RTU discussion thread

[Randa]

Because its beginning to get cluttered with discussions on the ratings given in the rate the unit thread I'm gonna make a thread to talk about the ratings. If you have questions on a rating please ask here and the same rules basically apply as in the RTU.

Happy arguing

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40201&page=13#entry2410368

[Da Bear]

If you have any questions about anything chances are I can help! although if I can't others should be able to help as well!

Can someone post something because I don't want to double post and I have something I want to answer.

Edited May 24, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Randa]

Okay so the major things that seem to be talked about

1) Fredericks lower scores (consult bear on this)

2) Fred's rating in conjunction with Lissas rating.

[Da Bear]

Okay, but if using him as a combatant is a net negative while using him as a pairup bot is a net positive, why are you ranking him based on a bad way to use him? And being unnecessary is a silly reason to get a such a low score, as others have said.

Again, I'm not saying that these aren't valid reasons for giving him a lower score, but "unnecessary, but helpful for a while" does not come out to a 3-4 unless you plan on ranking pretty much everyone in the 1-5 point range.

I would expect those people to give her a far superior ranking than her average, though. The criteria is vague enough that you could take it to be about postgame or whatever if you wanted to, I guess, but that's not what people have said.

First off I'm avoiding ranking people for how good they are as a support bot and more of a ranking for their virtues. If I counted how good he was for pair ups I would give him closer to 6. Probably a 5.

I agree with this I was simply saying that seemed to be what most people were saying as a negative. I personally believe that he's a net negative so a 4/10 is fairly accurate.

idk about Lissa votes. I voted her higher than Frederick because leveling her doesn't have any real cost (lolmoney), the way I see it just about any unit in this game has some cost for the EXP they take. The better they use the EXP given to them the better they are. As a healer Lissa leveling isn't taking EXP from anyone for a while and never really that many making her cost be lower than most units. She still levels pretty slowly I'm just explaining my vote a bit better.

Sorry if this is at all confusing.

[Randa]

Well from what I can tell on the Lissa V. Fred thing I see an issue that I would like people to explain if possible.

The major issue with Fred is a lack of exp but Lissa who gains good exp thanks to major staff exp upgrade is still rated significantly worse by most people. Is this solely because of combat?

[General Horace]

sure lissa can take exp from noone other than like maribelle or other healers (which isn;t a huge deal) but she does almost nothing with the exp, as she's too squishy to fight even upon promotion, and really, when you're effectively replaced by a vulnerary in the earlygame, and eventually concoctions, you're not a good unit. Frederick's contributions in the first 5 or so chapters even if he's a pairup bot is more than Lissa can ever do, unless someone can come up with something that proves my point null

[HeroMystic]

I find Frederick getting 4's is unreasonable, but I also find Fred getting 9's and 10's to be unreasonable as well. For the nth time, this is Hard Mode. Frederick's strong earlygame does not have that much value in this mode because everyone isn't losing their brain matter whenever they get hit.

Lissa has her low score because healing is undervalued in Hard Mode, and it takes forever for her to do anything other than heal. Even then, she can't do anything with those level-ups because her magic skill is E upon promotion, and she has abyssmal physical stats so it's unwise to reclass her for combat purposes.

You -can- just switch her to Peg knight and use her pair-up bonuses for +SPD, but that's a waste of a Second seal imo.

[Randa]

I'm just going to throw this out on Lissa I find that as a cleric!sage!darkflier she can be a relatively good unit using magic to take out physical enemies and lances to take out the magic users. Using 1-2 range with Galeforce can keep her squishy nature out of trouble and her resistance makes her very helpful against magic users. I don't think she deserves all the low scores she got.

Also I think Fred got a lot of high scores to try and balance the low scores from people's comments.

[General Horace]

However, since the mode is hard mode, Frederick can still easily orko into the lategame. Sure he's not doing the 40x2's that someone like Panne is doing, but when the enemies only have 60 HP, all that damage isn't required. Speed tonics keeps his speed good enough to double, unless you're doing some silly pairing.

WRT Cleric->Sage->Level15DarkFlier, how is lissa getting that many levels, even if you play slowly? I admittably didn't read all the guidelines for what RTU's are assuming, but if you're allowed that many levels on her, Frederick taking his share of exp is no issue at all.

And the way I see it, a 5 is an average unit. I'm pretty sure everyone (well, most everyone) can agree that he's at the very least, above average.

Edited May 24, 2013 by General Horace

[HeroMystic]

I'm just going to throw this out on Lissa I find that as a cleric!sage!darkflier she can be a relatively good unit using magic to take out physical enemies and lances to take out the magic users. Using 1-2 range with Galeforce can keep her squishy nature out of trouble and her resistance makes her very helpful against magic users. I don't think she deserves all the low scores she got.

Also I think Fred got a lot of high scores to try and balance the low scores from people's comments.

This takes a signifcantly long time to do. Are we applying postgame use as well? Because Lissa will never reach this point within an efficient playthrough.

[Randa]

No I understand that, it is an irrational amount without grinding but the point to be made was that if you can get there she is extremely good.

As an example she gains a level every four heals. Staff abusing has her promoting with the first master seal and absolutely no later than chapter 12. After that her exp will be increased because she is healing while having the ability to attack and counter. Her tome rank will rise and she should hit level 15 to get tome faire around chapter 21 (all paralogues asumed) and can reclass. Now shitty lance level isn't good but it makes her a Mage killer which is very helpful in the upcoming level. Now she likely won't get Galeforce till post game, but she can still get it and help her survivability go way up.

[Da Bear]

However, since the mode is hard mode, Frederick can still easily orko into the lategame. Sure he's not doing the 40x2's that someone like Panne is doing, but when the enemies only have 60 HP, all that damage isn't required. Speed tonics keeps his speed good enough to double, unless you're doing some silly pairing.

WRT Cleric->Sage->Level15DarkFlier, how is lissa getting that many levels, even if you play slowly? I admittably didn't read all the guidelines for what RTU's are assuming, but if you're allowed that many levels on her, Frederick taking his share of exp is no issue at all.

And the way I see it, a 5 is an average unit. I'm pretty sure everyone (well, most everyone) can agree that he's at the very least, above average.

I really don't think you're understanding my posts.

Lissa can level without any real cost. Just because healing isn't that great doesn't mean it's not useful.

Frederick can level at a pretty large cost. Your points about this being lolhard mode works against Frederick's early game because him getting EXP happens slower than anyone else and he has no real reason to be used because other people can clear maps nearly as well and use the EXP better.

This combines to make Frederick "above average" only if one is counting his ability to support. Something I'm avoiding in just about every case (Chrom is all about is ability to support).

Also I've had Lissa become an okay combat unit in the past. She did it with almost no cost.

IMO mediocre with no cost + Unique utility > okay-good with great cost.

Also you really need to figure out that Frederick has several weaknesses because your vote reeked of bias.

[Ema Skye]

Frederick's wide range of votes most likely comes from the many ways you can play the game. To people aiming for lower turn counts, Frederick is fantastic and should be around 7-9 range. But if you value postgame, then he's actually fairly underwhelming, which is where all the 4s most likely came from.

We'll most likely see things like this come up for kids and Donnel because their usefulness depends on how the player plays the game.

[Da Bear]

Frederick's wide range of votes most likely comes from the many ways you can play the game. To people aiming for lower turn counts, Frederick is fantastic and should be around 7-9 range. But if you value postgame, then he's actually fairly underwhelming, which is where all the 4s most likely came from.

We'll most likely see things like this come up for kids and Donnel because their usefulness depends on how the player plays the game.

I'm the odd one out because I vote according to neither of these standards

[Randa]

I am not looking forward to donnel.

[General Horace]

In addition to what Lucina said above, its not hard to treat Frederick like a normal unit, and give him roughly the same number of kills as any front runner, and he'll do just fine. Tonics really are pretty overpowered, but it really just melts down to ones playstyle I think. Agree to disagree I guess.

[Da Bear]

In addition to what Lucina said above, its not hard to treat Frederick like a normal unit, and give him roughly the same number of kills as any front runner, and he'll do just fine. Tonics really are pretty overpowered, but it really just melts down to ones playstyle I think. Agree to disagree I guess.

I'm fine with this idea but people keep on questioning my vote or votes near (in the same range) mine so I need to explain because I prefer clarity.

Also I move we skip Donnel.

Edited May 24, 2013 by pedoclaw13

[Randa]

I don't see it so much as them attacking your scores/those closer to yours, rather I see it as wondering why the score was given so low.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Randa

[Da Bear]

I don't see it so much as them attacking your scores/those closer to yours, rather I see it as wondering why the score was given so low.

Yes. I probably phrased that incorrectly... I should fix that.

Also I'm wondering how exactly we want to work children? I'm wondering because it's something that hasn't been done overly well before...

[Randa]

I actually need to find someone to run that for me. I think I'm gonna be out of town for four days in the end of June so I need someone to do it for me. Either way I was thinking of doing a poll about the best farther for each the day before the rating. Or we can take forever and do every possible combination. I do not advise the latter.

[Da Bear]

I actually need to find someone to run that for me. I think I'm gonna be out of town for four days in the end of June so I need someone to do it for me. Either way I was thinking of doing a poll about the best farther for each the day before the rating. Or we can take forever and do every possible combination. I do not advise the latter.

The latter would be more thorough... (I don't care if I spelled that wrong)

We could do something like this:

Cynthia.

+Flying, Galeforce

+Tanky options for classes.

-Bow weakness in base class

-Low strength and defense thanks to her base class and mother

6/10

With Frederick:

+Helps defense and strength

-Gives her very little speed

8/10

With Chrom:

+Aether

-Defense isn't the best

7/10

With MU:

+LolMU is father

+ massive inheritance becaue lolMU is her father.

9/10

Something like this that would evaluate pre-second parent and evaluate how he/she does with some of the better options

...This thing was brief and not very accurate but I'm using it as an example.

Edited May 24, 2013 by pedoclaw13

[Randa]

It might work, but it would be a bitch to average all those scores, and I don't think everyone has used every combination. Though they don't have to do all of them.

[Da Bear]

It might work, but it would be a bitch to average all those scores, and I don't think everyone has used every combination. Though they don't have to do all of them.

I didn't add Gaius there for that reason.

Who's pairing Sumia and Gaius anyway? There's no need to rank useless pairings.

[Ema Skye]

There's really no easy way to rate the kids, so I'd rather just give each kid their own day and each kid gets one universal score, like in FE4. Consider all the good options for your rating, ignore the ones you feel are bad, and then rate off of that. Less work for everyone.

[Anacybele]

I noticed some people saying Frederick's growths were bad. How the hell is a 110% HP growth, 65% strength growth, 55% skill growth, 55% defense growth, and 50% speed growth bad? Sure these aren't omg amazing, but his res and magic growths are the only truly bad ones he has. And with that insane HP growth, Frederick probably has the highest growth total of any Jagen in existence. I don't think any other has a guaranteed stat increase each level.

Also, Frederick hardly needs much speed. With all that HP plus a good defense growth, he can take plenty of hits and wall a ton of shit. And that strength growth is great and can let the guy OHKO mages who would normally hit him hard. If they go after him first, pair him up with someone that'll give him some avoid. He should dodge some hits.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Anacybele