FE9 Tier list v3

[aku chi]

Why should we give Haar and Geoffrey an equal amount of BEXP? Does this look like Stalinist Russia to you? Geoffrey levels up twice as fast as Haar and has triple the speed growth. It's questionable if the benefits from bexping Haar outweigh the costs - it isn't questionable with Geoffrey.

For convenience. If Haar isn't worth the Bexp, than that implies that another unit can make better use of the Bexp, which strengthens, as opposed to weakens, the comparison in favor of Haar. Haar doesn't need the Bexp to be useful. If Geoffrey does, than that is a cost that the Geoffrey-less team doesn't have to bear.

In mathematical terms, in case my prose isn't clear:

H - Haar

G - Geoffrey

{T} - The rest of the team sans Haar and Geoffrey

GBexp - The optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey

{R} - The rest of the resources sans GBexp

If:

(H + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) > (G + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) and

(H) + ({T} + {R} + GBexp) > (H + GBexp) + ({T} + {R})

Then:

(H) + ({T} + {R} + GBexp) > (G + GBexp) + ({T} + {R})

Edited May 15, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

For convenience. If Haar isn't worth the Bexp, than that implies that another unit can make better use of the Bexp, which strengthens, as opposed to weakens, the comparison in favor of Haar. Haar doesn't need the Bexp to be useful. If Geoffrey does, than that is a cost that the Geoffrey-less team doesn't have to bear.

In mathematical terms, in case my prose isn't clear:

H - Haar

G - Geoffrey

{T} - The rest of the team sans Haar and Geoffrey

GBexp - The optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey

{R} - The rest of the resources sans GBexp

If:

(H + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) > (G + GBexp) + ({T} + {R}) and

(H) + ({T} + {R} + GBexp) > (H + GBexp) + ({T} + {R})

Then:

(H) + ({T} + {R} + GBexp) > (G + GBexp) + ({T} + {R})

I understand exactly what you mean. If it's the case that giving Haar BEXP isn't a good use of it and Geoffrey is, then obviously Geoffrey needs to still deal with the cost of taking BEXP.

[-Cynthia-]

Agreed with comparison not making much sense. And if we're talking costs here, Haar needing a Brave is more costly than Geoffrey's discounted BEXP. There are a lot of units who go from 2RKOing to ORKOing on several enemy types by equipping the Brave Axe/Lance. Granted, Haar gets more of a boost than most, but it's still a disadvantage. Brave Axe/Lance also has less Mt than a Silver Lance (more than Haar's small Str lead) and a forged Silver pushes Geoffrey's Atk even further above Haar's.

@Kevin Haar and Geoffrey are in the same tier now

Edited May 16, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

Agreed with comparison not making much sense.

Who are you agreeing with, and which comparison? I've now compared Haar vs. Geoffrey with little/no Bexp (in detail) and Haar vs. Geoffrey with a moderate amount of Bexp (briefly). If Haar is better in both comparisons, Haar is better (assuming one of those comparisons provides Geoffrey with his optimal amount of Bexp). The mathematical form of this conclusion can be found in my previous post.

But please, I encourage anyone interested to make a sensible comparison favoring Geoffrey.

And if we're talking costs here, Haar needing a Brave is more costly than Geoffrey's discounted BEXP. There are a lot of units who go from 2RKOing to ORKOing on several enemy types by equipping the Brave Axe/Lance. Granted, Haar gets more of a boost than most, but it's still a disadvantage. Brave Axe/Lance also has less Mt than a Silver Lance (more than Haar's small Str lead) and a forged Silver pushes Geoffrey's Atk even further above Haar's.

Haar doesn't need a Brave weapon to double half of the enemies in Chapters 24-27. He might need an Arms Scroll and Silver Forge to 2HKO the toughest Generals and Wyvern Lords, but Geoffrey can't 2HKO them at all. 20/15 Geoffrey with a Silver Lance forge has the same Attack as 20/16 Haar with a Steel Axe forge, for instance. And Haar always leads 1-2 range attack: Geoffrey has to be 20/19 with a Javelin forge to match base Haar's Hand Axe forge attack. Haar is still valuable in Chapters 25 and 28 if you give him nothing, because he is a durable flier that can rescue-drop, 2RKO everything, and 1RKO a bunch. But give him a Brave weapon (which he makes great use of), and an Arms Scroll and Silver Forge, and he can ORKO the majority of enemies in Chapters 24-27. At best, when we give Geoffrey a moderate amount of resources, he can ORKO about half of the enemies in Chapters 26 and 27. How is Geoffrey possibly more useful than Haar?

[-Cynthia-]

Who are you agreeing with, and which comparison? I've now compared Haar vs. Geoffrey with little/no Bexp (in detail) and Haar vs. Geoffrey with a moderate amount of Bexp (briefly). If Haar is better in both comparisons, Haar is better (assuming one of those comparisons provides Geoffrey with his optimal amount of Bexp). The mathematical form of this conclusion can be found in my previous post.

But please, I encourage anyone interested to make a sensible comparison favoring Geoffrey.

Not giving Geoffrey any BEXP is just a stupid way to play. And your second comparison seems to indicate that giving Geoffrey BEXP is a significant resource, when in reality Paragon makes the cost rather trivial.

Haar doesn't need a Brave weapon to double half of the enemies in Chapters 24-27. He might need an Arms Scroll and Silver Forge to 2HKO the toughest Generals and Wyvern Lords, but Geoffrey can't 2HKO them at all.

This implies that Haar actually ORKOs these enemies with a Silver Lance forge. A 20/15 Haar only has 3 more Atk than a 20/15 Geoffrey (it is actually more difficult to get Haar to 20/15, he has more chapters but it costs twice as much). 43 Atk with a Silver forge still misses the ORKO on several Generals/Wyvern Lords.

20/15 Geoffrey with a Silver Lance forge has the same Attack as 20/16 Haar with a Steel Axe forge, for instance.

Well for one I question Haar ever having more levels than the guy with Paragon. Secondly, Geoffrey can double a number of enemy types with this same Atk and can ORKO them, Haar can't, he has to use a Brave Axe/Lance which gives him less Atk and can be used by many other characters to obtain ORKOs.

And Haar always leads 1-2 range attack: Geoffrey has to be 20/19 with a Javelin forge to match base Haar's Hand Axe forge attack.

But Geoffrey doubles like 50% more of the map with the Javelin forge, which makes for a big offensive difference.

Haar is still valuable in Chapters 25 and 28 if you give him nothing, because he is a durable flier that can rescue-drop, 2RKO everything, and 1RKO a bunch. But give him a Brave weapon (which he makes great use of), and an Arms Scroll and Silver Forge, and he can ORKO the majority of enemies in Chapters 24-27. At best, when we give Geoffrey a moderate amount of resources, he can ORKO about half of the enemies in Chapters 26 and 27. How is Geoffrey possibly more useful than Haar?

Because taking half of the amount Haar takes to level up means we can put more BEXP into him and don't need to rely on Braves?

@ORKOing Not sure this is actually true, depending upon what you mean by "about half". Running the calcs myself, it seems to be signficantly over half, assuming we're being smart about weaponry (like using a Laguz Lance on laguz).

The main point is though, that Haar's offense is worse. 33 Atk (20/15 Haar+Brave Axe) misses the ORKO all the Paladins Geoffrey doubles and ORKOs that Haar misses. Haar also can't double any types of laguz (or get them with Braves), most of which Geoffrey ORKOs ( misses dragons obviously, though I'm not sure anyone ORKOs them).

Edited May 16, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

Not giving Geoffrey any BEXP is just a stupid way to play. And your second comparison seems to indicate that giving Geoffrey BEXP is a significant resource, when in reality Paragon makes the cost rather trivial.

My second comparison involved giving both the same amount of Bexp. I never made a judgement about its cost.

This implies that Haar actually ORKOs these enemies with a Silver Lance forge. A 20/15 Haar only has 3 more Atk than a 20/15 Geoffrey (it is actually more difficult to get Haar to 20/15, he has more chapters but it costs twice as much). 43 Atk with a Silver forge still misses the ORKO on several Generals/Wyvern Lords.

How disingenuous. Haar has 45 Atk with a Silver Axe forge (why would we give him a more costly lance forge?) at level 16 (yay for not rounding .4 down), which 2HKOs every non-boss General and Wyvern Lord before Endgame. And 43 Atk (which Haar has at level 13) misses 2HKOing ~2 Generals in all of Chapters 26&27.

Well for one I question Haar ever having more levels than the guy with Paragon. Secondly, Geoffrey can double a number of enemy types with this same Atk and can ORKO them, Haar can't, he has to use a Brave Axe/Lance which gives him less Atk and can be used by many other characters to obtain ORKOs.

Haar has free reinforcement Cexp in Chapter 23, all of Chapter 24, and actual movement to reach enemies in Chapter 25. Haar can easily be level 14 at Chapter 26 without any Bexp. Geoffrey will be lucky to be level 12 (if we deploy him at all in Chapter 25). If we give both ~500 Bexp, Haar will reach level 16 and Geoffrey will be between levels 15 and 16. I mostly selected those levels because they feature round numbers for a Strength comparison, but they're actually realistic upon consideration. That seemed like the optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey, because it lets him double all of the Paladins (assuming Knight Ward use).

But Geoffrey doubles like 50% more of the map with the Javelin forge, which makes for a big offensive difference.

Does it? It only really matters if Geoffrey can ORKO enemies at range that Haar cannot. Both can ORKO Sages at range. But Geoffrey struggles to 2HKO even Snipers with a Javelin forge. Warriors, Halberdiers, and Paladins are all out of reach. And while Haar can't double the Paladins and Snipers, he can ORKO some of the Warriors and Halberdiers at range. Haar wins 1-2 range offense. Geoffrey can win 2-range offense due to bows if we give him an Arms Scroll for the Brave Bow (and regardless vs. fliers), but bows are only practical if we have someone to trade out weapons for him.

(Oh, and I'd like you to find a map where Geoffrey is doubling 50% more enemies than Haar. You are vastly overestimating the importance of Geoffrey's Speed advantage.)

Because taking half of the amount Haar takes to level up means we can put more BEXP into him and don't need to rely on Braves?

Haar doesn't need Brave weapons to be more useful in chapters 24, 25 and 28 than Geoffrey ever is.

@ORKOing Not sure this is actually true, depending upon what you mean by "about half". Running the calcs myself, it seems to be signficantly over half, assuming we're being smart about weaponry (like using a Laguz Lance on laguz).

The main point is though, that Haar's offense is worse. 33 Atk (20/15 Haar+Brave Axe) misses the ORKO all the Paladins Geoffrey doubles and ORKOs that Haar misses. Haar also can't double any types of laguz (or get them with Braves), most of which Geoffrey ORKOs ( misses dragons obviously, though I'm not sure anyone ORKOs them).

Paladins are only relevant in Chapter 26. That is the one chapter where Geoffrey might have an advantage over Haar (though Haar is still helpful). They're pretty even in Chapter 27, where Geoffrey can double some laguz and Snipers but Haar can ORKO all of the Generals. Geoffrey's slightly better offense in Chapter 28 can't overcome his inability to make a crucial rescue-drop over the trees like Haar can. Endgame is largely irrelevant, but their offense is probably comparable here because Geoffrey misses 2HKOs and Haar misses a lot of doubles. And then there's Chapter 24 where Haar is helpful and Chapter 25 where Haar is a huge help. So how is Geoffrey more useful?

[Shadow Mir]

How disingenuous. Haar has 45 Atk with a Silver Axe forge (why would we give him a more costly lance forge?) at level 16 (yay for not rounding .4 down), which 2HKOs every non-boss General and Wyvern Lord before Endgame. And 43 Atk (which Haar has at level 13) misses 2HKOing ~2 Generals in all of Chapters 26&27.

Too bad Haar starts at B rank.

[aku chi]

Too bad Haar starts at B rank.

It certainly is unfortunate, but an Arms Scroll is not the highest demand resource. And even without an Arms Scroll, Haar can probably reach A Axes by Chapter 27. Haar can also 2HKO Generals with the Hammer (albeit with imperfect accuracy). Additionally, Haar can 4HKOs all Generals and Wyvern Lords with a Brave Weapon, so that's an inefficient option (Geoffrey cannot say the same, BTW). The fact remains, Geoffrey cannot ORKO most Generals and needs to use bows to ORKO Wyvern Lords. Haar can ORKO them all with a few resources.

[Shadow Mir]

It certainly is unfortunate, but an Arms Scroll is not the highest demand resource. And even without an Arms Scroll, Haar can probably reach A Axes by Chapter 27. Haar can also 2HKO Generals with the Hammer (albeit with imperfect accuracy). Additionally, Haar can 4HKOs all Generals and Wyvern Lords with a Brave Weapon, so that's an inefficient option (Geoffrey cannot say the same, BTW). The fact remains, Geoffrey cannot ORKO most Generals and needs to use bows to ORKO Wyvern Lords. Haar can ORKO them all with a few resources.

That would be saying something... that is, if it weren't for the fact that you don't even see that many Generals or Wyvern Lords.

[-Cynthia-]

My second comparison involved giving both the same amount of Bexp. I never made a judgement about its cost.

Not sure all characters use BEXP equally here. If we can get twice the levelups of out Geoffrey with the same amount of BEXP that we can giving levels to Haar, Geoffrey seems like a better candidate. It's similar to how lower leveled characters often are given more Exp than higher leveled characters.

How disingenuous. Haar has 45 Atk with a Silver Axe forge (why would we give him a more costly lance forge?) at level 16 (yay for not rounding .4 down), which 2HKOs every non-boss General and Wyvern Lord before Endgame. And 43 Atk (which Haar has at level 13) misses 2HKOing ~2 Generals in all of Chapters 26&27.

You keep assuming Arms Scrolls on Haar, while Mist might want them for the SS, Sages might want them for siege tomes etc. Haar's a bit at the bottom of the list here because he shows up later than these characters. And since when do we round numbers lower than .5 up?

Haar has free reinforcement Cexp in Chapter 23, all of Chapter 24, and actual movement to reach enemies in Chapter 25. Haar can easily be level 14 at Chapter 26 without any Bexp. Geoffrey will be lucky to be level 12 (if we deploy him at all in Chapter 25). If we give both ~500 Bexp, Haar will reach level 16 and Geoffrey will be between levels 15 and 16. I mostly selected those levels because they feature round numbers for a Strength comparison, but they're actually realistic upon consideration. That seemed like the optimal amount of Bexp for Geoffrey, because it lets him double all of the Paladins (assuming Knight Ward use).

This reinforcement BEXP isn't that much. Most of these enemies are level 20, Haar only gets like 9 Exp for killing them. Considering how quickly we complete chapters and how we have other fliers to kill enemies, Haar's CEXP gains seem inflated.

Does it? It only really matters if Geoffrey can ORKO enemies at range that Haar cannot. Both can ORKO Sages at range. But Geoffrey struggles to 2HKO even Snipers with a Javelin forge. Warriors, Halberdiers, and Paladins are all out of reach. And while Haar can't double the Paladins and Snipers, he can ORKO some of the Warriors and Halberdiers at range. Haar wins 1-2 range offense.

Even when not ORKOing, Geoffrey leaves enemies at a lower HP than Haar does while doubling (say dragons we don't want to take a counter from). Geoffrey can also use the Flame Lance at 1-2 range to ORKO laguz without taking counters while Haar...just can't ORKO laguz period.

Geoffrey can win 2-range offense due to bows if we give him an Arms Scroll for the Brave Bow (and regardless vs. fliers), but bows are only practical if we have someone to trade out weapons for him.

Which isn't a huge deal, but yeah Geoffrey can ORKO any Wyvern Lord he wants if he feels like it.

(Oh, and I'd like you to find a map where Geoffrey is doubling 50% more enemies than Haar. You are vastly overestimating the importance of Geoffrey's Speed advantage.)

C28. Haar only doubles the Bishops and some of the Sages so like 4/50, Geoffrey can probably double all the enemies here (20/18 with all KW levelups).

It's less than that on other chapters, though ~20/50 on C26 is almost half as well.

Haar doesn't need Brave weapons to be more useful in chapters 24, 25 and 28 than Geoffrey ever is.

Paladins are only relevant in Chapter 26. That is the one chapter where Geoffrey might have an advantage over Haar (though Haar is still helpful). They're pretty even in Chapter 27, where Geoffrey can double some laguz and Snipers but Haar can ORKO all of the Generals. Geoffrey's slightly better offense in Chapter 28 can't overcome his inability to make a crucial rescue-drop over the trees like Haar can. Endgame is largely irrelevant, but their offense is probably comparable here because Geoffrey misses 2HKOs and Haar misses a lot of doubles. And then there's Chapter 24 where Haar is helpful and Chapter 25 where Haar is a huge help. So how is Geoffrey more useful?

I think you're overall overrating Haar's flight utility. Its value is a lot higher when you're the only flier or something, but we already have Marcia, Jill, and Tanith (well and Janaff/Ulki/Elincia but eh).

[Shadow Mir]

Paladins are only relevant in Chapter 26. That is the one chapter where Geoffrey might have an advantage over Haar (though Haar is still helpful). They're pretty even in Chapter 27, where Geoffrey can double some laguz and Snipers but Haar can ORKO all of the Generals. Geoffrey's slightly better offense in Chapter 28 can't overcome his inability to make a crucial rescue-drop over the trees like Haar can. Endgame is largely irrelevant, but their offense is probably comparable here because Geoffrey misses 2HKOs and Haar misses a lot of doubles. And then there's Chapter 24 where Haar is helpful and Chapter 25 where Haar is a huge help. So how is Geoffrey more useful?

I say again, Haar gets two-shotted by chapter 24's Iron Ballistae, and there are 3 of those on the map. Sure, he can use the FG, but that means consigning one of the others to rely on dodging (and those things are pretty damn accurate).

[Life]

You keep assuming Arms Scrolls on Haar, while Mist might want them for the SS, Sages might want them for siege tomes etc. Haar's a bit at the bottom of the list here because he shows up later than these characters. And since when do we round numbers lower than .5 up?

Please repeat after me.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist does not deserve sinking both Arms Scrolls into her for the Sonic Sword.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Your time in detention is now done. Remember to show up tomorrow.

The point here is that Mist is not designed to be a combat unit, even with the Sonic Sword in her hands. Her primary usage is healing, Sonic Sword goodness just means that she doesn't suck at dealing damage. But she's never going to be good at dealing damage either, which means that I seriously doubt that we should sink both Arms Scrolls into her and staple the SS into her hand.

As for the sages, why bother using an Arms Scroll to get Soren/Ilyana/Tormod up to B whatever when Calill shows up with B everything? How many siege tome users do we honestly need in a single chapter? 3?

Another point to consider for the sages is the possibility that Soren and Ilyana may just reach B Wind/Thunder by the time Bolting and Blizzard show up. Both need to attack 90 times in order to knock their rank up to B (using Wind or Thunder, El makes it easier). Considering that Soren usually goes through his Wind tome completely by the end of Chapter 8, he's only needs 50 more attacks to get to B Wind. 25 if we toss him the Chapter 11 Elwind (because Ilyana sure as fuck can't use that). That's less than 2 tomes (Elwind will have 5 uses left) and he'll hit B Wind very quickly without needing an Arms Scroll. Ilyana is nicer to us since she starts out with Elthunder off the bat. She loses her ability to double anything (even though it's not like she was doubling with a -2 AS penalty on Thunder) but going through that Elthunder tome brings her 2/3 of the way to B Thunder. Why are we sinking Arms Scrolls into these guys again?

Now that we've freed the Arms Scrolls from the grasps of the sages and Mist, why don't we put them into characters who actually get some use out of them? Geoffrey starts with C Bows so giving him one gives him access to the Brave Bow. We could argue that Astrid is probably the better choice but she's got a better chance of getting screwed along the way which means that Geoffrey is essentially an RNG proof 9 move unit with the Brave Bow (and the only other real contender considering that every other Paladin starts with E Bows). Alternatively, aku did mention giving Haar immediate access to the Silver Axe.

When I get back from my last 2 weeks in the army, I'll do a detailed analysis of the Arms Scrolls. We've always thought that they should go to Mist or the bank but maybe they can really help other characters. This sounds interesting.

[Shadow Mir]

Please repeat after me.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist does not deserve sinking both Arms Scrolls into her for the Sonic Sword.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Mist is not a combat unit.

Your time in detention is now done. Remember to show up tomorrow.

The point here is that Mist is not designed to be a combat unit, even with the Sonic Sword in her hands. Her primary usage is healing, Sonic Sword goodness just means that she doesn't suck at dealing damage. But she's never going to be good at dealing damage either, which means that I seriously doubt that we should sink both Arms Scrolls into her and staple the SS into her hand.

As for the sages, why bother using an Arms Scroll to get Soren/Ilyana/Tormod up to B whatever when Calill shows up with B everything? How many siege tome users do we honestly need in a single chapter? 3?

Another point to consider for the sages is the possibility that Soren and Ilyana may just reach B Wind/Thunder by the time Bolting and Blizzard show up. Both need to attack 90 times in order to knock their rank up to B (using Wind or Thunder, El makes it easier). Considering that Soren usually goes through his Wind tome completely by the end of Chapter 8, he's only needs 50 more attacks to get to B Wind. 25 if we toss him the Chapter 11 Elwind (because Ilyana sure as fuck can't use that). That's less than 2 tomes (Elwind will have 5 uses left) and he'll hit B Wind very quickly without needing an Arms Scroll. Ilyana is nicer to us since she starts out with Elthunder off the bat. She loses her ability to double anything (even though it's not like she was doubling with a -2 AS penalty on Thunder) but going through that Elthunder tome brings her 2/3 of the way to B Thunder. Why are we sinking Arms Scrolls into these guys again?

Now that we've freed the Arms Scrolls from the grasps of the sages and Mist, why don't we put them into characters who actually get some use out of them? Geoffrey starts with C Bows so giving him one gives him access to the Brave Bow. We could argue that Astrid is probably the better choice but she's got a better chance of getting screwed along the way which means that Geoffrey is essentially an RNG proof 9 move unit with the Brave Bow (and the only other real contender considering that every other Paladin starts with E Bows). Alternatively, aku did mention giving Haar immediate access to the Silver Axe.

When I get back from my last 2 weeks in the army, I'll do a detailed analysis of the Arms Scrolls. We've always thought that they should go to Mist or the bank but maybe they can really help other characters. This sounds interesting.

As for the siege tomes, they're only C rank.

Bold: Also, that's assuming that Soren doesn't activate Adept even once, since no WEXP is gained on extra attacks triggered by Adept.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[-Cynthia-]

The "Mist is entitled to the Arms Scrolls because there's no other use for them" argument is an old standby from the various discussions surrounding Mist. How Arms Scrolls should be used might be worth re-examining though. Granted, unlike many other FEs WEXP gain is pretty quick, but being able to equip better weapons sooner may be worth another look.

As for the mages, only problem I see with that is that Wind magic is just worse than the other two, even against fliers it barely manages to outdo Thunder. Fire magic is also only good against tigers/cats, thunder's better against everything else. But you're right that if we really want to use long range tomes we should probably just grab Calill and head to town.

[Life]

The "Mist is entitled to the Arms Scrolls because there's no other use for them" argument is an old standby from the various discussions surrounding Mist. How Arms Scrolls should be used might be worth re-examining though. Granted, unlike many other FEs WEXP gain is pretty quick, but being able to equip better weapons sooner may be worth another look.

As for the mages, only problem I see with that is that Wind magic is just worse than the other two, even against fliers it barely manages to outdo Thunder. Fire magic is also only good against tigers/cats, thunder's better against everything else. But you're right that if we really want to use long range tomes we should probably just grab Calill and head to town.

The point is that we won't see seige tomes in our inventory until the back end of Chapter 21. By then, we will have a Wind user, Thunder user and every element user (Calill joins for the start of 22).

EDIT: If siege tomes are rank C, then my point has been made for me.

One person that might want an Arms Scroll immediately is actually Devdan. The guy starts with B Lances in Chapter 16 but one of the chests contains... a Silver Lance. Isn't that considerate? We're looking at a 29 Atk and 13 AS user for the start of Chapter 17. He might still need a Speedwing or wings attached to his boots to double the shit there but it's worth looking into.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Life

[dondon151]

Tanith starts with B lances.

Haar starts with B lances and B axes.

To be honest, I can only think of Arms Scrolls being useful for units that will have B in a physical weapon rank in chapter 23, since that's when silver forges are first available. I don't think most other units would mind not being able to use normal silvers in that time frame because max MT steel forges are just as strong.

Also, Haar will almost definitely need an Arms Scroll in order to use silver anything. 60 WEXP is 30 attacks with steel, 60 attacks with ranged weapon, or a combination of both, and that's already pretty hard to do. Haar doesn't double particularly much, either.

Edited May 16, 2011 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

Also, Haar will almost definitely need an Arms Scroll in order to use silver anything. 60 WEXP is 30 attacks with steel, 60 attacks with ranged weapon, or a combination of both, and that's already pretty hard to do. Haar doesn't double particularly much, either.

This is probably the case.

As for other units still having a B... there are plenty of axe-wielding Paladins around in this game. And even for units with high base weapon rank such as Tanith, it's a serious struggle getting WEXP. As I recall, I didn't even have Boyd at A Axes by the time that Silvers were available. Tanith wasn't at A Lances either (and needed an Arms Scroll). Obviously, most players might not be as lazy about building WEXP as I was, but it just goes to show how slow WEXP builds in this game.

[Florete]

Yeah, this was the first game where I realized I actually needed to focus on WEXP if I wanted to get good weapon ranks. I suspect the reasons are:

-Removal of doubled weapon experience on a kill obviously slows it.

-There seems to be fewer enemies in this game (and RD) compared to previous games, probably to compensate for the existence of BEXP, which doesn't raise weapon levels.

I find that if you use Steel wherever reasonable you can probably get most units up relatively fast without Arms Scrolls, but it's still not easy for multiple prepromoted units like Haar who come late and also lack the ability to double consistently.

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah, this was the first game where I realized I actually needed to focus on WEXP if I wanted to get good weapon ranks. I suspect the reasons are:

-Removal of doubled weapon experience on a kill obviously slows it.

-There seems to be fewer enemies in this game (and RD) compared to previous games, probably to compensate for the existence of BEXP, which doesn't raise weapon levels.

I find that if you use Steel wherever reasonable you can probably get most units up relatively fast without Arms Scrolls, but it's still not easy for multiple prepromoted units like Haar who come late and also lack the ability to double consistently.

Agreed. Though getting weapon rank up in RD is a breeze for any non-laguz unit (mainly melee units, though). At least it's easier to get WEXP in this game than in FE6...

[Anouleth]

Yeah, this was the first game where I realized I actually needed to focus on WEXP if I wanted to get good weapon ranks. I suspect the reasons are:

-Removal of doubled weapon experience on a kill obviously slows it.

-There seems to be fewer enemies in this game (and RD) compared to previous games, probably to compensate for the existence of BEXP, which doesn't raise weapon levels.

I find that if you use Steel wherever reasonable you can probably get most units up relatively fast without Arms Scrolls, but it's still not easy for multiple prepromoted units like Haar who come late and also lack the ability to double consistently.

I think it's easier in Maniac Mode, where there are more enemies and a decreased level of reliance on BEXP. I mean for weapon ranks, in general, MM is obviously harder.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Black★Star

[aku chi]

That would be saying something... that is, if it weren't for the fact that you don't even see that many Generals or Wyvern Lords.

There are 11 such enemies in Chapter 26, and 10 such enemies in Chapter 27 (in chokepoints, no less).

Not sure all characters use BEXP equally here. If we can get twice the levelups of out Geoffrey with the same amount of BEXP that we can giving levels to Haar, Geoffrey seems like a better candidate. It's similar to how lower leveled characters often are given more Exp than higher leveled characters.

See this post. If other units can use the Bexp better than Haar, this strengthens the argument in favor of Haar. It's explained with both prose and math.

You keep assuming Arms Scrolls on Haar, while Mist might want them for the SS, Sages might want them for siege tomes etc. Haar's a bit at the bottom of the list here because he shows up later than these characters. And since when do we round numbers lower than .5 up?

- I didn't make assumptions, I pointed out facts. With certain resources, Haar can 2HKO enemies at 1-range that Geoffrey cannot. That is a fact. Geoffrey cannot say the same, because Silver Lance Geoffrey and Steel Axe Haar have about the same attack.

- It's incorrect to assume that Haar will have 23 Strength at level 15. He has almost as much chance at having 24 Strength. For this reason, I chose levels where Geoffrey and Haar had round numbers for their average Strength: to be more precise.

This reinforcement BEXP isn't that much. Most of these enemies are level 20, Haar only gets like 9 Exp for killing them. Considering how quickly we complete chapters and how we have other fliers to kill enemies, Haar's CEXP gains seem inflated.

Haar might not get much more than one level in Chapters 23 and 24 (that depends on what you do with Haar in Chapter 24), but Haar is in a great position (with his movement and durability) to expose himself to a bunch of enemies in Chapter 25 and gain a lot of Cexp (and help us rout the chapter).

Even when not ORKOing, Geoffrey leaves enemies at a lower HP than Haar does while doubling (say dragons we don't want to take a counter from). Geoffrey can also use the Flame Lance at 1-2 range to ORKO laguz without taking counters while Haar...just can't ORKO laguz period.

- In general, this first point has some merit, but the specific example is non-sensical because Geoffrey can't cripple/3HKO Dragons, even with the Laguz Lance.

- Geoffrey misses a lot of Flame Lance ORKOs (Tanith is a better candidate).

- Haar having poor combat against the laguz in Chapter 28 doesn't prevent him from making a crucial Ike rescue-drop to help complete the chapter (seize), while Geoffrey goes around inconsequentially killing laguz at the bottom of the map.

C28. Haar only doubles the Bishops and some of the Sages so like 4/50, Geoffrey can probably double all the enemies here (20/18 with all KW levelups).

Granted, but Haar is more useful in this particular chapter due to flight. Chapters 26, 27, and Endgame are their shared chapters where Haar doesn't have an important movement advantage.

It's less than that on other chapters, though ~20/50 on C26 is almost half as well.

And less than 10/50 in C27.

I think you're overall overrating Haar's flight utility. Its value is a lot higher when you're the only flier or something, but we already have Marcia, Jill, and Tanith (well and Janaff/Ulki/Elincia but eh).

Only a well trained Jill has comparable durability, so Haar can make tough rescue-drops in Chapters 25 and 28 that might be out of reach of the Falcon Knights. And if we're assuming optimal deployment (all three mounted fliers), Geoffrey is in much worse shape: why bother with him when we have Oscar, Kieran, and Jill? At least Haar can bring some unique utility as the flier with the best durability.

I say again, Haar gets two-shotted by chapter 24's Iron Ballistae, and there are 3 of those on the map. Sure, he can use the FG, but that means consigning one of the others to rely on dodging (and those things are pretty damn accurate).

Whatever Haar does in Chapter 24 is better than PC Geoffrey, no? But it's trivial to send Haar either north or west (to visit the houses) while exposing him to only one Ballista shot. And with Haar's great durability, he can take a lot of enemy punishment at half HP. And let's not ignore the existence of healing, if necessary. This is a strange attack on Haar, though, unless you're willing to also argue than all fliers without the Full Guard are crippled/useless in Chapter 24.

Regarding the Arms Scroll, I would welcome a discussion of their optimal use. I believe using both on Mist is a waste. Using one on Soren for Meteor might not be a bad idea (he can easily have more Magic than Calill). Nephenee might also benefit from an Arms Scroll to take her out of E Lances ASAP (it takes a long while naturally). Both Astrid and Geoffrey might have trouble reaching B Bows, so giving them one for the Brave Bow is a decent use. But Haar can be one of the better candidates, letting him 2HKO Wyvern Lords, Generals, and Tigers (though he often fails to double Tigers) with a silver forge.

[Radiant Dragon]

Not sure all characters use BEXP equally here. If we can get twice the levelups of out Geoffrey with the same amount of BEXP that we can giving levels to Haar, Geoffrey seems like a better candidate. It's similar to how lower leveled characters often are given more Exp than higher leveled characters.

We get more out of Haar by giving him this BEXP than we do giving it to Geoffrey however, since Haar is more useful in many more maps.

C28. Haar only doubles the Bishops and some of the Sages so like 4/50, Geoffrey can probably double all the enemies here (20/18 with all KW levelups).

Who cares about combat in Ch.28, when we're just dropping Ike (with Barrier/Pure Water) over the trees and Rescuing the dropper back to the east? Also, 20/18 is really high for Geoffrey, I don't care if he has Paragon. The man is only potentially being deployed in 2 maps before Ch.28.

I say again, Haar gets two-shotted by chapter 24's Iron Ballistae, and there are 3 of those on the map. Sure, he can use the FG, but that means consigning one of the others to rely on dodging (and those things are pretty damn accurate).

You forget that this problem isn't unique to Haar; We've got 4 fliers (and the Hawks), and only 1 Full Guard so 3 of them are going without. In fact, I'd say that Haar has an advantage over the other fliers in that he doesn't need the Full Guard as much as the others since his HP/Def is higher than theirs. Obviously this means he isn't blasting over the lake right away, but again we will only have one flier who can.

Granted, unlike many other FEs WEXP gain is pretty quick

Actually, FE9's WEXP gain (except Staves) is slower than the GBA games due to the lack of the fatal hit bonus and far fewer enemies.

But you're right that if we really want to use long range tomes we should probably just grab Calill and head to town.

I still can not fathom why Calill is still below the waste of space that is Gatrie.

[-Cynthia-]

See this post. If other units can use the Bexp better than Haar, this strengthens the argument in favor of Haar. It's explained with both prose and math.

"Geoffrey is a better use of BEXP than Haar" =/= "Haar doesn't need BEXP, thus Haar's team is superior".

If you don't want to assume BEXP on Haar, his leads on Geoffrey vanish. 20/17 Geoffrey has the same Str as base Haar. Yes, Geoffrey's team required use of that BEXP, but it was not so expensive due to Paragon. This list practices optimal resource distribution, which involves giving more BEXP if it has a greater effect.

Also, Geoffrey can make up/exceed Haar in Str with supports. Elincia is one option, not the best unit but she has staves and could be fielded. Calill has a Mov gap, but if we're rescue dropping her near combat she can be in Geoffrey's range. Haar can have Makalov and Jill supports, but all these help is his durability, which isn't really an issue except for ballistae.

I didn't make assumptions, I pointed out facts. With certain resources, Haar can 2HKO enemies at 1-range that Geoffrey cannot. That is a fact. Geoffrey cannot say the same, because Silver Lance Geoffrey and Steel Axe Haar have about the same attack.

"With an Arms Scroll" assumes Haar gets an Arms Scroll. I could say "With an Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Speedwing Geoffrey does x,y,z" but it would assume all of those resources on him and it would be silly to play the game that way.

It's incorrect to assume that Haar will have 23 Strength at level 15. He has almost as much chance at having 24 Strength. For this reason, I chose levels where Geoffrey and Haar had round numbers for their average Strength: to be more precise.

I can pull something similar. 20/16 Geoffrey has 20.5 Str round that up to 21, makes the same difference. The key issue here is that Haar being a higher level than Geoffrey involves some questionable BEXP distribution.

Haar might not get much more than one level in Chapters 23 and 24 (that depends on what you do with Haar in Chapter 24), but Haar is in a great position (with his movement and durability) to expose himself to a bunch of enemies in Chapter 25 and gain a lot of Cexp (and help us rout the chapter).

His durability here is compromised by the ballistae on the chapter. If you simply rush Haar up the mountain, he's probably going to die. Also, Haar likely has to share kills with Jill/Marcia/Tanith anyway.

In general, this first point has some merit, but the specific example is non-sensical because Geoffrey can't cripple/3HKO Dragons, even with the Laguz Lance.

He does a better job of this than Haar at any rate. It's easier for another unit to combine with Geoffrey on a dragon KO than they can with Haar.

Geoffrey misses a lot of Flame Lance ORKOs (Tanith is a better candidate).

True, Tanith is a better candidate, but it's something Geoffrey does much better than Haar. Not like Geoffrey needs it, a Laguz Lance+doubling should take care of anything not a dragon.

Granted, but Haar is more useful in this particular chapter due to flight. Chapters 26, 27, and Endgame are their shared chapters where Haar doesn't have an important movement advantage.

Ulki can fly. Ulki can make "crucial rescue drops" Ulki>Makalov, screw combat. Ulki probably would be better than Makalov if he were our only flying unit the whole game, but he isn't. He's immediately outclassed by other flying units with superior combat, just like Haar. Haar's not as far behind, and still potentially useful, but his flight is not Ashera's gift to Ike's army at this point in the game.

You can't just handwave Geoffrey's combat crushing Haar here because Haar can do something any other flying unit can do.

Only a well trained Jill has comparable durability, so Haar can make tough rescue-drops in Chapters 25 and 28 that might be out of reach of the Falcon Knights. And if we're assuming optimal deployment (all three mounted fliers), Geoffrey is in much worse shape: why bother with him when we have Oscar, Kieran, and Jill? At least Haar can bring some unique utility as the flier with the best durability.

Haar has the best durability? Jill probably has more Def/Res. Marcia/Tanith have less Def, but significantly more Avo with supports factored in. Even Janaff are Ulki are quite durable. There should be no situation in which Haar joins which can't be duplicated by another flier, and usually outclassed- especially by Jill. Granted, Geoffrey also just replicates the performance of higher tier units as well, which is why both are Mid tier.

Moved Haar up above Brom.

[Radiant Dragon]

"Geoffrey is a better use of BEXP than Haar" =/= "Haar doesn't need BEXP, thus Haar's team is superior".

If you don't want to assume BEXP on Haar, his leads on Geoffrey vanish. 20/17 Geoffrey has the same Str as base Haar. Yes, Geoffrey's team required use of that BEXP, but it was not so expensive due to Paragon. This list practices optimal resource distribution, which involves giving more BEXP if it has a greater effect.

I know Aku-Chi was arguing something different, but this is just ridiculous. Geoffrey is better than Haar after he gets 6 levels of BEXP and Haar gets none? Obviously. And Paragon or no, that's still 6 levels of BEXP to a unit that's at a high promoted level. Why wouldn't we give Haar some BEXP so he can double more enemies?

"With an Arms Scroll" assumes Haar gets an Arms Scroll. I could say "With an Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Speedwing Geoffrey does x,y,z" but it would assume all of those resources on him and it would be silly to play the game that way.

Same as before, Aku-Chi was arguing something different, but this is just ridiculous. Since when have Arms Scrolls been as contested for as Energy Drops, Dracoshields and Speedwings, yet alone all three at once?

I can pull something similar. 20/16 Geoffrey has 20.5 Str round that up to 21, makes the same difference. The key issue here is that Haar being a higher level than Geoffrey involves some questionable BEXP distribution.

Or maybe it just involves not fielding Geoffrey when he's useless. Assuming a 20/16 Geoffrey means he received 5 levels of BEXP in one base. Haar may not have Paragon, but he has had 3 chapters before this to gain CEXP and cap off levels with BEXP.

His durability here is compromised by the ballistae on the chapter. If you simply rush Haar up the mountain, he's probably going to die. Also, Haar likely has to share kills with Jill/Marcia/Tanith anyway.

The one ballista in this chapter should be dealt with by turn 2, for obvious reasons. Besides, Geoffrey can't even get kills in this chapter, so what's your point there?

He does a better job of this than Haar at any rate. It's easier for another unit to combine with Geoffrey on a dragon KO than they can with Haar.

...Woot? I don't think Geoffrey or Haar will even ever be fighting Dragons, let alone find themselves in a situation where they have to actually kill one.

True, Tanith is a better candidate, but it's something Geoffrey does much better than Haar. Not like Geoffrey needs it, a Laguz Lance+doubling should take care of anything not a dragon.

How fast are Cats and Tigers in this game? I know Geoffrey can double Tigers, but can he double Cats? Also, if Haar can double Tigers he can also easily take them out with a Laguz Axe/Lance.

Ulki can fly. Ulki can make "crucial rescue drops" Ulki>Makalov, screw combat. Ulki probably would be better than Makalov if he were our only flying unit the whole game, but he isn't. He's immediately outclassed by other flying units with superior combat, just like Haar. Haar's not as far behind, and still potentially useful, but his flight is not Ashera's gift to Ike's army at this point in the game.

Except Ulki doesn't join join 2 (essentially 3) chapters before Makalov and Makalov has more than 2 chapters of usefulness.

You can't just handwave Geoffrey's combat crushing Haar here because Haar can do something any other flying unit can do.

Geoffrey's combat does not 'crush' Haar's when Geoffrey doesn't have a 6 or 7 level lead on a unit that joins 2 (essentially 3) chapters before him at the same level. Stop sandbagging Haar.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

"Geoffrey is a better use of BEXP than Haar" =/= "Haar doesn't need BEXP, thus Haar's team is superior".

If you don't want to assume BEXP on Haar, his leads on Geoffrey vanish. 20/17 Geoffrey has the same Str as base Haar. Yes, Geoffrey's team required use of that BEXP, but it was not so expensive due to Paragon. This list practices optimal resource distribution, which involves giving more BEXP if it has a greater effect.

That wasn't my argument. I'll explain with an analogy (the only other way I can think of to explain this point). Let's say we want to compare Oscar with Titania. These two units will be optimally given a different amount of Bexp. There is some amount of Bexp close to zero, TBexp, that Titania will optimally be given. There is some different amount of Bexp: OBexp, perhaps in the 300-700 range, that Oscar will optimally be given. There are two simple resource distributions that can be used for a Titania v Oscar comparison:

- The first is to compare Titania and Oscar assuming that they both get TBexp. This is not realistic, nor is it fair for Oscar. He helps his team more with OBexp. Unsurprisingly, Titania is better in this comparison.

- The second is to compare Titania and Oscar assuming that they both get OBexp. This is not realistic for Titania. It is also not fair to her, because our assumption was that the positive difference in Bexp between OBexp and TBexp would be more valuable to our team if given to some other unit(s). So by giving OBexp to her, we are weakening our team (compared to giving Titania TBexp). So, if Titania is better than Oscar in this comparison, which is stacked in his favor, than Titania is clearly more valuable (on net) than Oscar when both are given their optimal Bexp amounts.

Replace Haar with Titania and Geoffrey with Oscar and you've decoded my argument. By assuming both Haar and Geoffrey get Geoffrey's optimal amount of Bexp, I am stacking the deck in Geoffrey's favor. If Haar is still better with this comparison, he is more valuable. A Haar with no Bexp may not be better than a Geoffrey with GBexp (I haven't made this comparison, because it is unnecessary), but he is clearly more valuable (due to the Bexp he saves) assuming Haar with GBexp > Geoffrey with GBexp, which is the argument I've been making most recently.

This is kind of an important point: it extends beyond this specific debate. Am I explaining my point understandably?

Also, Geoffrey can make up/exceed Haar in Str with supports. Elincia is one option, not the best unit but she has staves and could be fielded. Calill has a Mov gap, but if we're rescue dropping her near combat she can be in Geoffrey's range. Haar can have Makalov and Jill supports, but all these help is his durability, which isn't really an issue except for ballistae.

This is vague: let's get specific. Geoffrey cannot have any supports in C25. Geoffrey can have +1 Atk in Chapter 26, if both he and Calill were deployed in Chapter 25. But, Chapter 26 is a rush to the boss, Calill can't keep up unless ferried and there is no reason to do so. Geoffrey can have +3 Atk in Chapter 27 (+2 from Calill, +1 from Elincia), which sounds impressive, but Calill is again likely to fall behind. So unless we also let Geoffrey lag behind or ferry Calill for no other reason, Geoffrey will have +1 Atk at best. Elincia isn't deployable in Chapter 28, so Geoffrey can have +3 Atk for 1 turn (at best) before he outruns Calill. Geoffrey can get +4 Atk in Endgame, possibly +2 of which can keep up with him, which might be worth something.

"With an Arms Scroll" assumes Haar gets an Arms Scroll. I could say "With an Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Speedwing Geoffrey does x,y,z" but it would assume all of those resources on him and it would be silly to play the game that way.

"With an aluminum baseball bat, I could hit homeruns." makes no assumption about whether or not I have an aluminum bat, only what I could do with it if I had one.

His durability here is compromised by the ballistae on the chapter. If you simply rush Haar up the mountain, he's probably going to die. Also, Haar likely has to share kills with Jill/Marcia/Tanith anyway.

Which is it? Are all four fliers, of whom Haar is the most durable, unable to get to the top of the mountain without dying, or are all able to get up and share kills? Haar can easily tank a Ballista shot (he only needs to tank one). We can even heal him with Physic if we need to. A well trained Jill can make a similar claim, but the Falcon Knights take mighty damage from the Ballista and can get torn up if rushed to the top of the mountain.

Ulki can fly. Ulki can make "crucial rescue drops" Ulki>Makalov, screw combat. Ulki probably would be better than Makalov if he were our only flying unit the whole game, but he isn't. He's immediately outclassed by other flying units with superior combat, just like Haar. Haar's not as far behind, and still potentially useful, but his flight is not Ashera's gift to Ike's army at this point in the game.

Ulki has 8 mov, no canto, inferior durability, inferior offense, requires a Demi Band, and can't stay transformed forever; it is the very worst kind of flier utility. Haar is tied for the best movement (9 mov flying canto) with only four other units. He is the most durable among them (only Jill comes close). While his offense is inferior (though Marcia really struggles to 2HKO near endgame), that is not too important in a Rescue/Drop scenario.

You can't just handwave Geoffrey's combat crushing Haar here because Haar can do something any other flying unit can do.

I can most certainly ignore Geoffrey's combat in Chapter 28, because if we Rescue/drop Ike over the trees, Geoffrey's combat isn't helping us complete the chapter or even a secondary objective.

Haar has the best durability? Jill probably has more Def/Res. Marcia/Tanith have less Def, but significantly more Avo with supports factored in. Even Janaff are Ulki are quite durable. There should be no situation in which Haar joins which can't be duplicated by another flier, and usually outclassed- especially by Jill.

See here.