Tales of Symphonia Mafia Ver. 1.0

[Jaybee]

Found Shin's voting for SB to have very weak reasoning, because SB was, in a way, asking for Marth's own opinion.

Reason I'm fine with the BBM vote on Prims is that it was based on stuff in the thread, unlike the initial reason for Bizz's vote.

CR how is Shin giving you SK vibes

Really really dislike Shin's #96, reasons should be quite self-explanatory.

[Helios]

All right so a lot of shit happened while I was asleep/not able to post so I'll try to hit on as many things as I can on the moment.

shut up omg

His reaction post towards me was just bad overall, he didn't even explain his feelings behind BBM vote on me vs. Marth vote on BBM, as I touched upon in my notes

My bad my bad you're reasoning wasn't all that clear to me at the time (maybe it was because it was like 2 AM and I was sleepy) so I wanted you to clarify them more. I see where you're coming from now.

I don't think scorri is scummy but wanted to start something since I had no scum reads until I re-read BBM immediately after making that post. I picked her out of a hat to see what people would say because I half-expected she wouldn't post again so soon. But then she did! Whoops. In any case I don't see it not being useless as a reaction test at this point.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

Already explained why his pre-Prims vote content was bad; his vote on me is equally weak since he was in the exact same no-content, all-prods boat until he voted me for doing the same.

@Helios: What's your read on BBM, since you mentioned thinking there's scum between him/Marth? Why's it weaker than your Marth read? Also not particularly fond of your thought on Levity's vote on me, it reads handwavey.

It's not like you to actually mention things are "reaction tests" so early in the game. You usually go with it a little longer.

It was a slight scum read at that point since I felt like his logic wasn't all that great and as a result he was trying to force things a little to look good contributing, but it seemed fake to me. After my post I don't I disagree that it was handwavey to get a town read on Levity -- I thought about it for a bit and came to the conclusion she looked town because of things like tone, meta, and motive. Like I said it seemed sincere, despite how she went about it which she realizes wasn't the best necessarily.

Dear Helios,

You assume I think Prims and Bizz were having an in-town fight when I did no explicitly say so. Hasty assumptions bring forth radical errors. Remember this.

Just because I think its normal does not mean I necessarily find either of them, or both of them town. So far its too early for me to get any good read on them so ok.

Dear Marth,

If you want people to not assume things, hasty or not (and my assumption that you thought it was intown fighting was by no means hasty), then please be more clear than stating "rofl Prims Levity". Then what do you think of them? There's more than enough evidence inthread right now to at least give an idea of what you think. By just saying a little lolcomment you're handwaving the argument, and posting pseudocontribution, which looks scummy. Afterwards, your reaction to people putting votes on you is really bad. I get that the wagon has happened fast, but it's true that your contribution is lacking and all you've really done is defend yourself and not scumhunt. There has been many posts for you to garner some reads on other players. You look way too hesitant and are reacting poorly to the pressure put on you. This looks like scummy play. I'm going to keep my vote on you for now because you haven't really given me a reason to find you town.

Btw name calling? You're better than that man. Refrain from doing something so immature again please.

SB's Marth vote isn't good due to weak reasoning. How is someone coasting this early in the game? BBM's votehop wasn't an RVS vote either. I also don't like how he regards Bizz's reaction as an overreaction when it wasn't one. Also saying Bizz voted me was a misrep trying to make your read look stronger than it really is, which looks scummy to me. I think your interactions afterwards make you look better so I won't vote for you for now.

@Mancer: You keeping your RVS vote on Bizz looked lazy. Your reasoning isn't very strong; half your reasoning is honestly based off her playstyle (the meta part), and the other half (sensitivity and overdefensiveness) is a complete exaggeration and blown out of proportion. Also you found her scummy for switching her RVS vote from Prims to BBM for something she found scummy. How is this scummy at all? And why are you telling someone you'll switch your vote off them if they give you a good answer? You're telling them you're trying to get a reaction but it's like you're warning them to post something good beforehand, which makes your whole idea pointless.

Your Marth vote, though your points are true, seem like a reworded echo of what some of us have stated earlier. Your provocations to piss of Marth are unnecessary, but what you say about Marth still not contributing anything worthwhile is still true. I find you slightly scummy but you're not a lynch priority at this point.

@CR: Your Marth vote was a complete echo of what Mancer which I don't like. Feels lazy. Her votehop onto Shin looked really easy as well since her entire case is "Shin's posts look weird" (paraphrased but you get it). To cite what Prims said, this doesn't look like enough reasoning to take your vote on Marth and looks like a poor reaction to getting called out. Gut tells me she's just noobtown though that's focusing on not getting herself killed like most noobtown do their first couple games.

@Shin: Your SB vote is horrible. You were really vague on your reasoning for wanting to vote BBM beforehand (which for all we know could just be made up) with reasoning that sounds echoey. Your now voting SB for asking questions, which really is trying to provoke reactions out of people to garner reads, which doesn't look horribly scummy to me. Not to mention you earlier shrugged off a few pages of content to respond to an RVS vote on Elie, which doesn't look good. You were scum before in your first game so it's not out of the question to see you as scum again. I think you look scummy right now and I'd lynch you if for some reason Marth isn't going to be lynched.

@Joo: Why are you voting SB over everyone else? Based on the reasoning you've given, it seems like you would have voted...well just about anyone.

Would like some opinions from Obviam when he's able to give some.

Alright that was really long and took forever.

[Ciarre]

BACK FROM LES MIS

Seregil, why are you hunting for 'hypothetical SK' and not mafia?

Am I not supposed to do that? >.< That's the vibe I got.

He just feels all over the place. It doesn't help that I can't make sense of most of what he's saying. Why would JB and SB be more of a cause for suspicion over Marth, whom he doesn't even mention? BBM I can understand, but not his other reasoning for SB.

I also don't like him pointing suspicion at JB for making one meaningful post when he hasn't done much himself.

[Percivalé]

Actually you know what? I think Obviam is scum! Also Mancer doesn't sound like he's trying very hard when I reread his posts, so I think he's deserving of some more pressure, too. More when I get back. Still keeping my vote on BBM for now.

@Seregil, how do we even know if there's an SK in this game though?

[MancerNecro]

Actually you know what? I think Obviam is scum! Also Mancer doesn't sound like he's trying very hard when I reread his posts, so I think he's deserving of some more pressure, too. More when I get back. Still keeping my vote on BBM for now.

It's because I'm genuinely busy in real life because of something, so I'm unable to devote my full attention to it. I will try to help as much as I can during this timeframe though (will be freer starting tomorrow or Sunday).

[j00]

@HeliosWell, I basically mentioned everyone who looks bad in some way. I voted SB because I found him the most scummy on the Marth wagon. His initial post was okay, but all his other posts have contributed as little as he's accused Marth of doing, and they've mostly been short questions asking others for reads.

That said, the entire wagon is bad, including Marth himself. Most of the reasons for voting him has been "No good reason for voting BBM", "you're not contributing", "only coasting" etc and the last votes seemed like bad attempts on sheeping. Though Marth really isn't contributing much when it comes to reads, many on the wagon provided a first post with reads, voted Marth and then said little new.

It's not that SB is much scummier than everyone else on the wagon, he was just the one I found most suspicious. His posts are short, they're mostly questions, and he haven't given many reads himself. Not opposed to lynching just about anyone on that wagon though, especially CR and JB who had some really sheepish votes.

[BBM]

##Vote: Shin

First post is an empty vote against Elie long after a vote like that was acceptable, and completely ignores all the discussion up to that point. After that, he has one or two posts targeting SB, but the reason behind is vote is kind of lame- what exactly is scummy about provoking discussion based around people's perception of him? And then his latest post doesn't have much in it either, and still ignores mostly everything that's happened so far, only making two very small points against me and JB.

[Aleph]

Bizz sweetie I would never try to emotionally frazzle you.

You do a better job than I ever could on your own

Okay you people talk a lot, I need to like stop and read all this shit at some point. NOTNOWTHOUGH because I'm going to play more PSO

fell asleep while posting this oops

[Percivalé]

The last time someone called me 'sweetie' in a game they were scum

[Shinori]

Mancer has told me he won't be around for about a day because of personal reasons. He said he should be back by his tomorrow.

[Bluedoom]

OK so thoughts first(you bet I'm gonna rant sometime... just not this post):

Piss CR(sorry but that's what comes to my mind) gives me newbtown vibes actually. Play seems very similar to Town!Lucina in Filler 9p, and some of you know how well that game went lol. You'll probably tell me "But maarrfff, CR and Lucina are different players!" and then I will say to thou, "Herp Dzerp they're new players so their reactions could be similar!" Basically CR looks like some newbtown having no idea how to contribute. Trying hard but failing hard.

Got a neutral read on Mancer. He's tunneling like a baws, but damn that's actually in his town meta. >_> Obviously kinda pissed that he's tunneling hard on me but w/e.

Shin gives me scum-vibes but it has some ground on meta. Trainwreck saw a similar playstyle from him but I've got no idea if that's his way of playing >_>. I didn't like the SB vote though(how ironic of me)

BBM and SB still ping on my scumdar(and if this wasn't obvious to you looking at my votes, maybe you should re-read more. Can't believe I need to explicitly say "I think so-and-so is scummy and I must tunnel them forever" to qualify that as a scumread) I'm getting vibes from BBM like he keeps hopping from one vote to another but w/e. Scumread not as strong as mine on SB because I'm getting more gut on him than on SB. My read on SB is self-explanatory- its funny that HIS only contribution was saying 'lolMarthsux' (no please don't take that LITERALLY its annoying) but he never bothered doing anything else. GG SB.

Any other reads well, let's just say I need moar posts from Obviam, Scorri, Elieson, JB..... hurr durr. If you don't see yourself in this post it means I need more content/interactions from you OR you just haven't felt odd yet.

[Bluedoom]

Ok I see CR mentioned 'SK'. Ok, correct my opinion of her, now I'm kinda wary about that. O_O

[Ciarre]

ok yeah I know that was weird and I don't know how to say things

but shin still bothers me

[Bluedoom]

Rant time. You saw this coming.

Pardon me, Marth, but do you have any scumreads yet? I think we have a fair amount of material now for you to draw at least something out of. Don't really like this question, it sounds too defensive and he's waving it off with this "it's early in the game" excuse for his lack of reads, plus combined with this:

I do believe I DID state that I had problems with BBM and SB right before my recent post? Honestly, I swear, sometimes I feel people don't read and just want to accuse me.

Except, uh, that was one post. You mean you're happy with throwing contribution in like one or two posts and calling it a day, or what?

Uh ok, I'm gonna have 6 players vote for you with same reasons. Two reasons in fact. 'You suck you aren't contributing' based off of the few posts you have, or 'your contributions suck.' Educate me on how you're going to get reads on all them players that just SAY that and do nothing else. Like, I have a life too, just because my no. of posts are lesser than yours or Prims' or BBM's doesn't mean I'm not trying hard.

Although I agree with you on this, I think there's been enough "Levity is only working off of meta wrt Prims," because this isn't true; and "Bizz is just acting ridiculous," because no, I actually have legitimate suspicions that I would like people to consider. Of course you don't have to agree with them! But if I would kindly ask people to stop meta'ing me and handwaving away my reads as 'earlygame gut feelings' because that's just not the case this time. Meta'ing people like that discourages player growth and stunts people from trying new things.

CMIIW, but there was one post of yours which said that your read on Prims was 100% meta. I don't consider meta alone a legit reason for voting somebody.

Actually if you want me to be perfectly honest, it reminded me of what you did in NPoT so it was 100% meta because that was all I really had to go off of at the time! Not revealing my reason was kind of dumb but at least a reaction came out of it. I don't agree with how you interpreted it though; even if you only posted a vote, the way a vote is placed can say a lot. But I don't think there's much of a need to argue this anymore and it's not even why I'm voting you now anyway haha.

Pretty sure I'm switching to BBM though once I get a vote tally/count up the votes

That post in particular. And later on you say that it wasn't to be taken entirely srsly. Well, if you aren't serious about your reads, how am I supposed to take your opinions srsly?

That was actually still in RVS. The vote switch that BBM made was pretty much random. Your serious vote on it is seriously scummy and over-reactive indeed.

Note: Another post where Bluedoom does a minimal amount of contribution.

Uh can you actually re-read the thread? BBM's vote on Bizz was actually serious, and then he just hand-waved it later saying he doesn't feel that bad about her anymore. (and the recent dropping of his case on Prims also feels like that)

Again, I do have reads, you just can't understand my thought process I suppose, I'm irritated that I have to say "So and so is SCUM" to say its a scum read instead of saying "I don't like so-and-so's behaviour so I'm voting for them. They look scummy."

Also if Voting for a person who's being graspy in his votes, is grasping in itself, doesn't that mean you're contradicting yourself, considering you're grasping too now? That reasoning is like inception, srsly.

Finally your only contribution has been calling me scum, which like, more than 1/3rd of the players have done. Or tunneling Bizz and taking her Helios wariness srsly/consider it overreaction, I can assure you there have been people who've done that too. So can you come up with some new contribution that doesn't involve tunneling?

[Iris]

host, I request votals, I'd do them myself but no time tonight

This is mostly towards Elie, but I know some of you guys are guilty of it. When you reference posts such as saying #6, please link the post, it makes my life and possibly many others when trying to understand the argument. Oh Obviam said the same thing. Point stands though.

IDK I still don't like BBM's posts, like generally calling attention to inactives the way he did is kind of scummy. And then just the sort of "trying to hard" feel I get. :F Vote stays until I reread and find someone scummier.

Piss CR(sorry but that's what comes to my mind) gives me newbtown vibes actually. Play seems very similar to Town!Lucina in Filler 9p, and some of you know how well that game went lol. You'll probably tell me "But maarrfff, CR and Lucina are different players!" and then I will say to thou, "Herp Dzerp they're new players so their reactions could be similar!" Basically CR looks like some newbtown having no idea how to contribute. Trying hard but failing hard.

But Marfffff, remember scum!Elie from SFMM2? Most people (me kind of included) considered him newb!town because of his ridiculous actions. I dunno, I just sort of see the whole newb thing going either way, I was never a fan of that kinda logic. But that aside, CR doesn't seem scummy to me atm.

[Bluedoom]

In what I've seen in mafia, newb!scum tend to be highly paranoid, and tend to waffle big time. Look at me in GSM, or Scorri(her second game) and Timp in Schoolteacher, or Subieko in CPM. They also kinda give excuses for not contributing or something, I dunno, I've generally been accurate in guessing newb!scum and newb!town.

Newb!Town are apathetic and they don't really have an idea of what to do. Like Aere, Mancer(I read him right until he did something very unexpected) and Lucina(who I lynched for info lol). CR fits into this category, IMO.

[Shinori]

I'll get votals in like 30-40 minutes.

[Helios]

Actually you know what? I think Obviam is scum!

Would you like to explain this or is this just a joke/provocation/reaction test?

Marth and BBM's reads feel a little fake to me. Half of Marth's reads have to do with meta while the others sound oddly similar to what others have been blaming them for. This is obviously just spec, but his BBM read could be a bus attempt to gain towncred while the stronger SB read is a lynch attempt. BBM's case on Shin seems like an easy vote since Shin really hasn't done much, is new to the game, and doesn't seem to really know what he's doing. BBM's case on him has good logic of his own while adding in what others have said, but it feels like it's trying too hard to look legit and making a mountain out of a mole hill. I mean I find him scummy as well, but not quite as much as others. It also feels like lately he's been shrugging off a lot of the attacks on him, maybe in fear of looking "overly defensive".

[Shinori]

These should be correct.

Votals

(5) Bluedoom: Helios, scorri, SB, JB, Mancer, Seregil

(4) BBM: Seregil, Bluedoom, Prims, Bizz, Iris, Elieson,

(3) SB: Bluedoom, Shin, J00,

(0) Prims: Bizz, BBM

(2) Shin: Elieson, Seregil, BBM,

(1) Seregil: Iris, Prims,

(0) Elieson: Shin

(0) Helios: scorri, Prims, Helios

(0) scorri: BBM, Prims

(1) Bizz: Mancer, BBM, Prims, Aleph

(0) Iris: JB

[Bluedoom]

my vote is on SB, not BBM

[BBM]

Why do you think I'm trying too hard with my cases and not being legit, Helios? I can understand why you think that the case against Shin might be taking advantage of the fact that he's a new player, but I'm not going to give him or CR a pass for behaviour I think is scummy.

[Prims]

##Vote: Shin

First post is an empty vote against Elie long after a vote like that was acceptable, and completely ignores all the discussion up to that point. After that, he has one or two posts targeting SB, but the reason behind is vote is kind of lame- what exactly is scummy about provoking discussion based around people's perception of him? And then his latest post doesn't have much in it either, and still ignores mostly everything that's happened so far, only making two very small points against me and JB.

So what happened to your thoughts on the Marf wagon?

Seregil still needs to explain why Shin is a better vote than Marf, or if she even still thinks Marf is scum or not.

[Prims]

Shinori has marf voting twice btw

[BBM]

I think Shin is more likely to be scum than CR right now, because I think Shin ignoring 90% of the thread's activity and choosing to nitpick at little things is worse than CR sheeping. Sheeping is something a lot of newbs do, whether they're town or scum, because they're not really sure what to say or do or how to scumhunt. But the nitpicking at little things is something scum do a lot more often than town because they don't want to associate themselves much with the big wagons or actually contribute.

[Bluedoom]

Marth and BBM's reads feel a little fake to me. Half of Marth's reads have to do with meta while the others sound oddly similar to what others have been blaming them for.

1. While I don't solely rely on gut or meta, meta subconsciously influences everyone's reads. If I had to look at the current situation in a truly objective fashion I would declare almost the whole wagon on me as scum simply for stacking votes which reasoning I don't like(and you didn't like either.) Meta gives me the idea of the players' thinking.

2. It is perfectly normal to have similar thoughts to the opinions of others, especially when one's timezone is like, 12 hours ahead of the rest of the players. YOU of all people should know that. Fun Fact: I haven't seen you poke at JB even though his reasoning for voting me is very similar to yours and scorri's. Or for that matter, the fact that his only contribution has been voting me. Any thought about JB?

Speaking of which, which notion do you feel stronger about? Your earlier notion that one of BBM and I is scum, or that we're scumbuddies? And depending on that notion, do your reads change? Would like a link(reads shall we say) between this post of yours and your earlier content post.