New Prince of Tennis Mafia: Season 1

[Paperblade]

I thought it was pretty obvious he was asking if anyone had something in their role PM implying information =/

[Balcerzak]

Bal I never said that I thought Eclipse was scum and I never said I thought that Scorri was scum

So no wonder you think the cases are weak because. They're not actually really there

Furthermore, I was just addressing the pair of arguments as exactly what they were. Arguments. And then I was giving my reactions based on the exchanges I saw. I didn't try to imply you were pushing for a scorri lynch, or an eclipse lynch, because obviously you haven't been. But frankly, I'll let your own words on the matter speak for themselves.

Okay well then I shall list my earlygame vibes

Scorri feels scum, Blitz feels town, Prims is super-neutral atm I don't know what to feel about him

eclipse my bigger post should answer most of the questions you just asked me ???????????

I'm not attacking Scorri for voting me but for pretty much being completely unmemorable other than when she goes in to remind everyone how suspicious I am

and I react negatively to votes on me that I think are hypocritical, or that are flimsy

Erm, to clarify further, I think Eclipse is scummier than Paper regarding recent content.

also you are misrepping me and it says a lot that you don't care and aren't willing to take my explanations in consideration by continuing to misrep me

Actually Eclipse have you been paying attention to what I said? I don't like saying things and then having to explain myself again but here's something else

I explained why I didn't like Helios's post, you can go read the post I spent a while typing up to clarify everything

I already mentioned liking some of Paper's content, liking Prims's content, and liking RD's contributions since at least he was legitimately trying, but would rather not say anything much else about things that I like because fmpov that only helps the scum narrow down who they should kill later, who they should keep alive to give them an advantage later, etc.

Prims is right in that you've been misrepping a lot of things so far and don't have much material to back yourself up either

[Percivalé]

To be completely honest my opinion took a flip and I think Paper is scummier than Eclipse again because the way he's playing comes off as much more mellow and under the radar than Eclipse, even though I don't enjoy the reasoning Eclipse uses for some of her votes and the fact that she seems to switch opinions pretty quickly.

I'm neutral on Scorri.

[Percivalé]

Anyway the phrasing I used was vague as is. "x is scummier than y" still doesn't mean I have a complete 100% scum read on x, but you understand that so idk I think I should sleep before I try to address anything else. sorry

[Helios]

What suddenly made you neutral on scorri, Bizz?

Also will address Bal's other posts in a bit

[Percivalé]

I've always been unsure of what to think about Scorri. Like I said just, I'm going to give everything a reread and actually start to make more sense I promise

[Helios]

@Bizz: Strange, I always thought scorri was one of your top scumreads based on all the scummy things you've commented about her in this game.

Also, as specifically noted my "empty speculation" was aimed more at shutting down the speculation, than specula for specula's sake.

Furthermore, I'm notoriously bad at scumhunting, but I'll press that at least I was trying and that I was posting. In fact a lot more earlygame posting than I usually do, trying to make a good effort for the invitational here. I guess stepping out of my comfort zone serves me well. Now I know why Kay posts as often as she does. :S

I personally don't think the problem was with the speculation talk necessarily, it's just that ALL YOU DID was "try to shut down" speculation. That's just pseudo-contribution, so in reality you haven't produced any content until now, which is scummy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you said you were busy yesterday, but you just didn't do much aside from the Paperbrad vote.

Also I don't really like the second paragraph simply because I don't like people lacking confidence in themselves, but that's a side matter.

In other news, as far as the recent eclipse vs Bizz and Bizz vs scorri arguments go, eclipse is coming off looking like her argument is more solidly put together. Furthermore, I didn't see anything really wrong with her earlier Blitz vote, and the earlier Bizz vs eclipse argument over the Paper wagon it seemed to me more that Bizz was misrepping eclipse rather than what's been accused here of the other way around, but perhaps that's just my personal perspective.

I'm weighing in with a town read on eclipse.

Bizz has also been really aggressive on scorri since the get-go, and whether or not the claims of tunneling or hounding are valid, she's definitely been covering a few other topics, including at least RD, Paper, and myself.

I'm by no means sold on a scum Bizz, because this sort of aggressive play fits in with what I can expect, although there are a few more niggling aspects to it. Furthermore, just because I think this particular case on scorri is weak, I do feel that there are certainly some valid criticism to be applied to her play and I cannot in good conscience call her a town read. Not by a long stretch.

This post makes you look even worse. You think eclipse is town? Cool. What about scumreads? Okay so you start talking about how Bizz and scorri look scummy....and then you follow up with "I'm not sold on scum!Bizz or scumri". Really now? You're gonna play this card? Scummy move, Bal.

OK Paperblade, if that's really how you see it, I guess I honestly can't convince you. But all I'm seeing is baseless and misleading specula about 2nd hostile faction or ITP based on gross misreading of the flavor.

And shit, who was it that was always harping on me in this past for starting out games with setup speculation, as being an easy measure used by anti-town to make it look like they're being helpful while they're really not interesting in helping things along? Maybe it wasn't you in particular, but I would be surprised if you weren't around to read it.

Actually, given this, and also the post where RD doesn't seem to actually be sure of the designation for the town wincon, I really ought to move a vote here. My vote on you was random to begin with, and while I'm not particularly happy with some of your logic, you do at least seem to carry forward a few of the town interests. It's always hard to tell though with master busser Kelsey.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Radiant Dragon

For kicking off the whole distraction topic to begin with, and if nothing else to perhaps get him to come back and share new opinions on the developments made past ED1 (hello glass house).

This vote is pretty weak since I think RD talking about the speculation is what really got us out of RVS, and seeing as there was absolutely nothing to really talk about at the time it doesn't seem like a horribly scummy thing to do. If anything, scum wants RVS to last as long as possible so that town doesn't discuss things as much.

Starting to feel better about this Bal wagon and may end up switching my vote to him, but I believe he's at L-2 right now and don't want to risk any funny business so I'm gonna keep my vote where it is.

[Balcerzak]

To clarify, what I'm mostly still hung up on as far as Bizz is her "early" scum read on scorri. It tripped warning bells, and hence the niggling issues. Aside from that her play has been fine. Leagues above e.g. Elevatorstuck.

scorri just hasn't posted enough. She hasn't been protown, but she hasn't pinged anything big on scumdar.

If sharing what I can on recent developments counts as scummy, then by all means, fucking chalk me up as scum of the year. Better you at least get to see them before trying to kill me than my taking it to the grave, after all.

Go ahead and vote your heart though. Cycle doesn't end unless actions are in, and I'm not sending in an action for another several hours, and definitely not until after I claim at worst case scenario, because my lynch would be anti-town.

[Balcerzak]

Also, it's probably worth keeping an eye on Prims. Life had a weak start, but NOC was never his area of expertise, so I'm hesitant to call out scum.

Kay is going to get hit by 4.1, so hopefully we'll have better luck with BBM or Manix or someone.

I'll try to spend some more time later fleshing some of this out, but honestly, I wasn't expecting to have to devote 3-6 hours on this game tonight.

[Helios]

You're not scum for sharing your thoughts on the game lol. It's just that you don't have a solid opinion on anyone being scummy, and I don't like your vote on RD. You're just playing way too hesitant.

[Kay]

The way that Life is talking about OC vs. NOC reads to me as sort of scummy. I would think that most if not all of us here know the difference between NOC and OC, and even if we didn't he doesn't really need to go on and on about it. Like, it really rubs me the wrong way.

I don't think he's really talking about it that much.

Because I don't believe in tunneling so hard that I lose sight of everyone else, especially not this early into the game. My reasons are still ongoing, and as such, I can't say much more than that.

Not buying it. Posting scumreads is not necessarily tunneling.

Pretty sure Bal is just being odd, not scummy. Paper is actually starting to look a bit better IMO.

Anyway the phrasing I used was vague as is. "x is scummier than y" still doesn't mean I have a complete 100% scum read on x, but you understand that so idk I think I should sleep before I try to address anything else. sorry

It may not be a 100% scumread but it still indicates that you suspect someone at least to some extent.

[Balcerzak]

I thought it was pretty obvious he was asking if anyone had something in their role PM implying information =/

I just remembered my objection to this line of thought. A numbers role or similar is pretty inconceivable due to the mechanics of this game.

Look at stamina and training, and then tell me how that would work with a role like that. And even if he was fishing for anyone with role PM insights, there's no point. If a townie has it and it's a protown move to out it, we're all good enough to be able to make that call without anyone prodding us to do so.

If scum has the info, then they'll do their own fucking weighing and balancing on trying to get town cred vs how much it would help the town, and I doubt someone asking is going to change their mind about it, nor should we trust anything that comes from scum sources that can't be verified. Obviously though, we wouldn't know if it was coming from scum, so there's the rub.

@Helios: I don't have solid opinions because nobody's been super bad. It's as simple as that. It's day 1. There's nothing to be solid about. There haven't been any claims, counter claims or anything but specula and playstyle issues. Fishing out reaction tests is at best an inexact science. The possibility of being wrong on a read is ridiculously high. Them's just the facts.

[Prims]

@Helios: I don't have solid opinions because nobody's been super bad. It's as simple as that. It's day 1. There's nothing to be solid about. There haven't been any claims, counter claims or anything but specula and playstyle issues. Fishing out reaction tests is at best an inexact science. The possibility of being wrong on a read is ridiculously high. Them's just the facts.

it's not impossible to catch scum d1 & if everybody takes this approach then d2 is gonna be just as shit

you don't have to find somebody Super Bad to lynch them.

also the phase can end without all actions, we just can't hammer before then

[Balcerzak]

Day 2 you have usually at least two flips to work with. That's guaranteed undeniable evidence. Then you analyze voting patterns, buddying and interactions.

Buddying and interactions mean shit without a flip. Yes, you can catch scum D1, but it's usually serendipitous or involves massive fuckups on part of the scum.

Also:

"1.1 Each Cycle lasts 72 hours. A Cycle may end early if a super majority (66% of living players) is reached and all actions were sent in."

Usually an 'and' means that both are required.

Oh wait, you're not even contradicting me, you're just stating the obvious.

My comment was in direct reply to Helios' "but I believe he's at L-2 right now and don't want to risk any funny business" so I thought the implied accidental hammer if he'd missed a vote since votals, or letting scum quickhammer after him were the sort of "funny business" implied. Obviously phase will end on time regardless of actions in to avoid letting a scumstall prevent game progress by not submitting when he's on the chopping block. I'm not really sure why you would feel the need to be pedantic about semantics.

[Helios]

@Kay: Do you find anyone scummy atm? Your other reads on players haven't changed at all since you last posted?

@Bal: Mafia in general isn't an exact science. Because of this, you have to do what you can to try your best and lynch scum if your town. Being hesitant and indecisive helps even less in doing this. If you focus on how possible it is to be wrong, then you'll never be right (useful real life tip as well). Like Prims said, if people play with this attitude then we're never gonna get anywhere.

[Balcerzak]

Balcerzak (4): Paperblade, Levity, Prims, Blitz

Paperblade (1): Balcerzak, Prims, Levity, Blitz

Levity, Prims, Blitz

Prims, Levity, Blitz

The same correlation on the same two largest wagons.

Something about this doesn't feel right.

[eclipse]

HI RD~!

With that being said, I don't support a Bal wagon. I don't have any problems with anything he's posted, and that wagon analysis at the end is something I don't think I would've caught.

To all those that think my votes aren't being used as pressure, they weren't. Not during the first half of a cycle with no information. I used it to get what I wanted out of people, and ignoring my first vote on scorri (that was truly random), here's what I got:

Bizz - moved vote off of Paperblade

Blitz - thoughts on why he didn't feel the need to move his RVS vote (which I disagree with, but this isn't "make everyone agree with you", this is mafia)

Life - reads

Prims - has yet to give me a serious answer on why he felt the need to announce his nonexistent support for a Blitz lynch when Blitz had two early votes on him (this is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game, because that kind of overreaction to that few votes that early in the game does not sit well with me)

Think I'm passive? Deal with it. I think there's been far too much aggressive tunneling to the point of shooting the town in the foot. I will play how I want to, and if you think that's a reason to vote me, go for it. I'll get the last laugh in postgame. With that being said, I still haven't gotten what I wanted from Prims. Combined with what Bal posted regarding voting patterns, I am perfectly content to leave my vote where it is, and this time as a scum read.

This came across as way too defensive for the statement above it. This, combined with the sudden opinion switch on scorri (who you were having quite a tunneling argument with) means that at the moment, I won't object to a Bizz lynch, either.

[Radiant Dragon]

Really sorry about going AWOL after saying that I was going to actually do something productive, but Real Life happened, and I couldn't get back on until now (except on my phone earlier this morning, but the site's mobile skin doesn't let me stay signed in for some reason, so I can't post). I can understand why this would make me look bad, but I really don't have any excuse.

Still trying to catch up, but I do have a couple of things to say after my first quick glance through what's happened since I left:

- Life going on about OC vs. NOC is nothing new. He's contested the merits between the two forever and a day. It's a null read. That's not to say there's nothing to be gleaned from the rest of the content of his posts, though.

- As for my "Town/Camp/whatever" comment, it's wasn't because I'm unsure of the Town faction's flavor name (U-17 Camp), but rather just using multiple adjectives to describe the Town in an attempt to show that I don't really care what the factions are called.

- Yes, I was using the fact that multiple factions were mentioned in the flavor as a basis (or excuse, whatever you prefer) to start a discussion on the set-up of the game. I knew I wasn't going to get an answer to my question, for the exact reasons Bal posted (none of us exactly need the prompting to discuss such information), but my real intent was to try and start moving us out of RVS and get some real voting going on, which worked better than I thought it would.

- I'm not sure if I'm getting a Town or Scum read from Bal, since his quashing of the flavor topic was beneficial to the Town for the most part, but when he mentions in one of his recent posts words to the effect of "whatever, go ahead and vote for me" doesn't sit well on me, although it could just be me.

- As for Bizz, I her posts are extremely difficult for me to follow on a quick glance due to her posting style and lack of proper grammar, so I ended up skimming over many of them. I need to take a better look at them obviously, but the general gist of them seems to be that she's basically defending herself from the accusations of others and posting wishy-washy feelings of suspicion of Scorri, eclipse etc. Which is not a good thing, at least in my opinion.

Give me a few more minutes to post some more concrete thoughts, looking into the correlation Bal is talking about and getting a better read on some of the other players, especially Kay, Scorri and of course Bizz.

[Blitz]

now looking forward to part two

@Balc, why does the entire thing sound more like you are making excuses more than giving thoughts?

@Helios, you still haven't answered my question and I am still waiting for it

[Prims]

yeah levity blitz and i are the town voting block. if you're gonna post some fancy vote shit with no explanation then you're not really doing anything (except for people who are probably scum being pretentious, like eclipse) since you're not drawing conclusions from it

aside from the above i'm not a fan of bal writing huge defense posts for himself only to go "whoops it's day 1, i don't need to have scum reads because we're gonna mislynch anyway". this is exactly the kind of mindset that guarantees we'll mislynch anyway and d1 interactions won't mean shit if the most people are willing to . eclipse citing bal's wagon analysis as reason to not vote him when he DIDN'T ANALYZE ANYTHING is awful and her seriously still trying to push me giving an opinion on an earlygame wagon as scummy is really weak at this point in the day, she can be scum too. actually i think the former point is worse than bal bringing it up without explaining it in the first place because obvious faked townreads

##Unvote

##Vote: eclipse

re: previous post: i haven't given a serious answer about the blitz "defense" because it should be obvious why i would give an opinion on something that was happening at the time; wagons were beginning to form so i talked about them because i'm town and My Opinions Matter :). also because it means nothing without blitz's flip. i'm also pretty sure i did mention this when i first responded to your post?? which means that i actually have given you a serious answer

basically bal's play seems anti-town while eclipse's play seems like scum. i feel more confident in eclipse lynch at least because bal does at least have the rd vote and everything that bugs me about him could be playstyle conflict. eclipse's posts sound faked to me - the extent of her scumhunting is based on a totally null line i posted very early into the day, bolstering bal's wagon "analysis" (actually just a copy & paste) is ridiculous when neither did any analyzing, and justifying passive play by claiming there's been too much tunneling in this thread is baaaaad when there's actually been very little (most people have just been on bal cuz his ed1 was scummy and he only just recently posted again) and you can vote people you think are scum without tunneling on them just fine.

[Blitz]

HI RD~!

With that being said, I don't support a Bal wagon. I don't have any problems with anything he's posted, and that wagon analysis at the end is something I don't think I would've caught.

To all those that think my votes aren't being used as pressure, they weren't. Not during the first half of a cycle with no information. I used it to get what I wanted out of people, and ignoring my first vote on scorri (that was truly random), here's what I got:

Bizz - moved vote off of Paperblade

Blitz - thoughts on why he didn't feel the need to move his RVS vote (which I disagree with, but this isn't "make everyone agree with you", this is mafia)

Life - reads

Prims - has yet to give me a serious answer on why he felt the need to announce his nonexistent support for a Blitz lynch when Blitz had two early votes on him (this is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game, because that kind of overreaction to that few votes that early in the game does not sit well with me)

Think I'm passive? Deal with it. I think there's been far too much aggressive tunneling to the point of shooting the town in the foot. I will play how I want to, and if you think that's a reason to vote me, go for it. I'll get the last laugh in postgame. With that being said, I still haven't gotten what I wanted from Prims. Combined with what Bal posted regarding voting patterns, I am perfectly content to leave my vote where it is, and this time as a scum read.

This came across as way too defensive for the statement above it. This, combined with the sudden opinion switch on scorri (who you were having quite a tunneling argument with) means that at the moment, I won't object to a Bizz lynch, either.

also Eclipse, what made you suddenly out your reads?

I didn't see any reason for you to out them

[Balcerzak]

- As for my "Town/Camp/whatever" comment, it's wasn't because I'm unsure of the Town faction's flavor name (U-17 Camp), but rather just using multiple adjectives to describe the Town in an attempt to show that I don't really care what the factions are called.

I see.

- I'm not sure if I'm getting a Town or Scum read from Bal, since his quashing of the flavor topic was beneficial to the Town for the most part, but when he mentions in one of his recent posts words to the effect of "whatever, go ahead and vote for me" doesn't sit well on me, although it could just be me.

That was directly aimed at Helios, in an attempt to get him to shit or get off the pot. Obviously I want votes off of me, but if he's going to waffle around with "I could see myself on the Bal wagon"(post 1) "Oh, the Bal wagon is full of easy votes"(post somewhere in the middle) and "Ah, Bal you're scummy mcscumscum, but I don't want to be responsible for hammer shenanigans" (near the end). Obviously not direct quotes, but you get the picture.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Prims

Unless I'm mistaken, aside from an early RVS, you're like the third vote on a wagon, every wagon. Are you afraid to strike out and hit new territory, or is there something else going on here?

[Prims]

(Person A), Levity, Prims, Blitz

(Person B), Prims, Levity, Blitz

you are self-refuting

[scorri]

Actually he's not. Well, sorta.

Paperblade (1): Balcerzak, Prims, Levity, Blitz

He has a point. But, I think it's less of a point than he's making it out to be. Just because you haven't started a wagon doesn't mean anything. I also think that the voting pattern, while interesting, isn't indicative of scum. It'd be silly for scum to vote in a block like that this early in the game. I'm not saying it's impossible, but eh.

Moving on to my own stuff, I find it odd that Bizz went from saying she had a scum feel on me and was wary of me to all of a sudden saying that she hadn't thought I was scum. It's like all of a sudden she backpedals and is trying to make it seem like she wasn't as on my case as she really was. I think that RD is... odd, but I'm not sure why. There's something about his posts that are striking a warning signal in my mind, but I can't explain why. I'll try and figure that out.

Uh... that's all I remember right now, will try and reread in my next break from studying.

[Prims]

blitz, do you still prefer bal lynch or what? you gave a single line response to him but it's hard to tell what you're thinking