Big NOCers - Game Over

[Refa]

^^I don't even get your vote. Essentially you're claiming to disagree with my eclipse vote, but nowhere do you say why it's scummy or why you're even voting me. Also where did SB ask eclipse to vote for Paperblade, I already mentioned how I couldn't find it? Is it that hard for someone to quote it...

Refa: Elieson and Vhaltz having entirely different reads isn't a scumtell at all, and eh, dragging Vhaltz meta into the read isn't an argument against Elieson.

Also disagree with your issues with eclipse, I'm suspicious of her too but you're nitpicking at her Paperblade vote, Vhaltz announced he was was gonna vote Paper and SB brought it as a suggestion, eclipse voting for consolidation is justified

It's not a scumtell, but I already stated that part of my reasons for reading Vhaltz as town were his reads and my issues with Elieson's votes. Vhaltz's meta isn't an argument against Elieson, it's explaining why I felt comfortable with the voteswap despite reading his prior slot as town.

Fair enough on my eclipse point though; I'll drop that.

[Kaoz]

Kaoz confuses me, I don't find Strege's SB post clear enough that I'd sheep him without even reading SB properly myself. It feels like he placed the vote there just to have a vote on someone.

This isn't entirely inaccurate. In my opinion having a vote somewhere is always better than not having one if possible. I didn't have anything regarding scum reads myself at that time, so sheeping someone else until I had the chance to reread some more was a perfectly legitimate choice in my mind.

---

Anyway, after rereading Vhaltz/Elieson, I'm leaning towards town on this slot. Looking at #192 or the third paragraph of #196, the reaction to others questioning his methods reads genuine to me, he seemed open minded regarding his reads without falling over too quickly and was generally good about detailing his thought process.

I don't feel particularly strongly about Elieson's posts, but it's the Vhaltz slot still, so Vhaltz's actions carry over. I'd like to know Elieson's opinion on Raymond though since the latter parts of Elieson's #382 notes comment negatively on two of Raymond's later posts, which seems to be somewhat similar to the eclipse read development, but he doesn't appear anywhere on Elieson's lynch priority.

Voting eclipse instead of Kaoz because existence is a thing and I'd rather vote for someone early in the phase when they're actually here, and lynching could become a thing, rather than would become a thing.

Also, could you clarify what you meant here? Unless you're saying that voting for someone with little content more or less assures their lynch, I'm not really getting it.

And with that I'm done for the day.

[j00]

If you drop the Paperblade vote, your main reason to vote her seems to be because she's voting you. Don't really agree with her reasons, but voting her for that seems reactionary.

[Scarlet]

^^I don't even get your vote. Essentially you're claiming to disagree with my eclipse vote, but nowhere do you say why it's scummy or why you're even voting me.

I'm voting you because I'm suspicious of you, as I've stated here.

I don't just disagree with your eclipse vote, I'm saying that it's bad and mostly unfounded. You kept misrepresenting her with the consolidation vote thing, and the other reasons you've stated in your #268 just seem exaggerated.

Also where did SB ask eclipse to vote for Paperblade, I already mentioned how I couldn't find it? Is it that hard for someone to quote it...

Seriously?

I kind of want to hope for enough support for a Paper!wagon but I dunno if there's the time? Sorry Conq, but I don't think we're getting your power activated today.

[...]

Posting this while eclipse is hopefully still around to see if she'll wagon Paperblade with me? Got more stuff to say than this.

[Strege]

People have mentioned that my scumread of SB looks nitpicky and doesn't seem to reveal scumminess, so I'll try to communicate things better.

SB: (get ready for nitpicking) (scumread here)

-> Paying more attention to post orders, I feel like his early vote on Manix (61) for being overdefensive to BBM was a little premature -- it was one sentence versus two. I can see the hypothetical ringing alarm bells a little but that's mentioned later so :/ .

-> Not a fan of the early Vhaltz case (81) either since he criticizes him for making up "a case for the sake of having a case" and saying BBM didn't need much reason to hold a vote on ED1... which are very similar ideas (so absolving BBM and criticizing Vhaltz pings me a little). He also misses the point that Vhaltz's vote didn't have to do with the validity of BBM's initial vote -- Vhaltz criticized the legitimacy and adamant-ness of BBM's follow-up. This arrow is fairly insignificant, but worth mentioning as it does affect my read.

-> In post 93 SB adds another thing to his Manix case while defending himself from a vote from eclipse based on his initial case being forced (the issue being the framing of this new evidence as justification for the old reasoning) (he did post on Manix in between and didn't mention this either). :/

-> Not sure what to think of 124. The Refa read is okay since he didn't say he was scumreading eclipse (and that whole thing was strange anyway) but there's also idle questioning on Vhaltz (he could literally just say "I was not at the computer" in response as scum) and Paperblade, and dropping the Manix suspicion citing specific reason (I don't see how it addresses SB's concerns).

-> In 142 he doesn't see townie intent in Scarlet empty unvoting but doesn't seek scum intent (who da eff runs people up for holding votes when they aren't posting anyway?). This bugs me a bit.

-> I don't really understand the comment about Refa in 177? if it is citing 159 than I cannot see that as a hypothetical thing; that is an attack.

-> Altogether it's really hard to figure out where SB's reads are, and they are often weak or disappear quickly or whatever. He said not being explicit about his reads is a playstyle thing but I can't gather /anything/. If I had to ask about someone in particular it would be Refa I suppose?

The first two arrows show what I think is excessive knee-jerkiness even for ED1, as the later examples in particular show hastiness in their inconsistencies. Due to those details, it's hard for me to treat this like proactive town behaviour rather than scum jumping on cases to look proactive. I don't think the fact that this stuff happened ED1 makes it less valuable if that's what SB was saying.

The third arrow shows SB adding onto his case for the second time after getting flak for the initial case, and the fact that this stuff happens to spring to mind afterwards despite not being based on new evidence makes me think SB was either holding back the first time or not paying close attention to his vote target (which isn't a massive scumtell so early on, but in this case I feel is significant because of how much material he produced later).

Fourth arrow: I mentioned this because it contributes to my scumread a bit, though I don't know where between scummy and null it lies. It bothers me because it was at a point where SB couldn't have held a vote on Manix -- he criticizes Refa, unvotes Manix without specific reason, and votes Paperblade for what I expect would be considered lesser reasons. It just seems like a post meant to drag his vote around.

Fifth: It doesn't make any sense from a scumhunting perspective; on a limited reread I think your case against Scarlet is more plausible but this point seems like something you just said to stir things up and then got stuck with it.

Sixth: ah, nevermind then.

@Conq:
Seventh: Sources of confusion: the Paperblade thing, of course; post 177 is where I lost the thread on SB's opinion of Vhaltz; the use of "interesting" after so much silence on Refa confuses me as to SB's opinion of him (also it seems like he keeps leaning into Refa when Refa pushed him); his votes are also summarized as such:
- votes Manix (wants reaction) -> drops Manix (not completely, but we aren't told that at the time)

- votes Vhaltz -> Vhaltz suspicion takes the backmost seat
- votes Scarlet -> stops talking about Scarlet (Scarlet might just not be around, I can't be arsed to check atm)
- votes Paperblade (for consolidation) -> drops Paperblade

- votes Vhaltz (not clear how much is for consolidation)
It never looks like a natural change of priority when SB unvotes, just which is why I think his reads are hard to track

Conq! nobias but I don't think you should shoot me. I'll be around later but I gotta wash my sheets n'stuff.

[Strege]

Popping back because I'm an idiot: the point of that last part about SB's votes is that each vote is for, like, a couple of reasons that seem strongly expressed, but the dropoff in suspicion after letting those reasons hang for a while is distressingly large. I don't feel like he's been going out of the way to pursue cases.

[charlie_]

I hadn't been able to even read the thread properly when making that post and was running late as it was, so unless you think I'm lying about either of those things, I don't see your point. Do you think I am?

In the same vein, is that an actual scum read or just a side jab? If it's the former, could you explain why you feel that way?

I figured if you had enough time to post responses, there should've been some kind of read you could've taken from it. So it was a small scumread.

If I had made that post towards the end of the phase, you would be absolutely correct. However, I made it close to the beginning and didn't expect you to get turbolynched, hence plenty of time to check whether or not there was bs involved or not. Also, voting you to look better to you is ???; I reckon that if I wanted to look better to you, I would sheep you on something instead.

I found it scummy because it felt like you were voting for the sake of having a vote to not stick out. And by looking better to me, I meant from my point of view it looked like you were voting to appease the game overall, not me.

@eclipse: I don't see how the vote being sloppy equates to it being scummy, considering he was acknowledging it as such and had good reason for it? The filler stuff is things like the pointless responses to Paperblade and other short responses that don't really add much, but in hindsight this point is minor at best.

Also, what was the info I had that you were talking about?

I think Refa's explanation of his change in Vhaltz read is townie? I can see an evolving thought process there that I can follow along with and it doesn't seem forced to me at all.

Gonna respond to the Strege wall in a separate post.

[charlie_]

The first two arrows show what I think is excessive knee-jerkiness even for ED1, as the later examples in particular show hastiness in their inconsistencies. Due to those details, it's hard for me to treat this like proactive town behaviour rather than scum jumping on cases to look proactive. I don't think the fact that this stuff happened ED1 makes it less valuable if that's what SB was saying.

I don't entirely get what you mean by knee-jerkiness, but I don't get the point in switching my vote from Manix that quickly as scum if I figured I could get away with it? iirc I was pretty static with my vote in my last scumgame, so eh. I don't see the inconsistencies either? Like, I'm looking at your post and I just don't see it.

The third arrow shows SB adding onto his case for the second time after getting flak for the initial case, and the fact that this stuff happens to spring to mind afterwards despite not being based on new evidence makes me think SB was either holding back the first time or not paying close attention to his vote target (which isn't a massive scumtell so early on, but in this case I feel is significant because of how much material he produced later).

Yes, I expanded on it for the sake of clarity. What would you expect me to do in a situation like that? I'm also interested in how the last part of this paragraphs works as far as making me scum goes.

Fourth arrow: I mentioned this because it contributes to my scumread a bit, though I don't know where between scummy and null it lies. It bothers me because it was at a point where SB couldn't have held a vote on Manix -- he criticizes Refa, unvotes Manix without specific reason, and votes Paperblade for what I expect would be considered lesser reasons. It just seems like a post meant to drag his vote around.

I didn't give a specific reason because all there was to it was that his more recent posts had felt more natual to me. And I already said that I overstated my Paperblade suspicion at the time for the sake of evoking a reaction out of him anyway? I found him scummy anyway, so.

Fifth: It doesn't make any sense from a scumhunting perspective; on a limited reread I think your case against Scarlet is more plausible but this point seems like something you just said to stir things up and then got stuck with it.

I don't get what you're saying here? Not seeing why a townie would do something means that you don't think they're town, so you should lynch them, but I never mentioned townie intent in that post anyway, so I don't know what the problem was because I saw it as scum intent?

Seventh: Sources of confusion: the Paperblade thing, of course; post 177 is where I lost the thread on SB's opinion of Vhaltz; the use of "interesting" after so much silence on Refa confuses me as to SB's opinion of him (also it seems like he keeps leaning into Refa when Refa pushed him); his votes are also summarized as such:

- votes Manix (wants reaction) -> drops Manix (not completely, but we aren't told that at the time)

- votes Vhaltz -> Vhaltz suspicion takes the backmost seat

- votes Scarlet -> stops talking about Scarlet (Scarlet might just not be around, I can't be arsed to check atm)

- votes Paperblade (for consolidation) -> drops Paperblade

- votes Vhaltz (not clear how much is for consolidation)

It never looks like a natural change of priority when SB unvotes, just which is why I think his reads are hard to track

Manix was an RVS suspicion that I actually found scummy, it wasn't for a reaction.

Vhaltz dropped off my radar due to the gap lull in posts that came from the slot in the time shortly after it.

I've stopped talking about Raymond because I don't even know what to think about him.

My Paperblade vote wasn't consolidation at all. I was the one pushing his lynch, so I don't know how you could miss this?

It was preferring a Vhaltz lynch to a Refa lynch at near deadline.

I can see my thought process being kind of hard to follow because I feel kind of lost this game in a way that I haven't felt like in a while, but you don't seem to understand my posts or votes at all. Even your clarifying post doesn't really tell me very well why you want me lynched.

There was something in a more recent Kaoz post that made me feel slightly better about him, but I don't remember where it was exactly?

Priority is something like Strege>eclipse and then it gets a little blurry after that with a couple of others.

[Strege]

I keep forgetting to restate this but lmao primspec. Until we can make better judgements about setup balance I think it's a bad idea to ask "would Prims do X", as someone who's played more prims-hosted games than anything else.

Hopefully the formatting works on this.

Elieson!

- What do you think about the vote eclipse did place down on Vhaltz after saying she needed to clear her head?

- Why are you scumreading BBM? The most you've said is that first few pages left a sour taste in your mouth and nothing improved but... that isn't a case... :/

Refa!

- If someone can act super townie as scum, why wouldn't they be able to do it as town? Is the argument just that you don't trust yourself to recognize scum!Vhaltz? If so, why didn't you think of this earlier when you were reading him as town?

I don't entirely get what you mean by knee-jerkiness, but I don't get the point in switching my vote from Manix that quickly as scum if I figured I could get away with it? iirc I was pretty static with my vote in my last scumgame, so eh. I don't see the inconsistencies either? Like, I'm looking at your post and I just don't see it.

- Early game "inconsistencies" are the flawed (as best as I can tell) reasonings regarding Vhaltz and BBM. Sorry, I don't meta much and hardly have enough time to read one game.

Yes, I expanded on it for the sake of clarity. What would you expect me to do in a situation like that? I'm also interested in how the last part of this paragraphs works as far as making me scum goes.

- How it's scummy: Holding back to lay low or not caring about how scummy your vote-target is, as long as you can stick a vote. Until pressure makes you expound.

- Content is the issue, not clarity. This is a more straightforward explanation to me than alternatives.

- What I would expect: I think it would be more probable for a townie to think through and present a larger case in the beginning, not have additional content, direct questions or pressure towards Manix instead of explaining new content to your accuser, or not consistently phrase things in a way that at a skim looks like a unit of information when in fact some of it is being added. I realize this would be a frustrating argument to face as town because ~words~ and I apologize, but words are kind of my shtick.

I didn't give a specific reason because all there was to it was that his more recent posts had felt more natual to me. And I already said that I overstated my Paperblade suspicion at the time for the sake of evoking a reaction out of him anyway? I found him scummy anyway, so.

- I forgot about the Paperblade thing, and the Manix thing: I can see it.

I don't get what you're saying here? Not seeing why a townie would do something means that you don't think they're town, so you should lynch them, but I never mentioned townie intent in that post anyway, so I don't know what the problem was because I saw it as scum intent?

- I could dig through a stack of replies and possibly get a loosely related answer, or ask "How was Scarlet demonstrating scum intent?"

Manix was an RVS suspicion that I actually found scummy, it wasn't for a reaction.

Vhaltz dropped off my radar due to the gap lull in posts that came from the slot in the time shortly after it.

I've stopped talking about Raymond because I don't even know what to think about him.

My Paperblade vote wasn't consolidation at all. I was the one pushing his lynch, so I don't know how you could miss this?

It was preferring a Vhaltz lynch to a Refa lynch at near deadline.

I can see my thought process being kind of hard to follow because I feel kind of lost this game in a way that I haven't felt like in a while, but you don't seem to understand my posts or votes at all. Even your clarifying post doesn't really tell me very well why you want me lynched.

Wow, me derping on Manix, Paper, Refa there (Refa, because I confused one of your replies to Elie as one to Refa for some reason). Jeez; I swear I've read your posts several times so far, but the fact that ctrl-F-ing "Paperblade" didn't bring up that argument in your ISO made me think someone else made it when you just called him "Paper".

Eugh, I'm believing in this argument a lot less. I need to reevaluate my read and stuff. Also respond to eclipse I think.

[Strege]

Evaluate his logic, which in turn would help me with a read. . .and I'm not sure what you're asking in the second sentence (sorry). Your previous post (reference) pointed out things I didn't notice - what other response can I give? Pointing it out now is great, but there's nothing that can be done about it at this point. I'm not sure which Refa case you're referring to - his first one was bad, because of the diassociative push I saw, and the "vibes" thing is in regards to his late D1 vote on me.

I thought Vhaltz had posted more than enough not-meta to analyze some of, and really that it was strange that you'd discard it all and say you're waiting for a solid read based on the arbitrary bounds of a post. I was asking here what in your Vhaltz read was actually based on scummy behaviour (I don't get the whole passivity thing, though I think I get the meta thing now). I'll go back and reread though since I'm being very dumb this game, apparently. I can't find the Refa stuff and your stuff on him looks okay? As for the rest I wanted to see if you were acknowledging my points or brushing them off as nothing.

It's hard to tell where you're at considering schedules and you having to respond to all kinds of stuffs, so my read on you is sort of stagnant.

Elie: why are you scumreading Balc either? All of this seems so hashed together to be honest...

j00: Could you rank your scumreads? It might be my deteriorating mind but I'm having trouble seeing where your reads lie in relation to each other.

I might detach myself from the game for a while. Reads are ~~meh~~ but as people can probably tell I'm feeling better about SB, eclipse addressed some of my points, and Elie is rising. j00 deserves a reread. Balc is pretty much the same; it hurts me to lynch inactives but I think I'd lynch him over anyone I haven't mentioned in this paragraph. Elie might be higher than Balc, but I don't think I've explained why -- I'll go at it later.

Scummier I guess: SB, eclipse

Scummy I guess: Elieson, Balc, j00

@Conq: If you caught my drift and think I'm town (or at least not too scummy), allow me to suggest you don't shoot someone too inactive, to make sure we can secure a lynch come deadline. I'll be around.

[Grace]

okay making post now. i've been putting it off since i'm not really feeling it but here we go.

i was going to ask strege where his scumread on me from D1 went but a quick ctrl+f on his iso gave me that answer. i'm good at this.

i don't quite get what your lynch priority is from the above post though, could you clarify that?

[Prims]

Day 2.3 - Votals

Refa (3) - Manix, eclipse, Scarlet

Balcerzak (2) - ????????, Kaoz

SB (2) - Strege, Elieson

Strege (2) - Conqueror, SB

Elieson (1) - BigBangMeteor

eclipse (1) - Refa

Manix (1) - j00

Not Voting (1): Balcerzak

You have 23 hours left in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Prims

[Elieson]

Woo a long day filled with boring shit and arguments with my ex. BUT I'M HOME, and lexi's in bed, so, let's go.

---

How is my Strege defense using wifom? I also don't see how my Kaoz response is defensive. The Manix thing was kind of unfinished because I was just leaving.

It feels weird you went from a townie lean on me (from your notes) to scum just because of one post, instead of the four suspicions you had at the start of the phase.

Your Strege defense WIFOMs because you're bringing up how you can't interpret some of his reasons, then you yourself saying "I know I'm all over the place in this game". Your defense v Kaoz is just telling him that reading is good and sheeping is bad, but you don't appear to be applying any form of pressure or concern to it. Manix, well I can see that, but it doesn't make it any better.

And I really did develop a scumread on you because of one post. Is that a problem for me exclusively? Because other people have openly and bluntly stated that they flipped on my slot's read because of one post, and you're completely ignoring them.

Can you explain why?

Why it's fluff? Because she's explaining things that everyone should know. If I spend 1/3 of a post saying that I know what my RolePM says, and it's in mafia's best interest to know what their RolePM says too, well then, what am I bringing to the table? it's fluff because it doesn't contribute to scumhunting, and it doesn't really even explain how to scumhunt/, it just explains how to play the game.

Manix vote was for consolidation and I also said that I didn't think his claim was a scumclaim at the end.

As for the timing, my laptop timing was apparently off from the forum/Prims's timing by a few minutes. I thought there were like 2 minutes left. Even if there were 10 seconds, what's scummy about it? Feels like you're just throwing stuff around.

Worse than Paperblade.

That was your consolidation logic BUT you kept going. Your vote for Manix had that behind it, and that's pretty much it. The sentence below didn't explain why manix was scummy to you, but just rose questions. I still don't know your real stance on manix. You've bounced on and off and on and off with him, and it's just, all over the place. He represents a decent chunk of your attention, yet maintains a "he is scum, he isn't scum" cycle.

:: Next

What's scummy about it is that it's not explained until prodded about, meaning that the town intent of the voteshift is in question. Just like you shifted off to Conq, because apparently, you can't tell time, someone could've switched over to manix last minute and secured a lynch, because they had a last minute thought or were running late on getting to the thread.

Balcerzak- I'm bothered by his lack of scum reads this whole game. Like, I get that he's busy and all, but in the time he took to make that post I'd expect him to have at least a cursory suspicion or two.

Elieson- His first post had a lot of suspicions that were disconnected with his lynch priority. Don't really like how he retroactively denounced them either? His next post had a pretty good justification of his eclipse vote though, although I feel like he undermined that with his SB vote which was based on a small blurb.

Couldn't Balc = Kaoz in that regard?

Also, I mentioned in my post that I have reasons for shifting my vote. I have an idea of where her mind on lynch targets is, and I wanted clarity on some things with SB. My vote on him should show just how important getting SB to respond was, and look what happened.

Elieson!
- What do you think about the vote eclipse did place down on Vhaltz after saying she needed to clear her head?
- Why are you scumreading BBM? The most you've said is that first few pages left a sour taste in your mouth and nothing improved but... that isn't a case... :/

Re eclipse's vote on my ancestor; I disagree with it, but I can see why she'd feel that way and vote accordingly. Vhaltz is giving her a headache, and we just witness the reactions of people getting irritated by other people in Persona3, where Kopf shot Shinori, so the disdain for reliance on meta is justified. I don't support her saying Vhaltz was really "passive", because Vhaltz had been pretty blunt with his reads for most of the time he was in the game, so, overall, 50:50.

Read above; his back and forth at the beginning of the game looked off putting to me, and he's so back and forth with his reads regarding BIG POSTER MANIX, that it's hard to establish where he stands on a person who almost got lynched yesterphase. That, and his Conq hop rubs me the wrong way. Unless he had a serious reason other than that he just reeeeeeeally wanted a nolynch, I can find no reason to do that.

---

I feel like I'm missing a response to something, but can't seem to find it.

SO FOR NOW

...:::BALCERZAK:::...

1. Who are your top three lynch candidates for today, and why?
2. Why should we not consider lynching you in this, the last 1/3 of D2?
3. Why aren't you voting eclipse now, since she was your primary [most vote-worthy] read during yesterphase?

Prims, any reason why I'm still voting for eclipse in Votals?

Also, while Refa doesn't seem to find a clear read on me, I'm finding him pretty town, and would not like to lynch him today.

[Grace]

oh god this is comedy gold actually

raymond complains about me not caring who gets lynched and not reading why i find refa scummy (hint: it's there in my iso), then proceeds to 1) vote refa and 2) use similar reasons as me, while saying i don't have any. golden (read: that's pretty scummy)

also apparently raymond can make more posts about other people then promptly ignore me pretty much from then on. it looks like a suspicion park on an easy target. then add on the disproportionate aggression to me (and kind of against vhaltz/sb D1, see #160/#208) and i think there might be something here too.

parsing j00's iso is hard. i'm just going to stick with the later part of it because it's more topical, i think.

@Manix: announcer is an active role, that's not what I meant at all. Like, if Conq needed 4 votes to get his shot, he'd be vanilla in all but name before that. Does your check things like that?

is still ignorance; someone quoted the rules at some point, to which was "everyone has a role". i check that, and have said so repeatedly.

If anything, if there's a scum vanillizer your role still doesn't make sense, because why the hell would vanillas not out that they'd lost their powers? Scum would know already, and vanilla checker is redundant.

if, and if only it's actually a scum vanillizer. we don't know if it is or not yet. for all we know, it could be ITP which completely blows your theory out of the water. i don't know what alignment it would be, but you can't assume to know why roles exist in the setup.

i also can't tell what j00's actual scumreads are myself, besides me. and maybe refa but it looks like j00 is just taking potshots, from what i see. like it doesn't look like he's pushing refa with townie motivations.

words are starting to blur. i need a break

[BBM]

wow I was expecting a vigshot Conq I am disappoint

Also, now that I am thinking more about it, how does this go together with your claim that you get an ability when you get voted?

I skimmed all the walls and read Elie's long-promised blurb on me and it is bs like I expected and heavily exaggerates my stance changes on Manix. For one thing I haven't even been active enough to flip-flop as much as he claims I have. I started the game thinking he was suspicious for RVS stuff, moved him to the "wary of" pile, voted him for consolidation over Paper near end of phase, and then concluded afterwards that Manix was probably town due to his claim. While the strength of my read varies, there's only one actual flip-flop in my read of his alignment.

He also makes a huge deal of me switching my vote to Conq and about how I didn't explain it until prodded. Paperblade talked about how we should have voted Conq and then literally the very next post I switched my vote there. It is not rocket science to figure out why I switched my vote, and nobody else needed clarification for it either. Also he keeps bringing up these connections between me and Manix that only make sense if we're scumbuddies, except he stated that he doesn't think Manix is scum. Okay, I switched my vote away from Manix and prevented a last second hammer. Does that mean we are scumbuddies Elie? Because newsflash, a mislynch is better than a no lynch for scum 9 times out of 10.

time to sleep I will probably not wake up for a while

[Elieson]

I skimmed all the walls and read Elie's long-promised blurb on me and it is bs like I expected and heavily exaggerates my stance changes on Manix. For one thing I haven't even been active enough to flip-flop as much as he claims I have. I started the game thinking he was suspicious for RVS stuff, moved him to the "wary of" pile, voted him for consolidation over Paper near end of phase, and then concluded afterwards that Manix was probably town due to his claim. While the strength of my read varies, there's only one actual flip-flop in my read of his alignment.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3021909 = Manix is Voteworthy. Also, is j00 a scumread, since you promised to inflict PRs to scummy people?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3025099 = Taking back his manix-is-voteworthy vote, by taking back his reasoning for finding manix scummy (I think)

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3025837 = Manix is voteworthy again. Later, votes him for the consolidation vote

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&view=findpost&p=3027434 = Manix's claim isn't a scumclaim, so he's not voteworthy *except for consolidation* anymore?

This is scumdar evolution of a Scum-NotScum-Scum-NotScum pattern. SOOOOO I guess you're not flipflopping over Manix after all /sarcasm

Also he keeps bringing up these connections between me and Manix that only make sense if we're scumbuddies, except he stated that he doesn't think Manix is scum. Okay, I switched my vote away from Manix and prevented a last second hammer. Does that mean we are scumbuddies Elie? Because newsflash, a mislynch is better than a no lynch for scum 9 times out of 10.

Pretty sure that I'm actually repeating the same point. Also, pretty sure that I explained my thought process on the scenario.

Also, as I said, the only thing that made me consider manix not being scum was his roleclaim.

Also also, i brought "keep bringing this up" because Strege asked me to clarify my thoughts on you, and Conqueror asked me to clarify my thoughts on you. So by beating the dead horse of "Yes, Eli thinks this, do we understand now?", I'm hoping that I don't have to "Keep bringing this up". If people would stop asking me to point them back to my previous posts, then I wouldn't keep talking about it.

Also also also, newsflash. You're more wrong than you realize, because a Day 1 mislynch gives town information that they need to use as foundations for future cases, and a Day 1 NoLynch essentially means that Day 2 is a continuation of Day 1, with Role Results that people probably aren't outting. Sure Conq's outted his weird vote=vig thing, you've outted your Vote+PR thing, and I've outed that I was delayed for whatever reason+Insomniac thing, but I'd love to hear you tell me how D1 mislynches don't help town in any way. What has town gained from not lynching yesterday?

He also makes a huge deal of me switching my vote to Conq and about how I didn't explain it until prodded. Paperblade talked about how we should have voted Conq and then literally the very next post I switched my vote there.

Paperblade, on 07 Apr 2014 - 8:00 PM, said:

it occurs to me that we probably should have tried to activate Conq's role

BigPlaysMeteor, on 07 Apr 2014 - 8:00 PM, said:

still time?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Conq

What, Paperblade was that convincing in the few seconds before Phase End

I'm going to bed

[eclipse]

Now for something with more detail!

I'm not quoting that. Will be grabbing bits from that in generic quote tags, then shove them into spoilers (if this makes the game hard to read for some of you, lemme know).

The post itself is entirely neutral, and the hypocrisy at the end just doesn't set well with me. It seems more like eclipse is more concerned with where her vote should be placed, rather than where she wants to place it

Emotional provocation aside, at that time my reads mostly consist of town people, with inactivity being a huge factor in the non-town reads (you're somewhat part of the inactivity issue, but RL is being a pain and keeping a lot of people away). I don't feel like flipping a coin and hoping that my target comes back.

That being said, using your imagination, can you even consider anything that it could be? I've got a handful of ideas, all not worth blurting out

. . .not really. Then again, I've been pretty tired these past few days, and dealing with someone RL that makes the worst mafia players here look like saints (and I'm doing my best not to take that out on the game).

I'm mentioning Kaoz "quite a bit" because people are inquiring to my thoughts, and commenting on me not voting for the person at the bottom of my list. Pretty sure that responding to people is something that you're supposed to do, regardless of alignment even. Vhaltz, left no notes regarding his thoughts on Kaoz; I've only got his ingame posts to interpret, which are a bit of a mystery in their own rite. Also conq dedicated one sentence to Kaoz in there. Not sure how I'm linked to him in any special way, unless everyone who did things liek consolidate on paperblade are all linked in some way, due to varying degrees of conversation

(screw formatting)

That Conq one-sentence is basically my thoughts on Kaoz when I posted that. It's also an associative read because IIRC no one held down Vhaltz and asked him for reads on Kaoz - he volunteered them.

Still concerning, and still difficult to work with. Still antitown too. A vote somewhere is doing something. A vote in your pocket applies no pressure, and generates no discussion, especially this far in.

The pedant in me says that not voting generates discussion, albeit about myself. The other half of me was busy, and I wound up going to bed much later than anticipated because of my laundry (which is really bad for my physical health).

(second reference)

How is this even relevant? You weren't even a likely candidate, it was either going to be Manix or Paperblade. Just comes across as a way to comment on the situation without giving any opinions on Manix's playerslot.

At this point, I'm more concerned about EVERYONE not losing the game, as opposed to my survival, since I don't need to be alive to win. I don't like how you twisted this.

How is my eclipse case bad? I agree that my ED1 suspicion based on her role was lame, but I feel like everything else has been pretty bro.

You post this directly after this:

BS, if your vote was purely for consolidation than maybe you should've voted for people with more votes on them. Additionally, I didn't come across SB asking about consolidation on Paper in a cursory ISO, so either you should just quote it in some way and prove me wrong (why you wouldn't do that in this post itself is beyond me) or it never happened.

Also your responses to Paperblade are like obvious padding. Surely you could save that for postgame?

You're attempting to use negative emotion to argue a point that I stated directly in my vote post, and explained in a previous post in this day phase. This tells me that you're me tunneling hard, and won't give me up as a scum read. I'll respond to you, but at this point, I think that one of us needs to go (and I don't care which one of us it is).

Oh come on, this is ridiculous. You just said you didn't like my D1 vote, but then my D2 hop is bad. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Also what exactly did SB say that made you feel like placing a vote that you could have done at the beginning of the phase?

I think I said I'm missing stuff? Yeah, it comes with being distracted while playing. I'm sure I could've tunneled you all of D2, but what would that have accomplished?

Personally, I'd advocate a vig on either Manix or Balcerzak because in general I think more inactive players should be vigged because they're harder to read (well, Manix isn't inactive persay but read my complaints about his lack of suspicions). Yeah, they're my bottom two scum reads but in general I think that people who post a lot should be lynched the normal way because it provides better associative reads as a whole if they end up flipping town. Also I'd like people to state whether or not they would lynch eclipse, because 1) I feel like a lot of people are stating suspicions of eclipse without taking a definite stance and 2) Fucking Day 1 No Lynch.

I'd sooner be shot, so you're free to discuss other things.

Basically, your role doesn't mean anything for me regarding alignment, it's your content. You're busy at all, but you still spend the time you've got on arguing with refa and defend yourself, and those gut reads seems to be mainly on people attacking you. Got anything on anyone else?

This also applies to me, and I'm not proud of saying this.

@eclipse: I don't see how the vote being sloppy equates to it being scummy, considering he was acknowledging it as such and had good reason for it?

I think putting a vote down on anyone without reading at this point would be sloppy, and I'd expect to be called out for it. I can also argue WIFOM, but I think it's a relatively weak point, and will not generate a response I think would be beneficial to the game.

I thought Vhaltz had posted more than enough not-meta to analyze some of, and really that it was strange that you'd discard it all and say you're waiting for a solid read based on the arbitrary bounds of a post. I was asking here what in your Vhaltz read was actually based on scummy behaviour (I don't get the whole passivity thing, though I think I get the meta thing now). I'll go back and reread though since I'm being very dumb this game, apparently. I can't find the Refa stuff and your stuff on him looks okay? As for the rest I wanted to see if you were acknowledging my points or brushing them off as nothing.

It's hard to tell where you're at considering schedules and you having to respond to all kinds of stuffs, so my read on you is sort of stagnant.

I disagree with the amount of non-meta Vhaltz had posted about that, but I don't see this point going anywhere. When tone drops from neutral to passive, especially over someone that has very little said about them, it catches my attention. As for my read, see how I interact with other people, if it helps.

Why it's fluff? Because she's explaining things that everyone should know. If I spend 1/3 of a post saying that I know what my RolePM says, and it's in mafia's best interest to know what their RolePM says too, well then, what am I bringing to the table? it's fluff because it doesn't contribute to scumhunting, and it doesn't really even explain how to scumhunt/, it just explains how to play the game.

Normally, I'd agree, but you're missing context. Look at what j00 says, and then match up what you think is fluff to that. It's relevant because it explains my logic; hence, not fluff.

Lemme see if I can find pertinent stuff NOT about me.

[Conqueror]

wow I was expecting a vigshot Conq I am disappoint

Also, now that I am thinking more about it, how does this go together with your claim that you get an ability when you get voted?

Chargeable ability. One charge per 4 end-of-day votes, or per no-lynch (that resets the vote counter). I didn't mention the latter because I didn't think it was going to happen; plus it wouldn't be helpful to know anyway.

I was refreshing the page expecting a Balcerzak post, but at this point I'm pretty convinced he's lurking on purpose.

And sorry to whoever said I should shoot an active instead of an inactive. Sorry, but if there's someone who's relatively inactive and scummy to boot, then that's always where my vig is going to go.

##Kill Balcerzak

I am going to hope Prims is around to post a flip. I'll catch up with the thread of the thread in the meantime I guess.

[Prims]

PHASE PAUSE SHUT UP

[Prims]

Day 2.4 - Modscene

Conq, I never did assume you to be defending me. If anything I believe you are merely poking at my crumb to confirm if I am indeed leading a PR, and given my disadvantageous position naturally I am forced to respond regardless. Your willingness to simply hammer without even commenting on the inanity of the scenario also baffles me. Considering at how fast a pace things developed, and even, BBM's argument was one I personally do believe is directly contradictory to what I have said. I honestly, genuinely never did expect things to progress to such a state.

But if anything, I am here to state that Bal has fallen from my radar since and is classified as a ''lurker''. You may draw the relevance of the degradation by refering to Page 10, where Bal made an argument rather similar to BBM's one. If you find BBM's case on me strong and persuasive, then I believe me finding Bal's case strong and persuasive too isn't that far an extension. I have my doubts my BBM because he didn't have that great of a history. But Bal WAS a stellar townie, I have no more qualms against her now that she has shown that at least she's been thinking, and naturally, I wouldn't sheep a case which I do not even agree upon in the first place.

Wait no I have fucked up Bal has fallen from my radar and is now a "town flip"

Balcerzak - Rche - Town Miller / Motivator - killed Day 2

Phase continues. Updated votals coming whenever flood control ends.

[Prims]

Day 2.5 - Votals

Refa (3) - Manix, eclipse, Scarlet

SB (2) - Strege, Elieson

Strege (2) - Conqueror, SB

Elieson (1) - BigBangMeteor

eclipse (1) - Refa

Manix (1) - j00

Not Voting (1): Kaoz

You have 18 hours left in the day. With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Conqueror]

Screw you and your modscenes, Prims.

Great, now I have read all this junk in the past few pages.

[Conqueror]

Going to post in chunks until I can decide on a vote because I'm too tired to organize this.

Finally read all of Elieson's latest posts and at this point, combined with Vhaltz's posts, I'm thinking he's town. The point about a lynch on Manix being possible at the last minute is actually plausible, even if I don't think BBM's switch away from Manix was intrinsically scummy since deadline makes people do dumb stuff. To be honest BBM, I find your initial argument about Elieson's mixed up priorities about as convincing or less than his argument on you, give I've never seen any posts following-the-game notes that weren't confusing and contradictory in some way. BBM, why do you think Elie is scum at this point?

For the record, I don't see BBM's switches in opinion of Manix to mean much given that I went through a similar change of opinion on Manix throughout the day, so imo Elieson you're exaggerating the change of opinion there. Although after going through those links I should probably ask this: BBM, why did you think Manix's claim didn't look like a scum claim anyway?

Also, now that I am thinking more about it, how does this go together with your claim that you get an ability when you get voted?

Now that I've answered, why did you ask in the first place?

[eclipse]

EW at that character. How could you, Prims. . .

Anyway, this explains why Bal questioned the ninja claim, though I wonder why he kept silent about his own miller one. Now I'm annoyed by his reluctance to talk about me. ;/

The immediate effect of this is to switch my read on Kaoz to null;

ALSO I AM THE BEST AT READING!

Also, what was the info I had that you were talking about?

. . .no idea what this was in reference to.

After doing a cursory run through ISOs, the only read that changes on Bal's flip is Kaoz back to null. Now, for something that has nothing to do with me. . .

I agree with SB about Strege's vote on him; Strege could be scum.

The second half of this is fluff, and yet Elieson, who has been all over BBM, has said nothing about it. I am disappoint.

Reference. While I disagree with BBM's mislynch/No Lynch logic, I think that the entire case between him/Elieson is transitioning from logical to emotional (which means it's going from relevant to headache-inducing). I can see where BBM is coming from, and given the last-minute circumstances, I think I would've done something similar. Not reading the third argument in this as anything but null - at this point, it feels more like a statement thrown in for the sake of completeness, rather than a point against BBM. Would like comments from Elieson/BBM about other people when they get the chance to do so - I feel like their argument is devolving into the hideous sibling of me/Refa, and that's not productive.

[Conqueror]

I pretty much disagree with all the SB cases on the table. Wouldn't lynch him. Like, @Elie, I don't see why someone can't admit they've been all over the place in the game and yet think that someone is voting them for completely baseless reasons.