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Character(s) that you feel bad for because their perception in the fandom

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6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Sniper Mozu, Terror to all things that are Ninja and hard counter to Kitsune and Kotaro

Mozilla has more Super Bowl MVP’s than Brady, for sure.


 

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

I´d like to put in my vote for Orochi. But that´s more because there doesn´t seem to be any discussion about her in the fandom at all (though I was late to the party).

I also got late to the party, mate. I got Fates in mid 2017.

I only played ten or so chapters of Birthright when I first got the game, and honestly do not even remember recruiting Orochi. However, I have been reading forums and Reddit ever since, and, you are right, I have only sporadically seen Orochi been mentioned, and never in a positive light (unless you count messages about tits sizes.)

I get a similar feeling about Velouria; she is just ignored. And she has great growths and can turn into a monster (pun intended), but one only reads that “Wolfskin suck because they have no 1-2 range”, if anything. She is a solid front-liner or Berserker, and her statistics skyrocket if she inherits Aptitude. Yes, she joins too late naturally, but if one grinds supports and recruit her right before Chapter 15, she pays off greatly. The beast stones are broken, and she lands critical hits like crazy.

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16 hours ago, starburst said:

Mozilla has more Super Bowl MVP’s than Brady, for sure.

Had to look that one up, lol. Am not American so freedom football references go straight over my head.

 

16 hours ago, starburst said:

[….] I have been reading forums and Reddit ever since, and, you are right, I have only sporadically seen Orochi been mentioned, and never in a positive light [...]

A vast amount of criticism units face in fates amounts to barely anything more than “You are too slow, hahahahahahahahaha”, when Fates is the one game speed isn´t critical to a unit’s performance (unless you are Kaze). But a unit’s capabilities for Attack Stance as a whole is very much underrepresented in Fates discussion, I think.

 

16 hours ago, starburst said:

I get a similar feeling about Velouria; she is just ignored. And she has great growths and can turn into a monster (pun intended), but one only reads that “Wolfskin suck because they have no 1-2 range”, if anything. She is a solid front-liner or Berserker, and her statistics skyrocket if she inherits Aptitude. Yes, she joins too late naturally, but if one grinds supports and recruit her right before Chapter 15, she pays off greatly. The beast stones are broken, and she lands critical hits like crazy.

Compared to other child units Vel is kinda plain tough? Vel is a clingy wolf-girl. Compare that to Nina, Odin 2.0 etc. To me she just seems a lot more moderate in terms of her quirk. Not that I can really talk about FE characters.

And I mean, he who does not value a Shapeshifter that is either tanky, fast & strong or very fast & strong, is undeserving of their greatness. No weapon triangle is a 2-edged sword tho. I never actually reclassed Vel out of Wolskin (Camilla tends to be the Mom). I personally vastly prefer Wolfskin over watered down Ninjas Kitsune.

Edited by Imuabicus

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6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Had to look that one up, lol. Am not American so freedom football references go straight over my head.

I am not American either, but ignoring who Tom Brady is shows an incredible lack of general culture. 😈

 

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Compared to other child units Vel is kinda plain tough? You´ve got the outrage about Soleil, Ninas Yaoi fantasies, Ophelias  and Percy´s funkiness as well as Forrest. That´s pretty much it for children, except the occasional “OMFG IS [INSERT AWAKENING/FATES CHARACTER NAME] WTF?!?!?!?!” Vel on the other hand is just a clingy lass.

And I mean, he who does not value a Shapeshifter that is either tanky, fast & strong or very fast & strong, is undeserving of their greatness. No weapon triangle is a 2-edged sword tho. I never actually reclassed Vel out of Wolskin (Camilla tends to be the Mom tho). I also vastly prefer Wolfskin over watered down Ninjas Kitsune.

She is weird, though. Not super weird, but more-than-average weird. And you have a point there, for better or worse, her character does not stand out (which ironically suits her personality.)
Lately, I have been using Wolfskin more often (Velouria & Shigure), and they surpassed my expectations. Velouria is just broken; she can tank most enemy phases, even against Kitsune or the Generals with Beast Killers (within a proper formation, obviously), doubles everyone bar Master Ninjas, one-hits magicians/ maidens/ maids, and lands crits here, there and overt here... Honestly, there is not much to dislike. The "lack of 1-2 range" only shows lazy planning for a front liner, given that Conquest is heavily, almost exclusively Player-Phase based.

 

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

A vast amount of criticism units face in fates amounts to barely anything more than “You are too slow, hahahahahahahahaha”, when Fates is the one game speed isn´t critical to a unit’s performance (unless you are Kaze). But a unit’s capabilities for Attack Stance as a whole is very much underrepresented in Fates discussion, I think.

This might be true in Birthright, but it is not in Conquest. Mages at least have super early access to Lightning, but a lot, a great lot of enemies are fast. Late game, units need around 30 Speed to double reliably and over 20 Speed to not get doubled. It is trickier.

Edited by starburst

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13 hours ago, starburst said:

This might be true in Birthright, but it is not in Conquest. Mages at least have super early access to Lightning, but a lot, a great lot of enemies are fast. Late game, units need around 30 Speed to double reliably and over 20 Speed to not get doubled. It is trickier.

Yet Lightning has a drawback, no? (Also hinges on Ophelias paralogue/Armory after chapter 13 unless I´m forgetting smth) My main point about speed not being critical was regarding Attack Stance allowing for a “clean” kill, aka no debuffs, skill effects etc. I am well aware that speed has a defensive component to it, but not having a slow squishy in range of an enemy, I would almost consider to be part of (good) strategy.

Furthermore, “fast enemies” perhaps needs an explanation, no? (Though it´s been some time for me)

Ninjas. High Res, Def not so much. Swordmasters. Strong, fast, defensive stats aren´t that great either, no? Falcon/Kinshi Knights. Same deal as with Ninjas except MOAR MOVE HELICOPTERS and a weakness, no? Probably nohrian maps too, Heroes on Iagos map? Strong, tanky, not much Res? Maids too have more Res than Def, no? (Also, they should be called Charlotte-Fodder) Did I miss something? Don´t know about Sorcerers/Onmyoji.

Edited by Imuabicus
Got rid of the dumb

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2 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

My main point about speed not being critical was regarding Attack Stance allowing for a “clean” kill, aka no debuffs, skill effects etc. I am well aware that speed has a defensive component to it, but not having a slow squishy in range of an enemy, I would almost consider to be part of (good) strategy.

I find this interesting, and we could probably continue talking about it in the Fates section.

Briefly, I find Speed fundamental for Player-Phase Attacking units (which in my case account for 7 out of 10 units), because it guarantees kills. It is a key component of damage output. And one needs as much damage output as possible to keep marching forward when enemies outnumber you 3:1, and 4:1 on every late map.
Hold a line for one phase, then send the back liners to wipe the area, regroup and march, repeat.

Edited by starburst

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I've got two.

I wish that Camus didn't have to drown in the jokes aimed at the archetype he spawned. He's more rebellious than most of the characters that take after him (he freed the heiress to the Archanean throne from execution for goodness' sake!) and he also shows in his Zeke and Sirius personas his growth as a person to incorporate more than just blind, meaningless loyalty. By the end he sees that the best thing that he can do for himself and his country is to walk away, which I think is an incredibly powerful message that runs counter to the majority of the criticisms aimed at him.

 

Lachesis has been screwed over by her art in Cypher and Heroes into being a generic moeblob. That's all she is to new fans. She's a powerful and conflicted character who grows beyond just being in love with her half-brother. She is a genuine badass, and she doesn't get enough credit for being pretty well-written.

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On 2/11/2020 at 1:07 PM, Ottservia said:

Her Chrom support isn’t even all that bad though. It’s a fairly cute little romance story. It’s not all that complex or anything but it works for what it is and that’s really all it needed to be. 

Being honest I think her support with Chrom is quite lame. Why would anyone prefer it over their other supports? But Sumia is much more than one convo, she is adorable in her romances with Frederick, Robin, Gaius, Henry and her conversations with Cordelia and Sully. Other Awakening characters have eventual ridiculous pairing/supports as well.

 

On 2/12/2020 at 1:25 AM, Eurydice said:

I thought people hated it because it was ''all about pie than romance ?'' and then they turn around and ship her with Gaius lol 

But yes, her Chrom supports are pretty cute and simple, but not in a bad way, she just takes care of him like a old fashioned housewife would. 

But come on here, we all know the real reasons why people hate on Sumia, and it's not really because her supports with Chrom is "bad", she gets in the way of people's OTP.  So they shove the "pie lover" with the candy lover

 

To be fair I think it's understandable getting annoyed by having one character, path or ship shoved, while the others options offered by the game that you prefer don't get the same attention. If I were a f Robin x Chrom or shipper I would get pissed by that too. I just don't think this is a fair reason to hate Sumia , especially considering that she has other pairings and marrying her to Chrom is completely optional. 

Edited by Mylady

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On 2/10/2020 at 8:16 AM, LJwalhout said:

Edelgard, Rhea & Dimitri; The lack of nuance in discussions about these characters is what irritates me the most.

Wow yes. In fact, its enraging. 

 

I say Lorenz gets a bit too much undue hate. Makes me wonder if people just didnt bother reading his supports. His supports with Claude are some of the best ive seen in FE history. 

 

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On 2/17/2020 at 5:12 PM, starburst said:

Mozu, probably. Odin could be another example, but he is at least liked as a character (the reason why he was imported from Awakening to Fates.)

I understand why a turn-count challenge or a campaign focused on efficiency would ignore Mozu. The thing is that most campaigns and choices that I have seen here are already inefficient, by choice. People want to have fun and choose these or those units, regardless of the actual value of the chosen unit or class.
This might have been different when Conquest was released, but I got late to the party.

For a unit whose alternate class has a niche in Conquest, who gains 7-8 levels in her own chapter in fifteen or so minutes, who caps her relevant statistics relatively early (Strength, Speed and Skill, around L19/12-15), who has Weapon Triangle Advantage over most enemies, who is more accurate than any other unit, who is the quintessential boss killer... there is a lot of hate.

Being just about to finish the first run of Conquest where I actually bothered to use Mozu, I totally agree with this. She's disgustingly powerful, both because of her own stats and because Fates finally made Snipers good with their bonuses and bows in general being really strong. With a Killer Bow and good use of Attack Stance she can kill basically everything to the point where the only deadlier units I have are Elise and Ophelia with Lightning. As long as you're careful to get her as much EXP in her paralogue as possible she can pretty much immediately jump right into Archer and start slaughtering things to make up for the wasted time. She's also a fantastic Spear Master in Birthright and Revelations if you give her an A+ with Oboro.

On a character note, since I've been playing Conquest, Camilla. While I will acknowledge that her obsession with Corrin is...off-putting, her supports that don't revolve around that are actually really good. Takumi's is the exception; that whole chain was...ugh. Anyway, Corrin does get especially lovey-dovey treatment, but she's also very motherly and affectionate towards Leo, Elise, Beruka, and Selena. The ease with which she gets along with Kaze and Hinoka is also quite sweet. At the same time she's also noticeably affected by how awful Nohr is, reflected in her possessiveness and craving for affection. I won't say she's the greatest character, and most certainly not deserving of the ridiculous amount of attention she gets in Heroes, but overall she's much better than a lot of people give her credit for.

And on a satirical note, Conquest!Iago. Yes, he's an "evil for the sake of evil" scumbag who deserved far more than one death, but seeing how utterly transparently fake Corrin's "loyalty" is throughout the whole story I kind of like to imagine him constantly sighing over having to put up with such pathetic attempts at deception. Anyone with one working ear and a remotely functional sense of logic could see through it, so it must be incredibly exasperating for him to have to listen to Garon constantly brush off the incredibly obvious signs that Corrin's not loyal in the slightest.

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7 hours ago, KMT4ever said:

Being just about to finish the first run of Conquest where I actually bothered to use Mozu, I totally agree with this. She's disgustingly powerful, both because of her own stats and because Fates finally made Snipers good with their bonuses and bows in general being really strong. With a Killer Bow and good use of Attack Stance she can kill basically everything to the point where the only deadlier units I have are Elise and Ophelia with Lightning.

I know, right? Watching her reach green statistics by Level 12 is just funny. She devours silver statues as if they were cookies. She is so vicious that she shouts "You are strong" and "You saved me" just to mock everyone else. 😈
And you forgot to mention that one can count with one hand her misses during the entire campaign. Not after Certain Blow, but from Level 1 till Level 20/20. She just does not miss.

 

7 hours ago, KMT4ever said:

And on a satirical note, Conquest!Iago. Yes, he's an "evil for the sake of evil" scumbag who deserved far more than one death, but seeing how utterly transparently fake Corrin's "loyalty" is throughout the whole story I kind of like to imagine him constantly sighing over having to put up with such pathetic attempts at deception. Anyone with one working ear and a remotely functional sense of logic could see through it, so it must be incredibly exasperating for him to have to listen to Garon constantly brush off the incredibly obvious signs that Corrin's not loyal in the slightest.

I get you, mate. It is rather funny how he is the only one who sees through Cornflakes. If I could rewrite Conquest, Iago would be the true villain of the story. Respect. 😂

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On 2/24/2020 at 4:27 AM, Harb1ng3r said:

I wish that Camus didn't have to drown in the jokes aimed at the archetype he spawned. He's more rebellious than most of the characters that take after him (he freed the heiress to the Archanean throne from execution for goodness' sake!) and he also shows in his Zeke and Sirius personas his growth as a person to incorporate more than just blind, meaningless loyalty. By the end he sees that the best thing that he can do for himself and his country is to walk away, which I think is an incredibly powerful message that runs counter to the majority of the criticisms aimed at him.

Camus certainly gets some credit for being more independent and noble than the likes of Xander and Eldigan, and he certainly does some growing after his original game.

However Camus doesn't entirely escape the trappings of his archetype either. He's more rebellious but ultimately he still insists on a course that gets his beloved Grust subjugated by an evil dragon while still insisting he's being loyal to his country. 

Medeus is less cartoonishly evil than Shagaal or Garon but its  just as clear that he would bring Grust to ruin and Camus apparently doesn't find that a convincing reason to stop serving him. 

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On 2/28/2020 at 2:18 PM, Loki Laufeyson said:

I say Lorenz gets a bit too much undue hate. Makes me wonder if people just didnt bother reading his supports. His supports with Claude are some of the best ive seen in FE history.

I think everyone fixates too much on his combat performance/hair, because here's what I remember out of Lorenz:

- He makes Marianne smile in his B support (yes, pre-timeskip)
- His support with Manuela focuses on her singing, something she's still good at
- Ferdinand's support chain should've gone to A.  Instead of acting stupidly, they show off the potential of cross-country relations, over a cup of tea.
- Didn't have time for Dorothea's full chain, but I bet it would've been spectacular (she calls him out on his flaws)

It's like he makes everyone else better, just by existing.

6 hours ago, zarathusta said:

Camilla l do want to fuck her though.

Just because you CAN say it doesn't mean you SHOULD.  In other words, if you wouldn't say it IRL to a roomful of strangers, don't say it here.

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Lysithea. overpraised as a unit, and floods threads with the same memes which branch her popularity in the west alot, while her character draws more appeal in japan. As a character she gets generalized alot based on her early perception in the GD house instead of the whole, and similar to Ricken written off like all she talks about is being a kid and being disrespectful to everyone, when she's way more then that. I often see more hate towards her character then actual like more then people want to believe since hating her character feels popular then unpopular now and might as well be one of the top most vocally hated non lord characters. She gets perceived in a really strange way that leans both ways.

Cyril, he's not just all about Rhea.

Ignatz, dude just gets hate for almost no actual reason except probably the fact of just being a boy with anxiety, which seems to be the biggest offturn in media from what i'm seeing since those chars tend to get called losers, wimpy etc. Outside of this he's a really good character.




 

Edited by End of time

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5 hours ago, eclipse said:

I think everyone fixates too much on his combat performance/hair, because here's what I remember out of Lorenz:

The problem I had with Lorenz was largely due to the very bad first impression he gave -- pompous, full of himself, zero self-awareness, and yes, terrible hair -- combined with a weak combat performance that didn't give me any incentive to keep on using him to get past those first impressions. For some characters, their weak combat performance doesn't matter because I liked them. For others, their strong combat performance made me want to keep using them long enough to get past the bad first impressions. For Lorenz, I just didn't feel any motivaion to keep using him. It's a bad combination for a character to have. I did eventually use him enough to see more of his supports and I kinda like the guy now, but he was the last Three Houses character I warmed up to.

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5 hours ago, End of time said:

I often see more hate towards her character then actual like more then people want to believe since hating her character feels popular then unpopular now and might as well be one of the top most vocally hated non lord characters. She gets perceived in a really strange way that leans both ways.

That's a hell of an assumption to make.  Her character annoyed me almost immediately, and her supports have done nothing to change that.  I don't do the "it's popular to hate X" thing - I like it or I don't.

Just now, lenticular said:

The problem I had with Lorenz was largely due to the very bad first impression he gave -- pompous, full of himself, zero self-awareness, and yes, terrible hair -- combined with a weak combat performance that didn't give me any incentive to keep on using him to get past those first impressions. For some characters, their weak combat performance doesn't matter because I liked them. For others, their strong combat performance made me want to keep using them long enough to get past the bad first impressions. For Lorenz, I just didn't feel any motivaion to keep using him. It's a bad combination for a character to have. I did eventually use him enough to see more of his supports and I kinda like the guy now, but he was the last Three Houses character I warmed up to.

I slapped his own staff on him, and let him loose.  He took quite a bit of punishment, and could either snipe with magic or run up and Frozen Lance something in the face.  He's one of the few guys I take the time to recruit, because of this.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I slapped his own staff on him, and let him loose.  He took quite a bit of punishment, and could either snipe with magic or run up and Frozen Lance something in the face.  He's one of the few guys I take the time to recruit, because of this.

I'd dropped him from regular use long before I got to his paralogue in my first Golden Deer run, so I didn't get to experience those joys. He's perfectly usable when you build him right, and it was entirely my fault for not giving him a fair shake to start with, but bad first impressions can be a hell of a thing to overcome.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

That's a hell of an assumption to make.  Her character annoyed me almost immediately, and her supports have done nothing to change that.  I don't do the "it's popular to hate X" thing - I like it or I don't.

I slapped his own staff on him, and let him loose.  He took quite a bit of punishment, and could either snipe with magic or run up and Frozen Lance something in the face.  He's one of the few guys I take the time to recruit, because of this.

This wasnt specially for you if you actually got offended.

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2 minutes ago, End of time said:

This wasnt specially for you if you actually got offended.

It's a reminder that there's a lot of people out there, each with their own reasons for liking/disliking something.  Don't shove 'em into a box, 'cause that's when I have to untangle the inevitable mess.

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4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's a reminder that there's a lot of people out there, each with their own reasons for liking/disliking something.  Don't shove 'em into a box, 'cause that's when I have to untangle the inevitable mess.

Never said all do this, i said from what i personally seen. Never generalized everyone by shoving them into one group. 

Edited by End of time

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4 minutes ago, End of time said:

Never said all do this, i said from what i personally seen. Never generalized everyone by shoving them into one group. 

 

7 hours ago, End of time said:

Lysithea. overpraised as a unit, and floods threads with the same memes which branch her popularity in the west alot, while her character draws more appeal in japan. As a character she gets generalized alot based on her early perception in the GD house instead of the whole, and similar to Ricken written off like all she talks about is being a kid and being disrespectful to everyone, when she's way more then that. I often see more hate towards her character then actual like more then people want to believe since hating her character feels popular then unpopular now and might as well be one of the top most vocally hated non lord characters. She gets perceived in a really strange way that leans both ways.

Might want to reread what you wrote next time.

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

Might want to reread what you wrote next time.

How does this imply that i'm shoving everyone in the box by saying i recently see more hate then her being liked in the community to the point it's not really unpopular? 

Edited by End of time

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6 minutes ago, End of time said:

How does this imply that i'm shoving everyone in the box by saying i recently see more hate then her being liked in the community to the point it's not really unpopular? 

You're putting a reason in their mouth.  She's polarizing, but it's not up to you to attempt to justify why.

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8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You're putting a reason in their mouth.  She's polarizing, but it's not up to you to attempt to justify why.

That's the reasons i'm seeing in places on reddit and on twitter i'm just restating them here as what she gets flack for. It's a reason i'm seeing people hate her for. 
You may have a different reason but i wasn't specifically directing this at everyone, but from what i personally seen. Not putting a reason in their mouth but more like reusing the words already used when criticizing her. I still don't understand. Like if it came off that way i apologize but that wasn't the direction i was trying to state in my initial post.

Edited by End of time

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3 minutes ago, End of time said:

That's the reasons i'm seeing in places on reddit and on twitter i'm just restating them here as what she gets flack for. It's a reason i'm seeing people hate her for. 
You may have a different reason but i wasn't specifically directing this at everyone, but from what i personally seen. Not putting a reason in their mouth but more like reusing the words already used when criticizing her. I still don't understand.

I can dissect what you said, and why it's a problem via PM, because it's going to be a bit involved.

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