BBM
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Posts posted by BBM
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i know i didn't directly analyze a lot of his good posts but a lot of his good posts are really just "here are reasons for why all these people are town", with some sprinkles of athena suspicion thrown in on d1. they look good individually because the reasons behind those opinions are good, but then you put everything together and realize that that's really all his play is. i don't actually think he looks like demotivated scum so much as scum who just can't fabricate reads and is voteparking.
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3 hours ago, Refa said:
Don't like how Junk doesn't update his read on ZKirsche here. He mentions that Eclipse slightly bothers him but like...it seems to be based more on disagreements than actually findint Eclipse scummy. Feels like Junk misreps Athena's reason for unvoting Satsuma here. He said he couldn't get anything else out of the vote even though he was still unsatisfied with the slot, which is fine to me. Also don't like how his defense to tunneling ZKirsche is "Eclipse slightly bothered me!". Also he still didn't update his vote on Kirsche! I feel like most of Junk's thoughts are reactionary or just other peoples' thoughts. This post bothers me on gut. He dismisses ZKirsche's later content as null and mentions that Page 18 just reaffirms his reads, even though ZKirsche's later content should be far more telling to his alignment. I already commented on his wallpost here but tl,dr; his read on me is a mess where he's ascribing scum intent to actions where there aren't any. He's still harping on Kirsche for his ED1 content and not updating his read significantly (yes, he touches on Kirsche's vote on Bartozio but nothing else). To me, this reads as him throwing a bunch of individual reads on players but not trying to understand these reads in the greater context.
man you guys suck you made me think "bbm level reading skills" at myself before i went back and confirmed that i did not misread
regardless if you misspoke there originally and what you meant was that you don't agree with the case anymore- i don't really think it's fair to scumread him for having a read different than yours unless you think that there's scum intent behind the vote.
oh yeah @RADicate i don't think it makes much sense for you to focus on peoples cases on Junko. there isn't really anything you can do to explain his thinking. mostly just looking for content from you regarding who is scum, and reads on the leading wagons
what do you think of my woopons case refa?
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i think i'll put junko above kirsche in the order to lynch, because he has far fewer posts and it's easier to fake content with a smaller amount of posts, and because i agree with parts of refa's case upon rereading junko. i agree that junko's kirsche read focuses on just a small amount of kirsche's content, and I agree with refa's defence on himself.
but I don't really agree with the athena bit. my understanding of junko's point is (paraphrased) "if you're still unsatisfied with a slot, how can you be okay with unvoting?" i disagree with junko on this bc I think there are times where you've just kind of reached an impasse and you don't see the point of continuing. but i don't think it's a misrep on junko's part. it's also unfair to criticize junko for not responding to refa's defence when junko never posted after refa's defence so it's not like he was ignoring it.
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the tl dr got put in the spoiler for some reason:
tl dr: a lot of vote parking without pushing anyone as scum. i think it's okay to go through those stretches where you're not confident about who's scum but weapons has basically never pushed anyone strongly at any point in the game. I think up to now I've been giving way too much of a pass to him because he sounds kind of like how I feel and I can sympathize with him not really being able to get a lot of scumreads. but it doesn't feel like his attempts to find scumreads are genuine because he doesn't really pressure them strongly.
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ok confidence back
not really##Vote: Weapons
on D1 after the initial shenanigans I thought his posts were okay bc I could see a clear thought process but he never actually really pushed anyone very much as scum. the bulk of his suspicions on D1 were against bartozio and athena. the bartozio stuff wasn't even really based on his content so much as how he claimed and then him leaving the thread for a while. this is his case:
-I still want Bart to at least reply cause I do think him dropping his role in and then disappearing when people started scumreading him for it is scummy. Then again, the fact that he made that post standalone is more town, so idk. @Refa, I thought it was weird he checked his role pm randomly after phase start because I didn't do that and didn't see any reason to, but upon review that's probably cause I'm biased cause my role is pretty easy to understand and so it's not a great reason.
this is really waffly first off. i think the athena stuff is stronger than this but he sticks to this most of the day without really adding much to it. he votes athena later to consolidate but says even as he's doing it that he finds bartozio still scummier. later again he revotes bartozio when that picks up again but even as he votes him he's distancing himself from it:
I'll probably be up in time for phase end, but I'll switch to Bartozio for now cause gut says athena wouldn't wifom the self-meta question like that. @Eurykins, I went more off the thread vibe than the votals, where a number of people were scumreading athena and no one was really talking about Bartozio. I don't really feel particularly strongly about a Bart lynch either, so I'm not pushing it that much, and I'm also not feeling the effort right now. I'm ever so slightly annoyed that you say it's distracting though, cause saying that sort of thing gets townies to be more self-conscious about their posts, which makes them act scummier, which is also distracting.
##Unvote
##Vote: Bartozio
i think it's okay to not be 100% about a vote you're consolidating on but this has been his main read all game and he doesn't really that strongly about it? it's like he's basically never felt strongly about anything all game.
He's kind of had a similar approach to D2 as me where his vote has been a bit of a park but he's been rereading other people meanwhile and posting thoughts about them. those posts are mostly okay but when you look at his content as a whole it doesn't seem like he's really been trying so much to push the stuff from his rereads. like for example there's this:
Ok I read kirsche's ISO and came out with a slight scumread. Junko's ISO also makes more sense after having read both.
The main thing with kirsche is that while most of his logic/actions are fine, they are townreads or callouts or stuff that isn't really alignment indicative, and I disagree with the core arguments behind his main D1 votes (BBM and Junko).
For BBM, kirsche said that his gut was that BBM was asking questions for the sake of it, but I distinctly did not get that feeling. For Junko, kirsche agreed with Marth's case where Junko was wishy-washy, but I also find that case to be a stretch, and the rest of his reasoning just seems rather dismissive of Junko's posts, like he was sticking to his read just to stick to his read.
I think his most valid point is that Junko was voting him throughout most of D1 for a relatively minor reason, so it may just be town OMGUS, but overall I think kirsche looks worse between the two of them. I can vote here, but I've only read three players in-depth and want to see if there's clearer stuff out there.
i think the points he makes her are mostly fine but... why doesn't he actually vote kirsche here if he comes out with a minor scumread? so what if there's clearer stuff out there, he can change his vote later if he wants. his vote has been on fable this whole time, which is basically just a prodvote to post content. he also doesn't really ask kirsche any questions or anything like that. that makes it feels like he's producing the content for the sake of it as opposed to producing it to actually figure out who's scum.
tl dr; a lot of vote parking without pushing anyone as scum. i think it's okay to go through those stretches where you're not confident about who's scum but weapons has basically never pushed anyone strongly at any point in the game. I think up to now I've been giving way too much of a pass to him because he sounds kind of like how I feel and I can sympathize with him not really being able to get a lot of scumreads. but it doesn't feel like his attempts to find scumreads are genuine because he doesn't really pressure them strongly.
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@Lord Gaius honestly i expect you'll update your reads as you go through the game so I at least would rather you type out all your notes and consolidate and post them at the end per person. like for example you're starting to feel concrete stuff about satsuma, but snike is about to sub in for the other half of his hydra and be supertown.
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meh ##Unvote
i read jb's last post with the spoilered cases and i'm not feeling him as my least townie read anymore. i still think that mack is a bad lynch but i think he makes some good points against nightmare and the weapons case is good i think.
it kind of sucks that there were like 30-50 pages for all the subs to come in and read because i don't think most of them read them. so it's hard to know how much to read their posts for.
i reread refa's junko case so i guess i'll reread junko again. i also forgot to reread eclipse so i'll do that too and then come up with a reads post and then i'm probably out for today. pretty demotivated to play mafia right now.
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i disagree with the point that I'm picking against weaker play as opposed to scum play. i'm pretty sure that with all my cases after RVS i've been pointing out scum intent. this is particularly frustrating to me bc this is basically what I've seen the cases against zeus and satsuma and athena as being and I've been defending against those on d1/d2.
@Refa i don't understand what you mean wrt me not explaining things about bartozio. when i first made that comment it was kind of a gutvibe and then I followed it up and was voting him later on in the day. i dropped bibbon because her frustration in her response to me felt genuine. i generally find that how people react to pressure is more important than what they did to garner that pressure. and like, as I made the large post after that responding to her, even as I was typing it out I was losing confidence in that read.
to be perfectly honest this is also what's happening with jb's response to my read. but i don't know who else to vote. kirsche/junko/weapons and the pile of inactives/people who subbed in for them are next. junko said he didn't have time to make a lot of cases and that's why he was tunneling/parking. considering junko subbed out I think that this is believable. for me to vote junko/radicate right now would basically mean me believing that he was straight up lying about that. not that he couldn't have been scum who was also busy but I didn't have any other big problems with his play.
@Zkirsche i have no idea what you mean by me being ok to lynch you through PoE being bad especially for me. i'm pretty sure i use PoE more than anyone else on SF. i guess i haven't had a single post going through every read and summarizing it. i can do that i guess.
lynching a macho martyr claim this early is bad play. if they're town they'll probably get themselves killed soon. so if they don't die we'll know in a few day phases that they're scum. not down to lynch the nightmare/mack slot.
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Sorry guys just got news that my grandma got rushed to the hospital so I'm not in a very mafia mood atm. I'll probably be back in the evening but quick thoughts:
Don't want to lynch the marth/omega slot
I'm still more confident about the JB vote than anything else. I think shinori brought up a good point wrt how it felt like he brushed aside the jailer claim. That feels similar to me as how he brushed aside fable's townmeta on her yesterday.
I honestly have no other real scumreads but I guess at this point even though I'm not scumreading kirsche I'm finding everyone else less likely to be scum than him. So I'd probably vote jb > kirsche. Still not interested in the junko slot.
People shouldnt just drop their reads on people who subbed out. Subbing out doesn't change alignment.
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man I really wanted to find kirsche scummy so i'd have more scumreads but i can't do it. i think his junko vote has kind of become a park now on d2 but I really don't think he was tunneling on d1 and it's not just bc he switched away from me. he consistently had posts talking about other people in the game like nightmare, marth, etc. that being said his one d2 content post didn't really follow up on any of his d1 reads other than junko so I want to know what he still thinks about them.
related to that, the only other suspicious thing was his athena read. the first time he talks about him near ed1 it's kind of waffly but as the day reaches its conclusion he pushes athena to be more and more suspicious until he finally switches to bartozio to consolidate, even though he never really says anything new about athena. so i'd like him to talk more about athena and why he was suspicious of him yesterday, and if he still is.
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r i p so many sub requests
imo mods should sub me back in after i die
sorry for flaking today guys I was watching SPORTS all day, will do a kirsche reread now
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if martyr and jailer both target the same person, martyr would draw the jailer to themselves and essentially be protected by the jailer while not suffering from the hook due to priority. so i think macho martyr and jailer still work together.
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16 minutes ago, Refa said:
Why is JB scummier than Athena FYPOV? I've read all of his posts and my thoughts are "that was okay, I guess".
that's basically how I feel when I read athena's posts lol. i guess looking back at my case on JB I agree that I don't show many instances of scum intent on JB's part. but the fable stuff is genuinely really scummy and opportunistic imo and I read the rest of his posts and think "this isn't really a good post".
13 minutes ago, Jaybee said:and yes I still don't feel right about Bibbon
1. I don't understand the randomness of the jailer claim and it wasn't needed at all. And I can't come up with a good town reason for openly revealing that, just... scummy ones, like towncred.
2. The overall sentiment of this post feels very very wrong to me. Snike has been pushing this athena thing since he subbed in but she's townreading Athena; kirsche and junko have been directing posts at each other the whole game. Are any of them scummy for being persistent in their cases, and if not, why? (outside of this). I mean, you yourself are pushing this Weapons thing pretty hard... (which I do think is legit, I've got my own issues with Weapons but I can't post that now since it's almost 3am).
would mostly like some responses to my earlier post wrt bibbon, I feel better about her than I did D1 but not clear yet.
like this post- it doesn't really benefit scum to claim when not necessary either. now scum!bibbon has to use the jailer in a way that satisfies town and the longer she survives people will think "why haven't scum killed this protective role yet".
i don't really know what he's getting at in the second reason at all. just because she says that i'm town for dropping a case doesn't mean that everyone ever who doesn't drop a case has to be scum.
anyways gonna take a break will be back later and reread kirsche and eclipse. i didn't like what jb really said in terms of content but his reaction under pressure and ratio of defence vs pushing cases seemed townie which is frustrating bc i dont know who else could be scum.
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22 minutes ago, Jaybee said:
1,2. mm I will admit that I was really lazy on rereading Fable and I don't recall him doing very much else on D1, but I didn't really feel a need to explain why I unvoted because on p9 he did end up giving some reads.
2. well yeah of course i had nothing else to say about Zeus, that was my first comment on him and I'm not sure why this is weird? The eclipse section is poor wording on my part, I meant that I thought she was playing badly but still townish at that point in time.
3. K let me use this to explain my thoughts on the Marth claim.
If I'm scum and I think I'm going to get lynched at some point in town, maybe one thing I do is fakeclaim Delayed because alignment-cops (and anyone else, tbh) won't want to target me. Bartozio had a good post here about the scum benefit of the claim if it's real. I see where everyone else is coming from regarding the town aspect of it, and I disagree with you. I think the eclipse read is a natural development from her exchange with zeus and the issues I mentioned twice.
well yeah of course I didn't remove the vote because I didn't post anything content related between my initial Bart vote and my decision to stick to him end D1. I voiced my reasoning for keeping the vote there clearly, and I also clearly said that I didn't want to pursue the Bibbon case on Day 1 because I wasn't going to be awake by the end of phase and there wasn't a way to push that lynch.
and no, everyone missed the bibbon post, it's back here and i'll follow up on this after
what are your opinions on fable now?
i dislike it because it's like... you're discussing the validity of lynching one person in relation to another person you've never talked about.
fair enough on the marth claim
i did actually read the bibbon post but forgot to talk about it. this might be semantic but the way you opened the case made me uncomfortable. i know you obviously have no point of reference for fable's meta but it feels like rather than saying "yeah there's this reason for thinking she might be town but it's outweighed by other stuff" it's more like you said "yeah there's this reason for thinking she's town but I'm going to ignore it". reasons 1 and 2 are fine but are stuff that others pointed out. reason 3 is bad bc everyone gets frustrated when they perceive they're being pushed for shitty reasons. town moreso than scum if anything. and 4 flat out makes no sense because how is progressing from "zeus should be vigged" to "zeus should be lynched" waffling? if anything it's the opposite. and why is bibbon specifically the one looking for an easy zeus lynch over the others?
i guess with your bibbon case i don't see much that I can point to and say "this has scum intent" but it just doesn't impress me as content because it's either not original or has stuff that I heavily disagree with.
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12 minutes ago, Refa said:
I thought it was town and didn't want to draw attention to it honestly. Even mafia would be afraid of an ITP (who would definitely want a Jailor dead), so it doesn't really benefit them.
same but now that attention has been drawn to it
eclipse can you c/d?
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every time I read a new athena case I reread his posts and I don't really agree with junko's case. i semi-agree with the timing of the satsuma vote removal being suspicious but all the stuff about athena's EoD actions is heavily overblown. there is a kind of inconsistency wrt athena originally being okay with lynching marth earlier on and then not being okay with it near phase end, but there isn't really any scum intent here unless athena and marth are buddies. however, athena does say why he doesn't like the marth wagon (although he's wrong about why the wagon exists) and his bart vote was a pretty clear not-me-over-me so detailed justification doesn't need to exist.
idk it's like... athena isn't really a townread for me anymore because a bunch of the roleclaims today have shifted up towniness of other people and made it more likely he's scum through PoE. but all the cases feel like they're picking at small parts of his play which look bad rather than showing how his posts have an overarching scum motivation?
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well you could also set up a connection between a scum and a town so the scum could get the townie's trust. and if one of the co-networkers is scum it's probably not the only part to their role, just the part that provides an easy and provable claim. so it's pretty null.
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on SF, decoy (or reverse martyr) is used to refer to what smogon refers to as martyr. please use our GOOD and CORRECT rolenames walrein
mack, co-networkers are two players who each pick a target. those two targets then get a quicktopic with each other. athena claimed to be one of the co-networkers near the end of D1. not sure if he was the one who targeted refa or the other co-networker did.
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on SF, martyr means that actions aimed at the martyr's target get redirected to the martyr.
I think you're using the BAD and WRONG martyr definition from smogon, where the martyr's target's actions get redirected to the martyr
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no that just means someone tried targeting refa with the co-networker and got nightmare/mack instead
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to use ISOs, you can also use the script in this post
i would actually recommend not just ISOing people if you're subbing in though. you'll miss a lot of context and stuff and subbing in lets you look at the game with fresh eyes that people in the game miss
@walrein- what, I'm pretty sure refa did not claim co-neighbourizer. athena did.
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1 minute ago, Bibbon said:
This is why I disagree with the scum read on Athena, especially the Snike (?) slot is looking the worse for it. I'm not calling them scum as of yet, but you should know that poor logic is more likely to come from town than it is from scum. Anybody who has played a few games should know this. It's so easy for scum to pull apart the reads and the logic and push for mislynches.
i think that while it's true that both town and mafia can have bad logic, I think it's going a step too far to say that town are MORE likely to have bad logic. scum can also have bad logic because they have to force reads and make up reasoning and sometimes they cant achieve that while maintaining good/consistent logic.
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anyways I reread walrein. tbh he didn't actually have many suspicions beyond athena and then marth. the former was a kind of RVSy reason that he parked on for a bit too long and the latter was a pretty shallow one-liner. but when he was active he just felt more comfortable then he did as scum in cuphead? like there was a post where he was joking about how he was planning on using his reputation as a flaker to slack in this game, and i dont think he would have wanted to draw attention to that as scum.
come back @Walrein :( just bc you realized rein's not playing doesn't mean you have to take his flaker mantle
fwiw I also assumed weapons was trolling in my reread but I can see why via might not have. refa's sheeping of sully confused me more than his sheeping of weapons though. regardless what's the scum intent there on via/refa's part eclipse? if that action of weapons is null bc the odds of a turbolynch were so low, shouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who sheeped him? especially since town weapons would presumably say he was trolling before the lynch happened?
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on a more serious note, I agree with via that shinori is a good scum player because he's very confident and can take advantage of uncertainty among townies in a game. i'm not suspicious of him in this game though. are there any specific posts or actions by him that are making you paranoid, or is it just a general vibe?
1 minute ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:It's a correct read but do you think it can't happen as town?
this post confuses me. are you admitting that what you did was scummy?
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ok I am also suspicious of eclipse. i think i would probably go weapons > eclipse > junko right now. i know my last few posts have been pretty waffly about junko but yeah whatever i don't have a lot of scumreads
so firstly I do think it is an accurate assessment of eclipse's play to say that she's been pushing bad play over scum play. a lot of her posts on d1 especially are basically just telling people (zeus, fable, bibbon) to post more content and telling them the importance of posting content. that's not all her play but it does comprise a decent amount of it. this is all really easy content that makes it seem like she's doing a lot more than she is. other instances of her pushing people for doing something bad as opposed to scummy play are her saying she was slightly more suspicious of refa/via for following weapons's troll claim. if you remove stuff like this her content is basically only on athena and marth:
her early d1 athena vote had really bad logic and never showed why there was scum intent. i remember being dissatisfied with it at the time but dropping it because i didn't think i would get more. it just doesn't make any sense. she says that there was a super large discrepancy in tone between when athena pushes people vs answering questions from other people. not only does she exaggerate the difference in tone:
she never really says WHY it's suspicious, just that it is.
her end of d1/start of d2 athena vote is mostly predicated on athena saying he didn't want to lynch marth and then putting him in a lynch priority. however it's quite clear that that lynch priority is specifically on who to consolidate on out of the major wagons at the time, not his reads overall.
her day 1 marth vote is good but I really dislike her d2 marth vote. it just feels really weak. the second part about marth "throwing shade" at walrein sucks because walrein up to that point had not really given an excuse for flaking and has a history of flaking as scum. marth had a reason for having to go. that feels like the crux of her re-vote on him?