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i'm not sure you guys will believe this but I lost my post a second time so I'm super mad and lost a ton of detail and after writing the same thing for the third time I basically stopped caring about grammar don't think michelaar was being overdefensive. he is being lazy but seems more lazytown. why would scum admit to being experienced when he'd get underestimated if everyone thought he was new? @mack- surviving is only one part of the game. by not giving reasons you're not engaging your scumreads, so you lower the chance of you being correct, and you also lower the chance of actually convincing anybody. there are way more town than scum, so if you correctly figure out one scum, get them lynched, and then get nightkilled, that's a good trade for town. @junko- my scumread on Proto is stronger than anything else I have but it's an ED1 vote; it's obviously not that strong. he did only call me "unusual", but the context implies negative unusual. nothing wrong with pressure vote ED1 but why do it when there's a better option available (IMO)? I think you guys are vastly overestimating the depth of the reason I voted for Prims lol, maybe because I've written a ton trying to explain my logic in terms of EARLY DAY 1 MAFIA THEORY when 90% of the vote was just me trying to get something going. both my initial Prims vote and me keeping the vote after (basically two separate votes) were because I thought it was better than a random jokevote. i still think the second thing with him thinking Refa was maybe 5% likely to be scum because of the picture but then only jokevoting him instead of trying to get a response is weird but I don't really see what more I'm going to get at this point. in general there's no point to saying I'm only 10% confident in a vote in RVS/just-after-RVS. That should be given, if anyone is actually confident <24h into the game they're probably scum faking it. posting this now before I lose the post again and ask for a sub on the spot but I have more thoughts

omg fuck this forum software I clicked on the notification of Refa's new post thinking it would load the post without reloading the page but I lost a post I'd been working on for like 30 minutes

Oboro-Garasu is Proto right

sorry guys I totally forgot I was playing in a mafia game but it's all good ##Unvote, ##Vote: Oboro-Garasu I would still like Prims to give me an answer as to what reaction he was expecting from Refa, but this is a better vote for now. IMO Proto had better reasons to vote me and the Michelaar vote is in comparison just kind of a pressure vote because he didn't give reactions. it just feels sort of like a lazy way to push a new player jokevotes don't require any reaction other than a joke. the quality of reactions they return is low because everybody, from the person being voted to the other people in the thread, know they're a joke. everyone engages in them even though they're relatively useless so it's normally not alignment-indicative, but I expect better from Prims. also fwiw it's different than the Shin vote in Revival bc the Shin vote is worded less like a joke than the Refa one is, and the justification there (Shin knowing the # of scum) is more likely to be an actual scumslip than "Refa is scum wifoming with pictures in RVS"

Prims doesn't ~have~ to stack his vote, but that's what he normally does because he's one of the people who actively tries to create a situation to break out of RVS, as opposed to passively jokevoting until someone else breaks it. Stacking votes is one of the best ways to get reactions, either from the person against whom votes are being stacked, or by some third party objecting against the wagon, or from if/how more people jump on the wagon. So at first I voted him because he was jokevoting instead of following this philosophy. His initial response made me think he'd just gotten kind of lazy and had thought of a specific joke he wanted to make before the game started. But his follow up about there potentially being an alignment-related reason behind Refa's picture is confusing because in that case, emphasizing that would have been way more likely to get a good reaction than just playing it off as a joke, which was unlikely to get anything.

I'm confused because both the timing and the tone of your vote indicates a joke, and Refa isn't new enough that he's going to overreact to a jokevote. what would a scummy reaction have looked like?

I thought you just wanted to make a joke, but this kind of implies that you actually initially thought that Refa's picture was (very slightly) alignment indicative?

That too- there are a lot of reasons other than a noble desire to protect the citizenry for which people join the police force. At the end of the day, they get paid an average income and get good benefits and a pension and all that stuff. That attracts a lot of people whose academic options aren't great. Also, maybe... you shouldn't use statistics given by cops given they aren't neutral? (FBI are cops too) I would also like a source for that statement because I'm guessing there's some wonky stuff going on there that doesn't account for the fact that there are 1 million cops and 40 million black people. 1) jesus christ stop looking at this as a war. the police are there to protect people, not go to war with them. if you think there's a war, then something is fucking wrong. 2) 135 officers died on the job in 2016, whereas there were 963 fatal shootings by the police. That includes all races and innocent and guilty people- but yes, I definitely see how cops are losing the "war".

what the fuck how is what I said equal to me denying cops basic liberties? how did I say that cops are immoral? having the right to shoot another person is not a basic liberty! it's a right we give to police officers under the assumption that they will use it judiciously and only when necessary. people are protesting the fact that as tryhard just noted, they are overly trigger-happy and are very quick to shoot and ask questions later, as opposed to trying other things first. where are the stories of police getting shot in the middle of trying to de-escalate a situation? where's the evidence that if their first instinct was not to shoot, more of them would die? nobody thinks that cops are generally speaking immoral- they don't trust cops because as these situations show- cops don't trust other people, particularly black people. they also think that cops believe that it's okay to err on the side of being trigger-happy, again particularly with black people. people want to hold cops accountable for shooting people who weren't guilty because it would lead them to be less trigger-happy. you said that you don't believe society should accept accidental shootings. what exactly are you doing by saying that life sucks and there's nothing to be done to prevent the wrongful shootings of those people?

question to you lushen- rather than simply telling black people not to be stupid.... maybe we should train police officers so that they don't "legitimately believe they are about to be shot" when a black person makes sudden movements? is that a reasonable request for black people to have? the legal system operates on a belief that everybody has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. by saying that cops who wrongfully believe they are about to be shot should still have the right to shoot someone who has done nothing wrong simply based on the fact that it is more statistically likely they are guilty*, you are overriding the foundation of how justice is administered. Nobody denies that cops lay down their life. That doesn't mean their life becomes more important than the lives of other people. *All we have are statistics for who gets arrested more often, which isn't the same as who actually commits more crimes. It's been shown that this is self-perpetuating- black people get pulled over/questioned/etc more, making it more likely that they get arrested in situations where other races wouldn't.

Lushen, I also studied engineering, and if you've spent 4+ years studying engineering and any time in the workplace and still believe that women have it easier than men in engineering, there is nothing I or anybody can say to change your mind. The only way you could have come to such an opinion if you've heard about or seen anything of the culture both in universities and in the workplace, particularly Silicon Valley, is if you live in a bubble of such extreme privilege that no online argument could possibly convince you. The response to the Damore memo has been so fierce that for you to be repeating similar arguments must mean you haven't read a single article debunking it, which is a failing on your part as a engineer to understand the context you're operating in. also fwiw I said "probably" for a reason, to indicate that I was talking about averages and likelihoods and not something that applied for every single male in the world. Women are better applicants than men because they get better marks in high school. They comprise something like 70% of valedictorians I believe. EDIT: Also, Lushen, can you try to understand the concept that people who don't act 100% logically and rationally when confronted by police do not deserve to get shot at? That's the overarching point- many cops take anything out of the ordinary done by black people as a sign of guilt, whereas they are much more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to others.

I was gonna ask why that's relevant and then I remembered this mafia is based on heroes

##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims why aren't you stacking votes?

Just a reminder that men, not minorities, benefit most from academic selection rules at many private colleges/universities, which are allowed to discriminate based on gender. Women on average are better applicants than men, but splits are still roughly 50/50 when it should be closer to 60/40 in favour of women, which is what is the case at public colleges. In comparison, rates of black people at elite universities have stayed mostly the same since affirmative action rules were introduced, with a small uptick in hispanic enrollment. But the main reason white enrollment has fallen is because of growth in Asian enrollment. I'm comparing two different quantities there, but whenever you rail against affirmative action helping minorities get spots, remember that you probably had an easier time getting in because you were a dude, and there wasn't even a law requiring it. EDIT: totally forgot about legacy preferences! 20-30% admission rate for legacy students at Ivy League schools vs <10% for everyone else. Gee I wonder what the race breakdown in those legacy admissions is???

##Vote: Junko seems scummy

reporting for duty

but then I'll miss RVS and that's worse

any day is mostly fine but Friday night isn't the best time because I'm trying to develop a life

addiction is for life I'll join if the game doesn't fill up by the end of the weekend, but if it does just count me as a sub

just clicking on this thread was a bad idea (this isn't an in, but also not an out)

it's very weird that this game had vanillas and also numbers backup dayvig/tree stump but thanks for hosting an noc game marf

It is disrespectful, but it's on the player to better manage their time, and not sign up if they can't. I agree that players should prioritize other games where they're part of a team bound by wincon, but again it's ultimately up to them. And just because there's no formal bond doesn't mean that people don't care about the outcome just as much and won't care if someone they're teaming with is dogging it.

I don't think there's a problem with how EiMM has evolved from silly filler to a serious multifaction-esque game. I don't like it personally but that's fine. It's pretty clear that the majority of people active in the mafia forum are more interested in this form of EiMM than traditional NOC or even traditional OC. We'll see how signups for Rein's game go, but Marth's game is the first NOC game in about a year I think, and it took a lot of planning and people coming out of pseudo-retirement to fill it. I don't know everything that happened in this game specifically but at least some of it is going to happen in any game that people care about and other parts seem like a really unfortunate one-time event that won't happen again. As Marth alluded to, putting in only one winner would remove a core part of what people enjoy about it- making their own teams. Maybe you could run it as a multifaction where people get to choose their teams when they sign up? As for having a queue for it- sure that's probably a good way to formalize it, but the community is kind of doing it by themselves anyways? Not like there are multiple EiMMs running at the same time. Not really sure what the queue would accomplish. I know Boron and Prims are annoyed that it interfered with Marth's game, but it would be on a different queue so it would still run simultaneously as any other small NOC games (and we don't have the playerbase to fill a large). Putting them on the same queue would actually hurt the chances of another NOC occurring because NOCs are probably only going to be able to fill at specific times by coordinating them as special events.

Elie since there are 30 minutes left in the phase I would rather you give opinions than excuses

Marth is hosting the game... I don't think anybody is voting Gaius for being inactive or lack of content either. It's not that I disagree with his content; I dislike how he's presented it. He was just pushing people voting for you without committing to defending you.