Periodic Table of Elements ~Game Thread~ Game Over

[Grace]

and i forgot to append that to the other half of my post. whoops

And re: thinking too much early: scum know from the get-go that they have to manufacture something, so I'd think they'd be more inclined to be graspy ED1 in general.

most of ED1 from both alignments are grasping (not necessarily for a mislynch or w/e, someone mentioned it later in the thread) because of the lack of info, which is why rvs is a thing (to which I promptly smashed into tiny pieces)

so, i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here grass. maybe elaborating on the context of "grasping" in this case may also be useful.

[Zkirsche]

Grasping is the next misrep of mafia buzzwords.

[Grace]

it really is kirsche, it really is.

another actual question post inc when i quickly write it up

[Grace]

BBM is actually reminding me more of C9++ right now, hence why I don't feel like voting him.

okay back to this for a sec

why specifically the C9++!town!BBM over something like, say, AM/PM!scum!BBM? what specifically makes you think he's playing like his C9++ play?

[Grace]

hold on, brain is working very scattered today (like always)

this post here by boron actually rubs me the wrong way: she basically summarizes why BBM is scummy (which by itself would be fine because it's a read), but then turns around and basically invalidates all of it by saying it reminds her of C9++. not liking that. follow up question is above because these are intrinsically linked.

[Elieson]

Elieson Presents: Mafia Votals: The Legacy of Votals


BBM (4): Manix, PMP, Refa, kirsche
Poly (2): Grass, SB
Grass (2): BBM, Eury
Zell (1): Sangyul
Refa (1): Poly
prims (1): Zell

Not Voting: shmobum, Mei

Takes majority vote by Phase End [This Day Only] in order to lynch, or 7 to end early with a hammer.

64 hours remain in this phase.

Edited November 3, 2013 by The Protown SK

[SB.]

I can agree with Manix's point on Boron to an extent, but rather than outright dismissing her BBM suspicions I feel like she's just fencesitting which still isn't good. It also kind of bugs me how she's poking at other people to contribute when she isn't really scumhunting much herself, just outing some townreads and saying that she agrees with something Prims said.

[Momentai~]

Manix, since your vote on me is serious you should distinguish more clearly between what's a joke and what isn't because while the latest few jokes like the AtE one have been obvious, the first one with the "what if I scumclaimed" wasn't, especially as your next post said your vote on me was serious.

Trollstool, if you could post to tell me that that you hadn't seen the majority of the posts before your first post, you could have also included the opinions I asked for.

I'm not intentionally being facetious lol, wasn't sure where the jokes ended and the srs bsns started

Okay so yeah. I think I have made the proper distinction now.

I don't like the people who said "whoops can't be assed to read the thread but these sure are a lot of posts!" then jokevoted. Refa especially, do you think BBM is mafia or are you just leaving your vote there because?

Hush, you adorable little creature! I have to sleep too!

This game feels like it's progressing so quickly lol.

You guys all seem to know each other pretty well so I feel I can't contribute anything there. You can pick out reads based on prior experiences but I don't really have much to go off of with this. I'll try though. PMP and Manix seem to be trying to take out Marshmallow based on their knowledge of his town/scum actions. I feel that it's more town for people to try to pick out the easiest scum than it is scum for scum to pick out the easiest town; it's more likely that town would go for an easy scum target at the start than it is for scum to go after town they feel they could easily lynch in the beginning. Hope that makes sense? That's why I am getting more town from them than scum.

As for Marshmallow himself... I am not getting anything weird from him. He seems to be acting the same as he was in the prior game in which he was town but I'm sure it's easy for a practiced mafia player to act town even when their role isn't town. It could go either way here so I'm gonna go with null on Marshmallow.

I honestly have no idea how anyone can read anything from what we have so far, in terms of tone at least, and in terms of things that will last to the end of the day. But I don't get a great feeling from that Polydeuces post, can't put my finger on it. (something along the lines of: "that's a lot of levels of thought for this early in the game.)

##Unvote

##Vote: Polydeuces

I think the first part of this statement is a valid thing to think but I don't agree someone thinking too much (it sounds like this is what you're saying, correct me if I am wrong please) is an inherently town or scum kind of thing. Well, I guess I can see why the attempt to compensate with fluff to make it look like one is making a serious contribution to town can be seen as scummy but I still don't agree with that thought process.

##Unvote

I have no reason to stay on PMP lol. I don't have any inkling as to who's scummy now. Plus I'm not poisoned *cough* so there's no rush here.

I can agree with Manix's point on Boron to an extent, but rather than outright dismissing her BBM suspicions I feel like she's just fencesitting which still isn't good. It also kind of bugs me how she's poking at other people to contribute when she isn't really scumhunting much herself, just outing some townreads and saying that she agrees with something Prims said.

Makes sense. I just dismissed it as Sangyul trying to bring out more people in an attempt to scumhunt since he didn't currently see any of the current people as scummy.

[Grassbridger]

Well, yes, I can understand thinking that grasping is scummy, but as I said in my last post, what exactly is scum!Poly grasping for? When you say somebody is scummy for grasping, that generally means "grasping for a mislynch". Dunno why he'd want to grasp to prove a townread on me. His read on Refa isn't much but it's not really grasping, just a gutread.

tldr I think you are grasping ##Unvote, ##Vote: Grassbridger

Responding to this and also to Manix's suggestion that I explain what I meant by "grasping":

What I voted Poly for was talking about what I read as very specific scenarios very early in the game. Very specific scenarios are, of course, unlikely just by probability. He was like "scum!BBM and town!Manix doesn't really make that much sense unless Manix is 'outplaying' BBM in which case w/e" which theorizes specific alignments for two players, says it doesn't make sense, then nullifies his conclusions. Then he said "I don't think Refa's not dumb enough to bus BBM D1 unless he's really trying to throw us off" which, again, theorizes alignments for two specific players, says it doesn't make sense, then nullifies his conclusions.

Basically, it sounded to me like he was talking about overly contrived things that would look like contribution later, but weren't, because they were too specific and also waffly. What I meant by "too many levels of thought for this early in the game" was that in each case, he's at least 3 levels deep in his logic, which seems like he's trying really hard to talk about something.

What I meant by "grasping" is mostly what I talked about in bold: trying hard to come up with specific, unlikely scenarios. I agree, BBM, that Poly wasn't really grasping to prove anything in particular, so maybe it's the wrong word to use.

[BBM]

Lol why can't I find someone townie even though they find me suspicious? I honestly don't get this wagon on me at all, nor how my play is similar to AM/PM or Snooping. In fact considering the vote on me here was originally because I was trying too hard to emulate my town meta of townreading people, how the hell is that similar to either of those two games at all, considering I barely did either of those things there? Especially Snooping Around- I didn't townread anyone except Prims the confirmed town and Refa, my scumbuddy. And in fact in AM/PM I was found suspicious early on N0 because I was trying NOT to townread people, and then the rest of the case after that was based on reactions. Like wtf first I'm scummy for not townreading people early for no reason and then I'm scummy for doing so and trying to emulate my "townmeta" and I'm also scummy for those two things somehow being similar to each other? Like fuck how do those last two things even make sense together.

Like seriously why is my play like AM/PM or Snooping? Nobody's offered a reason for why this is so, and considering the other reasons for the vote on me, it makes literally zero sense. And Manix- you're asking Boron why my play is more like C9++ than AM/PM and Snooping- I ask you, why is my play more like the latter than the former?

And seriously, why the hell would anyone think that me buddying up to Manix is going to make him not find me scummy? He's found me scummy in every single one of the last games that I can remember where he was town- Masquerade, Group, C9++, Folgore Rangers, 3/4 times of which I was town. It's part of my townmeta on him for him to get paranoid suspicions of me early and tunnel on me for the rest of the time we are both alive and I'm not also a Friendly Townie. If I was going to pull a strategy like trying to buddy up to someone finding me suspicious, I sure as hell wouldn't do it to Manix.

Don't particularly see anything wrong with Boron- I think that the "give reasons for finding someone suspicious and then dismiss them" is only scummy if you're giving reasons for the first part that others haven't, because then you're pushing the lynch while simultaneously distancing yourself from it. Considering the stuff she said about townreading blah blah wasn't anything at least three others hadn't said, it wasn't really pushing my lynch forward much to say it as well. And IIRC she also said she thinks I'm town or at least not scummy, which is not fence-sitting at all. In fact what SB did was much more like fence-sitting because he was like "yeah BBM is doing this stuff but I'm not really getting much from it"; nullread.

Looking at SB's other stuff, his Poly vote is kind of ehh because Poly doesn't really ignore what's going on- he chimes in on stuff between me/Manix/Prims on the second page, and is the first out of people other than us three to do so. And as Kirsche pointed out, Prims was saying more or less the same thing as him about Refa, and I was saying somewhat similar stuff against Trollstool.

[BBM]

Also, people bussing each other hard early on only happens with certain people or in certain situations- Paperblade does it all game because he has difficulty BSing cases on people he knows is town, so he busses his buddies instead because he can make good cases there. Theatre, IIRC Manix was tired of being scum like 5 times in a row and asked to be bussed D1 because of it. I did it in AM/PM because I was expecting to die and I was trying to give my buddies towncred before I did so. Otherwise it happens if someone is looking really bad and the others don't have much choice, like Fakeclaim.

Anyways wrt Grass his case on Poly is still kind of ehhh and Poly comes up with these elaborate reasons for things like every game, and I get the sense he'd do so as either alignment (even though he hasn't been scum yet). Also he never really said anything about the case on me or anything regarding it at all, which is pretty bad. Content with keeping my vote here for now.

[Grassbridger]

Anyways wrt Grass his case on Poly is still kind of ehhh and Poly comes up with these elaborate reasons for things like every game, and I get the sense he'd do so as either alignment (even though he hasn't been scum yet). Also he never really said anything about the case on me or anything regarding it at all, which is pretty bad. Content with keeping my vote here for now.

I've played maybe 1 game with Poly? I know he's new but I don't see anything better to vote right now. Your defense of him is meta and it's meta that I haven't picked up on.

Most of the case on you seems to be meta, revolving around 3 games (AM/PM, Snooping, C9++) that I didn't play in (well, I subbed into AM/PM long after you were dead but that doesn't count), so I didn't feel like I had anything to say. I didn't even read AM/PM until I subbed in, didn't read Snooping at all, and C9++ was like 6 months ago.

FWIW my read on you is pretty null. I don't see the case and right now I'm not reading anything off your defense either. So, again, nothing to say.

[SB.]

BBM's last post feels like he's overreacting but it feels more like he's annoyed before being defensive about himself. I feel his rage is actually kind of townie, checking back in his other posts, and his scumhunting doesn't really feel forced to me.

Boron was fencesitting on you in posts like this and although she says she wouldn't vote you she doesn't say if you're town or null to her until her second to last post up till now, and even then that could be kind of taken either way. My read on her isn't strong though, I pretty much want her to come back in with reads that aren't townreads because I have no idea who she thinks is scum right now.

Stuff like this isn't contributing. Poly only provides a read after Prims pokes him and said read is pretty much "Boron hasn't posted since RVS" rather than her refusing to contribute, which is what it seems to imply, and he asks for detailed reads when he has none himself. Other posts include sheeping Prims and jokevoting Refa rather than sticking to the person that he's actually suspicious of. This post is essentially the same thing that he posted 2 posts ago with still no reasons and just loud sheeping. Ignoring what was going on was shitty wording for not really contributing, I guess.

[SB.]

either way writing that stuff up made me feel more certain on my Poly read,so shrug.

[Zkirsche]

My member title once again goes into effect.

Lol why can't I find someone townie even though they find me suspicious?

It's not just that, it looks like a bad way of buddying. Sure, you can say you wouldn't do it to Manix but using self-meta as a defence is bad. I really don't see what benefit town!BBM has of saying that he has a town read on Manix this early into the game.

Lol why can't I find someone townie even though they find me suspicious?

Like wtf first I'm scummy for

Like fuck how do those last two things even make sense together.

Like seriously why is my play like AM/PM or Snooping?

seriously, why the hell would anyone think

This is 2-3 times more emotion than I'd expect out of Town!BBM or most town players really.

This is very much similar to AM/PM as there you were basically crying over how frustrated you were at people's meta of you and you're doing the same thing here. The play I'm comparing you right now to is not the origin of the case but the reactions you made towards it, which mirror your reactions now.

[Zkirsche]

I thought I'd be more picky with the paragraphs but apparently not. No quote bombing today.

I kinda feel like BBM's stuff against SB is worse than his stuff against Grass (hypocrisy, bad reasoning for a Poly vote vs bad reasoning for a Poly vote and having nothing to say about BBM v the world). Also, the way he made those posts looks like: "Man SB is really bad" *realises he forgot about GB* "Oh but GB is still worse because -reasons-".

BBM's last post feels like he's overreacting but it feels more like he's annoyed before being defensive about himself. I feel his rage is actually kind of townie, checking back in his other posts, and his scumhunting doesn't really feel forced to me.

Why?

[Grassbridger]

Kirsche brings up a good point re: BBM and emotion. This is way more early emotion than I'd expect from town. What I'm mostly noticing is the swearing and "come on guys" tone. But I recall making a read on this basis in some previous game (thinking someone was using stronger language than the situation warranted) and being pretty wrong. Also, I couldn't find a recent game where BBM was under pressure early as town, so AM/PM doesn't tell you that much without a comparison. (I just read through BBM's D1 ISO in most games from this year.)

Overall, I find the emotion thing to be slightly scummy.

One thing that I do notice about BBM, though, is that he isn't asking questions. Well, he is, but they're all either defensive or rhetorical. Something I found as I was reading his D1s is that he usually has a fair number of posts that don't have votes attached but are asking people to clarify or expand on things they said. In this game, the only question he's asked that wasn't about himself (that I can find) is him asking me how Poly's post is graspy, which seems rhetorical and also had a vote attached to it. I also found a quote where BBM says that his original scum meta was to ask questions instead of contributing, and he consciously changed that over two games. Maybe it's the opposite now?

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

In summary I find the not asking questions at all to be moderately scummy which is more scummy than I find Poly

[SB.]

Getting annoyed isn't scummy. I tend to get kind of mad if I think that a case on me is terrible as town too.

One thing that I do notice about BBM, though, is that he isn't asking questions. Well, he is, but they're all either defensive or rhetorical. Something I found as I was reading his D1s is that he usually has a fair number of posts that don't have votes attached but are asking people to clarify or expand on things they said. In this game, the only question he's asked that wasn't about himself (that I can find) is him asking me how Poly's post is graspy, which seems rhetorical and also had a vote attached to it. I also found a quote where BBM says that his original scum meta was to ask questions instead of contributing, and he consciously changed that over two games. Maybe it's the opposite now?

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

In summary I find the not asking questions at all to be moderately scummy which is more scummy than I find Poly

This is a stupid reason to find someone scummy. I've spotted a couple of scumhunting questions, not too many, but either way this case is just bad meta. You're making an assumption based on pretty much only meta and making a leap in logic that the since he asks questions as town, he must not as scum. There's a difference between not playing to a town meta and playing to your scum meta.

[BBM]

fuck you guys I am not posting anything for the rest of the day because it's not going to go well

[Grassbridger]

This is a stupid reason to find someone scummy. I've spotted a couple of scumhunting questions, not too many, but either way this case is just bad meta. You're making an assumption based on pretty much only meta and making a leap in logic that the since he asks questions as town, he must not as scum. There's a difference between not playing to a town meta and playing to your scum meta.

Oh man you're right. Okay, I'm going to look back through those ISOs again and see if there's a difference.

[Zkirsche]

Getting annoyed isn't scummy. I tend to get kind of mad if I think that a case on me is terrible as town too.

It's not just that he's getting annoyed, it's the degree to which he is. Missed this:

"Boron hasn't posted since RVS"

I actually reread the vote and actually it is pretty bad. It was pretty much RVS when Boron made that vote so voting her seems kinda bad, I thought that her post was later on. The vote is basically there just to appease Prims and has no actual read behind it whatsoever.

Meh, BBM is defo scum regardless.

fuck you guys I am not posting anything for the rest of the day because it's not going to go well

Ok scum go cool off, in the meantime we'll lynch you.

[Grassbridger]

Yeah I was dumb... I did look at both town and scum games but he asked that type of question in both.

##Unvote

so now I'm back to "BBM's play is definitely different than previous games but I have no idea why or how or whether there's a pattern" -> null

I don't think this is all that similar to AM/PM, there's much more emotion comparatively

##Vote: Poly

I'm back to this, SB's points on Poly are at least a little convincing

[Eurykins]

I don't think BBM's truly scum at this point, despite the amount of scrutiny he's been put under. Sure, he's showing more emotion than perhaps he usually does, but perhaps it's because he knows that he's easily targeted/called out by specific people fairly often (if I'm recalling correctly)- namely by Manix and Prims. I'm pretty sure anyone would get frustrated and show some emotion if people kept instantly sniping after them for the smallest of reasons and never relenting.

Quite frankly, I'd be more suspicious of someone who chose to remain detached and otherwise appeared to be unaffected, as opposed to actually getting affected by the constant interrogations.

Kirsche brings up a good point re: BBM and emotion. This is way more early emotion than I'd expect from town. What I'm mostly noticing is the swearing and "come on guys" tone. But I recall making a read on this basis in some previous game (thinking someone was using stronger language than the situation warranted) and being pretty wrong. Also, I couldn't find a recent game where BBM was under pressure early as town, so AM/PM doesn't tell you that much without a comparison. (I just read through BBM's D1 ISO in most games from this year.)

Overall, I find the emotion thing to be slightly scummy.

One thing that I do notice about BBM, though, is that he isn't asking questions. Well, he is, but they're all either defensive or rhetorical. Something I found as I was reading his D1s is that he usually has a fair number of posts that don't have votes attached but are asking people to clarify or expand on things they said. In this game, the only question he's asked that wasn't about himself (that I can find) is him asking me how Poly's post is graspy, which seems rhetorical and also had a vote attached to it. I also found a quote where BBM says that his original scum meta was to ask questions instead of contributing, and he consciously changed that over two games. Maybe it's the opposite now?

In summary I find the not asking questions at all to be moderately scummy which is more scummy than I find Poly

I still don't like the vibes I'm getting from Grass. It's like he's trying to jump on the easiest bandwagon atm, using the weakest of reasons to build on top of the scrutiny/suspicions that Prims and Manix already set up on BBM in order to validate his vote. That, by far, is more suspicious to me than BBM's emotional responses.

[Eurykins]

*And he slipped in a post before mine went through. Fun times.

Yeah I was dumb... I did look at both town and scum games but he asked that type of question in both.

##Unvote

so now I'm back to "BBM's play is definitely different than previous games but I have no idea why or how or whether there's a pattern" -> null

I don't think this is all that similar to AM/PM, there's much more emotion comparatively

##Vote: Poly

I'm back to this, SB's points on Poly are at least a little convincing

So you're voting based on something one person said, as opposed to putting your own thoughts/reads down on Poly?

[SB.]

WRT everyone saying that BBM is way too emotional to be town, why is this? Would like an explanation.