FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Rodykitty]

A Lyn vs. Isadora argument can say that Isadora is better than Lyn, but it does not say that Isadora is better than Dorcas, Geitz, Legault, Fiora, Canas, Dart, Hawkeye, Heath, Athos, or Vaida.

Wanting Isadora to jump over many characters without argument is ridiculous.

And wanting Karel and Jaffar to jump below a similar number of characters without argument is just as ridiculous.

[Colonel M]

Please tell me how and when Serra is actually "durable?"

At 20/1 she has 30 HP | 7 Def, which is marginally about the same as Isadora. I don't think I need to re-express how being 4RKOed is NOT COOL.

And once again, the major question was "how viable these supports are" as in "can you actually get them at a reasonable time without impending your Turn Count expected to S Rank HHM? Remember all those "0s" that blatantly appear in the ranks many times, which means that you have to shave off many turns to actually get your 32X strategy argument rolling and to get supports at a reasonable pace.

[Inui]

A Lyn vs. Isadora argument can say that Isadora is better than Lyn, but it does not say that Isadora is better than Dorcas, Geitz, Legault, Fiora, Canas, Dart, Hawkeye, Heath, Athos, or Vaida.

Wanting Isadora to jump over many characters without argument is ridiculous.

And wanting Karel and Jaffar to jump below a similar number of characters without argument is just as ridiculous.

-Lower Mid-

Dart

Hawkeye

Heath

Athos

Vaida

-Low-

Lyn

Isadora

Jaffar

Karel

Rath

Bartre

Rebecca

Louise

Wil

Nino

Farina

Isadora does not need to jump above those characters to be a tier better than Lyn. She needs to be amongst them, where she deserves to be. Lyn is way too high. Bartre is massively underrated and also rapes all of those units, but I think Solid wants to address that, so I'll let him.

Please tell me how and when Serra is actually "durable?"

At 20/1 she has 30 HP | 7 Def, which is marginally about the same as Isadora. I don't think I need to re-express how being 4RKOed is NOT COOL.

And once again, the major question was "how viable these supports are" as in "can you actually get them at a reasonable time without impending your Turn Count expected to S Rank HHM? Remember all those "0s" that blatantly appear in the ranks many times, which means that you have to shave off many turns to actually get your 32X strategy argument rolling and to get supports at a reasonable pace.

By the time Serra enters combat, she's had enough time to snag some supports. C Hector is very possible due to the 15 base. That's 5 Evd and 1 Def/Res right there. It starts building right away. Erk and Serra build slowly, but it also starts extremely early. It being a C when Serra promotes or somewhat after is entirely reasonable. Oswin is a 10/+1, so a C there is reasonable. We're talking about ~10 chapters here. Serra can score C's with units that want her bonuses since her affinity is really good. All of it gives her Def/Res and Evd, which is nice, and she starts getting it when she needs it, which is after she promotes. She stomps Priscilla in durability. Hell, everyone does, so lol @ Priscilla.

[Rodykitty]

I personally believe Lyn is as Low as she should be, since she typically co-exists with great units.

Just stop using vague comparisons to Upper Mid/High/Top tier characters as your only justification for a character to rise.

[frat_tastic]

Personally I think Lyn is too low (I feel she should be in lower mid), but whatev. If Lyn is so horrible however, would this affect Geitz's placement at all? If using Lyn is detrimental to your team (which a spot in low tier would suggest), then getting Geitz is deliberately making your team worse by making you use a sub-par unit. Thoughts?

[Narga_Rocks]

Just stop using vague comparisons to Upper Mid/High/Top tier characters as your only justification for a character to rise.

Now why would he want to compare against the characters surrounding the unit he wants to raise/drop? The way he does it now is like creating a line graph but messing with the axes to make the graph look like it's saying something it isn't. Why would he want to mess with something that has likely worked for him in the past?

(edit: like, during his two years tennis experience)

Edited February 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Personally I think Lyn is too low (I feel she should be in lower mid), but whatev. If Lyn is so horrible however, would this affect Geitz's placement at all? If using Lyn is detrimental to your team (which a spot in low tier would suggest), then getting Geitz is deliberately making your team worse by making you use a sub-par unit. Thoughts?

I personally think getting Geitz is more of a bonus than a goal. Linus's FFO >> Lloyd's.

[frat_tastic]

Well, should Lyn be given any credit (along with Hector or Eliwood I suppose also) for getting you Linus's FFO? It's going to be REAL hard to do it without using her fairly regularly.

[Florete]

Well, should Lyn be given any credit (along with Hector or Eliwood I suppose also) for getting you Linus's FFO? It's going to be REAL hard to do it without using her fairly regularly.

She should. How and if it's being applied I know not.

EDIT: Credit might not be the right term, but she shouldn't be getting negative utility at all.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Inui]

Wtf? If I can prove Isadora has a point in time when she's good, something Karel and Jaffar do not have, then I don't need direct comparisons to them. She needs a single positive contribution to be above their fail.

Also:

Isadora: 13 Str/12 Skl/16 Spd

15/0 Kent: 11.6 Str/13 Skl/13.3 Spd

15/0 Sain: 16.4 Str/8.9 Skl/11.6 Spd

15/0 Lowen: 10.9 Str/8.9 Skl/10.9 Spd

Isadora has a period of time like that. She is clearly beating the "best" Cavaliers in offense. If she's not raping her joining chapter, then those guys are sucking huge balls in it, and they are ranked really high.

Isadora can rape her joining chapter and never be used again and still be better than Karel and Jaffar. Isadora made a positive contribution and was better than most of your team for a chapter. Jaffar and Karel are always vastly inferior and never have a period of "hey, I'm good" like Isadora does. 1 positive contribution > 0.

If used forever, Isadora's contributions as a support partner and her class being the best one exceed Jaffar and Karel's minor statistical leads against her.

Lyn? Rofl. At 20/0, Lyn has 2 less Def than Isadora, 3 less Mov, and is locked to swords. Failure. Lyn wasn't even good beyond killing some Cavaliers with the Mani Katti or something before Isadora joined. Nobody wants to support her except Florina, but Florina ditches her all the time to go be a good unit while Lyn is benched or sitting there doing next to nothing. Isadora will build huge leads on her and be like 20/7 when she promotes. Lyn consumes a 20,000 Gold item to promote: NEWSFLASH; THAT IS ALMOST AS MUCH AS FARINA'S COST AS A UNIT EXCEPT FARINA'S COMBAT PROWESS VASTLY OUTPERFORMS LYN'S. Farina costs the same but is much, much, much better when you decide to use her, but Farina is penalized for the cost and Lyn isn't? Bullshit.

Promoting Lyn first = promoting Eliwood later. Either she shafts Eliwood to not suck or she just continues to suck even more. Neither option is really better. Let's have her promote first. After a big period of time of Isadora destroying Lyn, Lyn finally promotes, at the expense of Eliwood.

20/7 Isadora:

HP: 32.5

Str: 14.8

Skl: 14.1

Spd: 19.0

Lck: 12.7

Def: 9.2

Res: 7.5

Con: 6 + 2

Mov: 8

Swords, Lances, Axes

C Marcus/C Geitz: +7 Hit, +7 Crit, +10 Evd, +1 Def/Res, +10 Crit Evd

20/1 Lyn:

HP: 32.3

Str: 13.6

Skl: 20.4

Spd: 20.0

Lck: 15.45

Def: 8.8

Res: 10.7

Con: 6

Mov: 6

Swords, Bows

A Florina: +3 Atk, +7 Hit, +15 Crit, +1 Def/Res, +7 Crit Evd

Just what I wanted. Paying 20,000 Gold and shafting Eliwood sure was worth this unit worse than Isadora.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

Lyn consumes a 50,000 Gold item to promote: NEWSFLASH; THAT IS IDENTICAL TO FARINA'S COST AS A UNIT EXCEPT FARINA'S COMBAT PROWESS VASTLY OUTPERFORMS LYN'S.

What the fuck? Do more research.

Heaven Seal 1

20000

EDIT: Looks like you caught it first.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Inui]

I fixed it before you posted. Check timestamps. ;)

Edit: lol

Edit 2: How about addressing the point? Farina costs about the same as Lyn, but vastly outperforms her as a unit. Why isn't Lyn penalized for her big cost when she's only providing fail, but you people put Farina below units she's way better than due to her cost?

Edit 3: In fact, plenty of my points just get 100% ignored. Like Isadora actually having a positive contribution vs Jaffar and Karel's next to nothing, Priscilla having absolute bottom tier durability limiting her mobility and offense and her promotional situation being so horrible she's lucky to ever touch 20/10, and Isadora clearly thrashing Lyn by about a tier.

I think I'll add establishing Farina > Lyn to my to-do list with regards to this lol list.

Edit 4: My to-do list:

-Isadora needs to shoot up a tier.

-Karel probably needs to drop a tier.

-Jaffar probably needs to drop a tier.

-Lyn is fucking horrible.

-Rebecca needs to be above Rath.

-There is no tier gap between Dorcas and Bartre and Bartre rapes Lyn.

-Farina > Lyn.

-Lyn is rly bad, Isadora is a tier better than her.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Narga_Rocks]

So, you want Isadora to move up by comparing her to:

two units that she already beats and one unit that is only one slot above her. And you want her to move how high? And Lyn/Karel/Jaffar to go how low? Sorry, at best your comparisons could maybe see Isadora jump to bottom of lower mid and Lyn/Karel/Jaffar to go nowhere. Know why? That's all you could possibly show from this. You want Isadora to jump higher? Compare her to what is in the way. You want LKJ to go lower? Compare them to what is beneath them. Comparing two units already beneath unit A to unit A in order to make unit A rise? Pointless much?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Inui]

So, you want Isadora to move up by comparing her to:

two units that she already beats and one unit that is only one slot above her. And you want her to move how high? And Lyn/Karel/Jaffar to go how low? Sorry, at best your comparisons could maybe see Isadora jump to bottom of lower mid and Lyn/Karel/Jaffar to go nowhere. Know why? That's all you could possibly show from this. You want Isadora to jump higher? Compare her to what is in the way. You want LKJ to go lower? Compare them to what is beneath them. Comparing two units already beneath unit A to unit A? Pointless much?

Why don't you get it? Establishing a tier gap between Lyn and Isadora (I just did) is all I need to do. That is the same as establishing her being equal to the units in the tier above low tier. Unless you think Isadora somehow deserves her own tier in between that?

I aim big. When Marcus was bottom of high tier, I shot right for the top of high tier, proved Marcus was better, and thus proved Marcus was also better than everything else in between. I'm not going to waste my time comparing Isadora to everything. I'll pick a unit above her and attack that one unit and skip a bunch. It's simple.

Isadora, Bartre, and Rebecca need to be out of that tier. They're all about as good as Hawkeye and Vaida. In fact, Bartre is quite possibly better than or equal to Hawkeye, and that's where I'll attack for Bartre's placement. As for Isadora, her being in the bottom of the tier above where she is now is entirely acceptable to me. As for Rebecca, her being an Archer doesn't negate the huge leads she has on failure like Carol/Jaffart.

Edit:

FE 7 tier list stuff to prove:

-Isadora needs to shoot up a tier.

-Karel down.

-Jaffar down.

-Lyn is fucking horrible.

-Rebecca up a tier; will compare to anything in the tier above her and possibly show a win.

-There is no tier gap between Dorcas and Bartre and Bartre rapes Lyn; will compare Bartre and Hawkeye.

-Farina > Lyn.

-Canas is disgustingly low.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Colonel M]

Isadora > Lyn. ...Not that I totally agree with the logic.

Also I'm considering to lower Dart. He's just a CEXP padding unit at best. He shouldn't be a tier over Lyn just for that.

-Farina > Lyn.

Dream harder.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

Dream harder.

Farina's cost: 30,000 Gold

Lyn's cost: 20,000 Gold

If you're going to SEVERELY penalize Farina for this, then penalize Lyn too, otherwise it's a bullshit double standard to consider a 10,000 Gold difference that much. Might as well move every unpromoted unit down.

Farina is vastly superior to her in combat and actually becomes really good for stuff like BBD, NoF, CoD, and VoD, while Lyn is always bad.

[Life]

-Isadora needs to shoot up a tier. Half a tier at most. Hawkeye's better than her with actual solid bases, mountain and waterwalk and 15 innate crit. Not to mention a proper Con amount, something that even a Body Ring can't do for Isa.

-Karel down. No. If you're telling me that Rath is better than him, then you're absolutely nuts.

-Jaffar down. No. Same as Karel. In fact, you're spitting on Jaffar too much.

-Lyn is fucking horrible. Over exaggeration. She's not great in HHM but she's nowhere near "fucking horrible". Free Killing Edge/Armourslayer/Longsword in a single weapon and the ability to double almost everything + rather decent dodge is much better than horrible.

-Rebecca up a tier; will compare to anything in the tier above her and possibly show a win. Really. No 1 range and chip damage is better than something like... 15 inate crit or Silencer? And she's guaranteed to not promote so the entire argument is about Exp.

-There is no tier gap between Dorcas and Bartre and Bartre rapes Lyn; will compare Bartre and Hawkeye. Bartre doesn't rape Lyn at combat. Bartre gets licked by a ton of enemies in the earlygame while Lyn doesn't if you actually train her or give her the LHM Angelic Coat.

-Farina > Lyn. And pigs will come out of my ass and fly me into space.

-Canas is disgustingly low. First thing that you've said today that I haven't considered making a terrible joke about.

My opinions are bolded. No use in sugarcoating anything, eh?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Rodykitty]

Wtf? If I can prove Isadora has a point in time when she's good, something Karel and Jaffar do not have, then I don't need direct comparisons to them. She needs a single positive contribution to be above their fail.

Nobody is saying that Isadora doesn't have a time where she's good, but a lot of the characters above her have times when they are good, so that is moot.

The major problem is that you're saying that Karel and Jaffar are useless, which is quite wrong. Mekkah already proved that Karel can be useful. Jaffar has reasonable offense and durability upon base, which I would say alone makes him much better than either Archer.

Edited February 17, 2010 by FE3 Player

[Inui]

Time for some sexy hot Rath > Karel/Jaffar action soon! I'll add that to my list!

I don't think being slaughtered by Isadora can make a unit anything but horrible. If you people are going to cry and cry about Farina costing a lot of money, then why isn't Lyn receiving a penalty for costing almost as much but providing much worse combat?

Rebecca is severely underrated. She's got Lowen/Dart supports and broken player phase offense and exists waaaay longer than Karel/Jaffar. I think proving Rebecca >>> Jaffar/Karel is going to be laughably easy when I sit down to do it and you're all going to feel really silly.

Bartre being doubled by an extremely rare 7 AS Brigand doesn't make him automatically bad. That's not as bad as needing 20,000 Gold to promote as opposed to 10,000 Gold. Bartre slaughters her statistically; this one is going to be really easy, too.

Man, you guys make me do so much work to prove obvious things. I really hope Solid handles Bartre and Rebecca for me since he mirrored my thoughts on MSN tonight and that HJ gets Canas into the same tier as Erk. That'd mean I only need to work on a few things instead of everything.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Inui

[Colonel M]

Let's see the FEF posse try. While you're at it, pull CATS with that Dancer argument. I actually want to hear something about it because I'm thinking it's overrated (this I'm actually serious about). I do actually question if she's a Top Tier unit after thinking hard about it.

Finally:

If it's me, it's alright. You have every right to say so. Either way, I'm pretty sure you know how I'm feeling with all this "oh look at these crappy comparisons that make no sense".

In a game that is so heavy in the Enemy Phase action, I see no reason why you'd ever insult yourself to using an Archer. Either way, amuse me.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Colonel M

[frat_tastic]

Eliwood for Low Tier, he costs 20K to promote and he shafts Lyn by making her wait to promote. And he's terrible when he joins, with Lyn-esque strength and 4 less AS (in NLoC). He's fucking terrible if he's worse than Lyn.

Edited February 17, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Life]

I have one thing to say on your opinion of Farina > Lyn.

Lyn doesn't ever have to promote. There's no place in the rulebooks saying that she has to promote. You can take her to 20/0 and then not field her again. After that, just keep her out of harm's way in Light (very easy to do). That's 20k you didn't spend because you weren't forced to. And in return, you can abuse Lyn's Mani Katti because it kills Knights and Cavs and is free.

Farina costs money to EXIST. What part of that are you not getting? She's worth 40k in liquid funds just to recruit (which is double Lyn's cost so your above post of Lyn promoting costs almost the same as Farina's recruitment fee is WRONG) and then is an extra 10k to promote because there's no point in recruiting her, giving her 8 levels and then benching the girl.

It doesn't matter how good Farina is. The fact that she's worth 5x someone like Raven or 2.5x Eliwood or Lyn means that other units suffer because Farina joined the group (less promotions, less of the better and more expensive weapons to use, less stat boosters to give out). Lyn is not so bad that she's a negative to the team (something that your ranting about her has yet to prove).

Inui, I'm going to say this once. If it hurts your feelings, too bad. You have to stop ranting about units and start using your brain more. It's ok to approach the tier list calmly. Just because Isadora isn't where you want her to be doesn't give you the right to fly off the handle at other people because they try to justify her position. Your arguments aren't convincing many people (at least not me) when they consist mostly of you ranting about how someone's position is wrongly given and then "proving" so with a couple of choice stats.

tl;dr - Inui, calm the fuck down before you give yourself a heart attack or something.

[Inui]

We won't try. We'll do because we're right. Screw it, I'll stay up all night and do one thing at least.

PLEASE STOP IGNORING MY POINT ABOUT LYN VS FARINA. Why is Farina being SEVERELY punished for costing a lot of money while Lyn seems to be ONLY punished for having shitty combat?

Let's have Lyn eat her 20,000 Gold promotional item and totally shaft Eliwood in the process. Farina will promote right after Chapter 26, so let's head into Pale Flower of Darkness.

20/2 Lyn:

HP: 33.0

Str: 14.0

Skl: 21.0

Spd: 20.6

Lck: 16.0

Def: 9.0

Res: 11.0

Con: 6

Mov: 6

Swords, Bows

A Florina: 3 Atk, 7 Hit, 15 Crit, 1 Def/Res, 7 Crit Evd

20/1 Farina:

HP: 35.0

Str: 16.0

Skl: 16.2

Spd: 17.6

Lck: 13.6

Def: 14.0

Res: 16.4

Con: 6

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords

C Florina/C Fiora: 2 Atk, 2 Hit, 5 Crit, 5 Evd, 1 Def/Res, 7 Crit Evd

Raaaaape. Similar costs, except Farina is better and didn't shaft Eliwood.

If Eliwood promotes first? It's not even a contest. We're talking about a 20/5+ Farina against a 20/1 Lyn and in stuff like NoF and CoD where Farina is amazing.

What is worse? Costing 30,000 Gold and needing a bit of babying that is good for the Experience rank, or always sucking and costing nearly the same and shafting another unit half the time?

[Florete]

Your ability to blow points out of proportion is the best I have ever seen.

[Colonel M]

Maybe you should read Cap'n's post:

Lyn doesn't ever have to promote. There's no place in the rulebooks saying that she has to promote. You can take her to 20/0 and then not field her again. After that, just keep her out of harm's way in Light (very easy to do). That's 20k you didn't spend because you weren't forced to. And in return, you can abuse Lyn's Mani Katti because it kills Knights and Cavs and is free.

Farina costs money to EXIST. What part of that are you not getting? She's worth 40k in liquid funds just to recruit (which is double Lyn's cost so your above post of Lyn promoting costs almost the same as Farina's recruitment fee is WRONG) and then is an extra 10k to promote because there's no point in recruiting her, giving her 8 levels and then benching the girl.

It doesn't matter how good Farina is. The fact that she's worth 5x someone like Raven or 2.5x Eliwood or Lyn means that other units suffer because Farina joined the group (less promotions, less of the better and more expensive weapons to use, less stat boosters to give out). Lyn is not so bad that she's a negative to the team (something that your ranting about her has yet to prove).

Theoretically, Lyn can exist. In ranked, Farina is never going to exist unless you like shooting yourself in the foot.