Big NOCers - Game Over

[Kaoz]

@Raymond

Can you elaborate on your line regarding #409? Like, what do you find odd about it and do you make anything off it?

Also, I didn't do as much rereading as I would've liked (limited myself to some ISOs in fact), but from what I gathered so far, I can't help but feel good about BBM's posts after all.

I had some minor issues with j00 that I'm not completely sure how to interpret at this point - namely I feel like she misinterprets some people's comments, but I can't tell if it's on purpose or not. #144 at the bottom, Vhaltz didn't say that SB will get better, just that he has confidence in reading SB correctly over a longer period of time, and then in #200 she says that Vhaltz assumes I'm town when no such thing was present in what she quoted.

Basically I'm not sure if those are genuine mistakes or mafia trying to cast doubt on non-scum reads.

I guess #236 is worth pointing out as well - why do you need a town read on someone to defend them? Maybe it's just me, but I think it's perfectly legitimate to bring up possible reasons to explain someone's actions while being undecided on whether those reasons are actually accurate or not.

Somehow didn't get around to SB yet, so no update there. I'm not expecting to get another post out tonight either, gonna be back tomorrow instead.

[Scarlet]

@Raymond

Can you elaborate on your line regarding #409? Like, what do you find odd about it and do you make anything off it?

Basically, SB was the first to bring up the PB lynch as a serious possibility (or was he? I'm going off memory here, might need to re-read), and when it ended up not happening, PB proceeded to die at night instead.

Then again it might just be a coincidence or the mafia pulling a WIFOM, so I'm not sure what to make of it.

[charlie_]

eclipse looks worse than I remember with the Refa push, it feels like she's trying to smear him rather than deconstruct his suspicion (not a vote, just a suspicion, and not even his primary one.) The way she presses Paper in #128 is kind of strange too - he'd only just voted for Manix, so why would it be weird for him to be voting for him? One response doesn't suddenly mean that a scumread is invalidated (if that's what you're trying to say there?) Her Vhaltz push is also kind of questionnable, it was for having one passive post (when Vhaltz had been making a lot of posts overall) and for deciding he didn't want to out some meta he had on Kaoz after all? That doesn't seem too damning to me.

I don't like Strege that much for his #143, his j00 vote feels really weak to me and it feels like aside from the part against j00's reaction test vendetta, there wasn't actually anything in there that made her scummy, rather than saying it was incorrect? I also think that not liking Refa for not pursuing Bal further when Bal hadn't posted at all wasn't good either. His analysis of one of Refa's posts in #182 also felt bad to me, there were a lot of misconceptions there imo. The part about empty material included stuff like him saying "look at this" when it was sort of neccesary to say it, saying that if he's suspicious of a role he should vote for the player as well which really ISN'T something you should do in a situation like that and saying "why would ask paperblade this?" when Paperblade was a part of what Refa was saying?

Don't like Kaoz's prod dodge in D1 without giving reads, his inactivity is understandable but it kind of feels like he just wanted to put off contributing.

I have no clue what to think of Vhaltzslot any more. Haven't really read D2 yet, will come back to it in a bit. For now:

##Vote: Strege

[j00]

Had a very long day and too tired to post proper reads, I'll get to that tomorrow. This is a prod dodge/spam post I guess.

Speaking of prod, are we getting a replacement for Balcerzak?

[Grace]

@raymond: you still need to go read my response, because it sure as hell doesn't look like you have

but also a convenient role cop fake.

let me pose something. if i was scum rolecop, why wouldn't I just claim that instead, considering eclipse has basically stated that her role can be a miller to rolecops? and in addition, as scum i'd have to know that a vanillizer (assuming scum for the time being, because lol town vanillizer) exists in order to claim this role. that would just give more info to town which is not smart

also it might be dumb of me to point this out but I'm assuming it checks for functional vanillas, and considering the amount of PRs in the game it's not inconceivable to believe some players are functional vanillas until they fulfill some PR.

no it just tells me if someone is a full on vanilla or not. i've already explained this to refa and i don't think you're reading. and hell, it just looks really misinformed, and not in a good way

He's got no more content since last phase

hello, life speaking to say that it's called being busy

@Manix

How do you feel about BBM at this point? You made that disconnect observation in #219 which was worth noting in my opinion, but I didn't feel bad about his posts otherwise and they seemed to flow pretty naturally. So basically, how do you feel about him both in general and when limiting yourself to the tone of his posts?

Also, same tone question regarding Refa.

re bbm: besides the disconnect, his content seems okay enough. this might be the whole "waking up and reading" thing but it's what i think right now

tonewise he does seem a little off, but it's not enough to push over due to tone probably changing due to circumstances outside of his control (RL, namely)

re refa: his tone also just doesn't feel right, like it seems... too passive? that'd kind of what i'm drawing from his posts

and like when he does make attacks they feel like they are... distracted, for lack of a better word

[Grace]

(also yes i did see these questions and stuff before but i did not find the time until now. oops)

[Strege]

[...]

I don't like Strege that much for his #143, his j00 vote feels really weak to me and it feels like aside from the part against j00's reaction test vendetta, there wasn't actually anything in there that made her scummy, rather than saying it was incorrect? I also think that not liking Refa for not pursuing Bal further when Bal hadn't posted at all wasn't good either. His analysis of one of Refa's posts in #182 also felt bad to me, there were a lot of misconceptions there imo. The part about empty material included stuff like him saying "look at this" when it was sort of neccesary to say it, saying that if he's suspicious of a role he should vote for the player as well which really ISN'T something you should do in a situation like that and saying "why would ask paperblade this?" when Paperblade was a part of what Refa was saying?

[...]

##Vote: Strege

SB!

->I explained today why I was asking j00 about the first question about Manix and Conq, and saying "I think this is a significant stretch" isn't saying I think it's just wrong but ridiculous or malicious -- I guess that could be unclear? (I meant malicious at the time btw.) j00 later just kept on this point and didn't seem to delve deeply elsewhere despite clearly being active and attentive, so on a skim I was totally okay with the vote.

-> The greater point about Balc was that I felt the post was sparse of reads. The Manix case was a self-admitted sheep and his post on Balc was sort of vague. Remember that my sentence was "It pings me a bit that he didn't pursue Balcerzak more after post 82, if not cite specific Manix stuffs". The part after the comma is equally important.

-> I've pointed out this phase that Refa's response was convincing and I read too much aggression into it. Not much else I can say I suppose.

-> I wasn't saying that he should vote over a role at that point at all -- I was asking (in particular because I saw what I saw as semantic inconsistencies regarding his read).

-> I thought Refa was coaxing Paperblade to push eclipse. I think that was a justified thought to have.

[Strege]

eclipse! What did you plan to do once Vhaltz posted without meta? Also! I don't understand how anything about your Vhaltz case is dependent on his apparent alignment, even after reading your response to Vhaltz's 374 a few times. I know you discussed this with j00 and concluded that people don't need to agree, but I need to see the reasoning (and am usually capable of doing so).

I feel like you saying you didn't get into every nitpicky detail of the game was just a dodge of >50% of my original concerns about you.

" "I'm going to use someone else's arguments to supplement what is essentially a case of vibes." That's the impression I got from your case on me late D1. "

^Didn't you pick apart Refa's case on you as malicious? Where do vibes come in?

[Scarlet]

@raymond: you still need to go read my response, because it sure as hell doesn't look like you have

I have, and I'm not satisfied with it. I'm even less satisfied with the fact that instead of giving me a straight answer, you simply discredit me.

I will ask again. Why do you find Refa scummy? Don't give me a generalized statement. I want to see examples of what really bugs you about him.

[Grace]

go read my iso, i've already explained why, and you're not reading them

[Grace]

and seriously, how is it "discrediting"? explain to me how, because you stated, and i quote:

but it didn't really look like he even cared WHO else got lynched.

to which, if you had read the end of phase, you'd see that i wanted refa lynched. not a hard concept

[Scarlet]

go read my iso, i've already explained why, and you're not reading them

Let's assume for a moment that I have missed it. Surely it wouldn't be an issue to just link to the relevant post(s) and/or restate your explanation?

to which, if you had read the end of phase, you'd see that i wanted refa lynched. not a hard concept

Yes, I saw and acknowledged that you voted for Refa.

I explained here why that doesn't cut it. It just looks like a "case" for the sake of having a case rather than actually scumhunting - hence why I have the impression that you don't care who gets lynched.

I kinda wish I could make my vote count twice.

[Grace]

I explained here why that doesn't cut it. It just looks like a "case" for the sake of having a case rather than actually scumhunting - hence why I have the impression that you don't care who gets lynched.

you do realize i don't get lots of time to sink into mafia this game, right? hence why i don't have a lot of cases/more informed cases. i can't help being busy

that's also partly why i said to go read my iso, bc i need to go sink some time into work now and can't really go grab it

[Balcerzak]

Alright, so, I had much catching up to do, and I'm obviously not doing the best job of it.

I have/had relatively strong town reads on Scarlet, j00, and Vhaltz based on my first (maybe only) pass of the material.

I'd been about to attempt to make a case on SB on Sunday at around noon, before I had to leave to take care of things, and his new content hasn't really dissuaded me.

I've kind of given up on reading eclipse, because I was afraid I was tunneling, and figured ignoring her for awhile to just be a better approach. Whether or not that's actually a good thing or not, I should probably re-evaluate.

Most of my other reads are kind of floating around wildly, and I admit I've been markedly less than helpful at producing content, but frankly excuses and explanations don't help things, just making time (or trying to) and getting anything out there is really the only way it's gonna change. On that note, I do tend to find I do a lot better when given some sort of objective framework to work with, so if you guys want to lay out some projects like "answer me these questions 3" or "solidly investigate player x" I dunno, but that might help me more effectively use the time I do manage to get to greater purpose, rather than me just floundering around, rereading things, and then wasting a few hours without producing anything meaningful before I disappear and forget.

I guess I'll go start tallying voting patterns maybe for now...

[Strege]

Balc! (...the herald angels sing) I have some questions that might help:

- Why were you feeling that you were tunneling on eclipse, and even if it's off the top of your head where are you leaning on her now? It's harder to tell your feelings there then it is for other people.

- What was the SB case about?

I'm really enjoying this whole exclamation mark business.

SB you should totally respond to my case on you when you get a chance so that we can get better reads on each other and I can lynch you if you're scum maybe!

(I haven't really addressed this yet: time will be a continuing obstacle for me, but should free up in a linear fashion except for a few deadzones. Nothing as bad as D1 though.)

[eclipse]

eclipse! What did you plan to do once Vhaltz posted without meta? Also! I don't understand how anything about your Vhaltz case is dependent on his apparent alignment, even after reading your response to Vhaltz's 374 a few times. I know you discussed this with j00 and concluded that people don't need to agree, but I need to see the reasoning (and am usually capable of doing so).

I feel like you saying you didn't get into every nitpicky detail of the game was just a dodge of >50% of my original concerns about you.

" "I'm going to use someone else's arguments to supplement what is essentially a case of vibes." That's the impression I got from your case on me late D1. "

^Didn't you pick apart Refa's case on you as malicious? Where do vibes come in?

Evaluate his logic, which in turn would help me with a read. . .and I'm not sure what you're asking in the second sentence (sorry). Your previous post (reference) pointed out things I didn't notice - what other response can I give? Pointing it out now is great, but there's nothing that can be done about it at this point. I'm not sure which Refa case you're referring to - his first one was bad, because of the diassociative push I saw, and the "vibes" thing is in regards to his late D1 vote on me.

Basically, SB was the first to bring up the PB lynch as a serious possibility (or was he? I'm going off memory here, might need to re-read), and when it ended up not happening, PB proceeded to die at night instead.

Then again it might just be a coincidence or the mafia pulling a WIFOM, so I'm not sure what to make of it.

Or it could be because of claim, or some other reason. . .trying to discern the mafia's motives won't get me anywhere.

eclipse looks worse than I remember with the Refa push, it feels like she's trying to smear him rather than deconstruct his suspicion (not a vote, just a suspicion, and not even his primary one.) The way she presses Paper in #128 is kind of strange too - he'd only just voted for Manix, so why would it be weird for him to be voting for him? One response doesn't suddenly mean that a scumread is invalidated (if that's what you're trying to say there?) Her Vhaltz push is also kind of questionnable, it was for having one passive post (when Vhaltz had been making a lot of posts overall) and for deciding he didn't want to out some meta he had on Kaoz after all? That doesn't seem too damning to me.

SB, do me a favor, and put this in chronological order. I have a foggy idea of what half of this is referring to, and no clue about the other half.

I've kind of given up on reading eclipse, because I was afraid I was tunneling, and figured ignoring her for awhile to just be a better approach. Whether or not that's actually a good thing or not, I should probably re-evaluate.

Balcerzak, NO! Read me! Comment on me! I'm in the mix of relevant things for once!

As I'm having issues parsing people's posts, my vote will stay on no one - this tells me that I'm mentally out of it, and probably shouldn't be playing right now.

[Conqueror]

Eclipse, even if you don't want to vote anyone, where are you leaning right now? You've kinda transitioned into full defense and it's hard to tell what you're thinking.

I've kind of given up on reading eclipse, because I was afraid I was tunneling, and figured ignoring her for awhile to just be a better approach. Whether or not that's actually a good thing or not, I should probably re-evaluate.

You know, I kinda skimmed past your post until eclipse pointed this out, but now that I'm seeing it I'm curious. Since when were you tunneling eclipse? From what I saw in your ISO, the only reason you were voting her was a combination of the ninja claim niggling at you and you not being sure on everyone else. Seems like a weird backwards justification that doesn't actually fit.

@Manix At this point the main reason I've feeling iffy about you is the fact that you've literally been on Refa all game and you are pretty much ignoring the rest of the game. So I can't tell if you're genuinely tunneling or deliberately tunneling. Like at this point I know pretty much none of your opinions aside from Refa. I know you're saying you're busy, but so are half the people in this thread and most of them aren't stuck on one-track pursuits.

I looked back at your content and I well...exaggerated some of my points against you.

Refa whyyy. But yeah, repeating the question others have asked you about why you suddenly switched from eclipse to Elieson? It's not like Elieson's alignment has changed from Vhaltz's. Also, I reread Vhaltz's nighttime post on eclipse and which parts did you specifically agree with? I'm looking it at it again and half of it is eclipse is buddying Conq (and that is scummy) and the other half is something very specific about Kaoz's relation to Vhaltz.

SB is someone I need to reread, but my impressions of him on D1 were pretty good. Also, I actually got around to reading Strege's case on him and...

@Strege: Fair enough wrt to your initial reply. What's the rational behind your SB vote though? It feels to me like you just went through his posts, picked out a bunch of stuff that bugged you, and concluded that he was scummy for the sum of them. The problem is that I don't really see why most of the things you pointed out were scummy? I'd like to know how you got to the conclusion that SB's reads are hard to figure out because I'm reading the posts you linked and they seem reasonably clear to me.

I've been procrastinating on this game because I've haven't been able to make sense of this game and I was waiting for Balc to post, but I should probably just get down to it. I am probably going to shoot someone in the face in the next 24 hours or something close to that time frame, so y'all should totally get the posts in.

I've half a mind to just shoot Balc from the hip but I'll give him a chance to produce something of worth. Probably going to make another post after this to show where I'm currently at.

[Conqueror]

Also, I can't find that spreadsheet that lists the games you all were in, and I'm probably going to do some ~*meta reading*~ so if someone could link me to that that'd be awesome.

[eclipse]

That's just it - because everything I have is defensive, my reads are leaning towards those with cases on me (sans Strege), and that's awful play. I really don't like it, but something that isn't the mafia game has come up, and I need to pay attention to that.

[eclipse]

Spreadsheet - same as the queue, check the "Completed" section, skip the games I hosted. I doubt you're going to like what you get out of meta, as my supposed town meta is something I'm trying to change.

[Conqueror]

Thanks, found it. I'm more interested in having a point of comparison than anything since I have no experience with most of you and there are things some players do irrespective of alignment it'd be nice ot know about.

[Conqueror]

Some more questions and stuff that I missed the first time.

@Kaoz

What about Strege's SB case do you like? Also, why would you leave rereading the person your vote is on for after other people? >_>

let me pose something. if i was scum rolecop, why wouldn't I just claim that instead, considering eclipse has basically stated that her role can be a miller to rolecops? and in addition, as scum i'd have to know that a vanillizer (assuming scum for the time being, because lol town vanillizer) exists in order to claim this role. that would just give more info to town which is not smart

There's so much wrong with this defense, but the attack was flawed to begin with. Can we just agree to lessen the important of role arguments in the game of a mod who has had such pioneering past roles as "mafia cop" and "sk doc?"

Anyway, I'm leaning towards shooting in the pool of Balc/Kaoz/Manix/Strege?/Refa?/SB?

Balc/Kaoz is less because of not being here and more because the content they've produced while here is pretty unimpressive. That said, it's pretty hard for me to discern between town and scum non-posters so I would really appreciate it if you two were more clear on where you stand in the game state?

For Manix it's a feeling that he's pushing Refa more because he can than because of anything else, and then when anyone calls him out on it he just says he's busy. Like, I just want more reads from you Manix. Even gut reads are fine.

Not so sure on Strege anymore. Will need to reread his latest posts again. I have to admit they seem pretty decent.

Refa is mostly gut with how quickly he switched to Elieson over "disconnect between thoughts and lynch priority." Also, I have a feeling this is going to be due to differences in scumhunting philosophy, but where did Elieson ever say Kaoz was his top scumread? I've had a town read on the rest of his posts throughout the game though, so eh.

I should probably remove SB from this list. I really only put him on because I just read a scumgame of his and he looked pretty town there to me, so. :V On rereading still find his posts pretty townie, but I'd ask him why he suddenly started pursuing three people today that he hardly mentioned yesterday. Other than that I don't seem to find his abrupt switching of opinions as scummy as some of the rest of you do. I'd normally put more stock in the reads of people who should supposedly know his play better, but I kinda suspect all the people pushing him. >_>

[Prims]

Day 2.1 - Votals

Elieson (2) - BigBangMeteor, Refa

Manix (2) - Raymond, j00

SB (2) - Strege, Kaoz

Strege (2) - Conqueror, SB

eclipse (1) - Elieson,

Refa (1) - Manix

Not Voting (2): Balcerzak, eclipse

You have 42 hours and 15 minutes left in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Grace]

conq: you want reads? you got it (note: i am not fully rereading the thread now so you get vibey gutbased stuff)

so basically from what i remember i put strege/raymond down as those being unmemorable, strege i still don't really have much more of an opinion of but raymond didn't seem to respond too well to me refuting his points. i think someone said this a while back, but it's aggressive, and i'd say it's disproportionately so and leaves a bad taste in my mouth

i didn't like j00's attack on me bc it looks like purposeful ignorance (and/or bad assumptions even though i already stated what i do) of what i've claimed, and makes me think it's an attack that isn't coming from a townie mindset

a while back i read one of sb' posts, his last one, namely, and it just read wrong tonally? it's a lot harder to explain then say, refa's posttone so it's really not something i can push

[charlie_]

Refa: I'm kind of curious why you brought up an SK at the start of the phase. Did you expect one to exist or something?

Manix: By you got a result you mean you got a VT result, or something else? If not I wouldn't out it, but I would expect a vanilla to be townie so if so out it if you want?

Strege's case on me is kind of weak. The first two posts are based on barely out of RVS content. The third is based on me expanding upon a read that I didn't articulate as well as I could've the first time. As far as I can tell he doesn't know what to make of his fourth point which is ??? considering he's using it to case me apart from saying that he didn't get how Manix improved in my eyes specifically which is eh. I have no idea why the fifth point is scummy. The hypothetical stuff was referring to the paragraph in #159 above the vote, iirc? I can kind of get that you're struggling to figure out my reads considering I feel like I'm all over the place this game for some reason, but I don't feel so much like this is a case on me so much as just going for nitpicks?

I'm interested in why Kaoz agreed with this case more than Strege for making it though. If you hadn't actually read me, Strege could've made up a load of bs about me that wasn't true at all, so I don't see why you would put your vote down there. It feels kind of like you're just dropping down a vote to look better to me.

Manix's Refa case seems kind of weak for me at this stage? Particularly the second link in #399, it seems like he's disregarding the majority of Refa's vote and poking at the weakest part of it.

I'm going out to grab lunch now. Will finish up reading and post a lynch priority when I get back since people are having trouble following it, I guess.