Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[BBM]

@manix: Just cause I looked at the logs Blitz was asking the same thing about shipping targets. I didn't like it and that was kind of what I meant by I don't like his N0 bs in my first post. But I really don't think it's something toooo bad.

P.S. I just played as ad heimerdinger and beat a vayne bot lane. ^.^

You said earlier that it was just general Blitz stuff and not pertaining to this game... Omission is one thing, lying outright is another.

[Shinori]

The vote it'self is rvs. I see what blitz did N0 as normal general n0 stuff for him. I didn't lie about anything.

[charlie_]

Did you guys break out of RVS while I was asleep?

Ether have my babies.

i claim postgame cop

i can read postgame before the game actually happens and i know everybody's roles and have the option to instantly kill them by adding a scathing remark about them in postgame

i also know who wins

claim2menao

Huzzah for being useless? Except not really huzzah.

Let me extrapolate: If you were to ask me about my vote on BBM, you'd actually find I have more of a reason then "lolRVS, policy vote"

Remember that we had OC N0. Through the little talking BBM and I had together, something didn't quite feel right, but that's just a small gut feeling (and possibly even though most of us didn't have an alignment at that point, I still wanted to vote him because of it)

I think scorri pointed out the scumslip earlier, but nyeh. I think Manix's defense is ok and checking over my logs with him the most incriminating thing that I could find was "i'm taking bets i become a mafia", and I think his later play was alright. Keeping my eyes on you regardless though, we'll see how things go.

##vote Manix

Because you're annoying me, and that makes it not random, right? lolRVSover

Except not actually. It's because you lied about your reasons for voting. Want out of the RVS faster? Don't pretend you're random or policy voting if you're not.

Dunno why we would have bothered to ask you why you voted BBM when you so nicely put your reasons right there...

Don't like the reasoning here, townies don't always tell the truth. See last game where Eli lied about being a 1 shot vig when really he had 2 shots. There's also playing suboptimally to gain reactions off of other players, or faking reports (see every prims game ever,) which is pretty valid in early stages of the game where there isn't much to go off of.

because i don't have anything particularly serious to say?

You got nothing out of those last few posts?

My vote is staying on Cam till he gets some reads out.

[Grace]

Strege I see you lurking up the thread and I did a few hours ago iirc: Do you have any opinions at all?

[Grassbridger]

Manix: I can see how my vote could be seen as opportunistic in context, but I had only read through #34 when I wrote my post, so I hadn't even seen scorri's question about your so-called "slip", much less people piling onto it. (Notice how I didn't address that at all and had completely different reasoning from that set of posts.)

Please explain how you get a better reaction through saying "BBM/policy vote" than you do from saying "BBM/something bothered me n0".

If you want to be calling posts passive-aggressive, you may also want to consider your use of the phrase "Newsflash".

Anyway, the real issue I have is that you said "If you were to ask me about my vote on BBM", as if that is a thing we should have done. Well, you said it was policy voting. You didn't indicate that it was based on anything actually game-related. You essentially said "this vote has nothing to do with the game" by calling it a policy vote. (OR I'm just a newbie who doesn't understand what "policy vote" means, that's possible too and I acknowledge that. But I think I get it.) So, again:

-why should we have asked you to elaborate or assumed that your vote had more to it? and

-how does what you said put any pressure on BBM?

Your self-QT quote is... not entirely accurate. There are exceptions to the things you stated. But it reads like a state-of-mind comment and not something reconstructed after the fact to cover your tracks, so... reluctantly...

##Unvote (Manix)

##vote Xinnidy

-->ok you can change your Shinori vote or explain it now

SB: Townies don't always tell the truth but mafia lie more often. So finding a lie a bit scummy is not bad reasoning. Although I acknowledge that this was more a lie of omission than contradiction.

[Grace]

Please explain how you get a better reaction through saying "BBM/policy vote" than you do from saying "BBM/something bothered me n0".

Reactions don't necessarily have to be through the content you want to address: I've kept votes on people well past RVS to get people to react to my votepark (eg: Group Mafia, where I left my vote on BBM well past RVS to try and get a reaction out of him, but to no avail)

If you want to be calling posts passive-aggressive, you may also want to consider your use of the phrase "Newsflash".

Sorry about that, yes I'm a hypocrite, but it still doesn't change my point.

Anyway, the real issue I have is that you said "If you were to ask me about my vote on BBM", as if that is a thing we should have done.

Did you read my explanation?

Let's consider: I was stating my reasons so people didn't think me a hypocrite in regards to what I had already said about taking responsibility for my "random" actions.

I was posing a hypothetical "If you had asked me, I would have done this" situation, which still holds true.

Well, you said it was policy voting. You didn't indicate that it was based on anything actually game-related. You essentially said "this vote has nothing to do with the game" by calling it a policy vote.

I called it a policy vote as a joke (BBM kept rolling hostile 3rds and we joked that we would policy him every game); and hid the true intention of the vote until required.

-why should we have asked you to elaborate or assumed that your vote had more to it?

Preemptively beating people to calling me out on not having any rhyme or reason to my votes, ie taking responsibility, see above

-how does what you said put any pressure on BBM?

A vote is a vote, and if more people had voted him we'd start getting reactions. Votes don't always have to pressure the person you're voting, but others in the game who choose to address it.

Your self-QT quote is... not entirely accurate. There are exceptions to the things you stated.

Mind elaborating on this? I'm interested in what you think about that.

But it reads like a state-of-mind comment and not something reconstructed after the fact to cover your tracks, so... reluctantly...

Why reluctantly? If there's still doubt, just say it.

(leaving a note here: I will address this again later if it becomes relevant)

[CT075]

Why is that? Since then, there was further argument between Manix and Scorri, and Manix was voted for by two people. Why do you have nothing serious to say about that? Shinori is also guilty of not really commenting on what had happened, but you followed it up with another post just now that said nothing, so I'll keep my vote here for now.

voting me isn't going to magically make me generate opinions

i'm not going to bother trying to string together some coherent post solely over "oh hey someone doesn't like RVS what else is new"

[CT075]

on a slightly unrelated note i'll be out for most of the rest of today (i might be back once or twice) because i'm playing league; maokai's vengeful maestrom is amazing

[CT075]

lastly before i forget ##unvote for now

[Grace]

the threat of multiple people wanting your lynch should be though, Cam

i'm not going to bother trying to string together some coherent post solely over "oh hey someone doesn't like RVS what else is new"

also i'd like to mention that there's more in the thread than just what you said, I'd go read and give opinions on that stuff (Shinori's Blitz comment, for example) instead of playing off the content as just one topic

[Grassbridger]

Manix: "reluctantly" because I have no reads now--I don't know if you were ever a scumread, but you were something. Cam doesn't get my vote until his opinions remain absent for a bit longer (if he's going to be out most of the day and not doing anything actively scummy then there's no point voting for him for pressure); Shinori's annoyance with Blitz strikes me as genuine and a nullread.

OK, I see your point with respect to voting BBM. Not sure I agree, but fine. And you have a good point regarding my second question. (Hence my vote for Xinnidy I think, it was 5am and I failed to make the connection between your logic and my vote.)

And yeah I can easily think of exceptions to "mafia doesn't want information to spread" and "mafia wants to leave the game in RVS". For the first one, role information and such can be very useful to the mafia (like knowing who the cop is). And as for the RVS bit: if mafia assumes that the game is going to get out of RVS at some point on D1 (which seems like a reasonable assumption) then they're better off getting it going when there's wagons on only non-mafia people, rather than trying to let RVS drag on and maybe a mafia gets a wagon against them.

[Grace]

Manix: "reluctantly" because I have no reads now--I don't know if you were ever a scumread, but you were something.

Alright, noted. So would it be fair to say that your vote was reactionary, over being more thought out?

For the first one, role information and such can be very useful to the mafia (like knowing who the cop is).

Fair point.

And as for the RVS bit: if mafia assumes that the game is going to get out of RVS at some point on D1 (which seems like a reasonable assumption) then they're better off getting it going when there's wagons on only non-mafia people, rather than trying to let RVS drag on and maybe a mafia gets a wagon against them.

Yes and no; I can understand mafia wanting RVS to get going when it's on town wagons but the thing is, more information and interactions are still going to come to light in the process, which can harm the mafia. If the mafia are good about it, they can probably let it slide through, but eh.

[Grace]

Yes I'm aware I called Grass's vote opportunistic and now I'm saying it could be reactionary, but I'm liking his responses more as the game progresses

[Grassbridger]

So would it be fair to say that your vote was reactionary, over being more thought out?

Oooh that's such a negative characterization of my thought process... but... yes.

[Grace]

Oooh that's such a negative characterization of my thought process... but... yes.

I was originally gonna say kneejerk soooooooo it could have been worse :3

that said that's still okay, reactionary is fine.

[BBM]

Cam, you're defending yourself against what I say, but not actually going to any effort to address or correct the root cause of my vote- the fact that you're not saying anything about what's happening in this thread. Maybe you don't necessarily have to find anything that's happened so far scummy. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it and give your opinion. So my vote stays here until you do that.

I don't personally like Shinori's explanation for the Blitz vote, idk. If he didn't want to out that it was over some N0 fishing when I asked him, okay, but then why do it when he did? Presumably he was waiting for something from Blitz. What happened to that?

[Shinori]

##Unvote:

RVS thingie over. My eyes hurt at the moment and I have been constantly falling asleep today. It's not call. ;/

@manix: Just cause I looked at the logs Blitz was asking the same thing about shipping targets. I didn't like it and that was kind of what I meant by I don't like his N0 bs in my first post. But I really don't think it's something toooo bad.

P.S. I just played as ad heimerdinger and beat a vayne bot lane. ^.^

This was in regards to manix who had linked some logs with BBM where BBM had asked to know Manix's shipping targets. My response was that Blitz had did this too and I didn't really like that. However that is generaly blitz fishing. He does that every game in OC. So when I told BBM it was general stuff I wasn't lying. I just chose not to go into too much detail about it.

##Vote: SB

Early gut feeling kind of. His posts are reminding me slightly of avatar mafia. He's also leaving his vote from RVS on Cam which seems kind of easy to me. No one else you would like to pressure at all SB?

[charlie_]

You. 3 votes on someone (theoretically) should do a lot more to pressure than than just one of them.

I don't see what's lazy about keeping an RVS vote in the same place if there's a valid reason to.

[Balcerzak]

##Unvote Manix

Still don't really like the reason given for the "most of us" claim, but with no other scummy behaviour, there's more I can be doing with my time and my vote. It achieved its purpose of pulling out additional information and discussion, anyway.

On a somewhat serious note, what do people think about outing our partner hints? I think there could be some merit in knowing who your partner is after all. Not really sure how the maf could use it.

also wrt partner hints I feel like that would work for OC better than NOC talky

I find it disappointing Cam can have opinions on this, but not opinions on anything else.

Also, this does seem like a classic fish attempt from SB, though it was soundly and quickly shot down (in no small part because this game also includes the OC phase aspects). I'm not gonna be too hasty and say that's a definite motive behind his early call for disseminating priveleged information, because hey, even town!SB could easily have reasons for wanting to get out of the dark, and I do know from my N0 conversation with him he was pretty curious about setup spec and everything, and this may just be another aspect of that.

lastly before i forget ##unvote for now

Cam, I believe you've been yelled at for empty unvotes before (but I'm not about to go game history digging to provide references). It's kind of frowned on, as it deprives us of what little we had, and can sometimes be used by scum to scoot under the radar between wagon pushing. Not saying this is what you're doing, because your RVS vote on SB was just that, RVS. Still, please provide content when you return.

Shinori, are you referring to N0 bullshit in general, or specifically this game?

General.

@manix: Just cause I looked at the logs Blitz was asking the same thing about shipping targets. I didn't like it and that was kind of what I meant by I don't like his N0 bs in my first post. But I really don't think it's something toooo bad.

First, Shinori, for the love of everything you hold dear, when the post you're quoting for a reply is separated by many other posts, use the quote function. Otherwise tracking down what you're saying and to who will be a nightmare, especially on rereading the thread, which is just good practice that I encourage everybody to engage in from time to time.

The vote it'self is rvs. I see what blitz did N0 as normal general n0 stuff for him. I didn't lie about anything.

I'm interested in pursuing this interesting exchange a little further.

##Vote: Shinori

fmpov it looks like you completely contradicted yourself here.

Also, please please, I want to see content from Elieson, Kay, Blitz. It's getting close to 24 hours now. I know traditional excuses of Kay and the weekends and all, and Blitz and timezones/computer access, but still... Also, more content from Sterge and Xinnidy would be great.

I'm going to have to probably reread again to get a solid bearing on Grassbridger, but I'm gonna leave that for another time, I have some yardwork I should be doing.

[Balcerzak]

Apparently I was cut by Shinori, should have used preview. I'll address this later, as I said, was about to head outside.

[charlie_]

The suggestion was to give something to talk about early on, even though I expected it would probably be shot down.

[CT075]

around for ten minutes because i'm sick of this essay and the pizza place is taking forever to deliver food and my dormmates are all being stuffy and and and and

let's see, opinions

grass/manix argument looks like infighting to me; i really didn't see an issue with what manix did, it's not like the lie really led to anything. if he'd lied about roles or results or whatever, it was only about whether it was policy or not. on grass's side, his reasoning does make sense even if i don't necessarily agree with it

the ether rvs thing i didn't feel needed an actual post because i'd rather use my coherence quota on this essay

on a side note i feel like there are a lot of votes on me

[eclipse]

Since I get the feeling that SOMEONE is subtly hinting about votals, your ever-loving host will comply. UGH.

Bananas (1): Shinori

BBM (1): Strege

Cam (3): Bananas, BBM, Manix

Grassbridger (2): Ether, scorri

Shinori (2): Balcerzak, Xinnidy

Xinnidy (1): Grassbridger

No one: Blitz, Cam, Elieson, Kay

58 hours remain

pizza

Edited May 5, 2013 by eclipse

[Balcerzak]

Whoa, BBM, you've been pushing on Shinori all this time and that's not even where your vote is? What gives man? Strege is still your priority?

[charlie_]

Bal, BBM's vote is on Cam, not Strege.