Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Alastor15243]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Did Alm know Mycen wasn't his grandfather by blood? I'm not sure.

He very much did not know they weren't related until some time into the story. Allegedly being Mycen's blood grandson is what initially got him where he was in the Deliverance after all, and the reveal of otherwise was a big part of Clive questioning the decision later.

  

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, I find that jarring too, given how he rejected the idea of becoming King of Zofia at every turn.Just one of the reasons I think they should have suggested he was Lima's bastard to red herring the foreshadowing dumped down the player's throat at the start of Chapter 3. It give Alm some time to get used to the idea of a secret heritage and a responsibility to rule while still serving to make the twist work by turning expectations on their head.

Yeah, I have to agree with you that this would be a great plot point. Only issue is the implications of incest between Celica and Alm, and I question how interesting hearing Alm worry about that (which he inevitably would if he's in love with her) would be.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Jotari]

 

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Kings usually are known in the historical record by their first name, as are emperors, being nothing more than a king by another name or a king with greater real power or pretensions to power.

It is the case that sometimes, monarchs take names other than their birth ones.:

• Popes, starting with John II in 533 -birth name Mercurius- often took a new papal name, which over centuries gradually became the absolute norm.
• In China and Japan, the Emperor's actual name was verboten and they used "era names" instead.
  • So the Kangxi Emperor, looking it up, was the "Emperor of the Era of Health and Glory", Kangxi wasn't his actual name.
  • In Japan at least, changing the era name during the life of an emperor was not uncommon before Emperor Meiji, usually done for auspicious reasons. Historians stick to just one name in these cases.
• For another example, Chinggis (Genghis) Khan's birth name was Temujin. Chinggis Khan is a title that translates as "Universal Ruler".

Ultimately, it comes down to the culture, and sometimes the individual. I can't say I know every culture's preferences and the intricacies therein.

It occurs to me that by calling Alm "Rudolf II", the Emperor's name essentially becomes just the number of monarchs in the dynasty (and is at least one allusion in game to the fact that Rudolf came from a cadet family). Alm's child would likely be called Rudolf III and grandchild Rudolf IV and so on and so on until there's no heirs from the main line or the monarchy is over thrown. And while I don't think that's exactly how it's handled there it reminds me of how the Kings of Thailand are styled. Which is Rama+current number of the dynasty (they're currently on Rama X). Though Rama isn't the family name, it's just what they call the monarch, and bizarrely comes from a Hindu god even though it's a Buddhist majority country and the king by law must be a Buddhist.

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

He very much did not know they weren't related until some time into the story. Allegedly being Mycen's blood grandson is what initially got him where he was in the Deliverance after all, and the reveal of otherwise was a big part of Clive questioning the decision later.

 

The only logical conclusion is that Alm has been having doubts about his place in the world and lacking any sense of where he comes from, and the game just doesn't make this a relevant aspect of his character until it's already been resolved.

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 Yeah, I have to agree with you that this would be a great plot point. Only issue is the implications of incest between Celica and Alm, and I question how interesting hearing Alm worry about that (which he inevitably would if he's in love with her) would be.

Well that could be removed by just having Alm not know Celica is a princess. When does he even figure it out? He just says it during their dream convo in Celica's route, even though I don't think there're any further hints that made him think about it before that since he's had no contact with her. Closest would be the Sluice Gate opening which he just assumes is Celica's without any proof.

[Acacia Sgt]

There's historic precedent for names to become surnames or dynastic, so yeah, Rudolf being from a cadet branch rising to the throne means Rudolf becomes Alm's surname/dynasty. That said, since Berkut was Rudolf's nephew, would he had been Rudolf II, or Berkut I?

Also, this might mean there's some different system in Zofia. Since we jump from Zofia II to Lima I, and unlike with Rudolf, there's no mentions of a cadet branch taking the throne. But current Lima IV is referred to as Lima as if it was his first name too. So either he is Lima [Possible Middle Name] Lima, or they might follow a different system to apply regnal numbers.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There's historic precedent for names to become surnames or dynastic, so yeah, Rudolf being from a cadet branch rising to the throne means Rudolf becomes Alm's surname/dynasty. That said, since Berkut was Rudolf's nephew, would he had been Rudolf II, or Berkut I?

It's completely possible that Berkut's name is Berkut Seazas Rudolf and would also have been Rudolf II if he'd gained the throne. Though it's also possible he's the son of Rudolf's daughter and shares a different family name.

Quote

Also, this might mean there's some different system in Zofia. Since we jump from Zofia II to Lima I, and unlike with Rudolf, there's no mentions of a cadet branch taking the throne. But current Lima IV is referred to as Lima as if it was his first name too. So either he is Lima [Possible Middle Name] Lima, or they might follow a different system to apply regnal numbers.

Well bear in mind Rudolf I is just known as Rudolf to everyone, even his old friend Mycen, so monarchs just being known by their family name after ascending the throne could be pretty standard in both countries. In other words it's just as likely Lima IV's actual name is Anton Lima or something. By that token, I wonder if the rulers of Valentia would be publicly known as Rudolf II and Lima V post game. Valm allegedly being named after Alm would suggest otherwise.

All that being said, I think we're putting far more thought into it than the developers did. Especially since the whole Alpine Alm Rudolf thing was in Gaiden too (iirc).

Edited July 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It occurs to me that by calling Alm "Rudolf II", the Emperor's name essentially becomes just the number of monarchs in the dynasty (and is at least one allusion in game to the fact that Rudolf came from a cadet family). Alm's child would likely be called Rudolf III and grandchild Rudolf IV and so on and so on until there's no heirs from the main line or the monarchy is over thrown. And while I don't think that's exactly how it's handled there it reminds me of how the Kings of Thailand are styled. Which is Rama+current number of the dynasty (they're currently on Rama X). Though Rama isn't the family name, it's just what they call the monarch, and bizarrely comes from a Hindu god even though it's a Buddhist majority country and the king by law must be a Buddhist.

Cambodia -also in Southeast Asia as you ought to be well aware- was predominantly Hindu under the Khmer Empire until the 1200s AD. Although Khmer's monarchs predominantly patronized Hinduism, they would take all the blessings they could get, and that included Buddhist ones. Jayavarman VII was notable as a Buddhist ruler in a dynasty that was hitherto Hindu, and would remain so for some time afterwards (JV-VII was specifically a Mahayana man, not the Theravada Buddhism now associated with the Southeast Asia).

What I'm saying is, since Cambodia is in the same region, and geographically closer to India than Cambodia, it doesn't surprise me some cultural elements of Hinduism would endure. Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhisms might be more open to borrowing Hindu beings, such as slipping the gods Brahma and Bhairava into the faith, but Theravada has some cultural room to give.

 

23 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There's historic precedent for names to become surnames or dynastic, so yeah, Rudolf being from a cadet branch rising to the throne means Rudolf becomes Alm's surname/dynasty.

Or outright royal/imperial titles- Caesar, the name that became the marker of Roman emperors, and much later German Kaisers, Russian Tsars, and even Ottomans used Keyser as a lesser title to rub it in Christian/European faces.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

This is not a remotely redeemable character. You have not shown a single shred of decency inside of this guy.

I... god, this is... what!?

Hey now. Depicting absolute shitheels of young men as redeemable on the basis of their bishonen looks is a proud series tradition dating back to FE1's Michaelis.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

There's also fatigue curing water, which is good, since we can't leave. Though the drop rates for food from pots probably mean we'd be able to manage with just shrine offerings, but still, good to have.

I'm not really a fan of these fountains, as they just turn fatigue into such a non-entity. You can already counteract it via foodstuffs or shrines, where those show up. It's not hard to make it so you never go into battle fatigued.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, and the fact that Alm's saying he's happy to know he has a cousin because he “didn't think [he] had any family in this world”... okay, first of all, I'm assuming he's talking about how he felt growing up, in which case, don't grandfathers count? And second of all, this is all the more reason why Alm should have asked about his mother.

I assume he meant in "the brief time since learning Mycen wasn't his biological grandfather". That said, discarding his adoptive family for a cruel manipulative biodad and a brooding bigoted cousin is such a losing trade.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

But apparently there's another correct route through those symbols, given that it sent me back to the basement, so I'm gonna look at the symbols again.

Gradivus didn't come from the "correct" route, but rather a "secret" route. You can totally miss it en route to the final battle.

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hey now. Depicting absolute shitheels of young men as redeemable on the basis of their bishonen looks is a proud series tradition dating back to FE1's Michaelis.

FE1's Michalis did not have looks.

Dude looks like a depressed hippie.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

FE1's Michalis did not have looks.

Dude looks like a depressed hippie.

I still maintain that Dark Dragon Michalis lost his virginity to his wyvern.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say it was more with MotE!Michalis. Unless Camus as Zeke then Sirius counts.

[Jotari]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say it was more with MotE!Michalis. Unless Camus as Zeke then Sirius counts.

Nah, Camus was never an "absolute shitheel of a young man". He had redeeming qualities.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say it was more with MotE!Michalis. Unless Camus as Zeke then Sirius counts.

He does not count, I will grant the guy at least that. Camus is a fundamentally righteous person with one dangerously idiotic fatal flaw, whereas Berkut is... just a writhing mass of flaws with a pretty face.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

42 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say it was more with MotE!Michalis. Unless Camus as Zeke then Sirius counts.

I was more thinking of his Shadow Dragon incarnation. Where Malledus is all "what a shame this war ruined the prospects of such fine people as Camus and Michaelis." Where the former was at least good enough to covertly save Nyna, while the latter killed his father and arranged his sister's kidnapping to coerce his other sister.

55 minutes ago, Jotari said:

FE1's Michalis did not have looks.

Dude looks like a depressed hippie.

You've got me there, but let's be real: everybody was ugly on the NES.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I was more thinking of his Shadow Dragon incarnation. Where Malledus is all "what a shame this war ruined the prospects of such fine people as Camus and Michaelis." Where the former was at least good enough to covertly save Nyna, while the latter killed his father and arranged his sister's kidnapping to coerce his other sister.

Well, Mystery of the Emblem did came first. Where we had Michalis being nursed back to health by Maria, then him going on a covert crusade to rescue her, culminating in sacrificing himself to snatch Starlight from Gharnef's grasp and delivering it to Marth. That was the game that began portraying Michalis in a sympathetic light burdened by regret and driven by familial love. The DS remakes then added to that.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I was more thinking of his Shadow Dragon incarnation. Where Malledus is all "what a shame this war ruined the prospects of such fine people as Camus and Michaelis." Where the former was at least good enough to covertly save Nyna, while the latter killed his father and arranged his sister's kidnapping to coerce his other sister.

You've got me there, but let's be real: everybody was ugly on the NES.

Not Tiki. She was freaking adorable on the NES

[Samz707]

Yeah I like Echoes but uh....the game crashes and burns, HARD near the end story-wise, it is a trainwreck.

You can at least headcannon that maybe Rinea's situation wasn't quite the same since she's kinda not a witch? (It's weird, she's listed as a witch in-game but you can fight enemies called "Vestal"  as random rare encounters and they actually look similar to Rinea.) So maybe her soul was actually bound to Berkut and not Duma or something, it feels like a poorly handled plot point regardless due to calling her a witch when she's clearly not actually a witch, it's a confusing point that feels not finished.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

I'm not really a fan of these fountains, as they just turn fatigue into such a non-entity. You can already counteract it via foodstuffs or shrines, where those show up. It's not hard to make it so you never go into battle fatigued.

Yeah Echoes just never really uses Fatigue to...really any potential at all really.

I wonder if maybe a future FE title had an actual time-limit (so if you let the game clock get too far, the villain succeeds in their plan and it's game over.), mix that with fatigue actually mattering (like resting for a day/eating food being the only way to restore it) and maybe it could be an interesting mechanic.

Too Bad Echoes does nothing like that and you can easily reset it by just leaving the dungeon easily in 99 percent of situations. (Fatigue should have been per-round of combat IMO, maybe allow to to regenerate a bit if a unit has "wait" as their action for a turn, so if say, a Unit fights off 4-5 enemies in one phase, they'll almost certainly be tired out and suffering stat-debuffs next phase.)

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Samz707

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm not really a fan of these fountains, as they just turn fatigue into such a non-entity. You can already counteract it via foodstuffs or shrines, where those show up. It's not hard to make it so you never go into battle fatigued.

Frankly fatigue is pointless and shouldn't exist, but alas, it does. Really, is there ever a point in the game where you risk running out of food due to fatigue? I'm at least glad they had the presence of mind to make sure their idiotic mechanic didn't soft-lock the player is all I'm saying.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, Mystery of the Emblem did came first. Where we had Michalis being nursed back to health by Maria, then him going on a covert crusade to rescue her, culminating in sacrificing himself to snatch Starlight from Gharnef's grasp and delivering it to Marth. That was the game that began portraying Michalis in a sympathetic light burdened by regret and driven by familial love. The DS remakes then added to that.

Michalis redeems himself in FE3/12, sure. But Malledus in FE11 is speaking of him in regards to the personality he's embodied thus far. In which, none of those positive traits are yet embodied. He's not yet the Michalis (I swear I keep thinking there's an 'e' in there) who gives Marth Starlight to defeat Gharnef; he's the Michalis who attempts to kill Marth before he can even reach Gharnef.

Also, it's mind-numbingly dumb how FE3 brings back all the notable villains who canonically died in its predecessor, but that's its own conversation.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Not Tiki. She was freaking adorable on the NES

Damn, you got me there. Hoodie Tiki is great.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Frankly fatigue is pointless and shouldn't exist, but alas, it does. Really, is there ever a point in the game where you risk running out of food due to fatigue? I'm at least glad they had the presence of mind to make sure their idiotic mechanic didn't soft-lock the player is all I'm saying.

I guess, but it turns from something that hypothetically has to be managed, to something that doesn't matter at all. Like, if the player "fatigues" themselves out, that means the dungeon "wins". They can still evacuate and try again.

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

I wonder if maybe a future FE title had an actual time-limit (so if you let the game clock get too far, the villain succeeds in their plan and it's game over.), mix that with fatigue actually mattering (like resting for a day/eating food being the only way to restore it) and maybe it could be an interesting mechanic.

Not a fan of an in-game time limit, but I could see some sort of in-game turn limit, or action limit (where each move on the world map is 1 action), as an interesting system.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I guess, but it turns from something that hypothetically has to be managed, to something that doesn't matter at all. Like, if the player "fatigues" themselves out, that means the dungeon "wins". They can still evacuate and try again.

Not here though. Not in the final dungeon. I'm stuck here until I win.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

19 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Not here though. Not in the final dungeon. I'm stuck here until I win.

...Heck, you're right, I forgot about that. They, uh, never explain why you can't return to Rigel Castle, do they?

[Alastor15243]

12 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...Heck, you're right, I forgot about that. They, uh, never explain why you can't return to Rigel Castle, do they?

Well they say that you can't, but no, not why.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

(It's weird, she's listed as a witch in-game but you can fight enemies called "Vestal"  as random rare encounters and they actually look similar to Rinea.

Vestals get their name presumably from the Vestal Virgins, a group of highly respected celibate women in classical Rome who devoted their lives to the Greco-Roman goddess Vesta (Hestia in Greek), goddess of the hearth and the home in general. Unlike some of the more famed deities of the Greco-Roman pantheon, Vesta wasn't scandalous, she embodied the good housewife, seen but not heard and keeping everything orderly and peaceful.

Although, I'd be inclined to called Rinea "Sati", Shiva's first wife, who couldn't stand her father's insulting of her husband to the point she wish she'd been born to someone else, and then threw herself into a nearby ceremonial fire. She was reborn as Parvati to another man and remarried Shiva later.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

So how did Gradivus go from Akaneia to Valentia? I distinctly remember Camus dropping Gradivus and from what I´ve seen Hardin uses it in FE:NM. And why was it hidden in Duma´s cave, when the complete stranger who used it initially is so damned skilled to become a general to the king - and i can think of at the very least another Cav-Enemy who could use a Lance.

Or just, fuck it, blast from the past, enjoy the ride?

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

So how did Gradivus go from Akaneia to Valentia? I distinctly remember Camus dropping Gradivus and from what I´ve seen Hardin uses it in FE:NM. And why was it hidden in Duma´s cave, when the complete stranger who used it initially is so damned skilled to become a general to the king - and i can think of at the very least another Cav-Enemy who could use a Lance.

Or just, fuck it, blast from the past, enjoy the ride?

It came with Camus. The White Wings noticed and brought it back in time for Hardin to use it. The "canonical" choice for Shadow Dragon is not defeating Camus and leaving him to disappear. As for why it's in the vault and not with Zeke, eh, I guess Rudolf took it as a present. None of this really needed to be explained imo (especially when you can freely forge your own Gradivus) but I guess it doesn't really detract from much by acknowledging it. In the original Gaiden it was doubtlessly meant to be just a reference and not the actual same weapon, just like Falchion and the Gharnef enemy in the final battle.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

Oh yes Michalis was just the worst. Not only did he murder his father and emotionally torture his sisters to join an evil dragon out to subjugate the world. But his entire rationale in doing so was that it would allow him to try out the worst evil plan in all of Fire Emblem. 

''Lol I'm gonna help Medeus destroy everyone that could possible stop him and then I'm going to die when I turn against Medeus and fight him all on my own!''

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

It came with Camus. The White Wings noticed and brought it back in time for Hardin to use it. The "canonical" choice for Shadow Dragon is not defeating Camus and leaving him to disappear. As for why it's in the vault and not with Zeke, eh, I guess Rudolf took it as a present. None of this really needed to be explained imo (especially when you can freely forge your own Gradivus) but I guess it doesn't really detract from much by acknowledging it. In the original Gaiden it was doubtlessly meant to be just a reference and not the actual same weapon, just like Falchion and the Gharnef enemy in the final battle.

In case of emergency, the Gradivus can be used as a flotation device.

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Oh yes Michalis was just the worst. Not only did he murder his father and emotionally torture his sisters to join an evil dragon out to subjugate the world. But his entire rationale in doing so was that it would allow him to try out the worst evil plan in all of Fire Emblem. 

''Lol I'm gonna help Medeus destroy everyone that could possible stop him and then I'm going to die when I turn against Medeus and fight him all on my own!''

Granted, it has some steep competition with Rudolf's harebrained scheme, and Garon's... actually, just about every plan anyone has in Fates.