with Brazen Def/Res, Spd/Def, or even Atk/Res or Spd/Res.

[Hilda]

5 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Seliph had a claim to being able to run Brash Assault really well since people figured Tyrfing would have gotten Brazen Def something. The effect it was given makes sense lore-wise since Tyrfing has Miracle and +10 Skill and Speed and +20 Resistance in Genealogy, but not all weapons were given effects based on their home game's effect. Triple Brazen Def/Res Seliph would have been obscenely bulky. A neutral Seliph would have 51 defense and 43 resistance when at <= 80% HP which would be 40 HP with a unique refinement. At half health, 25 HP, he'd also be able to follow-up with Brash Assault and good luck to his enemies getting through his defenses. He'd still have 76 total or 51x2 physical and 68 total or 47x2 magical bulk when half dead.

Whatever, I guess Alfonse, Bartre, regular Chrom with Sealed Falchion, paladin Chrom will be our bold and brash boys. With Bartre and Seliph receiving their new weapon or weapon refinement, Hinata is the last gen 1 unit with Brash Assault. Watch him not get a personal Ruby Sword, but a personal sword with Brazen Def/Res, Spd/Def, or even Atk/Res or Spd/Res.

finishing a unit below 50% is quite easy no matter what. The fact that his new weapon basicly looses its validation below 50% and brash assault kicks in below 50% makes it not synergize well. This weapon would have been by far better and not utter crap when it would have the below 50% condition instead of the above 50% condition it has right now.

[Stroud]

Seliph really makes me think of waiting? Should Sigurd ever get a divine Tyrfing refine, could it be that Seliph also would get access to it? For now I play Seliph with Divine Tyrfing for some shenanigans. And I don't know if its worth changing. 
Most of the time I try to come up with something. Lore wise I read it above. And ingame I would also make use of it, because I use him around Julia anyway.

Deirdre has already been used in AR and I am really happy about her. Just need to pull for a better Deirdre soon. And I could try to get her to +10 while I am at it.

Instead of using the Dew for Seliph I could also think about upgrading Julias Tome all they way. And have a second Divine Naga refine user...But I will user her less as long as Seliph has no solid option, or I come up with something. Maybe there is a skill they will add in future which has some sync with it...

Edited January 10, 2019 by Stroud

[Diovani Bressan]

I am going with Tailtiu's weapon and refinement. I don't have any of the Naga Tome users, but their refinements are great, as well Seliph's refinement. The Miracle effect, with a Bond Skill, is great for him. Basically he cannot be killed so easily if he has full HP, but he needs a auto-healing skill (Renewal, Mystic Boost or Aether) or have a healer on the team.

[bottlegnomes]

Whelp, guess I'll be waiting for Legendary Seliph ha to make him worth a damn *sigh*. At least everyone else got something.

Julia looks fun as hell and getting her both Naga upgrades since I don't have Dierdre is next on my refinements list. Dragons will die by the score.

Tailtiu will take some finagling to get her ideal build it seems, but she can be very solid. Keeping her alive to get the HP threshold will be a bit iffy, but at least once she's there, she'll have along the lines of 44-46 speed at neutral with whatever A skill. Run either Desperation/moonbow/atk+3 or desp/Luna or DA/flashing blade. Special Spiral and Luna or DA would be fun too, but harder to come by and might be harder to kickstart.

Edited January 10, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

11 hours ago, Hilda said:

finishing a unit below 50% is quite easy no matter what. The fact that his new weapon basicly looses its validation below 50% and brash assault kicks in below 50% makes it not synergize well. This weapon would have been by far better and not utter crap when it would have the below 50% condition instead of the above 50% condition it has right now.

I think you're missing the point of the weapon.

The base effect synergizes perfectly with Brash Assault. The biggest problem with Brash Assault was getting the unit safely into the HP threshold. With the new base effect, it's much easier to get to Brash Assault range without accidentally dying.

From the looks of it, the way the developers intend the weapon to be used is to allow Seliph to face tank a strong enemy to bring his HP down to 1 (he's slow, so it should be easy to get doubled for a lot of damage, and he has a lot of HP, so you can take some pretty big hits), then use Brash Assault to go on the offensive.

The only problem I see with his weapon, besides the fact that he'll have a terrible first round of combat, is the fact that Atk/Def Bond doesn't synergize with it since it helps his first round of combat where he should be baiting, but doesn't help as much while initiating combat.

 

8 hours ago, Stroud said:

Seliph really makes me think of waiting? Should Sigurd ever get a divine Tyrfing refine, could it be that Seliph also would get access to it?

Refines are given to weapons, not characters. If Divine Tyrfing gets the ability to be refined, every unit with access to the weapon will get the ability to refine it

New refine announcements involve three different types of updates that behave differently from each other:

1. A character gets a brand new weapon. This is specific to the character.
2. A weapon gets the ability to be refined. This is specific to the weapon.
3. A weapon gets the ability to be evolved. This is specific to the weapon.

The latter two always apply to any unit that has access to the weapon.

 

13 hours ago, Kaden said:

Did regular Naga's unique refinement just imply we might get dragon healers in the future?

Unless the localization team fucked up again, it specifically states that against dragon foes that it would disable adaptive damage and Wrathful Staff.

@redlight The localization team fucked up again. In Japanese, it does not disable Wrathful Staff because breath weapon users cannot get that effect. And even if they could, breath weapons already have their damage calculated like normal weapons, so disabling the effect wouldn't do anything anyways.

Dragon healers are also impossible because "dragon" and "healer" (I hate it when people use "healer" to refer to staffies for this exact reason) are both strictly weapon types, and it's impossible to have two different weapon types simultaneously.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[ILikeKirbys]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you're missing the point of the weapon.

The base effect synergizes perfectly with Brash Assault. The biggest problem with Brash Assault was getting the unit safely into the HP threshold. With the new base effect, it's much easier to get to Brash Assault range without accidentally dying.

From the looks of it, the way the developers intend the weapon to be used is to allow Seliph to face tank a strong enemy to bring his HP down to 1 (he's slow, so it should be easy to get doubled for a lot of damage, and he has a lot of HP, so you can take some pretty big hits), then use Brash Assault to go on the offensive.

Wouldn't that not work though, since enemies get to counterattack in between the first attack and the Brash Assault-provided second attack so Seliph would just die before reaching the second shot Brash Assault gives him?

Also, regarding Tailtiu's new Wrath tome:
Could Tailtiu run Sturdy Impact to safely initiate against physical DC/Bow/Dagger units to enter Wrath range, or is her HP/DEF too low for that to work?

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Wouldn't that not work though, since enemies get to counterattack in between the first attack and the Brash Assault-provided second attack so Seliph would just die before reaching the second shot Brash Assault gives him?

Also, regarding Tailtiu's new Wrath tome:
Could Tailtiu run Sturdy Impact to safely initiate against physical DC/Bow/Dagger units to enter Wrath range, or is her HP/DEF too low for that to work?

Desperation + Brash Assault. Which is another reason why his first round of combat is so screwed because he can't run Quick Riposte in the Sacred Seal slot.

Tailtiu has 56 physical bulk with a neutral nature and no merges. 66 physical bulk is more than enough to survive a single round of combat unless you're up against an instant Special build. With a +10 merge, that's 74 physical bulk when initiating with Sturdy Impact, which is plenty.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Stroud]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Refines are given to weapons, not characters. If Divine Tyrfing gets the ability to be refined, every unit with access to the weapon will get the ability to refine it

New refine announcements involve three different types of updates that behave differently from each other:

1. A character gets a brand new weapon. This is specific to the character.
2. A weapon gets the ability to be refined. This is specific to the weapon.
3. A weapon gets the ability to be evolved. This is specific to the weapon.

The latter two always apply to any unit that has access to the weapon.

True, Julia/Deirdre or better Naga is just proof enough. 

In that case I will wait a bit to see if Divine Tyrfing gets a refine.
I already invested Dew for Divine Tyrfing and I want to use dew sparingly if it is not something I am sure I can make good use of.

If next months refines are nothing for me I can think about it. 

[Corrobin]

I'm just planning on having Seliph be a more traditional tank. Thinking something like:

Special Refined Tyrfing

Reposition

Bonfire/Sol
Attack/Defense Bond

Vantage

Defense Tactic

Seal: Attack/Defense Bond

[Diovani Bressan]

So... is that true that Naga's refinement doesn't have the "negates wrathful staff" effect?

[RexBolt]

14 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

So... is that true that Naga's refinement doesn't have the "negates wrathful staff" effect?

Yeah it bad translation. Or rather bad "ctrl C ctrl V". There's nothing about staffs on the japanese version.

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

So... is that true that Naga's refinement doesn't have the "negates wrathful staff" effect?

(1) It's true, but (2) it's also completely irrelevant because breath weapon users cannot have the effect anyways because breath weapon users can't use Wrathful Staff or its effect anyways (because breath weapons already use normal damage calculation).

It's basically like if Ragnell had the extra effect "If unit's name is Arthur, grants +100 Atk during combat" which, whether or not it's true, is completely irrelevant because Arthur can't use the weapon.

[Diovani Bressan]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

(1) It's true, but (2) it's also completely irrelevant because breath weapon users cannot have the effect anyways because breath weapon users can't use Wrathful Staff or its effect anyways (because breath weapons already use normal damage calculation).

When I read the weapon description, I understood that the weapon effected dragons and staff users, but the CC effect would only work against Dragons, so basicaly I understood that Naga's refinement was Mystic Boost without the healing + CC against Dragons. I didn't think that the "negates Wrathful staff" effect was for dragons.

I got confused by the description after Pheonixmaster1 said that the Japanese description of refined Naga doesn't mention the "Negates Wrathful Staff" effect.

[Kaden]

This localization... I wonder what else they will mess up in the future.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Dragon healers are also impossible because "dragon" and "healer" (I hate it when people use "healer" to refer to staffies for this exact reason) are both strictly weapon types, and it's impossible to have two different weapon types simultaneously.

I'm thinking of healers as a class and in RPGs, most classes are restricted to one weapon type even if it's as dumb as healers have healer staves while wizards have wizard staves. The problem is that I keep forgetting dragons and will probably forget that beasts are classes and not movement types.

Whatever, I guess we'll get a small patch in a few days.

[Fabulously Olivier]

So what's the consensus on Julia's preferred weapon. Is Naga better for her with its CC against dragons or is Divine Naga better for its anti-buff and spectrum combat buffs?

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

So what's the consensus on Julia's preferred weapon. Is Naga better for her with its CC against dragons or is Divine Naga better for its anti-buff and spectrum combat buffs?

Naga is better as a dedicated dragon counter because you can run double Close Def or Close Def + Warding Stance or Close Def + Steady Stance 4 (for the Guard effect, or wait for Warding Stance 4). Divine Naga is better for general purpose.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[ILikeKirbys]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Desperation + Brash Assault. Which is another reason why his first round of combat is so screwed because he can't run Quick Riposte in the Sacred Seal slot.

Tailtiu has 56 physical bulk with a neutral nature and no merges. 66 physical bulk is more than enough to survive a single round of combat unless you're up against an instant Special build. With a +10 merge, that's 76 physical bulk when initiating with Sturdy Impact, which is plenty.

Oh, right. I forgot about Desperation + Brash Assault.

So Tailtiu + Sturdy Impact is workable. Now I just have to hope that I somehow luck into multiple Tibarns when the next banner drops so I can give his A Skill to her while also having a Tibarn to keep... Although it’s not like I especially need Sturdy Impact, Sturdy Blow 2 would probably be sufficient for what I’m thinking of trying here since she only needs to survive getting hit once.

Thanks for the response.