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What changes would you make to Binding Blade in a potential remake?

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12 minutes ago, Benice said:

 

Well, that was a thing added by FE7, and I'd personally rather just see that part removed from FE7, since it doesn't really add all that much IMO.

I guess that too.

They definitely need to do one of the two as it's definitely kinda odd how if it does mean the user dies in battle it's never mentioned in FE6. (I mean yeah I know FE7's a prequel but it would be odd if they remade both and they kept how it essentially kills the user in FE7 but never bring it up in an FE6 Remake.)

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4 hours ago, Samz707 said:

They definitely need to do one of the two as it's definitely kinda odd how if it does mean the user dies in battle it's never mentioned in FE6. (I mean yeah I know FE7's a prequel but it would be odd if they remade both and they kept how it essentially kills the user in FE7 but never bring it up in an FE6 Remake.)

I personally second that they drop it because that would mean either nobody used armads canonically in FE6 or they just survived because yes(there is no such thing as an alternate endtext if someone ever used it at all. And it would be a waste of recourses to add it).

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9 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Merlinus-Marcus S-rank since it's the one true canon paired ending from FE7.

Not go to that chapter yet ( assuming I end up there) what's wrong with it?

Yeah making Guinevere playable seems like an obvious one. (Apparently she was ment to be playable originally, at least it's a claim I've seen made online in a few places.)

I guess maybe acknowledge that Armads kinda makes the user kinda die in battle somehow if you give it to someone.

Well Guinevere is playable in the bast game already, it's just she's only available for Trial Maps. I don't see any evidence that she was ever considered for the main campaign though.

4 hours ago, German FE Nino said:

I personally second that they drop it because that would mean either nobody used armads canonically in FE6 or they just survived because yes(there is no such thing as an alternate endtext if someone ever used it at all. And it would be a waste of recourses to add it).

It is possible that whomever used it did die in battle after the game though, exactly like Hector. Unless the ending specifies exactly how they die there's no contradiction at all. Besides Durban doesn't say that anyone who wields Armads would die in battle. Just that Hector would if he took its power.

Edited by Jotari

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12 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I mean yeah I know FE7's a prequel but it would be odd if they remade both and they kept how it essentially kills the user in FE7 but never bring it up in an FE6 Remake.)

I agree that regardless of which direction they go, continuity would be nice.

Also, I would like for Fae to have access to multiple dragon/divine stones that can do some different things, (1-2 range, targets lower of foes' def or res, different parts of the magic triangle, etc.), and I'd like their stats to be shown, just 'cause it's kinda wack how the stats aren't shown in the base game.

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On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't know, Bors actually tanks quite well against the cavaliers, soldiers, and bow users of the early game. He may get doubled but a lot of these guys deal 2-3 damage if they even damage him at all. The fighters are what gives him trouble and having problems with one unit type is fine.

I wouldn't say that Bors tanks well against Cavaliers, but like you said, that's sort of off topic.

On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

First is personal difficulty. You can challenge yourself by using bad units, and that's fun for a lot of people.

Yeah, that's true. I've seen people say that they prefer playing through Sacred Stones without Seth to make the game more challenging, and I recently met someone that said the same thing about Marcus in FE7. FE games give you a lot of choices for units. Some people may prefer to only use the best options but you don't have to use only the best units, especially across multiple playthroughs. However...

On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Maybe units should all have niches over each other, but I don't know if that's strictly necessary. Probably a good idea. Wendy technically has a niche so...

I agree with this. I do not think that every unit needs to be equal. But I do think that every unit should have something to offer. It doesn't have to be a good enough something to make them as good as other units overall. As long as it gives them something unique or allows for a different playstyle or something. It could be a lot of different things. A different spread of stats, a unique ability, for certain classes it could be unusual weapon ranks such as Echidna specializing in Axes instead of Swords like most Heroes. I I do think that there should be a little bit of balance between units. I don't personally see any reason to have units that are too extreme in either direction like Seth or Wendy. What is Wendy's niche anyway? The Triangle Attack? That is an interesting ability, but its's so hard to surround an enemy with 3 Armor Knights and their 4 Move each. It's much more useful for Pegasus Knights. For the trainee units in Sacred Stones, I think their niche could be considered having more promotion choices than other units, which I think is enough, though I also don't see any reason why Amelia and Ewan don't join earlier. Some people enjoy raising weak units to a high level and watching them grow stronger, but wouldn't they have more fun if they had more time with the unit instead of them not joining until around half way through the game? I don't really see any benefit to them joining late. Anyway, I'm getting off track...

On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Challenge runs are also fun. Ironmans are a pretty common challenge run, and losing a unit you like and being stuck with a worse alternative creates an interesting scenario for the player.

Most definitely. I like playing ironmans myself. I don't understand why people complain that Cath is too weak and unbalanced. She is an extra Thief in case one of the others died. Chad especially can die very easily. The game didn't need to give us another one, we should be happy that it was nice enough to instead of complaining that she's too weak. Why does a Thief need to be strong anyway? This same type of situation can apply to a lot of units. decent to medicore units can become genuinely useful if some of your units die.

On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Second is expression. You can use a unit just because you like them, and not for any practical reason.

Yeah, I'm sure we all have a list of bad units that we like using. In fact, there's another topic about this exact thing.

On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Third is dominant strategy. The attempt to balance units can often erase their unique features.

  • Speed is the best stat, right? Not many units can be good without good speed. Movement is also very important.
  • Many people look at Armor Knights and see they're slow and have low move, and their idea to balance that is to remove those weaknesses. This is really lame and this design philosophy leads to all units being competent at the dominant strategy rather than unique or interesting or having niches or doing something cool or presenting a unique challenge to use them. People try to cut down on the differences in the important stats and the result is more homogeneous unit design.

I agree with this. Like I said earlier, I think that units should have something to offer, whether or not that something actually out weighs their weaknesses, like I mentioned with Bors. I don't think he should more Move, I think he should have more Def.It seems like such a simple concept to me. Take any strategy game. A unit with higher Move will need to be weaker than those with less. Armor Knights having particularly low Move should be super strong. My problem with Armor Knights is that they very often aren't much stronger than other units. Even if they were super strong, their low Move would likely prevent them from ever seeing any efficient play (with a few exceptions), because Movement allows for so much more efficient playstyles, but I would have no problem with Armour Knights if they were super strong to make up for their low Move, kind of like Oswin and Gatrie.

On 9/7/2020 at 8:09 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Fourth, it just won't work.

I don't know about this one. The games could surely be more balanced then they are. In regards to your Marcus example, yes, I do consider that a type of balance, same with Roy, but like you said, the whole point of your post was to explain why you don't care about that lol. Balance can mean a lot of things. I would say to not get caught up on only one specific definition of it. Units can be balanced in different ways, so the games may be more balanced then you think depending on how you look at it (obviously I'm not really talking to you here). As for fun being more important than balance, yes, but I don't see why those are necessarily mutually exclusive. I know, you just explained it in your post, but does that mean that you can't find a balanced game to be fun too? I think it can work either way. Especially with something as subjective as fun. If the argument is that spending too much time trying to balance the games better would take away from other aspects of them, since development resources including time are limited, then yeah, if that's true, then I agree, balance might not be worth it. 

Oh, I almost forgot to add something that you didn’t mention. bad units do not hurt the experience of people that don’t want to use them, but they’re there for the people that do enjoy using bad units. For people that don’t like bad units, there are plenty of good units to choose from. They can just ignore the bad units. I can’t take credit for this argument. Credit goes to @ping. He’s the one that mentioned it in an earlier thread.

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For the record, I just find the topic interesting to discuss and seeing other peoples’ thoughts about it. I’m really not invested in either side of the argument.

Edited by Whisky

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8 minutes ago, Whisky said:

A different spread of stats, a unique ability, for certain classes it could be unusual weapon ranks such as Echidna specializing in Axes instead of Swords like most Heroes.

I agree with you here. Stat spread is typically what I think of when I say niche but weapon ranks are another good reason, they're a great way to add unique flavor to promoted units. I feel Echidna would be less popular if she was some sort of female warrior, for instance.

8 minutes ago, Whisky said:

What is Wendy's niche anyway?

She's the "fast" armor knight in the same way Amelia is.

8 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Some people enjoy raising weak units to a high level and watching them grow stronger, but wouldn't they have more fun if they had more time with the unit instead of them not joining until around half way through the game? I don't really see any benefit to them joining late.

Weakness is relative to the enemy units. If the growth unit joins early on, then the obstacle you must overcome to make them good is much different.

8 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Even if they were super strong, their low Move would likely prevent them from ever seeing any efficient play (with a few exceptions), because Movement allows for so much more efficient playstyles, but I would have no problem with Armour Knights if they were super strong to make up for their low Move, kind of like Oswin and Gatrie.

I agree that armor knights could stand to be stronger, generally. Like you say though, you'll never make a 4 move unit a high placer on the tier list, not without changing how maps are designed at least (which I think is actually an alright idea, maybe making a rear guard actually important or something).

8 minutes ago, Whisky said:

As for fun being more important than balance, yes, but I don't see why those are necessarily mutually exclusive. I know, you just explained it in your post, but does that mean that you can't find a balanced game to be fun too? I think it can work either way. Especially with something as subjective as fun. If the argument is that spending too much time trying to balance the games better would take away from other aspects of them, since development resources including time are limited, then yeah, if that's true, then I agree, balance might not be worth it. 

I think it's less a question of development resources and more a question of mutually exclusive aims. Not talking specifically about some exclusivity between "fun" and "balance," but between balance and mechanics or elements which we've talked about which some people enjoy. You can't really have a unit you use just to make the game harder or to prove that you can make them work but also have the game be balanced. A dominant strategy is sure to arise, so you can't have diverse types of units but also strong balance, there will end up being some type of unit best suited to victory. Some people may enjoy a balanced roster, but I think games with unbalanced units are more fun. Not because balance and fun are mutually exclusive, but because balance is mutually exclusive with some of the things I enjoy about unbalanced games.

I should note that I'm referring to all this in the context of playing Fire Emblem, my opinions on balance change if you switch the paradigm to something like form changes in Mega Man RPGs.

8 minutes ago, Whisky said:

For the record, I just find the topic interesting to discuss and seeing other peoples’ thoughts about it. I’m really not invested in either side of the argument.

As arguments should be conducted.

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9 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I agree with you here. Stat spread is typically what I think of when I say niche but weapon ranks are another good reason, they're a great way to add unique flavor to promoted units. I feel Echidna would be less popular if she was some sort of female warrior, for instance.

people might like her because she would be the only female Warrior in the series, maybe. 

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She's the "fast" armor knight in the same way Amelia is.
 

Oh, if that’s what they were going for then I think she needs to start with high base Spd or much higher growth. But as you’ve been saying, people still like to use her as she is anyway, and maybe it is okay to have really bad units, so this is a moot point. She does become the fastest if trained to high level, you’re right about that.

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Weakness is relative to the enemy units. If the growth unit joins early on, then the obstacle you must overcome to make them good is much different.
 

I guess. Personally, I think them joining late rushes the growth process which makes it less satisfying, but that’s subjective. If people like how they are then that’s fine.

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I agree that armor knights could stand to be stronger, generally. Like you say though, you'll never make a 4 move unit a high placer on the tier list, not without changing how maps are designed at least (which I think is actually an alright idea, maybe making a rear guard actually important or something).
 

The changing maps idea is something I’ve played around with in my mind a lot. FE could be very different.. but that’s not how it is. I’ve imagined a much larger scale game where you control an entire army at a time across a very large map. I wonder if a game like that exists? The closest thing to it I can think of would be Ogre Battle I think.

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I think it's less a question of development resources and more a question of mutually exclusive aims. Not talking specifically about some exclusivity between "fun" and "balance," but between balance and mechanics or elements which we've talked about which some people enjoy. You can't really have a unit you use just to make the game harder or to prove that you can make them work but also have the game be balanced. A dominant strategy is sure to arise, so you can't have diverse types of units but also strong balance, there will end up being some type of unit best suited to victory. Some people may enjoy a balanced roster, but I think games with unbalanced units are more fun. Not because balance and fun are mutually exclusive, but because balance is mutually exclusive with some of the things I enjoy about unbalanced games.
 

I see. So this is more of a conclusion rather than a separate point? Yeah, you can find fun from imbalance like you pointed out earlier.

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I should note that I'm referring to all this in the context of playing Fire Emblem, my opinions on balance change if you switch the paradigm to something like form changes in Mega Man RPGs.
 

Are you talking about Megaman Battle Network? I love that series. I think the Style Changes are balanced pretty well though. Would you be interested in that discussion?

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As arguments should be conducted.

That’s true, but people rarely do. There isn’t even anything wrong with being biased, the issue is with people being unable to separate their bias from the discussion.

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9 hours ago, Whisky said:

people might like her because she would be the only female Warrior in the series, maybe.

True, true, but I think the fact that she's gender-atypical for her class and weapon-atypical for her class is like, a double token whammy of novelty appeal.

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

I guess. Personally, I think them joining late rushes the growth process which makes it less satisfying, but that’s subjective. If people like how they are then that’s fine.

Nothing says you couldn't have both. I like the villager mechanic in Echoes a lot.

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

The changing maps idea is something I’ve played around with in my mind a lot. FE could be very different.. but that’s not how it is. I’ve imagined a much larger scale game where you control an entire army at a time across a very large map. I wonder if a game like that exists? The closest thing to it I can think of would be Ogre Battle I think.

Genealogy of the Holy War. Sounds kind of like a 4X game.

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

I see. So this is more of a conclusion rather than a separate point? Yeah, you can find fun from imbalance like you pointed out earlier.

Pretty much. There are a lot of things to have fun with in video games but many of those things just don't get along, so you gotta pick and prioritize 'n stuff.

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

Are you talking about Megaman Battle Network? I love that series. I think the Style Changes are balanced pretty well though. Would you be interested in that discussion?

Yooooo Battle Network is the best game franchise of all time. I am always up to discuss Battle Network.

The Styles are balanced alright. The elements are all pretty comparable but I always saw Custom as the clear best. There are probably skilled people who get a lot of use out of Shield Style though. There's a lot of aspects to take into account there, like if you're talking single player or competitive and the time to get programs, enough for its own thread really.

I was actually talking more about Souls and Crosses than Styles, though. They're a lot more distinct than Styles (especially how Styles are in 3), and some are just so much better than others that you can't really build a viable strategy around more than a few. Even if you're really skilled, what are you supposed to do with Colonel Soul? It matters not only for competitive but also getting those sub-10 S-rank times.

I just got Star Force 3 last week, actually, and recently picked up serpent bearer noise. Worked pretty good with some wood-type illegal cards I got and Bushido. Kinda weird but kind of cool that it boosts Club Strong's card.

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

That’s true, but people rarely do. There isn’t even anything wrong with being biased, the issue is with people being unable to separate their bias from the discussion.

I think passion is fun in debates but you can't get a clouded head.

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4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

True, true, but I think the fact that she's gender-atypical for her class and weapon-atypical for her class is like, a double token whammy of novelty appeal.

True. Echidna is pretty cool.

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Nothing says you couldn't have both. I like the villager mechanic in Echoes a lot.

True. The majority of Villagers in Echoes join early though, with only one exception.

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Genealogy of the Holy War. Sounds kind of like a 4X game.
 

I haven’t gotten around to playing FE4-5 yet. I plan to soon. What is 4x?

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Pretty much. There are a lot of things to have fun with in video games but many of those things just don't get along, so you gotta pick and prioritize 'n stuff.
 

Which is why it’s nice to have a huge variety of games for people to choose from.

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Yooooo Battle Network is the best game franchise of all time. I am always up to discuss Battle Network.

Dude, seriously! It’s my favorite game franchise too! I replay through the series every few years or so.

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The Styles are balanced alright. The elements are all pretty comparable but I always saw Custom as the clear best. There are probably skilled people who get a lot of use out of Shield Style though. There's a lot of aspects to take into account there, like if you're talking single player or competitive and the time to get programs, enough for its own thread really.
 

There really is a lot to think about with the styles. Custom might be the best but personally my favorite is Shield. Guts is great too because it makes it easier to get S ranks. I think Team is the worst but it’s still fun to create Navi heavy folders with it, some of which can be very potent.

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I was actually talking more about Souls and Crosses than Styles, though. They're a lot more distinct than Styles (especially how Styles are in 3), and some are just so much better than others that you can't really build a viable strategy around more than a few. Even if you're really skilled, what are you supposed to do with Colonel Soul? It matters not only for competitive but also getting those sub-10 S-rank times.
 

Oh I see, yeah you might be right about that. I think there are at least a few Souls and Crosses that are competitive with each other. Some of them have clear situations that they are useful for. In my most recent playthrough of 5, I got a lot of use out of Napalm, Magnet, and Proto Souls. I’m not a fan of Meddy Soul. I do like Gyro and Search Souls. I think Knight, Toad, and Tomahawk are all pretty good. Number is inherently useful if you have nothing better to do for a turn or two.

For the Crosses in 6, most are very good depending on the situation with clear strengths and advantages, but a few of them seem pointless/redundant.

The Souls seem rather disappointing in 4. Often times, I feel like it’s more effective to not use any. They have a ton of limitations and restrictions and they’re still weaker than the normal buster, and can’t activate Full Sync.

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I just got Star Force 3 last week, actually, and recently picked up serpent bearer noise. Worked pretty good with some wood-type illegal cards I got and Bushido. Kinda weird but kind of cool that it boosts Club Strong's card.
 

I have yet to play any Star Force games? Are they any good compared to Battle Network.

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I think passion is fun in debates but you can't get a clouded head.

Yeah, nothing wrong with being passionate as long as you don’t ignore facts.

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13 hours ago, Whisky said:

True. Echidna is pretty cool.

True. The majority of Villagers in Echoes join early though, with only one exception.

I do wonder how her popularity would have been affected if she joined on the other route, though.

I would have liked more villagers throughout the game, personally.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

I haven’t gotten around to playing FE4-5 yet. I plan to soon. What is 4x?

The four Xs are explore, expand, exploit, exterminate. Civilization and stuff.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

Dude, seriously! It’s my favorite game franchise too! I replay through the series every few years or so.

I need to get back to trying to 100% those games.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

There really is a lot to think about with the styles. Custom might be the best but personally my favorite is Shield. Guts is great too because it makes it easier to get S ranks. I think Team is the worst but it’s still fun to create Navi heavy folders with it, some of which can be very potent.

I was confused by this at first, because Guts sounds like the worst for trying to get S-ranks, but you mean because of Super Armor, right?

Shield can block tons of damage if you have enough skill to use it, Team and Custom have obvious advantages. So I suppose they are more equitable than I'd thought.

There's also the concern in 3 about navi customizer parts, since they sort of standardize things. Any style can have super armor or extra custom slots, but when deciding what style you want for the main game there's also a concern about which programs you want to get. I'd say this a pretty massive boon for Custom styles, since you not only get +1 custom slots, but you need to level up custom style in order to get the navi customizer parts for whatever final style you choose. Not everyone will need Super Armor or MegaFolder, but you're definitely not going to want to miss out on up to +4 custom slots.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

Oh I see, yeah you might be right about that. I think there are at least a few Souls and Crosses that are competitive with each other. Some of them have clear situations that they are useful for. In my most recent playthrough of 5, I got a lot of use out of Napalm, Magnet, and Proto Souls. I’m not a fan of Meddy Soul. I do like Gyro and Search Souls. I think Knight, Toad, and Tomahawk are all pretty good. Number is inherently useful if you have nothing better to do for a turn or two.

Number and Search Soul are good, yeah. I rely pretty heavily on my chips and fishing for strong combos so they're favorites. Much better than anything else, I'd argue.

Tomahawk and Gyro Souls have very interesting ways of dealing double damage, but there aren't a lot of cool wind chips for the latter to use.

I've seen some impressive videos of Proto Soul and Toad Soul can paralyze, so that's nice. I do think Toad Soul would have worked better as a cross, since you get two crosses of one particular element. You could then have an aqua form that actually had an aqua-element charge shot. I heard Knight Soul was pretty good.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

For the Crosses in 6, most are very good depending on the situation with clear strengths and advantages, but a few of them seem pointless/redundant.

The Souls seem rather disappointing in 4. Often times, I feel like it’s more effective to not use any. They have a ton of limitations and restrictions and they’re still weaker than the normal buster, and can’t activate Full Sync.

I think part of the problem is just that Full Synchro is too good.

This is a general problem, not just one with respect to the balance of Souls but how combat of the whole game is designed. Double damage is just too good and too exploitable, which becomes a problem when you look at Aqua Cross and Tomahawk Cross. Elec Cross has easy paralysis though so I guess that balances out between versions, at least.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

I have yet to play any Star Force games? Are they any good compared to Battle Network.

I haven't beaten Star Force 3 yet, and I haven't played the previous games. Since some of 3s mechanics grow more relevant at you get further into the game and post game, I can't make too many definitive comments. It's definitely been fun so far though.

The core gameplay is a bit weaker, I won't comment too much about the difference between chips and cards right now though. However, the counter mechanic is much better in Star Force. You get an extra chip instead of something as broken as Full Synchro, but its still useful because it lets you keep up your assault.

13 hours ago, Whisky said:

Yeah, nothing wrong with being passionate as long as you don’t ignore facts.

The facts are your tools. Don't ignore the swords, they must sharpen each other.

Edited by AnonymousSpeed

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On 9/14/2020 at 12:10 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I do wonder how her popularity would have been affected if she joined on the other route, though.

I'n not sure why that would make a difference?

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I would have liked more villagers throughout the game, personally.

Fair enough. For me, I can enjoy using weak units and watching them grow stronger throughout the whole game, but if a unit joins later in the game under leveled,  I don't care about them as much, unless they have something unique about them. Some units can be good despite being under leveled like Zeiss. I'm talking about units that join late and weak like Nino. I prefer Wendy and Sophia over Nino because Nino just isn't around for long enough in my opinion.

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The four Xs are explore, expand, exploit, exterminate. Civilization and stuff.

Oh, I've never seen that term. I like Civilization. Some sort of cross between Fire Emblem and Civilization would be cool.

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I need to get back to trying to 100% those games.

I've 100%ed 1, 2 and 3 (with cheat codes only for the things that I needed to trade for because I had no one to trade with), and 6. I've like, 99%ed 5. 4 is the only one I haven't completed as much of. I have fought Bass though (only the first version).

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I was confused by this at first, because Guts sounds like the worst for trying to get S-ranks, but you mean because of Super Armor, right?

Yes, because of Super Armour. I'm more thinking of 2. I guess it doesn't matter as much in 3 since you don't actually need to be in Guts style to have Super Armour. 

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Shield can block tons of damage if you have enough skill to use it, Team and Custom have obvious advantages. So I suppose they are more equitable than I'd thought.

I love Shield, but I like using mostly every style. I think they're balanced pretty well in 2. 3 is more complicated.

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There's also the concern in 3 about navi customizer parts, since they sort of standardize things. Any style can have super armor or extra custom slots, but when deciding what style you want for the main game there's also a concern about which programs you want to get. I'd say this a pretty massive boon for Custom styles, since you not only get +1 custom slots, but you need to level up custom style in order to get the navi customizer parts for whatever final style you choose. Not everyone will need Super Armor or MegaFolder, but you're definitely not going to want to miss out on up to +4 custom slots.

It's complicated, but it depends on what type of build you're going for. What kind of play style you prefer or want to try out. etc. There's the question of what program blocks you want to prioritize unlocking, and then which style itself is actually better to be in. I think Shield Style is good. Reflect is really powerful. In Shield Style, you can block attacks, damage enemies with Reflect, and heal yourself, and you have an instant Barrier which not only blocks an attack but also prevents things like Flash Bulbs from paralyzing you or wind effects from pushing you around. You can get Reflect without Shield Style from Mod codes (which I use very often), but it comes with the bug of Cust -2, so actually unlocking the Reflect program block might allow for better builds.

Custom Style is of course really good. I don't need to go into that one.

Guts Style is probably worse in 3 than it is in 2. It doesn't give you Super Armour automatically in this one right? So you actually have to equip the program block which might not be worth it most of the time, especially when you can get Super Armour from Mod Codes if you need it. Depending on your play style, you might like Break Charge, but you can also get an Orange version of that without Guts Style, and it's highly situational. Guts Style is probably one of the worst ones in 3, but it can be fun to play around with. 

Team Style is needed for getting the V4 Navi chips. Well, not needed, but it makes it easier. Other than that, Mega Folder+. How useful is that? It can be good for specific builds though I think Cust is generally better. In 2, you can have 5 V3 Navi Chips and then with Team Style you can have an additional (is it 2 or 3 in that game?) V2 Navi chips which can be powerful for certain Navi builds, though again, Cust may generally be better. The enemies will probably be dead long before you've gone through all of your Navi chips. Just the fact that Team Style lets you break the normal Folder building rules is interesting. In 3, you can only have 1 of each Navi chip anyway, which is only 4 of a particular Navi chip. You obviously want FullCust, so if you want Atk +30 or Navi +40, then you need Team Style. Those atk boosters go very well with some of the best Navi chips including PlantMan.

3 also has a few new Styles. Shadow Style can use an infinite number of Invis and gives you the FloatShoes program. Ground is the Style I've used the least of but it seems interesting to play around with for various Stage controlling options. This one seems more interesting in NetBattles, which I haven't done much of. I've mostly played the single player. Bug Style has some very powerful program blocks and gives you random glitches every battle, some of which are very powerful.

It's funny actually that you value balance more in Battle Network, whereas I value it more in Fire Emblem. Maybe you've played more multiplayer battles than me? I don't think balance matters much for the single player. Overpowered builds can be a lot of fun, but you can also choose to not use them if you don't want to. Weaker builds are different enough that they can be fun to use, and weaker builds are good enough for the single player for the most part anyway, with very few exceptions if any.

To clarify, as I mentioned before, I don't think that all units should be equal in FE, just that they should have some advantage. There are alot of weak units in almost every FE game that are just completely outclassed by most other units.

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Number and Search Soul are good, yeah. I rely pretty heavily on my chips and fishing for strong combos so they're favorites. Much better than anything else, I'd argue.

Yeah, I can definitely see an argument for these two being the best. Number has diminishing returns depending on how many Custom program blocks you already have equipped, whereas Search is good no matter what, and has a better charge attack. Other Souls can be situationally good though, and their better charge attacks can be fun to use. You don't need to try to S rank enemies every battle. But yes, having a strong Folder does make charge attacks mostly pointless.

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Tomahawk and Gyro Souls have very interesting ways of dealing double damage, but there aren't a lot of cool wind chips for the latter to use.

I haven't used Tomahawk much in 5. I've used it more in 6. Gyro is fun. AirWheels, I forgot what they're called. AirSpins? They can be pretty good but you're right that there aren't very many wind chips. Gyro also gives you AirShoes and FloatShoes so that can be very useful in some cases.

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I've seen some impressive videos of Proto Soul and Toad Soul can paralyze, so that's nice. I do think Toad Soul would have worked better as a cross, since you get two crosses of one particular element. You could then have an aqua form that actually had an aqua-element charge shot. I heard Knight Soul was pretty good.

ProtoSoul can instantly clear out a lot of battles with a charged MoonBlade3 and charged VarSwords and MoonBlades deal a lot of damage. I agree, ToadCross would be interesting. KnightSoul is great. DrillArms can deal a lot of damage, and of course AirHockey is famous. As good as Full Sync is, you don't need to worry about getting counters with every attack if you can charge up for double damage anyway. I think Knight Soul also has Super Armour.

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I think part of the problem is just that Full Synchro is too good.

This is a general problem, not just one with respect to the balance of Souls but how combat of the whole game is designed. Double damage is just too good and too exploitable, which becomes a problem when you look at Aqua Cross and Tomahawk Cross. Elec Cross has easy paralysis though so I guess that balances out between versions, at least.

In 4, and to an extent 5, I agree. Souls have a lot of limitations and restrictions including removing the ability to use Full Sync, and Souls have terrible charge attacks in 4. In 6, you can choose to activate Crosses whenever you want, so you will only use them when they are useful. Crosses are situationally useful even with Full Sync being a thing, and aside from Full Sync, they're basically just a huge improvement. For Agua and Tomahawk, there are times when you don't have Full Sync active and can easily clear out all viruses with a charged CornShot or BubbleStar or something. Again, you can also double the damage of each of your attacks without needing to counter with every attack. Agua can also heal you, and Tomahawk gives you immunity to Paralysis. Crosses also have very strong charge attacks. The charge attacks on their own are often strong enough to easily clear out viruses and bosses without even using battle chips.

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I haven't beaten Star Force 3 yet, and I haven't played the previous games. Since some of 3s mechanics grow more relevant at you get further into the game and post game, I can't make too many definitive comments. It's definitely been fun so far though.

 

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The core gameplay is a bit weaker, I won't comment too much about the difference between chips and cards right now though. However, the counter mechanic is much better in Star Force. You get an extra chip instead of something as broken as Full Synchro, but its still useful because it lets you keep up your assault.

I should probably try them out actually. I love Battle Network and Star Force seems like the most similar thing.

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The facts are your tools. Don't ignore the swords, they must sharpen each other.

True. There's nothing wrong with liking a bad unit. You should argue based on what advantages units actually have and what things they can do instead of just denying when another unit clearly has them beat in certain areas. I find it interesting to discuss how to get the most out of bad units. 

Edited by Whisky

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2 hours ago, Whisky said:

I'n not sure why that would make a difference?

Fewer people go Elphin route, so if that was where you recruited her, perhaps fewer players would use her and thus fewer would care. The reason for people preferring Lalum route isn't strictly related to Echidna vs. Bartre, as I understand. I could be completely wrong though.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Fair enough. For me, I can enjoy using weak units and watching them grow stronger throughout the whole game, but if a unit joins later in the game under leveled,  I don't care about them as much, unless they have something unique about them. Some units can be good despite being under leveled like Zeiss. I'm talking about units that join late and weak like Nino. I prefer Wendy and Sophia over Nino because Nino just isn't around for long enough in my opinion.

I think one possible concern is that units you get early on develop to match the rest of your army fairly quickly. Looking at Kliff, he doesn't take too long to pull his weight. I guess I just misunderstood you, though. Wendy doesn't join later but she hardly joins as early as Kliff, so I guess we just had different time scales in mind.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Oh, I've never seen that term. I like Civilization. Some sort of cross between Fire Emblem and Civilization would be cool.

Civ would probably be the wrong model to follow, you'd want something in a more concentrated time scale and with more differentiation between countries. Bern with wyverns, Ilia with pegasi, Sacae with nomads and myrmidons.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Yes, because of Super Armour. I'm more thinking of 2. I guess it doesn't matter as much in 3 since you don't actually need to be in Guts style to have Super Armour.

I'd forgotten about the modtools, which basically rob Guts of its biggest advantage. I always use them for super armor, and doesn't have much else to offer. My first style change was actually AquaGuts, but it really just isn't that good. Maybe if I was better at mashing to use Guts Machine Gun? It just lacked any distinct advantage it could really pursue in 3.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

I love Shield, but I like using mostly every style. I think they're balanced pretty well in 2. 3 is more complicated.

I could just never get the timing down for shield.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Team Style is needed for getting the V4 Navi chips. Well, not needed, but it makes it easier. Other than that, Mega Folder+. How useful is that? It can be good for specific builds though I think Cust is generally better. In 2, you can have 5 V3 Navi Chips and then with Team Style you can have an additional (is it 2 or 3 in that game?) V2 Navi chips which can be powerful for certain Navi builds, though again, Cust may generally be better. The enemies will probably be dead long before you've gone through all of your Navi chips. Just the fact that Team Style lets you break the normal Folder building rules is interesting. In 3, you can only have 1 of each Navi chip anyway, which is only 4 of a particular Navi chip. You obviously want FullCust, so if you want Atk +30 or Navi +40, then you need Team Style. Those atk boosters go very well with some of the best Navi chips including PlantMan.

I think it's 8 mega chips in BN2. It's 6 without navi customizer parts in 3. I'm not as experienced with 2, but I imagine the mega chip system and the reduced base make Team comparatively weaker. Team Style is definitely required for the V4 navi chips (like how Custom is required for Burning), unless you mean the chip trader or something?

FullCust is a mainstay, but if you're focusing on buffing BubbleMan or PlantMan, the element+ chips are standard class so you might care as much for attack +30. I personally never cared too much for it, I never thought it was strong enough to count as Mega Class unless you used it on SuperVulcan or something, which is kind of situational.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

3 also has a few new Styles. Shadow Style gives you the FloatShoes program. Ground is the Style I've used the least of but it seems interesting to play around with for various Stage controlling options. This one seems more interesting in NetBattles, which I haven't done much of. I've mostly played the single player. Bug Style has some very powerful program blocks and gives you random glitches every battle, some of which are very powerful.

Shadow also gives you AntiDamage, which has a stricter timing than Shield so maybe not as good of a program.

What does Ground do aside from earn SetStage programs? It cracks panels your charge attack hits but I'm not even sure that's really an advantage. The fact that it was the style unique to White version implies this was somehow their cool idea for a new style to put in the game and it's underwhelming what they came up with, despite it being an actually cool concept.

Bug Style is very fun, I like it a lot conceptually but haven't used it.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

It's funny actually that you value balance more in Battle Network, whereas I value it more in Fire Emblem. Maybe you've played more multiplayer battles than me? I don't think balance matters much for the single player. Overpowered builds can be a lot of fun, but you can also choose to not use them if you don't want to. Weaker builds are different enough that they can be fun to use, and weaker builds are good enough for the single player for the most part anyway, with very few exceptions if any.

I don't think it's so much about multiplayer as the fact that you really use one at a time. You can use Wendy and Perceval if you want. You can only have one style equipped at a time and its more effective to build your folder around a small number of Souls/Crosses. I also think Battle Network is more meant for a long, dedicated playthrough, given their extensive postgames. Fire Emblem games lend themselves more naturally to replaying them with different strategies.

Also, defeating navis in under 30 seconds (or even 10 seconds) has actual importance in Battle Network, so in that sense there is competition between the styles and souls. Colonel Soul's unique advantages aren't going to help you S rank bosses. It can't do the exceptional tasks you need, so if something else does those and the common work better as well, why use it? The supertasks Fire Emblem gives you can be conquered by nearly any team, but this isn't so much the case for Battle Network.

I suppose I agree with you that every unit should be "viable," but that threshold is higher for Battle Network form changes.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

I haven't used Tomahawk much in 5.

I think absorbing grass panels to double damage is a lot more interesting than charging chips for double damage. I love stuff like that, unique and thematic ways to utilize advantages.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Gyro is fun. AirWheels, I forgot what they're called. AirSpins? They can be pretty good. Gyro also gives you AirShoes and FloatShoes so that can be very useful in some cases.

Omnishoes is great, but your air chip selection really is limited to the AirSpin series, Air Shot, Wind Racket, and Tornado. Compared to most other elements, it's...not much. Not a lot you can do with them besides chain together attacks with Gyro Soul.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

ProtoSoul can instantly clear out a lot of battles with a charged MoonBlade3.

People can actually pull off the timing use it with VarSword's double life sword, which is a spectacle. I think it even works with NeoVari.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

As good as Full Sync is, you don't need to worry about getting counters with every attack if you can charge up for double damage anyway.

Crosses are situationally useful even with Full Sync being a thing, and aside from Full Sync, they're basically just a huge improvement...Again, you can also double the damage of each of your attacks without needing to counter with every attack.

Crosses are definitely better than Souls, but I just think double damage is too much in general. Attack plus on multi-hitting chips is already huge, so when you can double that, it descends into absurdity. One of the things Star Force does better than Battle Network is doing away with double damage outside of elemental multipliers. It forces the bosses to grow their HP to more monstrous levels, and it places too great an emphasis on the options which can double damage compared to those that can't. One of the big disadvantages of 5 is how nearly every chip flinches, which requires you to really use counters if you want to be efficient against bosses, and maybe that wasn't intentional, but its another example of how FullSynchro and its ilk messed things up.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

I should probably try them out actually. I love Battle Network and Star Force seems like the most similar thing.

There are a lot of would-be Battle Network successors, but while they may appear more similar, they really fail to capture the feeling in the way I feel Star Force does.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

True. There's nothing wrong with liking a bad unit. You should argue based on what advantages units actually have and what things they can do instead of just denying when another unit clearly has them beat in certain areas. I find it interesting to discuss how to get the most out of bad units. 

Yeah, the best way to make a unit useful is to say what it can definitely do.

Edited by AnonymousSpeed

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On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Fewer people go Elphin route, so if that was where you recruited her, perhaps fewer players would use her and thus fewer would care. The reason for people preferring Lalum route isn't strictly related to Echidna vs. Bartre, as I understand. I could be completely wrong though.

Oh, that might be true. I don't know which route is more popular or why. For me personally, I have played A route more times than B route, but not for any particular reason, that's just how it ended up. I sometimes use an RNG from google to decide which route to go. I don't mind route B. The smaller corridors in Ch 10B compared to 11A once caused Tate's squad to get in my way when trying to recruit her so I had to kill her squad, thus missing out on the Elysian Whip. That could probably be avoided just by moving further south though, as long as you don't get over whelmed by the Cavalier reinforcements.

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I think one possible concern is that units you get early on develop to match the rest of your army fairly quickly. Looking at Kliff, he doesn't take too long to pull his weight. I guess I just misunderstood you, though. Wendy doesn't join later but she hardly joins as early as Kliff, so I guess we just had different time scales in mind.

Well it's relative. Some units join more under leveled than others. I think Wendy and Lilina join early enough that it doesn't matter as much, especially for Lilina. Wendy is so weak that she would be bad even if she joined in Ch1. I do think that Sophia, as well as Ewan, Amelia, and Marisa join a bit too late for my liking, but none of them are as extreme as Nino. There's like 3 or 4 battles left when Nino joins. That's not enough time left to enjoy a unit in my opinion, especially if they join weak.

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Civ would probably be the wrong model to follow, you'd want something in a more concentrated time scale and with more differentiation between countries. Bern with wyverns, Ilia with pegasi, Sacae with nomads and myrmidons.

It wouldn't work exactly like Civ. The details would need to be worked out. How about just take Fire Emblem, but make the maps much larger, and allow the player to control green units with unique blue units as the squad leaders? Depending on how the maps are designed, this could potentially be interesting, and Armour Knights could be useful.

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I'd forgotten about the modtools, which basically rob Guts of its biggest advantage. I always use them for super armor, and doesn't have much else to offer. My first style change was actually AquaGuts, but it really just isn't that good. Maybe if I was better at mashing to use Guts Machine Gun? It just lacked any distinct advantage it could really pursue in 3.

I could just never get the timing down for shield.

The Guts Machine Gun isn't that useful anyway, especially with Agua style which has a very quick charge shot. If you know the code for Super Armour in mod tools, there probably isn't much point in Guts Style really. But you could want Super Armour while using the Mod Tools for an error code. Since Guts Style is Red, then I think that would only be useful for Shadow Style, the only other Red Style I can think of right now.

I think Super Armour is one of the best things you can get from the Mod Tools. Reflect is great too if you don't have the program yet or for some reason can't equip the program at the time. Reflect comes with the glitch of Cust -2 which is pretty bad, but Reflect is so strong that it can actually be worth it sometimes. Reflect can be very effective against some enemies and bosses.

If you practice the timing of it, Shield can be a great way to block attacks and restore HP if you're in Shield Style. Reflect is the same thing that also deals pretty good damage back to the enemy, and is an easy way to get Bug Frag from a lot of enemies.

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I think it's 8 mega chips in BN2. It's 6 without navi customizer parts in 3. I'm not as experienced with 2, but I imagine the mega chip system and the reduced base make Team comparatively weaker. Team Style is definitely required for the V4 navi chips (like how Custom is required for Burning), unless you mean the chip trader or something?

I'm not sure if you can get V4 Navi chips from the chip trader, but you can from the Bug Frag trader.

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FullCust is a mainstay, but if you're focusing on buffing BubbleMan or PlantMan, the element+ chips are standard class so you might care as much for attack +30. I personally never cared too much for it, I never thought it was strong enough to count as Mega Class unless you used it on SuperVulcan or something, which is kind of situational.

True. I don't know why I forgot about the element+ chips while typing that. Atk+30 and Navi+40 are good for DarkMan and YamatoMan though, and a few others. It was funny when you could have 5 Full Custs and 5 Atk +30 in the second game. I love making OP folders in that game (and in 3 too actually). FolderBack, anyone?

Another thing you can do with Team Style is having more Navi chips. Most don’t come in the same code but a few do. There’s ProtoMan and BowlMan or BubbleMan, DrillMan and DarkMan, or FlashMan and FlameMan.

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Shadow also gives you AntiDamage, which has a stricter timing than Shield so maybe not as good of a program.

I find it hard to utilize due to the stricter timing, and the counter attack has a huge delay compared to Reflect that instantly damages the enemy in front of you. I guess it could be useful against attacks that pierce through guards. It also turns your charged attack into an Invis so you can avoid any attack by timing a charged Invis, and can do that indefinitely.

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What does Ground do aside from earn SetStage programs? It cracks panels your charge attack hits but I'm not even sure that's really an advantage. The fact that it was the style unique to White version implies this was somehow their cool idea for a new style to put in the game and it's underwhelming what they came up with, despite it being an actually cool concept.

The SetStages are the main point of it. I don't know how useful cracking panels actually is but it seems like an interesting Style to use in a multiplayer battle.

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Bug Style is very fun, I like it a lot conceptually but haven't used it.

I don't think it's so much about multiplayer as the fact that you really use one at a time. You can use Wendy and Perceval if you want. You can only have one style equipped at a time and its more effective to build your folder around a small number of Souls/Crosses. I also think Battle Network is more meant for a long, dedicated playthrough, given their extensive postgames. Fire Emblem games lend themselves more naturally to replaying them with different strategies.

Also, defeating navis in under 30 seconds (or even 10 seconds) has actual importance in Battle Network, so in that sense there is competition between the styles and souls. Colonel Soul's unique advantages aren't going to help you S rank bosses. It can't do the exceptional tasks you need, so if something else does those and the common work better as well, why use it? The supertasks Fire Emblem gives you can be conquered by nearly any team, but this isn't so much the case for Battle Network.

I suppose I agree with you that every unit should be "viable," but that threshold is higher for Battle Network form changes.

Well using Percival and Wendy would make your team weaker than if you used Percival and a better unit. Playing quickly does have advantages in a lot of maps and using better units makes that easier to do. In Battle Network, you can create a variety of downright OP builds like Gator and BodyGuard in 2 or FolderBack and PlantMan in 3. You don't need to use OP builds to get S ranks though. You can still attain S ranks with comparatively weak builds. In fact, it can be fun to try to get S ranks with a weaker build, or just different builds. In regards to Styles, Cust or Shield Style are probably better than Guts, but it is certainly still possible to get S ranks with Guts Style too.

I've played around with a lot of different builds in Battle Network. I'm still amazed at the amount of customization available in Battle Network. From your Style which is made up of a type and an element, your Navi Customizer including various useful program blocks and Mod Tools, and obviously how you build your Folder. I absolutely love the amount of variety available in these games. There are numerous ways to create over powered builds, or any other level of build which have varying effectiveness but also force you to actually form completely different strategies during battle and play very differently. It can be a lot of fun to use over powered builds, but if you don't want to make the game too easy on yourself, then you can use a weaker build. Either way allows for a ton of customization and variety, depending on your preferred play style.

You don't always need to prioritize Busting Level. Sometimes, I try to delete the enemies as quickly as possible. Sometimes I try to get a Double or Triple delete even if I know it will take too long to be a good Busting Level. Sometimes I prioritize getting counters for Bug Frag. And sometimes I just feel like fighting the enemies in a particular way, such as killing all the enemies with Reflect or only using my buster, or purposely setting up for some cool combo. I have played through each game in the series limiting myself to only using A code Chips. I did it again for B, and then C. Personally, I find this to be a very interesting and fun way to play the game. I don't even do this as a challenge run but because it forces me to use different builds and strategies. There were some Battle Chips I didn't know how to utilize as well before playing this way. I recently figured out a new combo in 2; Zap Ring paralyzes the enemy long enough to hit them with a slower attack such as Quake or TreeBomb. Simple. It is paralysis after all. But did you know that TreeBomb stuns bosses for a few seconds? I didn't (AirShot does too by the way). So the full combo I discovered was Zap Ring -> Tree Bomb -> something else, in my case Cutman or Life Sword. And speaking of AirShot, you can use an AirShot or a GutsPunch to push a RockCube into an enemy for 200 damage.

The thing about Styles is that you get the style that reflects your actual play Style. A lot of novice players don't realize how good it is to make a uni-code Folder, instead just putting their strongest chips in. From my understanding, a lot of people get Guts Style as their first Style (both of us did apparently). For a less skilled player that doesn't understand how to make a great Folder, Guts Style may benefit them more. The game gives you the Style that reflects how you actually play, and I think that's really cool. Someone that likes to use a lot of Navi chips will appreciate being able to put more of them into their Folder. Someone that likes to play Defensively with Barriers and Guards automatically gets a Barrier and a Shield to use. Players that create a strong uni-code Folder and like to utilize combos get Cust Style. Different builds allow for such different strategies and play styles that I really can't mind if they're not perfectly balanced, as long as they allow for a different way to approach battles.

But you may have been talking more about the later games with the Souls? You mentioned Colonel not being good enough, and you're probably right about that. Some of the Souls in 5 are good, at least situationally, which is all they really need to be. You can choose to not activate them if they aren't good for that situation, but there are situations when they are worth you using, at least for a lot of them. Same for Crosses. Maybe I need to get better at getting counters to see that they aren't balanced, but Crosses are powerful enough to S rank some bosses and enemies without any battle chips anyway so I think they're fine. I really do think the Souls in 4 should have much stronger charge attacks though. If you have a good folder, you won't have many chips of a particular type to be able to utilize the Soul's chip bonuses much anyway, and you have to sacrifice one of your limited chips just to activate the Soul in the first place. I could be wrong, but Folder building options seem much more limited in 4 than in other games. But yeah, I could agree that Full Sync is too powerful and shouldn't have been added. It's also annoying when stunning an enemy with a counter can actually mess up your timing.

On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I think absorbing grass panels to double damage is a lot more interesting than charging chips for double damage. I love stuff like that, unique and thematic ways to utilize advantages.

I didn't even realize it did that lol. Yeah, that is interesting. It makes it even more situational though because you might not have Grass panels to use, so even more reason to argue that the Souls are unbalanced. You can attack more quickly though since you don't need to charge up, as long as you have Grass Panels. Too bad SetGrass isn't in this game.

On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Omnishoes is great, but your air chip selection really is limited to the AirSpin series, Air Shot, Wind Racket, and Tornado. Compared to most other elements, it's...not much. Not a lot you can do with them besides chain together attacks with Gyro Soul.

Don't forgot that it also can double the damage of a non-elemental attack once, and once you use one Wind chip, you keep the double damage with each Wind chip you use until you use a non-element attack. But yes, the selection of Wind chips is limited. 

On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

People can actually pull off the timing use it with VarSword's double life sword, which is a spectacle. I think it even works with NeoVari.

I managed to get pretty good at the timing of VarSword's Sonic Boom but not anything else. There's a Double Life Sword effect from Var Sword? I didn't know that. I don't think I've ever used NeoVari but combining that with ProtoSoul sounds really good.

On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Crosses are definitely better than Souls, but I just think double damage is too much in general. Attack plus on multi-hitting chips is already huge, so when you can double that, it descends into absurdity. One of the things Star Force does better than Battle Network is doing away with double damage outside of elemental multipliers. It forces the bosses to grow their HP to more monstrous levels, and it places too great an emphasis on the options which can double damage compared to those that can't. One of the big disadvantages of 5 is how nearly every chip flinches, which requires you to really use counters if you want to be efficient against bosses, and maybe that wasn't intentional, but its another example of how FullSynchro and its ilk messed things up.

Again, maybe I need to get better at getting counters for Full Sync. I can definitely see how good it could be. Fortunately, there isn't a time incentive on the strongest bosses like Bass and Bass Omega. You don't need to worry about S ranking them, just winning the fight. I wonder if Meddy Soul could actually be good for the WhiteCapsules?

On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

There are a lot of would-be Battle Network successors, but while they may appear more similar, they really fail to capture the feeling in the way I feel Star Force does.

Are there? I didn't know of any other than Star Force. Do you know the names of some of them so I could check them out?

On 9/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Yeah, the best way to make a unit useful is to say what it can definitely do.

It seems like discussions about bad units usually end at "X unit is bad, worse than most units, and not worth using". But why does it end there? We all know people will use bad units anyway even knowing that they're bad, so why not discuss ways to get the most out of them? Even bad units still have certain strengths and weaknesses.

Edited by Whisky

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@Whisky @AnonymousSpeed While I also love MMBN, maybe this is not the place for this discussion?

And to get back on topic, I don't believe anybody mentioned adding linked attacks to FE6. I think that could work, would be especially good if enemies could use it too.

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2 hours ago, whase said:

@Whisky @AnonymousSpeed While I also love MMBN, maybe this is not the place for this discussion?

And to get back on topic, I don't believe anybody mentioned adding linked attacks to FE6. I think that could work, would be especially good if enemies could use it too.

Would certainly help to make those hoards of low level unprompted units you fight in the Sword of Seals chapter more dangerous.

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An idea a friend of mine had is to have Manakete Roy but only as a Save-game bonus if an FE7 remake exists. (So you'd have to get the Ninian/Eliwood ending in an FE7 remake and link your save for Manakete Roy, otherwise it's just like OG FE6.)

 

Sophia to be just a LITTLE less useless, I get she's an escort but at least make her not complete trash.

 

 

 

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I'd wanna tackle it the same way SoV tackled Gaiden

 

I don't wanna change the core game, cause that would upset people who enjoyed the original (including me)

However I would add QOL changes, like a more fleshed out and easier to use support system, danger lines, maybe possibly divine pulse/turnwheel to counter the ambush spawns, because removing ambush spawns would change too much of what made FE6, well, FE6

But maybe make the turnwheel an optional feature, as it would take away from the game otherwise

Outside of that, FE6 (imo) is great on its own, the potential remake should focus more on visuals and the writing

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8 hours ago, Muesli said:

I don't wanna change the core game, cause that would upset people who enjoyed the original (including me)

A lot more people were upset by the things Echoes did not change tho. And it would probably be the same with this.

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21 hours ago, Samz707 said:

An idea a friend of mine had is to have Manakete Roy but only as a Save-game bonus if an FE7 remake exists. (So you'd have to get the Ninian/Eliwood ending in an FE7 remake and link your save for Manakete Roy, otherwise it's just like OG FE6.)

That really doesn't make much sense, considering that while Ninian x Eliwood is fine, Ninian is half-dragon, making Roy quarter-dragon. Sophia is half dragon and not a manakete, so why would Roy be a manakete if he is a quarter dragon.

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12 minutes ago, Hello72207 said:

Sophia is half dragon and not a manakete, so why would Roy be a manakete if he is a quarter dragon.

Pinging our local Genealogy expert @AnonymousSpeed, for, as he said many years ago:

On 3/6/2014 at 8:29 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

By all real scientific accounts, half dragon babies...are very plausible. I mean, Mules, that Tiger/Lion thing, given the immensely similar physiology of the two species it's not so far out. Especially in a magical world were spinning an axe can let you fly.

Anyways, I wouldn't be opposed to something that comes from his draconic heritage-Dragon veins or something of the sort, maybe? Or maybe he can ride wyverns or something, or maybe he has innately high magic from Ninian, so he could be a Celica-type lord in terms of magic and swords?

Edited by Benice

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5 minutes ago, Benice said:

Pinging our local Genealogy expert @AnonymousSpeed, for, as he said many years ago:

Anyways, I wouldn't be opposed to something that comes from his draconic heritage-Dragon veins or something of the sort, maybe? Or maybe he can ride wyverns or something, or maybe he has innately high magic from Ninian, so he could be a Celica-type lord in terms of magic and swords?

I’ve been staying quiet because I’m waiting for a reply form AnonymousSpeed myself (though we might need to create a new topic thread for that or take it to PMs), but this idea reminded me of an idea I thought of before.

So, Roy doesn’t actually gain much from his promotion. The stat bonuses are fairly small, he doesn’t gain any new weapon type, no Crit bonus, no mount, he doesn’t even get a new sprite or attack animation. The Sword of Seals is what makes Roy good, not the promotion. If Roy didn’t promote at all, he probably wouldn’t be much worse. So as an idea to for an ability that Roy could gain on promotion, I thought of a SpellBlade type ability. Roy channels magic into his sword in order to attack at 1-2 range with any sword he wields.

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1 hour ago, Whisky said:

, I thought of a SpellBlade type ability. Roy channels magic into his sword in order to attack at 1-2 range with any sword he wields.

That reminds me of my fanfictionhack I planned to do at some point, but that I scrapped almost instantly. So I would second it on pure personal bias lol. Though it contradicts cecilia saying she only didn't bother teaching him magic because he would be kinda mediocre to bad at it.

Edited by German FE Nino

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1. Roy has an earlier promotion

2. No more ambush spawn

3. Less units

4. smaller maps

5. make Liliana a lord with an actual defense stat

6. Make it less of a test of patience through balancing

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On 9/17/2020 at 8:38 AM, whase said:

@Whisky @AnonymousSpeed While I also love MMBN, maybe this is not the place for this discussion?

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

I’ve been staying quiet because I’m waiting for a reply form AnonymousSpeed myself (though we might need to create a new topic thread for that or take it to PMs), but this idea reminded me of an idea I thought of before.

That...might be a good idea, given that the Fire Emblem portion of the conversation had become a minority of the word count.

 

On 9/17/2020 at 4:32 PM, Samz707 said:

An idea a friend of mine had is to have Manakete Roy but only as a Save-game bonus if an FE7 remake exists. (So you'd have to get the Ninian/Eliwood ending in an FE7 remake and link your save for Manakete Roy, otherwise it's just like OG FE6.)

3 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

That really doesn't make much sense, considering that while Ninian x Eliwood is fine, Ninian is half-dragon, making Roy quarter-dragon. Sophia is half dragon and not a manakete, so why would Roy be a manakete if he is a quarter dragon.

3 hours ago, Benice said:

Pinging our local Genealogy expert @AnonymousSpeed, for, as he said many years ago:

Anyways, I wouldn't be opposed to something that comes from his draconic heritage-Dragon veins or something of the sort, maybe? Or maybe he can ride wyverns or something, or maybe he has innately high magic from Ninian, so he could be a Celica-type lord in terms of magic and swords?

Hahahah yep, sure did say that, definitely want it continually associated with me.

I have more recently pointed out how only full blooded manaketes could transform into dragons until...well, FE7, the worst game ever made. So while it may be canon to Elibe, it's still stupid and only applies when the writers throw away all concept of effort and deliberation.

 

13 hours ago, Muesli said:

Outside of that, FE6 (imo) is great on its own, the potential remake should focus more on visuals and the writing

It is best game. I wouldn't even mind additions like turnwheels which may significantly alter how you play, but they smooth things over rather than break them.

 

5 hours ago, German FE Nino said:

A lot more people were upset by the things Echoes did not change tho. And it would probably be the same with this.

Then they would be wrong!

FE6 is pretty good, I think it's a lot closer to what people would consider a "good Fire Emblem game" than Gaiden was. Gaiden really shows its age throughout its design choices, I think Binding Blade doesn't need many updates to be enjoyable for new players. That, and I think remakes are obligated to be closer to the original than not.

 

1 hour ago, Gordin said:

Allow us to use stat boosters and promote units in the preparation screen. 

This would be good.

 

52 minutes ago, MSAtlos said:

3. Less units

nick-young-meme_zqggxy.png&f=1&nofb=1

52 minutes ago, MSAtlos said:

6. Make it less of a test of patience through balancing

disapproving-corgis-5.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

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