[The Reason for the Problems With Awakening]

Well, thats not how stochastics and probability theory works, but I'm not here to discuss this specific topic.

About AI behaviour: I did read some comments about the enemy units not taking bait as easily as they did in the past, instead waiting for the player to overextend more, which enables the AI to attack with multiple units at once. isn't that progress?

[The Reason for the Problems With Awakening]

What I'm saying is that overall, more level ups result in a much more homogenous unit over the course of the game.

The chances of having 30% below average speed growth is much less likely after having 80 level ups than it is to have after 20 level ups.

[The Reason for the Problems With Awakening]

You have no right to complain about having the option to turn off animations. It's not like the renders just got scrapped and aren't available for you to see whenever you wish.

I do not need the game to show me what happens because I calculate dozens of different scenarios for each encounter before it actually happens and choose the best one, sometimes that takes at least a minute for me. When I send my unit, it will fulfill it's purpose, whether I watch it or not.

This doesn't mean that I will ever get tired of my Assassin Lucina chopping somebody up with Sol and 70% crit (I mean Sol the weapon, gorgeous sword texture by the way).

You can tell the game which specific unit you want to watch do battle. This is a great feature, not a flaw.

Whenever I play some old RPG, I wish I didn't have to wait for the endless "encounter engages" transition to end (Legend of Dragoon for example). Depending on the game, these transitions might soak up hours of time just by themselves without accomplishing anything besides stall for time for the hardware to load.

We're past those times (thank <insert your prefered diety>)

Stats got bloated because people complained about too random unit growth patterns. All I hear as a onlooker is "oh god my roy ended up with X Str at lv 20", now that it got resolved (somewhat) people are complaining about it? Give me a break.

I can't compare plot developments, writing and story since I lack a comparative example.

[The Reason for the Problems With Awakening]

Say'ri mentioned that people are really scared of the volcano, so bandits might have stored them on top of it, as a safe location, while they're off to steal someplace else.

The bandits didn't expect the place to become a battlefield, so they are forced to abandon their loot.

I'm pretty sure the writers at nintendo can do better than what I just made up, hehe.

[The Reason for the Problems With Awakening]

Am I the only one who appreciates the odd thief wandering about the map and stealing the contents of treasure chests? I think that's a very nice touch.

Was that included in older titles of the franchise as well, in this or a similiar form?

[The Reason for the Problems With Awakening]

I never played any FE besides Awakening (I wouldn't really count the 7th one, which I recently picked up, at which I am currently sitting at chapter 2)

Personally, there are a few things I do not like about awakening.

• One of them is the fact that the game has many useful, cool looking and practical weapons, most of which one is unable to use because it's literally impossible to reliably get your hands on them without using spotpass.
  
• Weapons like the Levin Sword, Shockstick and Bolt Axe have what seems to be arbitrary rank requirements. Levin/stick have C rank, why is the Bolt axe on B? By the time I have a unit with high magic and B rank axes, it doesn't matter anymore which weapon I use. Hand axes come at C and are much cheaper and more readily available.
  Their rarity makes them too awesome to use, which will lead to nobody using them.
  I wish there were D rank, or even E rank equivalents of these magic based weapons (BESIDES TOMES). Give them the same might as their physical counterparts, and suddenly you can increase resistance bases/growths on every single character which is lacking it. Same with defense.
  
• Why does the Shockstick have only a range of 1? I'm almost certain this is an oversight in game design.
  
• I never understood the reason why the males were specialized in defense, while female characters are good in resistance.
  [spoiler=tanget on weapon ranks]Once I made calculations for the weapon rank bonuses, thinking that the Brave Sword was statistically superior to any other weapon, for no apparent reason. I came to the conclusion that the weapon rank bonuses are very well balanced, so clearly somebody put a lot of effort into it.

• Specific shops sell only a couple of items. Not good game design in my opinion, especially since the Risen skirmishes spawn randomly and can screw you over big time. Mostly a concern of higher difficulty levels.
  Shops which unlock new items should share their assortment with other merchants (the old man shopkeeper, not Anna). That's what happens in real life as well.
  
• About game mechanics: Increasing returns on defensive stats is absolutely horrible game design, so much that even Luna+ is only a band-aid against it. I say that as person who played wow for half a decade, most of it as a tank.
  
• Luna should be skill*2%, chance to ignore 25% of def/res, Sol should be skill*2% to heal for 25%, Aether should be skill% with these changes in mind.
  
• The whole formula of damage taken needs to be re-configured. Make spellcasters have 10-30% damage reduction, fight profficient classes 30-50% and tank classes 50-70% damage reduction, give tanks a skill they can use to raise defensive capabilities.
  Call it "self-rally-res/def" or w/e, I don't care.
  Right now there is no reason to play anything but Dark Mages/Sorcerers (on anything that's not Lunatic+) because they are absolutely broken, with high HP and defense growth and vengeance on top of it.
  
• Delete Nosferatu.

[Lunatic+ playlog/guide/walkthrough - COMPLETED]

Went with Assassin to see how viable dodge tanking is with capped speed (52), she is at 49 right now. Also curious about Aether+Sol at ~50 skill.

Theoretically, the chance of attacking without a skill triggering is 37.5%, which isn't so bad. She has Bow Breaker against the super precise bows in endgame, everything else I have to cross my fingers for.

[spoiler=This is her post chapter 20]

[Lunatic+ playlog/guide/walkthrough - COMPLETED]

Well he doesn't even care about counter anymore, it's a bit disturbing.

[Lunatic+ playlog/guide/walkthrough - COMPLETED]

So you want me to make her a sniper instead?

[Lunatic+ playlog/guide/walkthrough - COMPLETED]

Unless something comes up, I'll probably end up making Lucina an Assassin. Her current stats (were she to be reclassed at lv 18, right now) would be:

77 hp, 40 Str, 14 mag, 44 Skl, 49 Spd, 48 Lck, 30 Def, 22 Res. I would give her Sol (the sword) and go to town. (unbreakable thanks to armsthrift)

The low defense already got mentioned, but I hope Sol can make that work out somehow, and I'd like to keep both, bows as well as Swords.

Of course I could re-class her into a lv 1 Bow Knight, but that's a bit boring in my opinion.

What do you think?

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

I've got nothing to add.

I knew you might be busy, so I waited 24 hours, at which point I assumed the post was missed because it was burried.

Thanks for the response! o/

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

That feeling when somebody ignores your post but answers to others. :(

[Lunatic+ playlog/guide/walkthrough - COMPLETED]

My run is updated to chapter 20.

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

You missed the qualifier of "raw stats alone", which means I'm ignoring EVERYTHING else, whether it be Vaike's weapon levels, Chrom's skills, supports, etc.

Very well. Let's factorise everything I said unnecessarily and round it down to:

"Donnel has slightly better stats as 10/1 Fighter compared to Vaike, and 10/1 Mercenary to Chrom."

This is a nice little statement I can wholeheartedly agree with.

I should have noticed the ignore in the statement, it was the most important word, sorry.

Yeah, Second Seal access is a pain, and that usually goes elsewhere. If you went with this angle, I think you'd be a bit more successful.

I mention the second seal for the third time now, therefor that second part of the sentence should be rewritten to "You went this angle, I think you're a bit more successful." (whatever that means. Probably in conveying my message? I dunno exactly)

I did underline and bold the parts where "fighter donnel", "fighter vaike" and "lord chrom", "mercenary donnel" are mentioned. I thought that was enough hint towards the second seal, I honestly did.

It can go. . .well, anywhere. Like on Stahl or something. Kill experience is a one-time thing, but both Donnel and Vaike are perfectly capable of chipping (Chrom, not so much).

I think it's ridiculous how you claim that Donnel has the same ability to chip as Vaike, while Chrom can't do it. Donnel as 10/1 Mercenary has 2.35 average strength more than Chrom and uses a Bronze Axe, while Chrom has Falchion, which is really good in chapter 5, which happens almost immediately after Donnel's recruitment. Chapter 5 features Wyvern Riders with Axes, the perfect victims for a 10/1 Chrom.

Anyway, thanks for breaking that down~!

I'm doing my best, happy it makes more sense now, really I am happy about that. :)

This is a really cool argument as to why there should've been a fixed mode. I haven't taken a course/really studied statistical distribution (i.e. I'm probably talking out of my ass, and the same applies to any other instances when I try to dissect probability), but 50% has the highest deviance - unfortunately, that's Vaike's Speed (and several other stats on different characters). Ideally, there would be no deviation - realistically, that's not gonna happen. Personal experience shouldn't matter, but it will. If your goal is to educate, you'll have to keep this in mind.

(I will complain about the pegasus starters all day long, but that's because I'm salty - if someone else can turn them into goddesses, more power to them)

I can understand where you're coming from, but unless you can exactly pinpoint how the algorithm determining character growths isn't working as intended (which is impossible without knowing information which should only be available to the game's developers), I'm forced to dismiss this statement as nonrepresentational, but you accept that yourself already so I won't ride on it any longer.

No matter how much you believe rng screws you, there is always some person who gets lucky against impossible odds.

There was a certain lunatic run where many units got deployed and many of them had good growths without exception, in which ownagepuffs commented something along the lines of "most rng blessed run ever?". I can't remember where, and can't find it after looking for it a tiny bit, but it happens.

How in the world did you manage to come to this conclusion?

You were praising Donnel for his reliability while other's got shafted. It forced me to the conclusion to which I came.

I don't think probability works like this. If you have a coin that's weighted to heads 70% of the time, the odds of getting five tails in a row is much lower than a coin with no bias.

Thats how it works. I can asure you that Donnel will have times when he is incredibly unlucky (from a statistical standpoint), same as everyone else.

Even if said coin is weighted to heads 99.99% of the time, some unlucky sob will eventually end up getting five tails back to back.

When I put out all the statements of "X and Donnel get a, b or c growths" this also means that there is no

"Donnel got screwed a little but X got screwed more because s/he is farther away from 100% growth."

That's how their growth rates pan out? Theoretically, it shouldn't happen - realistically, it does. Unfortunately, we're in the realistic world.

We must assume the character growths are as they are, the same way as scientists have to assume that trees do not in fact talk while nobody is listening and stop talking once somebody could potentially hear them. This can get really absurd, so let's stop here.

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

However, I think your methods are counter to your goal. I give other people enough credit to form opinions on their own, so I don't think it's necessary to "protect" them from incorrect information. One jaunt down Lunatic should solve the problem nicely.

This is the mature thing to do, I'll oblige.

I made a mention of all of that - I think you should reread what I quoted, and explain how you derived what's in the quote box above from what I said.

I'll try my best. Here is what you wrote:

Yet the spreadsheet you linked shows that on raw stats alone, Donnel is slightly better at 10/1 mercenary than Chrom is at 10 lord, and completely outclasses a level 10 Vaike as a 10/1 fighter. Granted, 10 Vaike is painful on Lunatic (hence why I don't use him), and 10 Chrom is pretty painful unless it's Chapter 2 or something.

This was my response:

My spreadsheet also doesn't show the need for a Second Seal to get Donnel out of the sh*thole that is villager, as mentioned in post #451.

It also doesn't account for literally wasted weapon experience, as seen in post #447.

It doesn't account for Chrom's Charm, or Vaike's Zeal.

It doesn't account for Lucina's base stats much farther down the line.

You mention 10/1 Donnel as Fighter or Mercenary being slightly better than Vaike or Chrom. This made me think of what 10/1 Vaike/Chrom have that Donnel doesn't have, so I mentioned the lv 10 skills of Lord and Fighter, which are Charm and Zeal.

I mention the hidden stats that higher weapon ranks have, since you get the chance to use better weapons, as well as weapon triangle advantages being magnified.

And of course, he needs a precious second seal just to get to a level that's slightly above other characters' who don't need a second seal, with the same amount of experience. Well Vaike starts at lv 3, so it's less for him.

As for the Lucina part: I'm assuming the EXP that Donnel needs to get to lv 10 would have been distributed to Vaike or Chrom instead, which results in higher base stats for Lucina to inherit.

Does this make sense to you now?

IMO, Donnel's biggest selling point is being less likely to be RNG-screwed (SUMIA AND CORDELIA I AM FUCKING LOOKING AT YOU). With the stats in Lunatic, his bases are awful to the point where it's a waste of time to get him anywhere, and unlike Nowi, he doesn't have a magical item that boosts everything by a non-trivial amount. Thus, I think he's workable in the lower difficulty modes, while someone who has terrible bases and lower growths gets screwed harder (hi Virion).

I already mentioned that I assume equal rights for everyone. That means Donnel gets to keep his great growth rates and the others don't get screwed by RNG.

If you assume other's get RNG screwed, I will assume that Donnel gets RNG screwed as well. His growths are high, but only HP and Luck are guarenteed to increase, everything else has a chance to not increase.

You can't just assume Donnel grows at a standard rate, while everyone else just magically gets screwed over by RNG, making Donnel look better than them in comparison and use that as an argument to claim "Donnel is a more reliable unit."

Anecdotal evidence isn't something you can use here. Donnel is just as susceptible to be screwed over by RNG as everybody else.

There is no "Vaike gets bad growths and Donnel gets decent/good growths."

There is only "Vaike/Donnel get good growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get decent growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get bad growths."

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

Don't. Judge. Full stop. You're not going to get said unspecified person to agree with you if you're hostile to them - people will remember how you made them feel a lot more rather than what you said. You'd best have a VERY good reason to get someone mad at you before employing this.

Already explained in post #473.

I am not trying to get somebody who gets emotional over a game character to agree with me.

My intention is to stop them from contaminating innocent people's opinion. Then again, it's their own fault for listening/agreeing to somebody's claim without sufficient proof, but even if somebody is ignorant, they deserve to learn the truth.

Make no mistake, I'm willing to change my opinion if you provide decisive evidence that Donnel is in fact not a bad unit - not in a vacuum, but in comparison to other characters in the game.

It's not logical to argue from a Lunatic+ perspective if the other person is arguing from a Normal/Hard one. They're two completely different sets of stats.

Correct. Thats why I ask everyone who posts on any difficulty other than Luna+ to mention that, so I can see it. it's in the same post you quoted.

Yet the spreadsheet you linked shows that on raw stats alone, Donnel is slightly better at 10/1 mercenary than Chrom is at 10 lord, and completely outclasses a level 10 Vaike as a 10/1 fighter. Granted, 10 Vaike is painful on Lunatic (hence why I don't use him), and 10 Chrom is pretty painful unless it's Chapter 2 or something. However, it's much better once enemy stats are toned down, a la Normal/Hard - then it becomes a matter of "can I insert a level 10 Chrom here, sans Dual Strike/Charm/sword rank/wyvern-killing sword, and have him be decent?"

I'm also ignoring other important things like supports - is the type of person who uses a growth unit who's less likely to be victim of the RNG going to take multiple support levels/support bonuses into account?

My spreadsheet also doesn't show the need for a Second Seal to get Donnel out of the sh*thole that is villager, as mentioned in post #451.

It also doesn't account for literally wasted weapon experience, as seen in post #447.

It doesn't account for Chrom's Charm, or Vaike's Zeal.

It doesn't account for Lucina's base stats much farther down the line.

Supports can be built on characters besides Donnel. While Donnel spends time building supports with <female unit>, Chrom is spending time to build supports with his future wife. It goes both ways.

I already asked people to notify others of the difficulty they're playing on, mentioned earlier in this post, as well as few pages ago.

This is a matter of motive, and why it's important to consider the other person's viewpoint. You're arguing to ignore it outright, and that will NOT help your stated goal.

(though this is actually the fault of Vaike for having awful bases, but that's another story)

I ask everyone who posts on any difficulty other than Luna+ to mention that, so I can see it. That same plea is written in the very same post you quoted yourself.

Some characters have different stats depending on which difficulty they join the shepherds, I think Cherche is one of them, as well as Henry. There are probably more. Fact is, most characters have the same base stats, regardless of game difficulty.

I was saying that I don't care about arguing for other modes, but now I'm confident that the argument to not apply favoritism but favor equality instead will result in the same conclusion that I (and many others) reached for higher difficulty levels.

Thanks to your posts, I now realize that Donny sucks on all difficulty levels.

[The Lunatic Club]

Use the strategy in this thread: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52170

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

If this is your goal, then try this:

- Don't. Judge. It's great if you need to make people dislike your opinion/dig their heels in against you.

I don't judge without reason. If *you have no scientific proof for claims which can only be proven by science, get out.

"But Donny is so awesome once you invest in him." Is not a valid argument. And thats what most people's opinion arguing for Donnel's greatness comes down to.

*unspecified person

- Ask why. Ask why again. And do it one more time. See what drives that sort of opinion.

-I have been asking why they think he is so great. I have shot down every single claim so far, with pure logic.

- SCOPE. Some people legitimately don't care about harder difficulties, and trying to argue with that is a waste of your time.

I did mention that all I care about is Luna+.

- And. . .concession. Yes, Donnel is near-useless on Lunatic and above, and anyone arguing otherwise should provide their logic. On Normal with Risen skirmishes, he's functional, and if Vaike gives the other guy a gigantic middle finger (hello 50% Speed growth), Donnel is a hell of a lot more attractive. Didn't realize that Vaike was so. . .ugh early on. Then again, I usually don't raise him, because I get the wrong end of his Speed, and it's painful.

When the average character is bad, Donnel is terribad (lunatic or higher)

When the average chatracter is decent, donnel is bad (normal, hard).

I already mentioned that. You have to compare characters on even ground.

We're assuming characters have in fact average growths, thats the only way to compare them. Otherwise it would be possible for one character to be worse/better than itself because it got worse/better growths while all other criteria are equal.

Feel free to bench a unit if it's not having good enough growths, but thats something specific to your own playthrough.

Thanks~!

You're welcome~!

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

My motive is not to stand above others. I'm only of average skill. My motive is to safe the people who are below average skill, who try to become better at the game, from absorbing this untrue information about Donnel, so I argue against it.

I couldn't care less whether people claim they're better than me or not, I don't mind. All I care about is people getting away with wrong claims.

I will correct Chroms growths as well as add mercenary for Donnel as you wish.

Edit: It's the same mistake I made with Donnel's growths. Irysa pointed it out in post #452. She didn't notice Chrom's growths being wrong though, same as me.

Edit2: Vaike was erroneous as well. fixed.

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

Can't say I'm really fond of the animosity (on either side of the fence), but there was definitely something very amusing in that thread: 237 turns for Paralogue 1. XP

You can't blame him though, he is in distraught after coming to realize that the one true god he had been worshipping this whole time is in fact a phony.

Now he ventures forth to find the truth on his own.

The pinnacle of efficiency am I right?

You have to admire the fortitude which drives him to continue this madness.

I'm not talking about capped, just long enough to reclass him to something with bases that don't suck.

My goal is to understand the logic behind why "Donnel is the best" crops up on lower difficulties - the fact that it isn't an isolated incident says something, and it's not "my opinion is superior". If your goal is to change minds, being confrontational about it isn't how to do it - understanding is the first step. If your goal is to figure out someone's motives, I can't see how your arguments help your internal picture of the situation. If your goal is to show off why you're better than someone else. . .arguing about a single character in a niche video game proves very little.

EDIT:

. . .and I thought I was bad with 82 turns in Nah's paralogue.

They see the amazing level ups Donnel has and think he's a beast. They never play higher difficulties because they're too bad for that. That's why you see those kinds of comments.

If they had the farsight and ability to clear higher difficulties, they would see how Donnel isn't such a great unit and ommit posting their opinions, since they also came to realize that they're part of the general consensus now.

I will repost this since you or somebody else might have missed it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dou7N7U7KnOyZr6YBWKmjjt89hM1cZZY22v1kjNWmaY/edit#gid=0

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

The internal level cap for normal is 20, hard has 30 and lunatic has 50. So I have to calculate eight different scenarios?

I already told you in a roundabout way that it's a pain in the a** lol. (and I know what you mean, this is the way I choose to play along)

People apparently don't realize that lunatic exp penalty is active for all units. Conversely, the normal and hard mode experience rules are active for everyone as well.

The implications of "normal mode donnel is better than lunatic Donnel" is countered by the fact that "normal mode random shepherd is better than normal mode Donnel."

The Fir Coat on gfaqs who is making a playlog of his L+ run with Donnel as his focus after I destroyed him in an argument (calling it a debate would be an insult to all debates ever held) not unlike the one we have in this very thread.

Reading that playlog might make you feel somehing akin to amusement or entertainment, if you lower yourself to the niveau of that board.

Edit: spelling

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

This is pure conjecture on my part without any proof:

I'd assume that a unit with internal of lv 1 needs "X" raw experience (without taking into account your own/enemy levels) to get to lv 10.

The same unit with a total level of ((4 cumulative level from reclassing at lv 10)+1(displayed level))=5, would get to around lv 7 or 8 after their reclass.

I'd assume a unit at lv 10 getting "X" experience would reach lv 15 or 16. Again, zero proof.

Feel free to calculate it yourself if you want. I'm interested, but not interested enough to put effort into it, surely you can empathize with that notion, eclipse.

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

. . .why does it matter that this person thinks that Donnel isn't the worst? Like, I reserve that kind of judgment for those who I think are attempting to incite a riot with an unpopular opinion (and I do have a method to my madness), and I don't think this is happening here.

However, the math would be interesting, but for experience gain. I know he gets a lot of experience per kill, but is it that much more than everyone else?

I have as much problems with people who believe Donnel is not the worst as I have with people who believe in god, none.

The issue here is that they claim something without proof, and expect others to believe it.

I went out of my way to show them how foolish that kind of perspective is by appealing to their emotions taking the same approach to the subject as they do.

After that happened they finally brought up pertinent arguments.

From there on, the discussion evolved into something more than an utter waste of time became worthwhile to pursue in a scientific sense.

I won't calculate average experience gains, because that formula involves the units as well as the enemies level.

I would have to develop two different runs, each one using/not using Donnel, and track every single round of combat between any unit whatsoever to fabricate something useful.

Calculating average stats at certain thresholds is easy. Scripting every single round of combat according to your wishes is improbable in regards to being forced to reset each time your unit accidenally crits or misses an enemy for every single enemy unit in the whole game, twice.

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

I’m going to just let the remarks stand for posterity, or until discussion becomes more genuinely interesting, as I have little enough time to argue positions I actually like. >_>

I don't know which remarks you mean, maybe I'm just tired. Does this mean you want to leave the debate just a few hours after we* finally burried the hatchet? It just got good. :(

Edit: We as in, everyone in this thread

[Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?]

I looked at Smash Fanatic's post. I don't know what kind of "tier list" they are refering to, but I never used Panne in any of my playthroughs, same with Lon'qu.

I have a single one where I trained everyone, it's lunatic difficulty. Thats the one I used to experiment with and learn more about the game (and beat tson secret path).

Personally, I'm talking about L+ classic no risen skirmish, no dlc. Any other mode isn't really worth having such an elaborate discussion over.

Of course thats my opinion, feel free to talk about normal-lunatic, but please make note of it.

They're comparing Fighter Donnel to Wyvern Rider Panne/Lon'qu. And Hero Donnel with Wyvern Lord Panne/Lon'qu, which is fine. Donnel wins by stats, the other two by utility.

I argue that the renown second seal is best used on Avatar, since he/she is hitting lv 20 really fast, which makes it a necessity to use the second seal on her, lest one falls behind by wasting exp on a capped character.