So I FINALLY did Silver Snow...Wow...

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

You know, I was wondering what was bothering me so much about Silver Snow (aside from missing Gronder Field 2, which does have an acceptable explanation, but it's still a damn shame) and this sums it up very well. As you say, Seteth and Byleth fulfill the same role and purpose for other characters. Putting them together in the lead didn't really work that well because of this, which dragged the story of the route down by a lot.

Still, I like that the route gives Seteth and Flayn more spotlight, because they are actually my favorite characters in the game. But it is by far my least favorite route, as well for similar reasons (mostly the nonsensical Final Boss and no Gronder).

What if they made Flayn the Silver Snow Lord instead? She's much more flighty, which lends itself to playing off of Byleth, and mechanics-wise, it'd let us have an unique Healer Lord class without needing to find way to shoehorn Rhea in (going off the assumption that we're still rolling with the same-ish storyline for SS).

[Sid Starkiller]

13 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

What if they made Flayn the Silver Snow Lord instead? She's much more flighty, which lends itself to playing off of Byleth, and mechanics-wise, it'd let us have an unique Healer Lord class without needing to find way to shoehorn Rhea in (going off the assumption that we're still rolling with the same-ish storyline for SS).

I like that! She's clearly quite sheltered, not knowing much about modern Fodlan and how the Crest system screwed the people over, commoner and noble alike. She could have the opportunity to learn what's been going on, and while she would still think Edelgard's methods were wrong, she would come to understand her motives and institute class reform (which is what Byleth ends up doing).

[vanguard333]

8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

But it was delayed twice. Nintendo first insisted on a vague 2018 release date. E3 2018 trailer told us "spring 2019". February 2019 is where we got the actual release date. And those are just the delays we know about.

Thank you. I thought I remembered it being delayed twice. @omegaxis1 said it only got one delay, and I didn't bother fact-checking. Thanks. 

That actually reinforces my earlier point: how is it that after two delays and bringing in help that this game still feels like it could've used a little more time?

 

1 hour ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Someone mentioned Catherine and Cyril earlier, which reminded me that I forgot to address them. Just as it felt like they meant to strip all the BE from you and chickened out, it's really odd that they wouldn't let you recruit them normally and just have them leave with Flayn should you go CF. It severely handicaps them in SS because you have much less time to build up their skills, and Cyril in particular is forced to level as a Commoner, with his horrible growths.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Imagine, working SO hard to build up Flayn, Seteth, Cyril, and Catherine, only to choose Chapter 12, and all four of them ditching you.

Yeah; I agree with both of you. It's a really weird situation. If they had let you have all of them, it runs the risk of the player investing in them only to lose them, and if all of them had been withheld until chapter 12, it runs the risk of them being handicapped when you get them. It's a really odd situation that for some reason is making me picture a rock and a hard place. 

[DragonFlames]

2 hours ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

What if they made Flayn the Silver Snow Lord instead? She's much more flighty, which lends itself to playing off of Byleth, and mechanics-wise, it'd let us have an unique Healer Lord class without needing to find way to shoehorn Rhea in (going off the assumption that we're still rolling with the same-ish storyline for SS).

Hey, that's a really good idea, actually! It would keep Seteth the same, too, but it would make for a unique dynamic that the other houses have and Silver Snow doesn't.
Also, outside of CF Edelgard, I feel like she's M!Byleth's canon ship, anyway. From a pure story perspective, I mean.

[Geenoble]

I was actually fine with Seteth being the “lord” since he’s one of my favourite characters, but some other character should have that that major role (with seteth keeping all his screen time.) perhaps Ferdinand could have had an extended role, or the Flayn thing mentioned above.

 

i’m more interested about SS from a gameplay perspective though, and CF’s existence actively hurts the viability of 2 units. Catherine and Cyril suuuuuck so much due to the CF limitations and it seriously hurts them. No lord is bad, and while Seteth is good, you do not having time to get him running before chapter 13. The final chapter is a huge monstrosity too. I know it was developed first but VW feels like such a better route gameplay wise, with more maps and a way better final chapter.

Spoiler

Also can i just talk about how cool Nemesis design is like holy crap is it awesome. Best designed character since Cainheghis.

 

[Strullemia]

Yup, I agree with all of your points and would have much preferred to have a better VW route than the SS route. The most important SS points could've easily been added in VW anyway while improving the Almyra plot.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Strullemia

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

Yup, I agree with all of your points and would have much preferred to have a better VW route than the SS route. The most important SS points could've easily been added in VW anyway while improving the Almyra plot.

The sad part about the whole racism thing is some people I've met actually think that there's really not much racism at all. Which is just baffling, but apparently thinking taht Shamir and Cyril being in, or there being some "goods" from Morfis and some other lands, and the Officers Academy taking in any outsider means that Fodlan is definitely not closed off or xenophobic. 

[Strullemia]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The sad part about the whole racism thing is some people I've met actually think that there's really not much racism at all. Which is just baffling, but apparently thinking taht Shamir and Cyril being in, or there being some "goods" from Morfis and some other lands, and the Officers Academy taking in any outsider means that Fodlan is definitely not closed off or xenophobic. 

Fodlan is definitely xenophobic. There's the whole Duscur situation which wasn't handled as well as I would have liked by IS but they did make it clear in some of Dedue's supports that the "normal" Kingdom citizen despises people from Duscur and treats them badly just because of who they are.

But even in Hilda's Cyril C support we can see that "casual racism" is something that is certainly a lot more common then what the game might give off at first.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

A bunch of the Church NPCs are openly racist about Dedue and Cyril. Y'know, the guy who is not only one of their own, but also very close to Rhea—demonstrating just how generally accepted it is.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

The sad part about the whole racism thing is some people I've met actually think that there's really not much racism at all. Which is just baffling, but apparently thinking taht Shamir and Cyril being in, or there being some "goods" from Morfis and some other lands, and the Officers Academy taking in any outsider means that Fodlan is definitely not closed off or xenophobic. 

There's certainly xenophobia and racism there (as seen in Church NPCs, and a couple playable characters), but I wouldn't necessarily say Fódlan is totally closed off. We see characters from other lands, meaning they can come to Fódlan, but they're treated with suspicion. I have to wonder if any other areas of the continent have similar levels of ethnic diversity to Garreg Mach - does Enbarr have a neighborhood of immigrants from Brigid, or are there Albinean farmers in Margrave Gautier's territory, for instance?

[TheSilentChloey]

For me doing SS was just...horrible.  I agree that Rhea is creepy af, I can't stand her or what she stands for.

 

As for why I chose CF for my first run, it was because I couldn't do what Rhea demanded I do, that and I was willing to side with Edelgard since I knew what she was trying to achieve.

[Enryx25]

On 1/3/2020 at 3:58 AM, omegaxis1 said:

The only reason legit anyone should play the Silver Snow route is just to get Rhea's S support. Apart from that, it's silly to even bother with it. The other characters really don't develop so much, their character arcs is by far the weakest, it's a copy and paste.

Silver Snow WOULD have been better off had it been an original plot and story. Instead of having Seteth, have Rhea be like Julia. Suffer amnesia, and be the lord. She'd get her own class and such, and as she regains her memories little by little, it'd be a great way to explain the lore and missing pieces. 

Some people try to actually insist that Silver Snow is a great route, but it's obvious that liking Silver Snow and insisting that it's good is actually just an excuse and it's simply that they hate Edelgard and don't want to support her by any means.

Silver Snow is my favorite route in the game. Seteth and Flayn are amazing people and some of my favorite characters in the game, I also find Byleth interesting so the focus on these characters was the best part of the route imo. Rhea is also a well-written tragic, morally grey character.

I completely understand Edelgard but her actions are wrong. She's the definition of an Anti-Villain. Dimitri is ok and Claude is boring, so I don't mind the fact they're dead.

 

[Shrimpica]

2 hours ago, Enryx25 said:

Seteth and Flayn are amazing people and some of my favorite characters in the game

Basically why i enjoyed Silver Snow. Seteth and Flayn carry that route so hard.

 

20 hours ago, Sid Starkiller said:

while she would still think Edelgard's methods were wrong, she would come to understand her motives and institute class reform (which is what Byleth ends up doing).

Exactly that happens with Seteth though, who is basically the lord that then goes to help Byleth during the reign. Flayn herself people  get's along with them, but she stays out of politics even if you marry her.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Sentinel07]

I like Silver Snow, but I also think it does lack an identity of sorts.

Azure Moon, Verdant Wind, and Silver Snow all deal with the plot of saving Rhea. However, AM and VW are also driven by Dimitri and Claude's own goals which help to shape those routes. Silver Snow lacks that, and mostly just has the basic "Save Rhea" plot without a whole lot else.

Heck, you actually see less of Edelgard in Silver Snow compared to other routes due to Gronder Field Part 2 being skipped in that route. It would have at least helped if Seteth and Flayn being Byleth's immediate helpers gave more information on the Nabateans, but that really doesn't happen.

Heck, the Black Eagle students actually feel very marginalized in SS.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Sentinel07

[kamineko]

I think it's fine. The ending is kind of ridiculous, but it's nice having Seteth & Flayn plus the whole BE crew together

I feel like liking the BE team and liking E are two different questions. You can answer yes to one, neither, or both

Even though Seteth isn't a lord, he's the least messy lord

The instructors are kind of junk, but there's enough people on the squad anyway

I do wish Flayn made more stuff happen. In the grand scheme of things, Seteth isn't much older than her. I liked her character and wanted more

[Timlugia]

I think Gronder being excluded from Silver Snow was a very early decision:

Edelgard told Byleth on the reunion cutscene that "the next time we met, one of us will breath their last", since cutscene aren't usually made the last minute, the plan to not include Gronder must made fairly early in the development cycle.

 

On the other hand, In theory it's still possible to make Gronder working in Silver Snow, but with fairly unorthodox method:

Have Gronder play out as a flash back level, as recounted by survivors. Instead playing Resistance Army amd Byleth as usual, player gets control all Kingdom and Alliance units as one "anti Edelgard confederation" just for this level. So it would be Dimitri, Claude, Dedue, Gilbert, Judith, Rodrigue, Dominique, any students that haven't recruited and some generic npc (to stand in for students if recruited already) Instead of three way battle as in AM/VW, it would be just two sides since in Silver Snow there is no reason for three sides. Dimitri still dies as part of narrative, with Claude disappeared in the chaos.

This way not only player still gets to see Gronder, but it would be an unique narrative, and rare chance to control otherwise unplayable characters, without major redesign of narrative.

[Crysta]

Suddenly playing another team for one battle on a route that should focus on the characters you've been following up to that point would be very jarring and... strange. Like, Ghost Dimitri strange.

[Geenoble]

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Suddenly playing another team for one battle on a route that should focus on the characters you've been following up to that point would be very jarring and... strange. Like, Ghost Dimitri strange.

Ghost Dimitri was so weird and jarring. When i first saw it i thought it would go somewhere, like maybe he would appear at Enbarr like Dedue does in VW, but nope. It was all a dream. It’s basically a “Hey professor having fun? Why don’t you try out my route next, look at all the mysteries surrounding me, don’t you want answers?” Thing from the developers.

[Timlugia]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Suddenly playing another team for one battle on a route that should focus on the characters you've been following up to that point would be very jarring and... strange. Like, Ghost Dimitri strange.

It's unorthodox but not uncommon, quite a few games had similar methods, the most well known probably is sniper flashback mission from Modern Warfare where you played Price during a past event. It could work well if developed correctly

[kamineko]

Ghost Dimitry did make me want to try other routes (SS was my first), but unless I missed it nothing later clarified the vision... what a strange scene

[Crysta]

41 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

It's unorthodox but not uncommon, quite a few games had similar methods, the most well known probably is sniper flashback mission from Modern Warfare where you played Price during a past event. It could work well if developed correctly

Quite a few games that I imagine aren't very similar to Fire Emblem, though. This one, in particular, incentivizes investment in one group of characters over the other - and suddenly swapping would feel unnatural. Particularly if, you know, you're leading them to inevitable defeat.

I think having a dumb Gronder Field as is has a better chance of leaving a good impression. It's not like you're not routinely going up against seemingly insurmountable odds.

[Sid Starkiller]

9 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Have Gronder play out as a flash back level, as recounted by survivors. Instead playing Resistance Army amd Byleth as usual, player gets control all Kingdom and Alliance units as one "anti Edelgard confederation" just for this level. So it would be Dimitri, Claude, Dedue, Gilbert, Judith, Rodrigue, Dominique, any students that haven't recruited and some generic npc (to stand in for students if recruited already) Instead of three way battle as in AM/VW, it would be just two sides since in Silver Snow there is no reason for three sides. Dimitri still dies as part of narrative, with Claude disappeared in the chaos.

No. Gronder Field is a battle between three armies, that of the Kingdom, Empire, and Alliance. Just as adding the Church of Seiros to it wouldn't make sense, suddenly combining two of the armies into one wouldn't make sense. It would no longer be an echo of the Part 1 Gronder Field fight.

[omegaxis1]

17 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

No. Gronder Field is a battle between three armies, that of the Kingdom, Empire, and Alliance. Just as adding the Church of Seiros to it wouldn't make sense, suddenly combining two of the armies into one wouldn't make sense. It would no longer be an echo of the Part 1 Gronder Field fight.

To be honest, I'm glad that CF never had Gronder to try and echo. It's so bad. It makes utterly no sense in AM, and even in VW it's still silly.

[Geenoble]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

To be honest, I'm glad that CF never had Gronder to try and echo. It's so bad. It makes utterly no sense in AM, and even in VW it's still silly.

I don’t find it that weird in VW since it makes sense for both Edelgards to fight on the front lines and for Dimitri not to team with Claude, it is pretty dumb in AM however, but despite how he died, I have a personal fondness for Rodrigus sacrifice. It would have made more sense as a Fog of War map, since then it would make sense as why alliance/kingdom attacks you. They even mention before the map that the weather is looking foggy. There are also no main story fog maps besides the lonato one, which isn’t even a true fog map.

 

I am also glad that’s CF didn’t have Grondor, but not because it’s bad, but because it’s in grondor, and it would Ben really weird to suddenly have to retreat to grondor when Adrestia clearly has an advantage in the war. 

[Sid Starkiller]

You know what would've made a decent CF substitute for Gronder? Have Dimitri and Claude fight on the Church's side during its version of Ch12.