Qprogue Mafia - Game Over

[MancerNecro]

That implies that I could be scum, as well. This makes no sense, given what's happened in the game so far.I'm not liking BBM's claim. Why not do that thing earlier?

Fine, you should be town. There? Happy?

I dislike his claim too and I think there are too many wind roles already (and a powerful one in the cop too) so I doubt BBM's claim. Would lynch or request a vig on him here.

[eclipse]

. . .and a random nitpick: Fire actually has two claimed roles (Xinnidy and Refa), and Dark has three (again, Refa).

I'd count me, but I'm one of everything, so bleh.

After doing some rereading, a little more iffy on Refa, due to end-of-D2 stuff - I thought I made it pretty clear what my role was (complete with the modifier).

[Prims]

BBM's internet is wonky and he wants me to post this for him:

uhhh because nobody CCed Marth's public tracker claim??? It makes sense for what Marth claimed in-thread to be either Bookie or Forecaster.

Also you're assuming I'm scum and then using that to say I'm trying to get town to vote for a bad element. I'm not wind-aligned; I've said several times that I'm non-elemental. This doesn't mean that the choice of element doesn't affect my role. I couldn't do anything with Wind until certain events had transpired. I can now do something pretty cool with Wind.

One way to describe my role would be a JoaT who doesn't start off with any abilities. Requirements to unlock my wind ability were fulfilled last night. I didn't explicitly CC Marth on D2 because I felt that my role could co-exist with a JoaT, but I was pretty sure it wouldn't co-exist with two, which is why I voted Marth.

[MancerNecro]

eclipse: I consider me and Poly to be one role for darkness since our role is a shared role and we're essentially a half an half each.

So now we have another JoaT-like claim urgh... Why is this game doing this to me and trolling all my scum reads?

##Unvote: BBM for now while I recollect my thiughts.

[charlie_]

I wrote up a PoE list overnight then lost it aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

a gap shows a significant difference

TOWN

SB - obvious

Mancer - was disabled by Marth

eclipse - hard CC of Marth got him lynched+proven by kirsche

Xinnidy - UNLIMITED SCUM DAYVIG WORKS or town

Shin - our second protective role to make up for the element gimmick

Refa - don't think scum would claim vengeful and i think scum!refa would've bussed the fuck out of marth when he was going down

Beli - isn't solid but looks better from marth interactions slightly

BBM/Poly - PoE

##Vote: BBM

This is basically Deathbound 2.0. He pushes Marth hard until it matters Day 1 and then suddenly develops a townread on them then hard pushes Elieson to get him lynched. Marth also ignored BBM completely and never had a read on him, which is weird considering he was pressing Marth for a lot of Day 1.

Poly's interactions are weird because Marth attacks him but he's never high enough in the priority to put him in danger so it feels like distancing.

Don't have time to elaborate anymore, but you guys remember how I said to vote Cleric, right?

##Select: Cleric

It's that time again.

[eclipse]

. . .I think I get what BBM is trying to say. . .and if my suspicions about his role are correct, OMG. Now I've got serious mixed feelings about his alignment. I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Shin]

Uh, Refa, I never really scumread Marth, he was always one of my town reads, gg, I know right? Also, the "I placed a boulder making your vig invincible as long as I'm around" thing makes me wonder why you're voting me.

Looking back at Beli, he's had a light scumread on Marth for most of the game. However, I can see virtually no direct interactions with him early on. There's a vote that lasted three hours before swapping to Eli. This in isolation would look bad, but then there's D2. His Marth vote wasn't scummy, I don't see why he'd contribute to a wagon that was still brewing. It's a surefire way to get your buddy killed.

SB's points on BBM pretty much cover it, I really don't have very much to add to the case. I would like to mention that his opinion of Marth went rather quickly from #2 scumread to null waffles. There's some casual defense of Marth as well. He keeps saying that they could lynch Marth over Eli and his "Tell me why I should vote him and then maybe I will". Actually, looking at it, he defended Marth pretty hard towards the end of D1, getting people to question.

I still can't read Poly for beans, but I've realistically run out of people who might be scum, although scum neighbour strikes me as kinda weird. The only person I could see as possibly be scum is Refa, but again that claim makes no sense. I'd have to come up with some fairly contrived logic to justify anyone else as scum.

Wow, my reads are almost identical to SB's, I might as well wear a jumper and start going baa.

##Vote: BBM

[Zkirsche]

Why kill me :(

[BBM]

#selfmeta it makes me sad that you guys think I would pull the exact same scum strategy pretty much back-to-back. Not really much else for me to say in defence of myself. I can agree that my Marth interactions don't look good. I was also ~slightly townreading Marth at the end of D1, and therefore defended him a little, but I maintain that most of the Marth case after ED1 sucked, and I was really sure Elie was scum at that point.

Also, Prims wanted me to re-quote this so it's in my ISO:

uhhh because nobody CCed Marth's public tracker claim??? It makes sense for what Marth claimed in-thread to be either Bookie or Forecaster.

Also you're assuming I'm scum and then using that to say I'm trying to get town to vote for a bad element. I'm not wind-aligned; I've said several times that I'm non-elemental. This doesn't mean that the choice of element doesn't affect my role. I couldn't do anything with Wind until certain events had transpired. I can now do something pretty cool with Wind.

One way to describe my role would be a JoaT who doesn't start off with any abilities. Requirements to unlock my wind ability were fulfilled last night. I didn't explicitly CC Marth on D2 because I felt that my role could co-exist with a JoaT, but I was pretty sure it wouldn't co-exist with two, which is why I voted Marth.

Anyways I have to interview someone at 9 and then write an article on it by noon so uh, I'll try to read after that.

[BBM]

Okay I was rereading Poly and now I'm majorly confused; he says that he wants Archer because he's Archer, but then said today that he couldn't do anything because Assassin wasn't selected. He does say that he's both Assassin and Archer, but if he needs both elements for his role to work, then after Fighter got picked, why would he even care whether or not Archer was picked? It wouldn't make a difference to him if he needed both. This is probably not indicative of scum but I'm just really confused about his motives.

Ugh, I read both Beli and Poly and I don't really feel as if either are scum. They both had fairly early Marth votes, and although Poly dropped it after the claim I can't see him being scum who popped in-thread D2 pretty much just to bus his buddy. Mehhhhh I guess we'll see as the game goes on; it's possible I was just overthinking Marth's track choice, especially since Poly saying he had a Archer role might have made Marth think that Poly could act.

therefore ##Vote: Shin

his vote just feels like major wagoning to me and it just contributes to the overall feeling of him jumping onto wagons the entire game. Shin has not talked about my alignment prior to this post (the closest thing was saying I was null on D1). Also, he actually defended Marth more than I did, by stating he was town on D1 and defending him, and then chainsaw defending him again on D2 by attacking Beli's Marth vote. Yeah, I know that people can be wrong (I was too) but it just seems really hypocritical for him to talk about me defending Marth when he did it more. I guess he has the point in his favour that he didn't swing from a scumread to a townread on Marth like one could argue I did, but it still feels sleazy.

[BBM]

wait fuck if Shin was scum and townreading his buddy that would be a great justification to perma-guard him

ffffffff

##Unvote

[MancerNecro]

Did you read the thread at all, BBM?

I've been crumbing details about Poly and my role so hard it's not even funny.

We have two different roles activated by two different classes. Assassin activates our half-roles (that's supposed to work together). Archer allows Poly to talk to me in the neighbour quicktopic. Knight allows me to respond to him.

The fact that you are derping on this makes me think that you are deliberately bit reading posts made by players except those with cases that are beneficial to you or whose points you're going to sheep.

Im standing by my earlier ##Vote: BBM because his general play strikes me as being from the past time I played with him and I don't like his play throughout days 1 to 3 (even now).

Xinnidy just shoot your top scum read once you are online.

This is still a thing, Xinnidy.

[MancerNecro]

bit should be not

I blame my phone again.

[Shin]

therefore ##Vote: Shin

his vote just feels like major wagoning to me and it just contributes to the overall feeling of him jumping onto wagons the entire game. Shin has not talked about my alignment prior to this post (the closest thing was saying I was null on D1). Also, he actually defended Marth more than I did, by stating he was town on D1 and defending him, and then chainsaw defending him again on D2 by attacking Beli's Marth vote. Yeah, I know that people can be wrong (I was too) but it just seems really hypocritical for him to talk about me defending Marth when he did it more. I guess he has the point in his favour that he didn't swing from a scumread to a townread on Marth like one could argue I did, but it still feels sleazy.

You say it was a chainsaw defense of Marth, it was more that Beli was basically recycling a vote from D1 - adding only small amounts to a reasonably weak vote. I was admittedly wrong about Marth, but our defenses were different with regards to timing. I'm also not feeling the strength of this case, you seem to excuse me every other point.

In short, you're grasping at straws, bro!

[charlie_]

Levity/SB is scummy to me too. I've elaborated on Levity already. I don't really like SB becauee he seems to just be coasting along with the town's reads and wagons as well as doing random "I might have an idea about the public tracker but I'm not elaborating on it" and "vote Holy, my role is Holy" throughout day 2 that doesn't really contribute much.

This case doesn't actually make sense? I have suspicions that other people have, yes, but have these suspicions actually been scummy? It's not even like I'm solely sheeping people, I had BBM as scum before pretty much anyone else and think Shin is probably town when there are a lot of people still after his lynch. I don't know what the last sentence is trying to say, I encouraged people to vote my element because I want to actually use my damn role, and I thought eclipse was a Loudmouth rather than there being a public tracker (which is probably part of the Forecaster role) and didn't want people to vote in the same elements thinking that they would have the public tracker again.

Ftr the public tracker is probably part of the forecaster role anyway and I think Marth just claimed his real role (minus cleric and assassin maybe) and iirc Bookie was a vig variant on motk once, although I doubt that's the case here?

Also we shouldn't rush the vig so that whoever Xin wants to shoot has a chance to claim this time.

@Refa, I already explained why Shin's role isn't stronger than Rapier's, it's never going to actually block a kill and can't protect a power role right away. I also just noticed that Shin can never be jailed either since activating Rapier would disable the boulder so that points towards Shin being town further and Prims trying to stop a breaking strategy.

Also the stuff about my meta is really sad and I feel like I'm never gonna get towncred for a scumflip again. Tears. I don't see how being on a scum lynch makes me worse though? Also, I bussed in SFMM4 because I was kind of forced to because my buddies were pretty much flailing around and I outright tried to save them all Day 1 (and planned to carry eclipse into lategame if Weapons hadn't got his guilty on her Night 2) so I don't do it for no reason now, lol. I'm pretty sure I know better than anyone how bussing can backfire on you.

@BBM, I don't see how this was the exact same scum strategy as Deathbound, but the general playstyle of objectively good play but nothing that actually makes you look townie stuck out to me. Also, you hardbussed Randa there whereas here you just jumped onboard the wagon when he was already sunk so that defense kind of stinks.

You should also claim your role name, if you're going to claim like that.

[BBM]

Well, the scum strategy of scumreading a buddy and then shifting to a townread on him after ED1. I was comparing Marth to Balcerzak here, not Randa (which you were too, so I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about Randa at all?). Also you're objectively wrong by saying that my play this game is objectively good because I was tunneling on Elie D1. You've said twice now since you subbed in that my play this game is like my play from SMT and I was the paragon of good play on D1/D2, but this isn't really the case at all. There have been a bunch of holes in my play and people have been scumreading me for most of the game

Mancer you haven't played with me for over a year; please don't use meta arguments. Also you guys were super confusing with your role so whatever. But if you explicitly stated that Archer let Poly speak in the QT, I'm again unsure of why Marth targeted Poly.

@Shin- uhhh I was casing you for all of D2 as well so I thought it implicit that the stuff I said with my vote here was not my entire case but just an addition to the stuff I said on D2. I was just looking at the Marth interactions here. But regardless I'm not sure why you wouldn't perma-guard your buddy over targeting some random townie as scum, so MEH.

Anyways I'm having trouble just looking for scum at the moment so time for PoE^TM. Xinny/Eclipse/Mancer are all pretty obviously town. I think Beli's placement on the Marth wagon as well as the fact that Marth was trying to gun for him as a counterwagon over himself also points to Beli being town. I think Refa is town, and Shin's use of his role seems not-scum motivated to me. This leaves Poly/SB as most likely scum? Unfortunately, I've been kind of gut-townreading Poly's apathy as town for most of the game and I don't really remember Poly ever being a hardcore busser in his scumgames. Plus I feel like there have been so many scum neighbour(izers) lately that I feel like Prims would just make a town/town pairing this time. I was also townreading SB a little but icrr why, so I'll need to reread him. But yeah I'm leaning towards voting him because if I can't remember why I was townreading him then my townread there is probably the worst.

If Poly actually isn't scum then maybe my gut townread on Refa is wrong (it doesn't really have a specific reason behind it; more of a holistic sense), or maybe Shin has some kind of restriction preventing him from targeting his buddies; idk.

My vote for Xinvig is probably like SB > Poly/Refa/Shin > Beli right now but I want to reread SB and Via before committing to that. Xinny should probably not shoot right away in any case though.

Eclipse- not sure what you mean by mixed feelings. Do you find my crumb more likely to be scum or town?

Would people prefer me to claim my role fully?

[BBM]

oh yeah shit I totally forgot Refa vengeful stuff. So IMO he's less likely to be scum than Poly/Shin, but still more likely than Beli.

[charlie_]

Well, the scum strategy of scumreading a buddy and then shifting to a townread on him after ED1. I was comparing Marth to Balcerzak here, not Randa (which you were too, so I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about Randa at all?). Also you're objectively wrong by saying that my play this game is objectively good because I was tunneling on Elie D1. You've said twice now since you subbed in that my play this game is like my play from SMT and I was the paragon of good play on D1/D2, but this isn't really the case at all. There have been a bunch of holes in my play and people have been scumreading me for most of the game

I wouldn't call townreading your buddy a strategy when they get close to the lynch, and Bal was never under any severe amount of pressure either for this to be relevant. And your play has still been similar to SMT where you're done nothing that's objectively bad (aside from having bad interactions with scum) but nothing there actually makes me think that you're townie, which is where the parallel comes from.

I'm pretty sure you would be able to get an actual case on me if I was scum by now, so.

[charlie_]

I'm tempted to call for a massclaim here because I don't think scum actually have fakes at this point, considering Marth's mishap with eclipse, and the only people who have really kept their roles hidden at this point are me and Beli. Thoughts?

[BBM]

I'm probably going to have to end up fullclaiming at some point today anyways, so I have no real objections if you and Beli don't. I'm willing to go first in the popcorn claiming if that's the case.

Me having done nothing scummy (other than the interactions) is not actually a scummy thing, I hope you realize. It's null. If you discount the interactions, your case is basically WOW YOU'RE PLAYING WELL YOU MUST BE SCUM. I'm not super-town in all my town games either. A bunch of people thought I was scum on D1 in SFMM4, and ironically the reason I wasn't lynched there and became obvtown instead was my interactions with flipped scum. The interactions in this game are a separate thing and you could vote for me based on that, but I think that the comparison of my play to SMT is flawed. I guess you're right in that my comparisons are flawed too, but I was really only making them in the first place because you started doing it first so idk. Also rereading you a bit made me realize that you were also pushing me for my Elie vote seeming contrived so then doesn't that go against my play just being very neutral?

I don't really have a case on you as of the moment, no.

I did reread you a little and realized that you were basically voting Marth for most of the day, which is pretty frustrating as far as being able to call you scum goes. At this point I've bumped you down to the same level as Poly and Shin but right now I feel like the more I read people the more I find reasons for them being town rather than scum, and I'm just bumping people down rather than up.

Honestly it feels like someone must have hard-bussed Marf at this stage unless the remaining scum are Shin/Refa, which doesn't really make sense at all.

I'm also very tired so I might take a nap. Or maybe play League.

[BBM]

Actually, SB, if I were scum, who do you think my buddy would be? You seem to be most suspicious of Shin after me, but Shin and I don't really make sense as buddies.

[charlie_]

Considering I'm hard defending Shin at the moment I have no idea where you got that idea from?

I'm pretty sure I implied I think Poly is plausible as your buddy.

[BBM]

oh I was looking at your tier list from when you subbed in

I'M TIRED OKAY

you really think I'd hard-defend both my buddies lol

[charlie_]

Me having done nothing scummy (other than the interactions) is not actually a scummy thing, I hope you realize. It's null. If you discount the interactions, your case is basically WOW YOU'RE PLAYING WELL YOU MUST BE SCUM. I'm not super-town in all my town games either. A bunch of people thought I was scum on D1 in SFMM4, and ironically the reason I wasn't lynched there and became obvtown instead was my interactions with flipped scum. The interactions in this game are a separate thing and you could vote for me based on that, but I think that the comparison of my play to SMT is flawed. I guess you're right in that my comparisons are flawed too, but I was really only making them in the first place because you started doing it first so idk. Also rereading you a bit made me realize that you were also pushing me for my Elie vote seeming contrived so then doesn't that go against my play just being very neutral?

I didn't mean to imply that not doing anything scummy was scummy, I'm saying that you're capable of doing this as scum and the interactions point towards this. The Eli tunnel is related to Marth because well, you dropped him to tunnel Eli and he got lynched.

[BBM]

well, not hard-defend, but you know what I mean