Periodic Table of Elements ~Game Thread~ Game Over

[SB.]

glad to know i wasn't the only one who thought we were playing an 11p game with some inactives

[MRDRHAWK]

I remembered they were playing when I went to ISO Kirsche to make sure I didn't miss anything of his.

They probably don't even know this started.

[Zkirsche]

Well we aren't even 24 hours in tbf, feels like it's been longer.

[scorri]

If mei and shmo have not read their role PMs and posted 36 hours after game start, they will be modsubbed.

Boring votals:

BBM (4): Manix, PMP, Refa, kirsche
Poly (1): SB
Grass (2): BBM, Eury
Zell (1): Sangyul
Refa (1): Poly

Eury(1): Grass

Not Voting: shmobum, Mei, Zell

Edited November 3, 2013 by scorri

[Sunwoo]

Okay, I stopped paying attention at around page 5, so I'll start there.

Page 5:

Already mentioned by others, but Polydeuces' post on page 4 about BBM, Refa, and Snoop really makes no sense. Getting "Snoop mafia" vibes from Refa shouldn't affect your read on BBM. I also have no idea what you think about BBM either. So Refa is giving you scum reads, and you're getting "Snoop" vibes from BBM, but you don't think he's scum yet but wary of him being scum because of Refa? As for stuff about bussing on D1, it really depends on the player.

Grassbridger votes Poly because he feels that Poly is grasping. While Poly doesn't make sense, I'm not sure if "grasping" is the right word to use here. I don't have a problem with his Polydeuces vote, in all honesty, but I can't say I'm a fan of the logic he used to vote him.

Eury waffles on BBM, Manix, and Prims and votes Grassbridger, reasoning being "something feels weird and I don't like the vibes, but can't put my finger on it." Not really liking this. ;/

Page 6:

@Manix: I think BBM is playing like his C9++ self because after stating a random townread on you in the beginning of the game, he got defensive and angry/emotional when he started getting a lot of heat over it, digging himself into a hole as a result. In D2 before he got lynched he spent pretty much the entire phase defending himself and trying to save himself by comparing actions and behavior people wanted him lynched over to what other people were doing. I didn't pay close attention to Snoop, so I can't say much about that game, but from my review of his ISO of AM/PM, he got a lot angrier and emotional in C9++ than he did in AM/PM.

@SB: I hope you realize that at the point I stopped paying attention to this game the only thing that was really happening was BBM-Manix-Prims fight. What I had specifically asked was for people's thoughts on Manix, BBM, and Prims, since they had done enough for people to form some opinion on. I agree I didn't really say much and I should've stated what I thought about the aforementioned three myself, but if I feel that Prims, BBM, and Manix are reading town right now for reasons and nothing else really happened before I left, what exactly do you want me to do to scum hunt?

Zell: Says he's getting town reads from Prims and Manix, but I don't really agree with his reasoning (or completely understand it).

I feel that it's more town for people to try to pick out the easiest scum than it is scum for scum to pick out the easiest town; it's more likely that town would go for an easy scum target at the start than it is for scum to go after town they feel they could easily lynch in the beginning.

That's not necessarily true. Scum can pick out and go for an "easy mislynch target" as well. Why would they not? Also, by "it's more town to try to pick out the easiest scum" what do you mean by that? How would town know who is the "easiest scum" when townies don't know anyone's alignment except their own, unless you mean that they just go for who they think is scum?

Grassbridger made sense with his Polydeuces' explanation, then all it took was kirsche's post about emotion to realize that BBM is not asking questions and this is vote-worthy, and this is after reading him as null JUST ONE POST EARLIER. Not very happy that it then only took SB's post to make him say "I'll recrunch ISOs".

This part is also directed at kirsche, but why is BBM being emotional scummy? I don't completely subscribe to eclipse's "emotion is a null tell" because I've seen people use it for AtE, but if you find the emotion scummy, do you think he's just getting mad or trying to AtE or what? Why is he scum and not just really frustrated townie? I'm one of those people who believes that saying "this is too much emotion for town" is stupid. You can't expect other people's emotions to work to your expectations.

Page 7

I took Poly's vote on me for "not having any reads" as an RVS joke.

Grassbridger then unvotes BBM and votes Eurykins after one post that Eury made. This feels like an OMGUS, honestly. Was her post on you REALLY that bad that now she's your greatest scum read?

I love how Polydeuces expects me to contribute while asleep. Also, what is "standard kirsche play"? Being "dickish" doesn't mean you're scum, either, nor do we lynch people simply for inactivity.

Page 8:

kirsche, certain people get more annoyed than certain people. And the "scum get more annoyed than town" isn't always true.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

I don't like how you can be persuaded so easily with just one person on your opinions. BBM went from null to most scummy after kirsche's post. BBM became okay after SB's post. Eurykins is now your biggest suspect after she maintained her case on you. I don't like this behavior.

Also not a big fan of Polydeuces either. His lynch priority reasons (the two inactive people being second for being inactive) and Eury for "being dickish" is terrible, in addition to persistent "Snoop" logic. (And don't call BBM stupid, seriously, is this really going to make him any more likely to post?)

[Prims]

boron are you mafia :(

[Sunwoo]

Nope

[Prims]

ok but my visceral reaction to your post was "since when does town!boron format huge d1 walls of text like this"

Content-wise it's OK but what's the scum intent in Grass listening to other people? Convincing and being convinced is a part of town discussion. Do you think that he is avoiding responsibility by agreeing with other people? imo it just looks like he's reconsidering reads as people post, which doesn't make me lean one way or the other on him.

[Zkirsche]

Boron I have said multiple times that it's made worse by the fact that it's BBM.

[eclipse]

(sub speaking)

Shmobum's been on, and was last active about an hour ago. I think force-subbing him shouldn't be an issue. Mei hasn't been on since Friday.

(sub will shut up now)

[Sunwoo]

ok but my visceral reaction to your post was "since when does town!boron format huge d1 walls of text like this"

Lol

Content-wise it's OK but what's the scum intent in Grass listening to other people? Convincing and being convinced is a part of town discussion. Do you think that he is avoiding responsibility by agreeing with other people? imo it just looks like he's reconsidering reads as people post, which doesn't make me lean one way or the other on him.

It's not necessarily that he's listening to other people, but it feels like he's being persuaded too easily by other people, which gives me the impression that he doesn't have strong convictions of his own. I think it particularly bugs me that he stated that BBM was null to him, then kirsche comes in with a vote on BBM, and then suddenly Grass notices that BBM "isn't asking questions" and that's worse than whatever Poly's doing. And when SB says "this is a stupid reason to find him scummy, I've seen him ask questions and it's bad meta" he rereads and BBM's back to null.

I especially don't like the timing of the vote on Eurykins and am questioning how she became the worst after one post.

@kirsche: Why does the fact that it's BBM make it so much worse?

[Grace]

I am awake and i have skimmed the thread

post incoming

[BBM]

Okay, first off, sorry guys. I blew up more than I should have. That being said, things like this:

Ok scum go cool off, in the meantime we'll lynch you.

really don't help because the smug douchebag tone in this almost made me lose my cool again. Say I'm scummy if you want, but don't be a dick about it.

Anyways compiling stuff gimme a bit.

[Grace]

god I don't want to wall, so you get this as I go

In fact considering the vote on me here was originally because I was trying too hard to emulate my town meta of townreading people,

actually, not entirely true. do you forget that people also voted you for the bad reaction to my jokepost?

And Manix- you're asking Boron why my play is more like C9++ than AM/PM and Snooping- I ask you, why is my play more like the latter than the former?

You said it yourself (bold mine)

And in fact in AM/PM I was found suspicious early on N0 because I was trying NOT to townread people, and then the rest of the case after that was based on reactions.

you're reacting in a way that happened exactly in AM/PM; getting early suspicion on you and then reacting in a way which seems overdefensive and not townie. the excessive emotion itself is null; i'd have to look into it further (/effort)

And seriously, why the hell would anyone think that me buddying up to Manix is going to make him not find me scummy? He's found me scummy in every single one of the last games that I can remember where he was town- Masquerade, Group, C9++, Folgore Rangers, 3/4 times of which I was town.

mmm past games. you realize BBM that I haven't played a game with you for quite a while, and your playstyle has changed and mine could have as well. trying to meta read someone can be potentially flawed because of that.

and also yes, the whole "buddy buddy" is something that you do to me as ~all alignments~, so I suppose that not a huge tell. but combined with the overdefensiveness, it looks more like scum!BBM than town!BBM.

BBM's last post feels like he's overreacting but it feels more like he's annoyed before being defensive about himself. I feel his rage is actually kind of townie, checking back in his other posts, and his scumhunting doesn't really feel forced to me.

would like you to explain each part of this post (why is the rage townie, forced scumhunting)

i've explained my end of the reaction part, and i don't have an opinion on his actual scumhunting because it keeps flopping in my brain. part of me looks at it and agrees but the other half feels like he's bs'ing some reads

this post by grass also irks me, but i can't put my finger on exactly why. if I wanted to try, i'd say that this post is based around semantics too much? something like that

[Grace]

right now he seems to be playing like a quieter version of his Snoop self, and he flipped scum then, so I'm getting a scumread on him right now.

so, meta. can you explain why Refa is playing like Snooping!Refa over anything else? explain to me why he's scummy, without using a general blanket statement.

(bold mine)

Refa (Quieter Snoop!Refa = still scum) > Shmomei (need more from either of them to move them down) > Boron (if BBM gets lynched + flips scum, otherwise she's town IMO) > Eury (seems really dickish right now)

so you want to lynch the people that are inactive? if anything, get a theoretical vig to vig them during the night if their playerslots don't produce adequate content. you never lynch anyone who hasn't even posted, they're just lurking scumbags.

boron's wall was too hard for me to focus on and respond to must be scum

but i don't think I ever got a response for this post; re the argument swapping. why did it happen?

[Grace]

i need a break, writing mafuia posts after waking up is hurd

going 2 play tf2 for a bit

[BBM]

Firstly, I want Prims/Manix/Kirsche to take into account the games where I was town and displayed very similar behaviour, such as C9++ or going further back, Trainwreck. If you're going to apply meta, don't apply it selectively to the games where I got mad and offended as scum and completely leave out the games where I got mad and offended as town.

Nextly, Kirsche finding the order in which I posted things scummy is ??? even if he didn't take the timestamps into account. My wall took a while to write up and I saw Grass's response, but didn't want to make my post even longer, so I talked about Grass in the next post. Even disregarding that, considering I was voting Grass over SB, then I don't understand what the point of saying that my reasoning for finding SB suspicious is weaker than my reasoning for finding Grass suspicious. And seriously, this: "Also, the way he made those posts looks like: "Man SB is really bad" *realises he forgot about GB* "Oh but GB is still worse because -reasons-"." is the epitome of pre-judging someone as scum. He can't seriously believe that only scum would talk about a secondary read before a primary one.

Anyways I changed my mind about SB. I remember in C9++ when I was getting wagoned for similar reasons he mentioned once or twice that he thought the reasons for lynching me were bad and that he thought I was town, but then left it at that and made no attempts to actually defend me from the lynch. Here SB's making a clear attempt to actually prevent me from being lynched instead of just trying to get cred from not being on my wagon.

I don't get why Poly has Boron in his list of scumreads and not me, if the entire reason for finding Boron suspicious is if I'm scum. He even says that if I'm not scum neither is she, so having only one of us in that list doesn't make much sense to me.

Grass is meh atm. Kind of agree with Kirsche's assessment of his Eury vote being an OMGUS.

I'm not liking Prims much right now. He keeps pressing me for not having STRONG SCUMREADS even though his only one is against me. Considering I obviously can't find myself scummy, if Prims was in my shoes, what scumreads would he have? Nobody. His Eury read is based on posts after I left the thread to cool off. Additionally, he says Boron's content in her large wall is okay, but doesn't comment at all on her mention of C9++, or SB's mention of C9++. He just responds to the portion of the defence that's about me outing townreads, and not the portion about me having gotten similarly angry as town in the past. This is worse from him than from Kirsche because Kirsche hasn't really played in a game with me where I got wagoned majorly for what I perceived were shitty reasons as town- Prims has. He should be aware that I can get equally offended as town. I don't like the characterization of my Grass vote either- "Poly could be town" is a gross oversimplification of what I said. I said that elaborate logic on his part isn't a scumtell and Grass's attempts to make it out to be were grasping.

@Manix- point to where anyone other than you said my reaction to your jokepost was scummy. Neither Prims nor Kirsche said anything about it at all. And again, C9++ was also based on reactions to people finding me scummy for townreading you early for no reason. I don't think my meta read on you is flawed. Your scum games (SFMM3, Spellcard) weren't that long ago; I don't think the meta's changed since then. And I was also modding in Fakeclaim.

[BBM]

Oh yeah, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims. This isn't moving as long as he meta scumreads me without acknowledging C9++.

[Sunwoo]

boron's wall was too hard for me to focus on and respond to must be scum

but i don't think I ever got a response for this post; re the argument swapping. why did it happen?

@Manix: I think BBM is playing like his C9++ self because after stating a random townread on you in the beginning of the game, he got defensive and angry/emotional when he started getting a lot of heat over it, digging himself into a hole as a result. In D2 before he got lynched he spent pretty much the entire phase defending himself and trying to save himself by comparing actions and behavior people wanted him lynched over to what other people were doing. I didn't pay close attention to Snoop, so I can't say much about that game, but from my review of his ISO of AM/PM, he got a lot angrier and emotional in C9++ than he did in AM/PM.

Seriously, Manix? ;/

I found BBM scummy in C9++ for most of the game and was wrong. I find that his play right now is more like C9++ than AM/PM, where he was scum. Therefore, while I can see why you and Prims think he's scummy, I didn't think he was scum at that point in this game and still am not convinced he is.

[Prims]

@BBM: I can't really explain it beyond "your tone just seemed different in C9++"

Also, C9++ was in response to a D2 wagon, not an ED1 wagon. ED1 wagons dissipate fairly quickly and don't require huge paragraphs of defense.

Lack of scumhunting is less about quantity of reads and more about the lack of effort put into getting any early on.

[BBM]

I was wagoned on ED1 as well; the only reason I wasn't lynched D1 is because my counterwagon claimed Jailer and got CCed.

[Grassbridger]

##Vote: Grassbridger

I don't like how you can be persuaded so easily with just one person on your opinions. BBM went from null to most scummy after kirsche's post. BBM became okay after SB's post. Eurykins is now your biggest suspect after she maintained her case on you. I don't like this behavior.

hey Boron remember that time in Fakeclaim Mafia I switched my vote to you because I thought I'd found something incredibly scummy, then you called me an idiot and you were right and I unvoted you in the next post? Yeah it's exactly like that.

I didn't respond to Eury's initial vote because there's not much I can say about "bad vibes" and I assumed it was a weak read that would get replaced with something more substantial. Well, the more substantial thing (still on me, but that's irrelevant) was bad and the follow-up sounded super scummy.

And yeah my vote is on someone who voted me first, but I don't really see how it's an OMGUS. It's not like I have no reasoning.

this post by gr ass also irks me, but i can't put my finger on exactly why. if I wanted to try, i'd say that this post is based around semantics too much? something like that

This is the second time you've said that about one of my posts... also it's not at all based around semantics. There's nothing semantic about that post.

[Prims]

I skimmed your ISOs from C9++ / AMPM / Snooping. In C9++, you were aggressively trying to get information from people and find scum even while being attacked. In the other two, your posts were spent replying to people. Best way I can explain it is that here your scumhunting feels like an afterthought and you care more about avoiding the lynch, which is scummy behavior regardless of meta. Your post where you voted me is a start but your main point paints my vote as just being on you because you're mad, which isn't true.

[BBM]

The above post was in reference to C9++ btw

@BBM: I can't really explain it beyond "your tone just seemed different in C9++"

Also, C9++ was in response to a D2 wagon, not an ED1 wagon. ED1 wagons dissipate fairly quickly and don't require huge paragraphs of defense.

Lack of scumhunting is less about quantity of reads and more about the lack of effort put into getting any early on.

Except let's see when you first asked me if I had any other scumreads: #43, at the beginning of the third page. At this point, almost everything was RVS and your effort in trying to find scumreads on people other than me was one question to Poly in #28, and there wasn't a point in me saying the exact same thing as you to the exact same person, though I did say something similar to Trollstool in #46. But the point is, what scumreads was I supposed to have at this point? Saying I'm scummy for choosing to defend myself over pestering people to post content is super unreasonable. Then when you said I wasn't putting scumhunting effort in the second time, I had. Maybe my vote on Grass wasn't the best, but it was the best I had at the time, and it's untrue that I haven't been putting in effort into finding reads, especially as I consider townreads to be almost as important as scumreads. And you also ignored what I had to say about SB.

Anyways bbl.

[BBM]

I skimmed your ISOs from C9++ / AMPM / Snooping. In C9++, you were aggressively trying to get information from people and find scum even while being attacked. In the other two, your posts were spent replying to people. Best way I can explain it is that here your scumhunting feels like an afterthought and you care more about avoiding the lynch, which is scummy behavior regardless of meta. Your post where you voted me is a start but your main point paints my vote as just being on you because you're mad, which isn't true.

Except it is! Offer me a reason that's not covered by this:

1. I'm getting mad and overreacting like I did in C9++.

2. I'm not making scumhunting effort.

Me being mad isn't your only point but it is your main point.