FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Inui]

Time to attack my list of stuff to do. First order of business: Isadora needs to shoot up at least a whole tier if not more.

Isadora >> Lyn.

Isadora's durability is way better than Lyn's. Lyn doesn't have Isadora's base HP until 19/0 and doesn't have her base Def until after promotion. Isadora maintains big durability wins on her due to this since Isadora won't be anywhere near her base when Lyn finally promotes. On top of beating Lyn in HP/Def when she shows up, she has full WT control and doesn't have to worry about lances, swords, and the Swordreaver Fighters everywhere in her joining chapter. In fact, she kinda rapes everything there.

As for her Con, why not give her a Body Ring? Sure, it's a resource that she's taking from the team, but it's still 2,000 Gold cheaper than a promotional item and nobody else really cares about it. Other Paladins? Already have good Con. Guy and Raven? Already have gdlk Spd and ignore Spd losses. Magic tomes are light and the users of said tomes have good Spd, so they don't really care for it. Also, I think you get two of them, so she only needs to get one. If Isadora gets a Body Ring, she's suddenly doubling Mercs with Silver and has far more doubling potential with axes, which ups her offense by quite a bit. It's a clear and noticeable benefit. Unless someone can provide a better candidate for one of the Body Rings than Isadora if you're fielding her, then she should be assumed to get it, and any penalty for consuming a resource is matched or straight up countered by her offense and durability noticable shooting up into the high tier range. Even if one other better choice exists, there are two to use.

So, yeah, she is thoroughly destroying Lyn forever and ever because she's not locked to 20/0 for a long time, doesn't cost a ton of cash to promote, and has significantly more durability and mobility.

Victory or Death!

Isadora: Level 20/14 Paladin

HP: 37.8

STR: 16.9

SKL: 16.6

SPD: 22.4

LUK: 15.9

DEF: 10.6

RES: 9.2

CON: 6 + 2

MOV: 8

Swords, Lances, Axes

B Harken/B Geitz/C Marcus: 1 Atk, 1 Def/Res, 20 Hit, 25 Evd, 22 Crit, 20 Crit Evd

Enemy Attack Speed Values

Limstella: 10 AS

9 Armour Knights: 2 AS x 4, 3 AS x 3, 4 AS x 2

3 Generals: 5 AS, 6 AS, 7 AS

4 Heroes: 17 AS, 15 AS, 17 AS, 14 AS

3 Bishops: 3 AS, 3 AS, 12 AS

1 Sage: 8 AS

5 Druids: 2 AS, 5 AS x 4

23 Shamans: 0 AS x 8, 1 AS x 11, 2 AS x 3

5 Brigands: 7 AS, 6 AS, 6 AS, 6 AS, 6 AS, 4 AS

14 Cavaliers: 6 AS x 7, 7 AS 6, 8 AS

3 Warriors: 7 AS, 12 AS, 12 AS

5 Paladins: 10 AS, 12 AS x 3, 13 AS

6 Snipers: 11 AS, 10 As, 12 AS, 11 AS, 10 AS, 12 AS

24 Wyvern Riders: 7 AS x 2, 8 AS x 14, 9 As x 5, 10 AS x 2, 12 AS x 2

6 Wyvern Lords: 12 AS x 5, 13 AS, 14 AS

1 Swordmaster: 24 AS(24 Atk, 62 Crit)

5 Nomadic Troopers: 16/15 AS, 15/14 AS, 14/13 AS, 17/16 AS, 15/14 AS

20 Valkyries: 13 AS, 14 AS x 3, 15 AS x 12, 16 AS x 4

8 FalcoKnights: 8 AS, 9 AS x 5, 10 AS, 11 AS

Isadorable doubles every enemy in the chapter besides the Swordmaster that only Guy doubles. Doubling with Silvers/Killers, which she can probably afford due to costing 2,000 Gold less than anything that promoted (-8,000 from the usual advantage due to eating Body Ring), means awesome offense. Nothing survives her criticals besides Generals and Wyvern Lords, but having issues killing those faggots is something almost every unit suffers from, ESPECIALLY garbage like Lyn, Jaffar, and Karel that are a tier or two above Isadora.

ENEMY LV HP ST SK SP LC DE RE MV CN WEAPONS
LIMSTELLA 20 70 26 22 19 00 21 25 06 04 BOLTING, FIMBULVETR
KNIGHT 16 32 13 08 03 00 15 04 04 13 STEEL LANCE
GENERAL 08 43 17 11 07 00 21 12 05 15 SILVER LANCE
SNIPER 08 39 16 15 12 00 10 09 06 08 SILVER BOW (+LONGBOW)
DRUID 08 32 23 12 13 00 08 17 06 08 FENRIR, NOSFERATU / NOSFERATU
WYVERNRIDER 16 35 15 10 11 00 14 03 07 10 KILLER LANCE / HORSESLAYER / AXEREAVER
WYVERN LORD 08 47 21 14 14 00 17 07 08 11 SILVER LANCE / STEEL LANCE
PALADIN 06 43 16 13 12 00 12 09 08 11 STEEL LANCE / LONGSWORD / SILVER LANCE
HERO 08 44 15 18 17 00 15 09 06 10 SILVER AXE (+ LIGHT BRAND) / SILVER SWORD, HAND AXE
HERO 20 52 18 21 19 00 17 11 06 10 SILVER AXE, LIGHT BRAND
SWORDMASTER 20 46 18 23 22 00 12 11 06 09 WO DAO
WARRIOR 08 51 21 14 13 00 10 06 06 13 SILVER AXE / DEVIL AXE, KILLER BOW
BRIGAND 16 35 15 07 09 00 06 03 05 12 STEEL AXE
SAGE 10 34 19 14 13 00 09 18 06 07 BOLTING, FIMBULVETR
BISHOP 08 34 15 13 11 00 07 20 06 07 AURA, PURGE / AURA, FORTITY, BERSERK
PALADIN 08 44 16 13 13 00 12 10 08 11 SILVER SWORD
VALKYRIE 08 32 15 12 18 00 08 20 08 06 ELFIRE, PHYSIC
MAGE 16 27 12 10 10 00 05 09 05 06 ELFIRE
SAGE 06 32 17 13 13 00 09 16 06 07 ELFIRE, BOLTING
MONK 20 30 08 09 10 00 04 14 05 06 LIGHTNING
SHAMAN 16 26 12 08 08 00 05 10 05 07 NOSFERATU
NOMAD TROOP 06 37 16 15 17 00 11 08 08 08 STEEL BOW, STEEL SWORD
MAJOR REINFORCEMENTS:
WYVERNRIDER 16 35 15 10 11 00 14 03 07 10 STEEL LANCE
CAVALIER 16 34 12 10 11 00 09 03 07 09 STEEL LANCE
FALCOKNIGHT 10 38 16 17 17 00 09 14 08 06 STEEL LANCE
NOMAD TROOP 08 38 16 15 18 00 11 08 08 08 STEEL BOW, STEEL SWORD

There's some VoD enemy stats. Keep in mind that this is when Unit X's better growths kick in (not in the case of terribad Jaffar/Karel though) and she's still good. Look at the offensive parameters I posted. Then look at the enemies. Is Isadora outperforming Karel and Jaffar? Yup, definitely. She's even beating Karel in Crit and Jaffar in Atk overall. She's more mobile, she's more durable, and she has better offense.

Look at Jaffar's parameters:

20/16 Assassin

HP: 35.95

Str: 19.45

Skl: 26.2

Spd: 25.05

Lck: 10.6

Def: 15.9

Res: 11.9

Con: 8

Mov: 6

Swords

C Nino: 5 Hit, 2 Crit, 5 Evd, 2 Crit Evd

Differences between him and Isadora: Jaffar wins Def/Res, but loses Evd by a lot overall due to supports and WTC and he has a small loss in HP, so Isadora wins durability cleanly. Offensively, Jaffar doubles nothing she doubles, has much less Crit due to Isadora's supports, and loses Atk because Isadora has +1 from Harken and access to axes and lances for Atk boosts and WTA boosts. Slayer/effective weapons are at her disposal in various cases and huge Atk things like Silver Axes/Lances. Isadora has 1~2 range for countering all of those Shamans and whatever else and attacking things without taking a counter. Furthermore, she has +2 Mov.

Karel and Jaffar are extremely similar. In fact, Karel's 20/13 stats nearly mirror Jaffar's 20/13 bases and then they both have meh growths so it doesn't really change much. It looks like Jaffar has slightly better stats but Karel has +15% Crit and that's about all the differences between them. If Isadora is beating Jaffar, she's also beating Karel.

Before VoD, she has many chapters before Karel even joins, and when he joins she already provided usefulness when she was around and she continues to beat Karel when he's around. She has much more durability due to WT control and supports and mobility (can be used for better positioning and escaping). Karel's not doubling anything she isn't and doesn't have more Crit, but Isadora has lances and axes and 1~2 range.

Look at 20/8 Isadora and then look at Karel's 20/8 bases while keeping their classes in mind (2 Mov + lances + axes vs 15 Crit) and then consider supports and how nonviable Karel's are and that Isadora will have probably have C Geitz/C Marcus or something when Karel joins, and it's a clear win, and Karel never really getting supports while Isadora builds more and more shows a gap that only widens.

Jaffar's in an even worse position tbqh. No real support options, way less levels to gain, horrendous durability upon joining, having to compete with people in NoF and CoD, two chapters Isadora thrashes him in...

Durability comparison to a unit many tiers higher than her:

20/15 Lucius: 38 HP, 59 Evd, 12 Def

20/15 Isadora: 39 HP, 87 Evd, 12 Def, WTA

Silver Lance!General: 38 Hit on Lucius, 0 Hit on Isadora. Lucius is also killed in two hits.

Silver Bow!Sniper: 46 Hit on Lucius, 28 Hit on Isadora.

Silver Lance!Wyvern Lord: 44 Hit on Lucius, 11 Hit on Isadora. Lucius is killed in two hits even if he's on a fort.

Silver Sword!Hero: 57 Hit on Lucius, 20 Hit on Isadora.

Do I have to do more to make her go up?

Because they are the best units for Experience, it makes sense to be using both of them. Often the size of available deployment prohibits using them both on the same map. Healers like being leveled for avoid, so they don't mind if an Archer or mage takes a potshot at them. If you focus entirely on Serra until she promotes before trying to use Priscilla at all, her already poor durability will be even worse, as the enemies have grown and she has not.

Use both at once. Always. If they miss out on a chapter, they promote even later, and healing is always awesome for progress and Experience. That was my real point.

Recruiting Raven. You can't realistically bring both, because you need all the combat you can get to rush to get the northern Thief, if you have Matthew in the lower area pilfering, Florina waiting to ferry him (per your suggestion), and two useless healers, that leaves you four combat units trying to clear out the horde clogging up the end of the central corridor. If that's not a nightmare, I don't know what is.

You don't need all the combat you can get. You need Marcus, Lowen, Sain, Kent, and Priscilla to blitzkrieg forward since they are the only that can, which leaves everyone else in the dust. Matthew steals and then gets ferried north by Florina or something to get the final item. Oswin hangs back to fight the reinforcements. That still leaves a few empty slots for Serra and whatever else.

@Mekkah: The Silver Sword is obtainable without raping Tactics, but I suppose you have a good point.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Inui]

Marcus is the best character in the game.

[Life]

For Ranking runs? No.

I don't know which one proves more that I have no life: Reading arguments about Fire Emblem and responding to them or watching curling with my friends (Canada vs. Germany). Either one can't be good, right?

[Inui]

Read my post, scr00b. I'm tired of being ignored so much here when I mutilate half the shit on every tier list.

[Life]

Read my post, scr00b. I'm tired of being ignored so much here when I mutilate half the shit on every tier list.

I've already read it. That was the point of the second half of my post.

He's not the best character in the game when it comes to ranking runs. I know that his great purple beard can lift forklifts and all that jazz. But he's still not the best plainly because he trades Exp for Tactics. If him killing gave as much Exp as Hector killing, then yes he'd be the best. But it doesn't and he's not.

And the curling was actually pretty intense.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Inui]

But his Tactics awesomeness hurting Experience is made up for almost ten fold when you enter 32x because of what he did.

[Life]

But his Tactics awesomeness hurting Experience is made up for almost ten fold when you enter 32x because of what he did.

I've S Ranked HHM without going to 32x. It's called "limiting Marcus' kills and using him in other ways".

Besides, you only field Hector + 4 units in 32x. It's not helping Exp as much as it should be.

[Colonel M]

I'm not ignoring your argument Inui, but I do post two questions:

- 1) Without 23 and 23X (former is desert, latter with deployment slot issues), this leaves Isadora ~10 chapters, at which you gave her a level per chapter. Knowing the EXP rank well, there are some hefty requirements for this. Taking 24 Linus, you have 1850 EXP required to continue 5 Star ranking EXP rank. With Isadora getting a rather low EXP rank (taking a Level 10 Mercenary, this equates about 5.6 EXP per hit, so truncated to 5. I'm trying to figure out the amount of EXP that she gets, but I'm rather busy.

- 2) While I admit she can save money, she's already making the EXP rank questionable. With the Body Ring, this means that she takes 2000 Gold more on top of her equipment, which she severely needs anything that is "good". I'd also say the Tome users would love that Body Ring, especially Canas since that means less AS loss from Luna or Nosferatu. I might dig further into this myself.

As for her rising, I put her earlygame durability as suspect. An 8 Def base with a 20% growth is rather atrocious. Using the Level 10 Mercenary w/Steel Sword, with the Killer Lance equipped (I'll be kind and give her Spd proc, which makes her Avoid 53), they have 47-50% displayed on Isadora while doing 8-9 damage per round. With her 29 HP (yeah I was kind again), this is a 4RKO. To calculate her CoD in 4 attacks, it's about 4.8%. That's pretty steep for dying in just 4 rounds. Obviously Lyndis has hers as well, but she also has a free resource with the Mani Katti (it's 0 Gold for a 45 use weapon that's effective on AKs and Cavaliers, the latter especially useful) and even though she's Player Phase only, she makes a good source of it. She's at least of need to hit Level 15 if we're getting Geitz, which I'd assume we're getting since it's an easier map and Wallace is in dirt Bottom anyway. On top of this, she actually has reasonable supports that come at a good pace. Florina is a 76+4 support, one of the fastest supports in the game (even faster than Eliwood + Hector, though it'll likely be near a B once they arrive). Kent is also at an okay speed of 20+3, so it's reasonable to see these supports come into play. With Isadora, she has a quick Harken support, which I'll admit to. The Cavs, however, are almost reserved. Lowen wants B Eliwood / Marcus, and Marcus wants B Lowen. I guess B Marcus can come at a semi-reasonable time.

Finally I do question on what supports are almost guaranteed. While FE6 Ranks has many more turncounts to abuse the support system, I know for a fact that FE7 doesn't have as much leniency. Even with some of the mediocre speed supports such as Sain X Kent are pretty slow in the efficiency's tier list. This should probably have a discussion on the matter.

As for Isadora: I'm going to lower Karel / Jaffar / Lyn instead. Lyn should top Low atm, while Karel and Jaffar I'll put under Isadora for now. If anyone wants to challenge this, feel free to. I know Jaffar has the advantage of his class and Silencer for not destroying the EXP Rank.

[Inui]

Isadora's durability is a problem?

20/7 Priscilla (A Erk/B Guy) has 29.4 HP/8.4 Def (68.4 Avo).

20/1 Lyn has 32.3 HP/8.8 Def (59-66 Avo).

Lyn beats her in both parameters at 6 levels lower, and then Priscilla’s HP growth is 40, Lyn’s is 70; Priscilla’s Def growth is 15, Lyn’s is 20.

So why is Priscilla top tier again?

lol

- 1) Without 23 and 23X (former is desert, latter with deployment slot issues), this leaves Isadora ~10 chapters, at which you gave her a level per chapter. Knowing the EXP rank well, there are some hefty requirements for this. Taking 24 Linus, you have 1850 EXP required to continue 5 Star ranking EXP rank. With Isadora getting a rather low EXP rank (taking a Level 10 Mercenary, this equates about 5.6 EXP per hit, so truncated to 5. I'm trying to figure out the amount of EXP that she gets, but I'm rather busy.

I totally ignore Experience rank requirements. I'm too busy shaving turns for 32x. Getting ~400 EXP for every turn is fucking insane, and I want that more than I want measly gains anywhere else.

- 2) While I admit she can save money, she's already making the EXP rank questionable. With the Body Ring, this means that she takes 2000 Gold more on top of her equipment, which she severely needs anything that is "good". I'd also say the Tome users would love that Body Ring, especially Canas since that means less AS loss from Luna or Nosferatu. I might dig further into this myself.

There are two; Canas can have the other. Even with the Body Ring, she's +2,000 Gold over unpromoted units, which can be converted into uses of awesome weapons for her.

As for her rising, I put her earlygame durability as suspect. An 8 Def base with a 20% growth is rather atrocious. Using the Level 10 Mercenary w/Steel Sword, with the Killer Lance equipped (I'll be kind and give her Spd proc, which makes her Avoid 53), they have 47-50% displayed on Isadora while doing 8-9 damage per round. With her 29 HP (yeah I was kind again), this is a 4RKO. To calculate her CoD in 4 attacks, it's about 4.8%. That's pretty steep for dying in just 4 rounds. Obviously Lyndis has hers as well, but she also has a free resource with the Mani Katti (it's 0 Gold for a 45 use weapon that's effective on AKs and Cavaliers, the latter especially useful) and even though she's Player Phase only, she makes a good source of it. She's at least of need to hit Level 15 if we're getting Geitz, which I'd assume we're getting since it's an easier map and Wallace is in dirt Bottom anyway. On top of this, she actually has reasonable supports that come at a good pace. Florina is a 76+4 support, one of the fastest supports in the game (even faster than Eliwood + Hector, though it'll likely be near a B once they arrive). Kent is also at an okay speed of 20+3, so it's reasonable to see these supports come into play. With Isadora, she has a quick Harken support, which I'll admit to. The Cavs, however, are almost reserved. Lowen wants B Eliwood / Marcus, and Marcus wants B Lowen. I guess B Marcus can come at a semi-reasonable time.

What level is Isadora in that comparison?

Lyn can't even possibly have Isadora's base HP/Def until Chapter 26, lol. Meanwhile, Isadora is vastly outperforming her from when she joins up until that point, and she continues to be better for quite some time after that. Lyn doesn't overtake her until VoD or later.

Marcus and Lowen get an A since Lowen can't do that with anyone else reasonably and it builds quickly and starts extremely early. Marcus can be Isadora's B/C on top of Geitz and Harken filling other slots. Isadora's definitely getting some supports and will be totally full by VoD or even slightly sooner.

Finally I do question on what supports are almost guaranteed. While FE6 Ranks has many more turncounts to abuse the support system, I know for a fact that FE7 doesn't have as much leniency. Even with some of the mediocre speed supports such as Sain X Kent are pretty slow in the efficiency's tier list. This should probably have a discussion on the matter.

Geitz and Harken have nobody else and Marcus could use a B/C somewhere. Isadora fits it all perfectly and it's within the Tactics rank if you check.

As for Isadora: I'm going to lower Karel / Jaffar / Lyn instead. Lyn should top Low atm, while Karel and Jaffar I'll put under Isadora for now. If anyone wants to challenge this, feel free to. I know Jaffar has the advantage of his class and Silencer for not destroying the EXP Rank.

Isadora is a tier better than Lyn. I thought I made that clear. I guess I can do even more about it later.

Inui says (12:46 AM):

is isadora a tier above lyn?

Solid says (12:46 AM):

yeah Isadora is massively underrated

Inui says (12:46 AM):

thought so

Solid says (12:46 AM):

I mean

Lyn is fail

I wouldn't even put her at top of low

she just fails too much

I know Reikken also made arguments for Isadora being way better than Lyn, too. I'm also sure CATS agrees with them.

[frat_tastic]

Personally I feel hard pressed to accept Karel and Jaffar as lower than Isadora if they have "trash" durability and offense, while said durability and offense is about the same as Isadora, if not better.

The levels, supports, and evidence provided in favor of Isadora doesn't seem sound in terms of S-Ranking. She won't have full supports regardless, and she goes supportless for a while (Harken is guaranteed, Geitz however is slow so she likely isn't getting much if anything from him, and Marcus has other options so she isn't guaranteed his support by any means), the EXP. rank requirements mean she could be at a lower level than the one you've provided, and she certainly isn't guaranteed the Body Ring (the pegs want it fo sho, any of the mages wouldn't mind it so they can use their ridiculously heavy more powerful tomes, Lyn or Guy could take it to reduce AS loss).

So basically for Isadora to be better than Jaffar or Karel, she has to be taking possibly more EXP than is good for the rank, get supports that either come late or are difficult because of the Tactics rank, and take use an item to reduce her AS loss that other people also would take.

I'm not saying these things CANT happen, and that something can certainly be said of Isadora's better availability, but her meh durability upon recruitment and needing all those factors make it hard to just outright accept Isadora as better unless you can prove that she should undeniably get all of the above, and that it doesn't hurt you to do so.

[Inui]

NEWSFLASH: THE EXPERIENCE RANK IS MADE UP FOR WITH STAFF SPAMMING, NINIAN/NILS USE, AND CHAPTER 32X, AND YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT AS LONG AS YOU DO THOSE THREE THINGS.

Excerpt from Inui vs Reaver:

I am looking at 32x right now. I see one level 12 Berserker, many level 14 Berserkers, and some level 18 and 20 Berserkers. There are 16 total on the map at first plus Kishuna. I warped a unit to Kishuna (huge EXP for Warp) and 6 more level 14 Berserkers showed up, but I undid that because that unit can't win. My 20/9 Hector got 60 fucking EXP for one kill on a level 18 Berserker, and he's not the 20/1 Assassin I suggested for this chapter. Eliwood got 20 for attacking it. 1 reinforcement appeared. 2 more appeared the next turn. Then 2 more. 1 more. 1 more. 1 more. Opened the door, 2 more. Then 2 more. Then 2 more. I was capable of killing Kishuna and ending the chapter by turn 10, as I thought. The Assassins are likely to double his 25 Spd with their Killing Edges and if that fails you have range to finish him off. How many 20/14+ Berserkers was that by turn 10? That's 30.

Are you fucking kidding me? Marcus stealing 1,200 EXP to make this possible is a problem for you? Even if you gain only 50 EXP per kill here, you're getting 1,500 EXP, which is already a surplus. And 1,500 EXP is pathetic for this chapter. You should bring in 20/1 Assassins for massive EXP padding since that's the entire point of this chapter. They start off getting 100 and then it drops slightly but Silencer boosts it a bit to keep it pretty high overall. There are going to be instances where you attack or get attacked but don't get kills even with high Crit and stuff like that, and that shit happened to me and I still was in position to kill Kishuna by turn ten. Physic healing will happen and someone can use Warp and stuff like that, so +200 more EXP or something, so ~3,200 EXP is possible in this chapter alone if you play it right and blitzkrieg. But wait, I'm not done yet! On turn 12, 6 more Berserkers show up! You need two units raping the ones that show up near Kishuna, your healer can kill the one near the starting point, and you can send out two more units to clear the rest. They move towards you to make it easier. Then, 6 more show up! Then 6 more! Then 4 more! Then 4 more! Then 4 more! The last group showed up on turn 17.

Let's summarize this. We shall consider each enemy to be 80 EXP to make up for decreasing EXP gains from the initial huge ones. We'll use Physic for 11 EXP 3/4 of the time. Let's assume Marcus did tons of blitzkrieg earlier and deprived your team of a staggering 2,500 EXP and you finished other stuff really quickly, like Four-Fanged Offense, Night of Farewells, etc. since it's not too hard. Let's dump 17 saved turns into this chapter since the EXP gains are fucking through the roof. We have 60 Berserkers to feast on! 60 x 80 = 4,800, then Physic 13 times for 143 EXP, and holy dick, we're nearing 5,000 EXP for one fucking chapter if you use my Assassin idea and bring in other lower level units, and that's slightly over 12% of your entire Experience rank needs in a single chapter that Marcus played a big role in making possible.

FURTHERMORE, KAREL AND HIS FAILURE STATS AND 12 LEVELS AND JAFFAR'S FAILURE STATS AND 7 LEVELS SUCK COMPARED TO ISADORA'S BETTER STATS AND 19 LEVELS.

ALSO, IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT ISADORA'S DURABILITY:

Isadora's durability is a problem?

20/7 Priscilla (A Erk/B Guy) has 29.4 HP/8.4 Def (68.4 Avo).

20/1 Lyn has 32.3 HP/8.8 Def (59-66 Avo).

Lyn beats her in both parameters at 6 levels lower, and then Priscilla’s HP growth is 40, Lyn’s is 70; Priscilla’s Def growth is 15, Lyn’s is 20.

So why is Priscilla top tier again?

ISADORA OWNS LYN IN DURABILITY AND OWNS PRISCILLA BY EVEN MORE.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Rodykitty]

I think a lot of Inui's comparisons to top/high tier comparisons ignore availability and utility, and in Priscilla's case, the role of a unit.

Priscilla's durability is not good, but it does not create as many problems as it does for Lyn because she doesn't have to put herself into dangerous situations. Danger only comes to her if holes are open, while Lyn needs to purposely taking huge risks with little reward. Promotion gives Priscilla ranged attacking, and she has very high Res, so she can either attack a 1-range or bow unit safely, or the one type of enemy she's guaranteed to take damage from (Mages) will do less damage than other enemies, with the exception of Luna druids which no character wishes to fight.

Priscilla also doesn't need to see combat to gain EXP.

I honestly don't know why Priscilla is top tier, since it involves other reasons I never paid attention to, but by no means is a vague comparison of Lyn's durability to Priscilla's a telling story at all.

NEWSFLASH: THE EXPERIENCE RANK IS MADE UP FOR STAFF SPAMMING

Or this might be a good reason for her being so high.

I think what's also ignored is the availability gap between Lucius and Isadora (it is five chapters, but still significant).

One other thing I want to say, the gaps between characters in FE7 are much smaller than in other games. Isadora being two tiers under somebody is not actually as big of a power gap as it implies. Again, availability is a factor.

Edited February 17, 2010 by FE3 Player

[frat_tastic]

Isadora, 20/10, C Marcus

34.75 HP, 15.7 ATK, 42 HIT, 20.5 AS, 9.8 DEF, 8.25 RES, 60 AVO

Karel, 20/8

31 HP, 16 ATK, 53 HIT, 20 AS, 13 DEF, 12 RES, 55 AVO, 26 CRIT

Isadora will have more ATK thanks to lances and axes, but then her AS will drop significantly (-4 for just an Iron Axe). Karel actually can use a Steel Sword (same stats as Iron Axe) for equal attack and only -1 AS.

This is also with a completely inflated level for Isadora (9 levels in 7 chapters, one of which is the Desert).

If Karel's stats are FAILURE so are Isadora's. They're just trash for longer, which means she's actually dragging you down. Is this what you're implying when you call Karel's stats failure?

Edited February 17, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Inui]

I think a lot of Inui's comparisons to top/high tier comparisons ignore availability and utility, and in Priscilla's case, the role of a unit.

I do not ignore utility at all, but I find SF to overrated availability massively, since being awesome when you are there is what truly counts.

Priscilla's durability is not good, but it does not create as many problems as it does for Lyn because she doesn't have to put herself into dangerous situations. Danger only comes to her if holes are open, while Lyn needs to purposely taking huge risks with little reward. Promotion gives Priscilla ranged attacking, and she has very high Res, so she can either attack a 1-range or bow unit safely, or the one type of enemy she's guaranteed to take damage from (Mages) will do less damage than other enemies, with the exception of Luna druids which no character wishes to fight.

Priscilla also doesn't need to see combat to gain EXP.

Lyn is horrible horrendous trash. I'm well aware that Priscilla overall thrashes Lyn even if she doesn't ever enter combat. It's just that...Priscilla is limited due to her durability. It limits where she can safely go, it limits what she can attack safely, and it makes her enemy phase usefulness stay bottom tier forever. Those are faults. Other top tiers do not possess these faults beyond the dancers, but they have insane h4x.

I honestly don't know why Priscilla is top tier, since it involves other reasons I never paid attention to, but by no means is a vague comparison of Lyn's durability to Priscilla's a telling story at all.

I don't think she should be top tier. People just assume it without exploring it. After I found her promotional problems and a way to rape the Experience rank, it should be clear she's not THAT good.

Or this might be a good reason for her being so high.

Serra can do the same thing and then Lucius/Erk/Canas after promotion, except they all can promote earlier and have better stats.

I think what's also ignored is the availability gap between Lucius and Isadora (it is five chapters, but still significant).

Lucius is better than Isadora. I wasn't questioning that. I merely showed that Isadora compares to him when she's around despite the big tier gap. Isadora destroying Lyn is really obvious. Why do you people think Lyn doesn't fail?

One other thing I want to say, the gaps between characters in FE7 are much smaller than in other games. Isadora being two tiers under somebody is not actually as big of a power gap as it implies. Again, availability is a factor.

Two tiers is pretty significant. I don't know what you're talking about.

Isadora, 20/10, C Marcus

34.75 HP, 15.7 ATK, 42 HIT, 20.5 AS, 9.8 DEF, 8.25 RES, 60 AVO

Karel, 20/8

31 HP, 16 ATK, 53 HIT, 20 AS, 13 DEF, 12 RES, 55 AVO, 26 CRIT

Isadora will have more ATK thanks to lances and axes, but then her AS will drop significantly (-4 for just an Iron Axe). Karel actually can use a Steel Sword (same stats as Iron Axe) for equal attack and only -1 AS.

Did you miss my "Isadora should get a Body Ring if she's in play because nobody else really wants it, you have two, and it's foolish not to because of how much better it makes her" argument? SF likes to fap to Interceptor's similar arguments of "don't sandbag a unit" so I don't see why my logical argument won't work her. Only Canas and Isadora receive any real benefit from the item.

She's going to be rocking C Geitz super soon, probably during this chapter or right after, which is pretty g00d due to +5 Evd, +5 Crit, and her Def/Res getting +1.

If Karel's stats are FAILURE so are Isadora's. They're just trash for longer, which means she's actually dragging you down. Is this what you're implying when you call Karel's stats failure?

Isadora's power when she joins is good. She actually rapes everything in her joining chapter but Eubans. She has a period of time where she can put forth usefulness and she's definitely not putting forth suck. Her contributions in her joining chapter (rape) exceed anything Karel can ever hope to do. Have you ever thought about that? Isadora's class and supports then give her hope of being good later, while Karel has no such hope.

Then there's the cost of getting Karel. You don't get Harken. That's a huge blow. Isadora doesn't do that to you.

[frat_tastic]

No, I didn't miss your point about Isadora and the body ring, I just don't buy it.

She competes MAJORLY against Florina and Fiora (and Farina if you use her, which you've been advocating), Canas would love one (then he only loses 2 AS from Luna and 4 from Nosferatu), Erk wouldn't mind it (only 2 AS loss with Elfire), Serra could use it (eliminates AS loss from her basic tome, only -1 from Shine), Lucius could use it (no AS loss on Shine, only -3 with Divine). Isadora certainly benefits from it, but she's got competition for it, and thus is in no way guaranteed to get one.

I disagree with a lot of what Interceptor says anyway, but whatev.

Geitz also would take Karel or Fiora, but he wouldn't say no to Isadora, so fair enough.

I disagree with the extent Karel gets knocked for making you miss Harken, but that might just be me. Other units have their own costs, and I don't find eiter Harken or the Brave Sword to be gamebreaking enough to warrant a significant blow to Karel.

[Rodykitty]

I do not ignore utility at all, but I find SF to overrated availability massively, since being awesome when you are there is what truly counts.

Being awesome when you are there is less impressive when other characters have had utility before she has joined, and are matching or surpassing her during the time she exists.

Lyn is horrible horrendous trash. I'm well aware that Priscilla overall thrashes Lyn even if she doesn't ever enter combat. It's just that...Priscilla is limited due to her durability. It limits where she can safely go, it limits what she can attack safely, and it makes her enemy phase usefulness stay bottom tier forever. Those are faults. Other top tiers do not possess these faults beyond the dancers, but they have insane h4x.

Priscilla is nowhere near as limited as a unit with poor durability whose full usefulness is seeing combat. Even then, I do not believe Priscilla is limited from a player phase standpoint, due to the nature of Magic in general, as well as rescuing tactics.

Lucius is better than Isadora. I wasn't questioning that. I merely showed that Isadora compares to him when she's around despite the big tier gap. Isadora destroying Lyn is really obvious. Why do you people think Lyn doesn't fail?

The problem is that you are demanding far too much as far as Isadora's tier position is concerned. No, she is not going to move two tiers up just because she compares to Lucius during a time they both exist. You still haven't thought about the characters she is around other than saying that Karel is bottom tier and Lyn dropping.

Isadora's power when she joins is good. She actually rapes everything in her joining chapter but Eubans. She has a period of time where she can put forth usefulness and she's definitely not putting forth suck. Her contributions in her joining chapter (rape) exceed anything Karel can ever hope to do. Have you ever thought about that? Isadora's class and supports then give her hope of being good later, while Karel has no such hope.

Nobody is saying Isadora is useless, but being cool alone is not reason to rise, especially in a game where the majority of the cast is useful. Calling Karel worse than he actually is, is even less reason for us to listen to your arguments. Edited February 17, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Florete]

NEWSFLASH: THE EXPERIENCE RANK IS MADE UP FOR WITH STAFF SPAMMING, NINIAN/NILS USE, AND CHAPTER 32X, AND YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT AS LONG AS YOU DO THOSE THREE THINGS.

So why is Priscilla top tier again?

Good job answering your own question. Comparing Priscilla's durability to Isadora's and acting like that means Priscilla shouldn't be Top? What the fuck kind of argument is that? Stop trying to sandbag Priscilla.

[frat_tastic]

Also, because I missed it.

Karel will also be getting supports if used (C Geitz, maybe C Lucius or a C/B Guy depending on if you give him Matthew).

Karel is better in combat than Isadora when they're both available, plus I doubt Isadora is raping everything but Eubans when she joins (26 ATK with the Silver Sword, 14 AS. Good, but not rape).

[Inui]

No, I didn't miss your point about Isadora and the body ring, I just don't buy it.

She competes MAJORLY against Florina and Fiora (and Farina if you use her, which you've been advocating), Canas would love one (then he only loses 2 AS from Luna and 4 from Nosferatu), Erk wouldn't mind it (only 2 AS loss with Elfire), Serra could use it (eliminates AS loss from her basic tome, only -1 from Shine), Lucius could use it (no AS loss on Shine, only -3 with Divine). Isadora certainly benefits from it, but she's got competition for it, and thus is in no way guaranteed to get one.

There are two of them. If Isadora is in play, not giving her one is kinda silly, since she's pretty much getting a constant +2 AS bonus while those other units don't. Fiora and Florina already have massive Spd stats. Farina sucks until I can counter Funds. Canas has no AS loss from Flux and still doesn't double much with Nosferatu even with it. Lucius has huge AS and doesn't care. Serra only cares if she needs Shine and doesn't double with it, and instances of that aren't common at all. Meanwhile, Isadora has many situations where such an item boosts her performance, like doubling Mercs with a Silver Sword and doubling everything in VoD with axes/lances, not to mention +4 Evd.

I suppose it's not guaranteed, but if she's being fielded, there is a very strong case for her to get one.

I disagree with a lot of what Interceptor says anyway, but whatev.

Good man.

Geitz also would take Karel or Fiora, but he wouldn't say no to Isadora, so fair enough.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Dorcas.

I disagree with the extent Karel gets knocked for making you miss Harken, but that might just be me. Other units have their own costs, and I don't find eiter Harken or the Brave Sword to be gamebreaking enough to warrant a significant blow to Karel.

The amount of awesome Harken and the Brave Sword add to your team vastly exceeds anything Karel can ever do. I don't see how Karel shouldn't be at least slightly penalized for depriving you of Harken. Simply recruiting Karel weakens your team, which is a problem. Harken's base stats are extremely strong. It's entirely possible for him to have the best concrete stats on your team when he joins.

Anyways, I suppose my strongest Isadorable vs Carol/Jaffart argument is that Isadora provides massive rape in her joining chapter, which they can never duplicate, and she's available for use for a much longer time and isn't horrible during that time, and then she has potential to be good due to supports and provides support bonuses for others. None of that can be said for the crappy sword-locked units only broken in the plot of the game.

[Florete]

Anyways, I suppose my strongest Isadorable vs Carol/Jaffart argument is that Isadora provides massive rape in her joining chapter, which they can never duplicate, and she's available for use for a much longer time and isn't horrible during that time, and then she has potential to be good due to supports and provides support bonuses for others. None of that can be said for the crappy sword-locked units only broken in the plot of the game.

You know Isadora is already above them, right?

[frat_tastic]

There are two of them. If Isadora is in play, not giving her one is kinda silly, since she's pretty much getting a constant +2 AS bonus while those other units don't. Fiora and Florina already have massive Spd stats. Farina sucks until I can counter Funds. Canas has no AS loss from Flux and still doesn't double much with Nosferatu even with it. Lucius has huge AS and doesn't care. Serra only cares if she needs Shine and doesn't double with it, and instances of that aren't common at all. Meanwhile, Isadora has many situations where such an item boosts her performance, like doubling Mercs with a Silver Sword and doubling everything in VoD with axes/lances, not to mention +4 Evd.

I suppose it's not guaranteed, but if she's being fielded, there is a very strong case for her to get one.

Fair enough.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Dorcas.

I figured at this point he's probably been dropped, fulfilling his usage as a good early game character, but now with shitty AS.

The amount of awesome Harken and the Brave Sword add to your team vastly exceeds anything Karel can ever do. I don't see how Karel shouldn't be at least slightly penalized for depriving you of Harken. Simply recruiting Karel weakens your team, which is a problem. Harken's base stats are extremely strong. It's entirely possible for him to have the best concrete stats on your team when he joins.

Anyways, I suppose my strongest Isadorable vs Carol/Jaffart argument is that Isadora provides massive rape in her joining chapter, which they can never duplicate, and she's available for use for a much longer time and isn't horrible during that time, and then she has potential to be good due to supports and provides support bonuses for others. None of that can be said for the crappy sword-locked units only broken in the plot of the game.

I think he should be penalized, but slightly is the key word. Not a lot, like he always seems to be.

[Rodykitty]

The Harken argument I find to be a clutch, desperate, and weak argument. Yes, Karel doesn't give us the Brave Sword or Harken, but neither does Isadora. Only Harken can give us himself and the Brave Sword, and he's already miles above Karel on the tier list.

[Inui]

Priscilla is nowhere near as limited as a unit with poor durability whose full usefulness is seeing combat. Even then, I do not believe Priscilla is limited from a player phase standpoint, due to the nature of Magic in general, as well as rescuing tactics.

Lyn sucks. Even if you don't believe it, she is. She's limited in where she can go for the entire time. Serra is actually durable and can thus frontline in some instances and move to more places. I really do see a tier gap between her and Serra. Priscilla rescuing something and having halved Spd is lulzy.

The problem is that you are demanding far too much as far as Isadora's tier position is concerned. No, she is not going to move two tiers up just because she compares to Lucius during a time they both exist. You still haven't thought about the characters she is around other than saying that Karel is bottom tier and Lyn dropping.

She is a tier better than Lyn. That's my point. I'll work on Isadora being a tier above Karel and Jaffar later.

Nobody is saying Isadora is useless, but being cool alone is not reason to rise, especially in a game where the majority of the cast is useful. Calling Karel worse than he actually is, is even less reason for us to listen to your arguments.

Karel is pretty horrible. No use at all in Battle Before Dawn. NONE. Then he can't counter any enemy in Cog of Destiny and has meh durability there due to horrible HP and even worse Evd than Marcus. That's a problem. It's a problem Isadora doesn't face. Horse + 1~2 range.

Good job answering your own question. Comparing Priscilla's durability to Isadora's and acting like that means Priscilla shouldn't be Top? What the fuck kind of argument is that? Stop trying to sandbag Priscilla.

I don't sandbag Priscilla. I gave her maxed turn count heals with Mend and she's 7.5 in Chapter 17x when Canas. That's like...massive favortism and she's still waaaaay behind everyone in level. Any hope of her promoting with even the third Guiding Ring gets flushed down the toilet.

Also, because I missed it.

Karel will also be getting supports if used (C Geitz, maybe C Lucius or a C/B Guy depending on if you give him Matthew).

Lucius has Raven, Priscilla, and Serra and his support with Karel is 0/+1. Not happening.

Geitz has Dorcas, Isadora, Dart, and Fiora, with the former three providing way better bonuses than Karel can and all of them are better than Karel and his support with Karel is 0/+2.

Guy not supporting Matthew is laughable considering how awesome it is for earlygame and then when Matthew promotes. You can take an underleveled Guy/Matthew team into 32x for huge easy EXP. Then Guy has Priscilla. I suppose Guy is the most possible one for Karel.

Karel is better in combat than Isadora when they're both available, plus I doubt Isadora is raping everything but Eubans when she joins (26 ATK with the Silver Sword, 14 AS. Good, but not rape).

Karel is only better like...right after he joins. Battle Before Dawn? Karel can't even see combat. Cog of Destiny? He can't counter, she can, and she has way more Evd by then due to supports. Victory or Death? That's where Isadora is now clearly winning due to finishing her supports.

She really does rape everything when she joins. Crappy magic using enemies + Reavers giving her double WTA on everything else.

I'll just get samples later and prove she dominates her joining chapter and that Karel and Jaffar can NEVER duplicate that and thus never provide a time when they are good.

I figured at this point he's probably been dropped, fulfilling his usage as a good early game character, but now with shitty AS.

Dorcas is actually viable forever due to one-shotting so much and having good supports.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Rodykitty]

She is a tier better than Lyn. That's my point. I'll work on Isadora being a tier above Karel and Jaffar later.

Isadora is not going to rise as much as you want. Karel and Jaffar aren't going to drop like flies either. Even Lyn dropping (she just did) is arguable.

Stop this huge tier gap shifting crap. This is not how tier lists are built.

[Inui]

Isadora is not going to rise as much as you want. Karel and Jaffar aren't going to drop like flies either. Even Lyn dropping (she just did) is arguable.

Stop this huge tier gap shifting crap. This is not how tier lists are built.

If I factually prove it, it happens. You're going to say it's impossible just because you think it is? Same thing is going to happen to Priscilla, especially when I talk to HJ about her.

Reikken, CATS, Solid, and I are all in agreement that Lyn is horrible. I'll do a another direct Lyn vs Isadora comparison if you'd like. She is clearly a tier better than Lyn.