Group Mafia -- Game Over

[Grace]

Manix, you're in that sandwich of people that I linked, so I don't have a problem with you~! I do have a problem with the fact that the number of votes on me indicates that there's town on my wagon. Lazy towns lose the game for the rest of the town (source: every single scum victory in the games I hosted). My wagon looks lazy. Thus, my irritation.

mmhmm I'm reading over the thread again now and I agree that there's definitely lazy town/opportunism, post is incoming

[Grace]

I see this as a weak jump back. Your suggestion to lynch two simultaneous players on just a Modifier claim and nothing else concerns me. I know activity is rather lul, but that's just a risky idea more than anything else, and I'd rather see you actually do something to hunt for scum.

remind me how it's a jump back at all? and as clipsey said, she acknowledged the possibility of Hated ___ being a thorn in the plan, and she's not exactly pushing the idea hard at all, is she now?

That gentle rolefish attempt on me without even suggesting anything on BBM is vague, but I think something's there.

uhhhhhhhhh what. please tell me when anything of the sort was implied that she picked you over BBM or what have you

My initial eclipse vote was obviously a joke-vote, but recent skim suggest it couldn't hurt to keep it there due to potential lazy rolefish, but I want to read up on that situation a bit more before I leave it there for solid, or decide where it needs to move to.

please follow up on this because and Source Your Shit because I'm sensing people are sheeping lazily at this point

largely because as I was reading through the thread I got a very passive manipulating feel from her. It seems to me like she's trying to get other people to do stuff without actually committing to much herself.

Source it before saying it please because honestly I don't buy it

Also your idea for testing hated modifiers seems like a weird push that could accidentally get someone lynched.

see what I said to elie above, she's not exactly pushing it hard, is she?

(i know i wasn't going to say much about clipsey content but this is a rebuttal to the people who have said it)

re clipsey dropping the test point: imo it's nothing particularly relevant to her alignment. some of you are complaining that pushing the test is weird (scorri for example) but others are complaining about how she dropped it so quickly (SB), then others who did both (elieson)

honestly the only people whose votes on clipsey are justified imo are Shinori (prodding for reads/content) and SB (for much the same, although did mention the lynchtest point which irks me a little, as well as a meta point to SSBU, but it's not enough to make me feel like he's being opportunistic)

[Elieson]

It proves two roles, and if Elieson is lying for whatever reason, he goes down the next day. If we don't get a lynch off because of numbers, we have two lynches.

Acting off of two reasons that I can see here. First, suggesting an easy lynch (that reallybsoesnt come from a great source -Ala CC modifiers-, and testing something that could ever-so-easily boot two players out of the game in one day phase...it just doesn't bode well with me (as I've already addressed).

If you are Hated (something else), this might be a problem, but eh. It's better than the nothing that's happening so far, and I want discussion about this idea.

Quoted BBM (so i see it as a reply to BBM), and it's better than anything thus far? Leading a lynch based on rolespec is one thing, but modifier spec eeehhh, and since you specifically said [the bolded part], I'm seeing it as a pluck against BBM specifically, with no mention to my Hated being the stranger thing.

[Fera]

##Unvote

##Vote: Shin

well here goes, possible incomprehension

keeping the RVS BBM vote on him when his (joke or otherwise) reasoning for doing so was deflected (votehop doesn't exist)

seems pretty eager to jump on BBM himself, idk about the latter

I'm really not feeling like voting for Eclipse because I don't really have much to go about her save for trying to get a more effective scumhunt going for some reason?

... actually that might be a solid reason to vote for her

eh

still keeping this vote for the moment, I'm not sure about it

most of the thread terminology flying over my head doesn't help lol

[Fera]

seems pretty eager to jump on BBM himself, idk about the latter

meant "idk about BBM jumping on Shin"

bleh

[charlie_]

I don't think the vague rolefishing thing means much since Boron removed the non-zero vanilla thing from the op (it was there originally iirc), and being just a hated vanilla sounds really weak, especially with two of them in the game.

Still not liking Rapier. His content's pretty thin on the ground and what he has isn't doing him any favors either.

I'm not too sure he's been reading tbh, because he posted this

I'm buying this case on Clipsey. I really dislike it when someone tells you to do something and stop nitpicking when you're doing the exact same thing -- and imo, Clipsey didn't contribute at all to the discussion. Her only relevant post is the one where she says she'd rather tie Elie with BBM to check out their claims, which is terrible imo since they could both be town and we're taking way too much risk over a simple issue. I'd switch my vote to her if I knew how many are voting her. I don't want a hammer just yet.

when votals came just before his post, then made another post unvoting for no explained reason, and not replacing it. He said his reads were very vague on everyone else due to activity, but didn't say anything about the active people he listed? You didn't like me for sheeping earlier, what happened to that? Don't like this, combined with the post I mentioned earlier...

##Unvote

##Vote: Rapier

I still want clipsey (and others) to come back and give reads though.

Whoa I thought I posted this 3 hours ago what.

[Balcerzak]

Claiming Hated

Uhh OMG bbm can't be hated because I'm hated (well hated _____)

Unless boron hates everyone in her group.

Actually that might be a legit possibility :0

In this situation, ED1, I honestly cannot see any possible reason for Mafia to counterclaim, especially for an early 1 vs 1 when they're behind in numbers, haven't had a chance to use any one-shot abilities, and have no guarantee, or even any decent reason whatsoever (faked cop claims, etc.) they'll win the 50-50. That's initially giving me a higher estimate of town Elieson, but in no way indicates that BBM is scum. BBM's post was the second post of the game proper, and there was no opportunity for him to coordinate with any potential scumbuddies (unless they were allowed to access their quicktopic and chat in the confirmation phase). Leaping off with a half-cocked fakeclaim like that as a mafia, or even a legit claim, without discussing with your partners is a risky ploy that seems unlikely, IMO.

Aw, I missed RVS.

##Vote: BBM

Firstly, that meme was horrible. Second, and less importantly, you seem eager to jump on Shinori!

This vote is kind of downright terrible, using an RVS reasoning after explicitly acknowledging it's too late to RVS? I know other people have mentioned similar things, but this just stand out like a sore thumb to me, especially when you come back later and say that if you had two votes you'd cast another one on BBM.

It proves two roles, and if Elieson is lying for whatever reason, he goes down the next day. If we don't get a lynch off because of numbers, we have two lynches. If you are Hated (something else), this might be a problem, but eh. It's better than the nothing that's happening so far, and I want discussion about this idea.

No, no, no, no, no.

Let's compare a Hated test to a test that's actually useful, a Mayor test, shall we?

In the Hated test, the only way to win, is to die, at which point we've lost the confirmed role from the list of eligible players. It's like the Salem Witch trials all over again. In a Mayor test, the person undergoing the test has to vote between two tied scummy lynch choices. They're nowhere near the chopping block, and if they pass, they remain among the living.

In the Hated test, a successful result deprives the town of a lynch. Lynch tie forces no lynch, and removes town's most reliable way of eliminating scum for a phase. On top of that, this lack of lynch is not compensated for in any way, by giving us a clear scum to follow through on. In the Mayor test, a failed result is the one that leads to a no lynch, as the "Mayor" was full of shit. In exchange, the "Mayor" becomes the clear-cut lynch target for the following day, as some small measure of consolation.

This was a genuinely terrible idea on your part, eclipse, and I expected much better from you.

Oh, speaking of stuff, apparently Xinnidy saw fit to not claim that I am Lover ------ and as such as long as it's not MYLO/LYLO I take one extra vote to get lynched.

technically the modifier is called "Loved" but same difference

@BBM: beloved is the modifier where the next day phase is skipped on death, whereas loved takes one more vote to be lynched

Wait wait wait. Lover? As in you have a partner, and bad shit happens when one of the two of you are lynched? Or Loved, as in the vote modification clause I've never heard of before this?

Explain why this is a rolefish. Normally, I hate definitions, but I want this in terms of the definition of a rolefish, because I think most of you don't know understand what it is. That goes for every single person with a vote on me. If you're going to accuse a Hated test of being that, then I want a distinct, clear idea of how the hell I can possibly get any sort of useful information out of "if there's another part to the Hated, this might not be a good idea." If I realize that my idea may backfire, I am damn well going to present both sides of it, because withholding such information to make myself look good is stupid.

For the rest of you, especially those that weren't in that sandwich of links that I posted, who decided to vote for me, you should be horribly ashamed of yourselves for not understanding how it's impossible to push people who aren't there. In short, this is a lazy, ill-informed wagon made up of a lot of people who I couldn't get a read on because they weren't here.

I'm quite irritated with the fact that this kind of idiocy turned into a wagon, so you'll get reads when I've cooled off. If you guys want, I can rip your votes to shreds, one by one, but I will NOT be gentle about it. I will leave this up to the people with votes on me.

Rolefish: Attempting to cleverly extract information about a player's role.

Your post: "Are you plain Hated, or is there more to it?"

Anyway, the rolefish thing isn't the true reason I have problems with that post, it's the plan in general. People throwing around the word and the attacks in general caught enough of my attention during my catch-up skim, however, that I made a note of it, and went back and gave it the careful consideration it deserves.

please follow up on this because and Source Your Shit because I'm sensing people are sheeping lazily at this point

My shit is sourced.

[Balcerzak]

If you're going to accuse a Hated test of being that, then I want a distinct, clear idea of how the hell I can possibly get any sort of useful information out of "if there's another part to the Hated, this might not be a good idea." If I realize that my idea may backfire, I am damn well going to present both sides of it, because withholding such information to make myself look good is stupid.

Because I missed completely replying to this point:

There was no real need to include that line anyway, as Elieson already claimed in his very first claim that he was Hated (something else), so it should already have been patently obvious it was a terrible idea. You were either going fishing for BBM, or playing sloppy.

[scorri]

Welp, I can type. Bal: I meant to say Loved as described. I apparently just can't type. Good job catching that.

As for sourcing my stuff, ok, lets see.

So eclipse starts off with asking about her idea but doesn't really push it. She kinda just lets everyone else discuss it and once people start doing that she drops it in favor of

I am getting a lot of nothing out of half the players. Much as I'd like to traditionally scumhunt, it's not easy when that much of the game isn't here. That being said. . .

##Unvote

##Vote: Balcerzak

I saw you in here earlier. What do you have to say?

So she pokes at Bal to try and get him to do something.

Next,

Are you guys done nitpicking? The only one with a vote on anyone relevant is Manix on BBM, and all I see are side comments about BBM that don't push anything. In other words, I think this vein is a waste of posts, time, and reads.

and

Neither do I. All I see is petty bickering, which is why I'm getting frustrated.

She's basically all "you guys are wasting your time here, you should do something else." when the thing had largely died down yet she provides nothing else to discuss. She's frustrated with what's being discussed, indicating that she wants to talk about other things yet isn't offering up anything of her own. She's distancing herself from the current conversation by not adding in anything except that it's a waste of time while at the same time encouraging other people to do something by telling them they're wasting their time.

Finally,

I am. It's called waiting for the other half of the game to show up, because the active people don't really warrant a vote.

That's not doing something. That's called doing nothing while having an excuse for not doing anything.

Basically, until eclipse had a decent number of votes on her, she did very little. She came up with an idea but then didn't push it at all and instead let others discuss it and then tried to direct conversation without actually contributing anything herself. Thus the passive and manipulating feel I got from her.

[Shin]

Yo, I am all the existing! Now I've stopped being silly, I can actually play the game!

##Unvote

For a start, I don't really care about Hated/Loved/SomewhatFriendlyWith. If we do have multiples of each drifting about, it's no indication of alignment at all. I don't see why anyone would claim it, and testing it's even sillier. Why would someone lie about it?

##Vote: eclipse

All I see is a lot complaining, and nothing else. It's one thing to be inactive because half the game is missing, but you're not doing very much at all. Fera's reasoning on me's pretty weak, but I can kinda see it considering my activity. Shinori, you can have my opinion on SB now. He's actually actively looking into things. Seems legit to me!

[Sunwoo]

Votals:

Serious Bananas (0): Rapier

Shin (2): Xinnidy, BBM, Shinori, Fera

Manix (0): BBM, Rapier

BBM (1): Elieson, CT075, Manix, Serious Bananas, Shin

Xinnidy (0): Xinnidy, eclipse

Shinori (0): Fera, Elieson, BBM

eclipse (5): Balcerzak, Shinori, Elieson, Serious Bananas, scorri, Shin

Rapier (1): Serious Bananas

Elieson (0): Manix

Balcerzak (1): eclipse

Not voting: CT075, Rapier

With 12 alive, 4 votes are required for a lynch and 8 votes are required for a hammer.

You guys have 1 day, 6 hours, and 45 minutes left.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Sangyul

[Grace]

warning: I have had like 5 hours sleep, in a 3/2 split (I read posts 2 hours ago when I was awake then)) and I am likely to be incoherent if I tried to post now so yeah sorry about that

[Grace]

One thing though before my brain shuts down:

This was a genuinely terrible idea on your part, eclipse, and I expected much better from you.

this screams AtE but I'm not quite sure what to think of it yet. anyone else wanna take a stab at figuring out what's behind this?

[Elieson]

What's AtE?

[Grace]

appeal to emotion

[scorri]

The transparent one is for when I'm scum because you don't even see me as I stab you in the back.

The transparent one is in his sig now. Therefore he is clearly scum

##Vote:BBM

[BBM]

I'd rather see Eclipse actually "shred the votes on her to pieces" if she can, because I don't particularly like her defence as it stands. Yeah, there were very few posters in that time period, but that doesn't mean just voting for someone who isn't there is enough. Even if you don't think that any of the posters in that time period were scummy enough to be voted, that doesn't mean you couldn't have done something else. Saying you're frustrated with the activity happening isn't enough to actually turn that activity for the better. I also would like reads when you've cooled down, Eclipse.

Shin's vote on Eclipse is pretty opportunistic though. It's pretty much the same reasoning as everyone else and feels like he's just wagoning on. His defence against the Fera vote isn't very good either. You have to source as a defender too. Why is what he's saying weak?

[BBM]

Shin hasn't explained the votehop thing either, AFAIK.

[Rapier]

argh I was making a post but then I acted like a derp and closed the window

So, I'll do a tl;dr version of it, starting with a ##Vote: Eclipse, because I learned she's got only 5 votes on her (6 with mine).

And I'll answer this comment from SB:

when votals came just before his post, then made another post unvoting for no explained reason, and not replacing it. He said his reads were very vague on everyone else due to activity, but didn't say anything about the active people he listed? You didn't like me for sheeping earlier, what happened to that? Don't like this, combined with the post I mentioned earlier...

I did explain why I didn't vote her. Also, I gave my thoughts, I didn't just sheep like you did with BBM, as you just said 'hey shinori y so scum'.

And I'll address Clipsey now: You said you had no reads within that sandwich of posts you linked, but what about now? I sincerely hope you won't stick with this absurdly risky and unnecessary plan of yours. About the rolefishing part, that's how I see your comment saying you'd like to learn more about their alignment.

[Rapier]

Also Manix stop being so flippy-floppy and siding with Clipsey so suddenly.

[Grace]

it's like you didn't read my post (url=http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39018&view=findpost&p=2341093]tip for you[/url])

[Grace]

it's like you didn't read my post (tip for you)

[Shinori]

I'll get a post here soon. Sorry haven't been feeling good.

[Sunwoo]

Marth has been subbed in for Cam.

There are 23 hours left.

[Balcerzak]

##Unvote:

##Vote: Shin

eclipse is getting too many votes too fast, we have multiple hated claims running around, and I don't feel comfortable honestly with anyone getting this close to L-1 with a full day left. Considering she's been at work all day, and hasn't had a chance to respond either, I feel this is warranted. Moving to my secondary scumread until the waters calm.