Cysx
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Posts posted by Cysx
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Best frozen lance user is a bit of a tossup imo; Hubert has a statistical edge and wants it more, but Marianne has easier access to lancefaire classes, thanks to her being female and having boons in riding and flying, and where a bunch of others can physic just as well as her, few of them have straightforward access to high damage builds.
I don't really have a strong opinion on which is the best.I've personally had great success with Assassin Lysithea using a levin sword+, though it's a bit of a taxing build since the point is to have her double with a 9 wt weapon, on maddening. It does work but you have to stack a lot of things(both blows, plus preferably wt-3 and spd+2, and assassin requires you to raise bow a bit; also it's somewhat of a pricey build). That was probably the most I ever got out of the class, period, though. Reliable long range ORKO on almost everything, with Shade for survivability. Didn't actually use soulblade all that much, so this is really about the sword boon, but thanks to her having prodigy, I think I can also mention Swordfaire 2 without too many contestations.
Not a massive fan of 3H sealing skills pretty much for the reasons Dark Holy Elf brought up, but I also don't have much experience with them truth be told, so eh.
I agree with pretty much all the rest, can't think of much of anything to add to any entry either.
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1 hour ago, whase said:
I'm actually surprised about the amount of negativity in this thread. Not saying people who didn't like it shouldn't be saying so or whatever, but I'm just surprised. The game has been very well received by most of my friends and myself, despite, it's true, its obvious flaws.
It's been a growing sentiment for a few months, and unfortunately, not too hard to see coming. "Honeymoon phase" is something that is now openly recognized to be a thing by many people, but what we don't talk about much (I feel)is what happens to our perspective once we've been done with a game for a while. I won't talk like the psychologist that I am clearly not, but what I can say is that the community slowly shifting towards more negativity and cynicism is not unheard of, in fact it kinda seems to happen every time. To the point that when there's not been a new game announcement for a while, the idea that this is just its normal state starts floating around.
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Pretty psyched myself! But I'm a day one aficionado, clearly looking around that trailer didn't generate all that much excitement from non-PSO2 fans, feels like 3H all over again(^_^') It was one of the very few which had gameplay too, which is the #1 complaint you see about the showcase. Still wasn't enough I guess.
Just in case you're unaware by the way, PS4 or Switch versions exist because New Genesis is tied to PSO2, which itself was released on these consoles in Japan(note that the Switch version is streaming only). Since the US version seems to partially be a Microsoft thing, it seems fairly unlikely that we'll get those overseas, unfortunately:(
As for an EU version, it's tough to say at this point, but I'm not very optimistic, truth be told. Sega doesn't have the best track record here.
Worth noting is that in PSO2, most of the action happens on the client's side, which means that even playing the japanese version from the EU, you will very rarely experience lag, other players aside. Pvp is kind of a no-go as a result(it is pretty infuriating as a matter of fact, you need to be 2 seconds ahead to stand a chance against local players), but the regular game is perfectly playable. Assuming New Genesis functions the same, not getting an EU version isn't necessarily a deal breaker. -
4 hours ago, Owns said:
But I thought all seeds have a chance of giving stat boosters? I'm sure that Angelica Seeds, the 5* you get in ch. 1, give Rocky Burdock.
Well, apparently so! Truth be told I don't even use the ones I get randomly. At this point a good part of the game is analysis for me, and using stat boosters on people can conflict with that in a bunch of ways. So yeah, I just didn't know that:p
4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:This applies to Crimson Flower as well. Also, I don't think stat boosts from cooking will be applied to the second chapter in the consecutive chapter scenarios. I could be wrong though.
No, that's correct.
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Well in terms of real-time management I'm definitely the wrong person to ask, but I can probably think of some helpful things to say.
First, professor rank obviously snowballs as you get more activity points to get more exp(also the monthly student question base gains double at >=D rank and I think >=C rank, so 300->600->1200), and thus getting a good start can be the difference between reaching A+ before ch10 or after the timeskip. The best way to get prof EXP early is to cultivate 5* seeds at the greenhouse(you get 100 exp per * of the randomly picked seed afaik, aka only plant 5* ones, even just one if you're running low); there are two issues with this:
- You can get those immediately during month 1(and then harvesting makes them self-sufficient, usually) but it's luck based and thus might involve save scumming.
- Stat booster seeds aren't 5*, they're 3*. I don't farm boosters so I don't actually know for sure how big a deal breaker this is, but I always assumed it was pretty bad.While most people seem to keep their bait for fishing events, I like using it to close out levels instead. The end result is roughly the same, but you get to use more activity points earlier, and can potentially get bullheads; speed cooking can make early maddening a completely different game.
Beyond that, it's little things.The hidden monastery items are obviously something you should go for every time, I'll assume there's a good guide for them out there by this point. The student question should be answered correctly especially if it's the difference between levelling up or not(it will rarely be). Choir, Cooking and Meal give more exp if students enjoy them. Also, Tournaments give the highest Prof exp per activity points at 300.
Now as to why you should even bother, well while it's obviously helpful for Byleth and recruiting(plus motivating students without running out), there's a bit more to it; it gives you more control and access over Prof guidance, which will amount to anywhere between +50% to +20% tutoring exp(+100% on a bane). Then there's getting earlier Silver, Brave, Killer Gauntlet and Bolt Axe/Magic Bow forging(all unlocked at B+ prof rank), and the +1 motivation per meal at A rank, which allows you to mix and match characters and ingredients much more liberally. It's also nice to reach the monthly money cap(5000, at C rank) asap since you lack good sources of revenue early on. And then Adjutant slots are also tied to it, with one being unlocked at C, B and A ranks; those are great for a ton of things, just in general. Obviously if you go for aux battles a lot, more Venture points is nice(C+ and A+).
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As for preferences, well basically seminars are sub-optimal in a vast majority of cases I'd say, so I don't go for them unless there's no tutoring that week to build motivation for and I need to get several characters going on a low weapon rank, since that's what those do best.
I don't do Aux battles but I might in the future, if only because getting two intermediate masteries on people other than Lysithea is very tempting. In general they're close enough to grinding that I don't want to, however. I can't say I've ever felt too gimped in terms of class mastery as a result, but I never warpskip(and like to eat arrows in ch 5 if you catch my drift), so grain of salt here.And what else... A+ rank I think I typically reach around month 8. Not certain, though.
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I'd say neither, you'll be just fine but miss out on a lot of resources and a few all-stars.
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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
@Cysx Sadly I don't have my battle numbers written down, just kills. Battles of course tend to be higher, though how much depends on the unit type in question. For mages trying to use magical combat arts, a huge number of their battles are probably kills. Checking a few playthroughs my units who focused on magical CAs usually ended up between 80 and 100 kills. Draw your own conclusions there I suppose.
Thank you; at least we have our explanation. Plus this game begs to be warpskipped. I don't do it because I don't enjoy it, but yeah.
1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:Definitely cool to see the numbers! I think I can explain the difference in our experiences though: at least personally, I never tutor any one unit every single week. There are 3-7 spots open for tutoring every week depending on point of the game (on average biasing towards the top of that, of course), and I'm using ~10 characters in addition to Byleth (most post-TS maps have 11 unit slots), so some taking turns is to be expected. I've generally assumed each character gets 2/3 of the available tutoring slots and that works out for me for back of the envelope calculations, and if we do this here then any given character only gets around 32 tutoring opportunities instead of 47, and missing out on those 15 sessions is 795 less lance exp if I'm reading your numbers correctly, which obviously is enough to make S+ basically impossible. You can focus on fewer characters if you want and I respect that as valid but eh, lowmanning breaks FE and is boring. You can ignore e.g. your dancer if you want though tbh I kinda like getting the dancer Move+1 (and/or higher sword rank if I'm doing a dodgetank dancer build).
Well truth be told I don't really lowman(precisely for the reason you brought up) or ignore anyone, though there tend to be two to three characters for which I go with mid to low investment builds(healers typically, but not always). And then Byleth plays by different rules so that leaves me with 6 to 7 units I can consistently invest in for most of the game(I tend to rush A+ prof rank asap). Looking at it now, in the playthrough I've been mentioning, Lorenz, Marianne, Leonie, Lysithea and Ignatz got to their respective faire 2, and Claude fell ~200 wexp short(he has A+ authority and riding, so it was doable but I clearly spread myself too thin). My Hilda had mov +1 and Bolting, so she was the seventh despite being my dancer. But that only happened once maddening was released, before that, just looking at the exp requirements made me give up on S+ every time, and I genuinely thought it was nearly impossible until I almost accidentally did it. Thought it was some kind of "Maddening magic" for a while, which I guess it kinda is, since you fight more. Especially me apparently.
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17 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
You really have my respect for trying to math this all out. Tutoring exp is such a painful thing to calculate just due to the sheer amount of variance it has. I'd thought mono focus and two greats would be enough replicate the rate of Perfects, but it looks like not. I'll most certainly keep in mind what you said on the rate of Prefects in any future discussions.
I will say that to be more accurate you should inculde things like Stable Duty and Gambit Authority Exp. Getting a prefect at Stable Duty with a boon will result in 18 Riding Exp, which really adds up over time. Using gambits also doubles the rate of Authority gain even if you miss, so something like 10 Gambits will result in 40 Authority Exp.
I will say through, that the difference in the amount of battles we have is truly staggering. Like when I tried out this setup, my Marianne only had 80 battles under her belt and less than 4 of my units engaged in more than a 100 battles. Granted, I typically go for the bosses and skipped a lot of the Paralogue while also having Marianne as an Adjutant when she was Mage, but still.
Either way, I'll concede that Marianne is a tier above Dorothea primarily due to being able to access unique Lances to be able to secure some OHKOs Dorothea cannot. It's been a very fun time debating with you and I wish discussions like these happened more.
Appreciate it! Doing anything like this always seemed like a fool's errand when it came to discussing this game. And that hasn't really changed, considering the time it takes to plan it all out. Kinda hope the devs go for something less gratuitously random next time around. Less tedious too.
Yeah, both of those completely slipped my mind. It's true that the stables in particular make riding a bit of a non-issue, but then again, maybe it'd be unfair to assume Marianne gets one of the two slots for an extended period of time.
That is actually crazy. I went for almost all paralogues and am a "rout as fast as possible" kind of guy, so it checks out to an extent, but still... Now I'm wondering what the actual average of the whole playerbase looks like.
It's so tough to level the playing field with this game already because of aux battles and gardening, too... but then again, if my experience with this community is anything to go by, your numbers are more relevant than mine, so I guess that's my lesson here. I honestly wouldn't have guessed it was this big a difference before this exchange.
@Dark Holy Elf, just for the sake of it, may I ask what your own numbers look like?Well, clearly neither of us were playing to win anymore, but I have a feeling you've been doing this long enough that you know how rare your gesture is on the ol' internets; that's how it's been for me anyway, thus I genuinely appreciate this as well, regardless:) And likewise!
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8 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
Guard Adjutants only activate on the second hit of an attack. So units will have to take a hit first for it take activate, which isn't really happening with most mages units. I'd also hesitate to use Blessing on them when it's better suited for things like dodgetanks or units using Wrath. But I'll concede that Dorothea shouldn't automatically assumed to have an adjuatant depending on the team comp.
Sublime Heaven only hits once and isn't enough to kill on most monsters in one hit when a lot of the late game monsters hit 199 HP. The fact that almost all of them have 0 Luck also makes having more Crits a lot more consistent than normal, so it's best for Grapplers and Warmasters to take them on instead.
How are Relic Lances in low demand? One rounding benchmarks become very strict as the game goes on. So if a Swift Strikes users wants to consistently Orko the bulkier enemies, such as Grapplers or Heroes, they'll often need to make use of them.
Dorothea kills enemies at a part of the game where other units have trouble doing so in one of the harder chapters of the game and only falls off at point where almost every unit fall off of. Nobody faults Catherine for being unable to oneround late game enemies, so I don't see why it should be held against her. Especially considering that her competition needs specific weapons that other units really want to make use of on top of requiring S+ Faire to accomplish what she can't.
The problem is that my experience doesn't mesh with yours. I've only gotten two units to S+ in all of my playthroughs, and one of those was Shamir. That's why I figure to fall back on numbers instead. Speaking of...
There's 49 weeks of Training during the entirety of VW. If we assume that Marianne had a boon in Lances the entire time and studied it solely for +36 exp a week the entire game, that'd be 1,764 skill exp. Assuming that we start tutoring her in Lances after finishing Authority, Riding, and Reason by around Chapter 11, will give her 25 Weeks of training. We'll also assume that she gets two greats every week. Combined with the Indech +1 Instruction bonus will result in +34 Lance Exp a week. That gives a total of 2,614 Skill exp. So with all of that, she'd need to fight 98 battles as a Paladin to reach S+ even with all of those generous assumptions.
Now if you throw in Sauna into that, it all becomes a mess and probably explains the disparity. I really dislike it for the amount of favoritism it brings, but if you use it I can't really fault you for that.I mean, neither build we're talking about gets OHKOed by stuff typically, right? Plus mages can avoid damage fairly easily, guard adjutants are for melee.
Yeah but if Sublime heaven crits, it can be expected to OHKO(the first couple lifebars at least, it's +25 mt), while a killer would vary wildly. It doesn't rival knuckles of course, but it's a decent option to have if Byleth is going to fight, and it's still a strong ranged weapon regardless of that. I don't know, I don't hear of many people giving it to someone else.Well not really, they ORKO for the whole game with silver+. But I'm assuming lancefaire 2 lategame which apparently is contentious, so I guess we have to deal with that first. Worth noting is that they don't get to abuse magic combat art accuracy, so the lance of ruin can easily give them lower than ideal accuracy scores unless you picked up hit +20.
I don't think there's much of a point making this a Dorothea vs the world thing, this would greatly overcomplicate things. I'm not necessarily saying she belongs that low on a tier list, just a good deal lower than Marianne. Don't misconstrue my words, though; Marianne still performs better than Dorothea without faire 2, and honestly we had already established that.
I don't know what to tell you, I used to assume that was impossible too, and then I just started doing it and it happened for my whole crew consistently. I genuinely don't think I did anything special either, and I didn't have the dlc/sauna. I just tutored every single time.
Dang, do we have to do that? Tutoring exp is tricky business. Okay.
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I don't have the training weeks noted down, but I've got 48 tutoring ones for VW written down, with the second earliest one not being counted because you don't get to recharge motivation, so, 47, which roughly matches I guess?
... sooo looking at what you posted, you're assuming no tutoring before ch 11 even though she needs to unlock Paladin and you're going for solo tutoring even though that's a waste in a context where you want exp for multiple things for a while, which, yes, helps with numbers but may also be the reason why you think any of this is generous.
Most importantly, you're assuming zilch perfects, when they result in 3x to 4x exp once a session, and 2x every other time. I've done some very uninteresting but pretty thorough testing a while back to figure out the rate( I have the result of around 1000 sessions noted down with various factors, such as with talent, with bane, neutral, with/out professor guidance, with/out a +1 statue bonus, any and all combination of all of them... I did stop before getting sufficient sampling for statue 2 and combinations including that, but everything was consistent so the idea that these would affect the rates when nothing else did didn't seem to hold much water) , and extracted a pretty clear 40% good, 40% great, 20% perfect. The variation on perfects pushes this into math that is a bit advanced for me to write down a solid formula off of, but one would turn a 34 session into a 54 to 64 one, so if I'm anywhere near correct and one can expect that to happen roughly 2/3 weeks... it's pretty easy to see that your numbers are an underestimation.
It is also possible to have professor guidance available for a while if you play your cards right, and the lance +2 statue bonus is reasonably obtainable some time into the timeskip. Also ~100 rounds of combat in an entire maddening playthrough... that's not really that crazy to be honest. At least not to me. To be fair I rarely boss skip, which might be a big differentiator here.Okay, so say her objective is S+ lances, D+ reason, B authority and I'm pretty sure I pulled off +1 move and lancefaire 2 but let's go with the minimum of C riding to savescum for Paladin.
From her base, that is a collective 3900 with talent and 860 without. Reason must preferably be done by ch 6, riding by chapter 11, and authority asap.Reason gets 20 a week as a dual focus, aka 9 weeks to get to 180. That's roughly the very end of month 4, and no tutoring involved.
Riding gets 24 a week and needs 300. However, neutral vs talent as a focus is a 20% difference, as opposed to up to 50% for tutoring... thus considering authority is neutral, riding is best tutored. Fortunately the riding +2 statue bonus is easy to get in time, and professor guidance can be a part of it throughout if you're going for Mov+1 on Byleth. Let's assume you're not, though, so she gets a base 8 exp when tutoring. Getting a perfect will result in a 48 to 80 gain, but 5 perfects are not an average outcome by any means, so let's say the average is 60. Getting no perfect will result in 32 to 48, averaged at 40. If the 2/3 rate for a perfect is applied, this is 160 per three weeks aka ~53 a week. So, this takes 6 weeks of tutoring away from lances.
Authority requires 680 and gets 20 a week as a dual focus. 34 weeks to get there is clearly not acceptable. Authority is constantly raised through combat which can reasonably lower that number to 30(40 rounds of combat can generally have happened by the time you can be expected to reach B), but that's still much too high. So let's mix in some tutoring.
Authority is one of Byleth's specialties and also something they want to raise, which means the prof.guidance bonus can be expected all the way up to C+, if not more. Authority +1 can also be assumed relatively early; to simplify, we'll say prof guidance until C+, and Authority +1 all the way. So, that's 7 a week until C+, which taking the above ratio is ~46 a week, then 5, which is ~32 a week. I'd say that 8 tutoring sessions is a decent expectation here, which should take care of about half of the whole thing, leaving ~15 weeks of dual focus when combat is taken into account.Which leaves us with lances
why am I inflicting this upon myself again?14 weeks of tutoring were lost, leaving us with 33 in the entirety of VW. 24 weeks were spent as a dual focus and the remaining 25 can be solo. That's 1476 wexp. 33 tutoring at a rate vaying between 6 and 9 or 10; post timeskip(aka when the +2 statue bonus is the most likely to be on) being really heavy on tutoring, I'll average at 8. Using our lovely ratio, we get the same as riding, aka ~53 a week, which is 1749 wexp, so a total of 3225 wexp. This is 375 missing exp. At +6 per combat as a Paladin and +3 as the rest which we'll average at 4.5, that's 83 rounds of combat. From the few screenshots I have left of this playthrough, my Byleth fought 376 times, my Marianne 256 times, and my Leonie 384 times. These definitely were above average in my army and potentially are high in general, but case in point, 83 isn't unreasonable, and there's enough leeway to get it one or two chapters before 22.... well that is a thing I just did. Man.
----------------7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:The only thing I want to add is that I'm definitely with LoneRecon on S+ not being a thing; in seven playthroughs I've never reached it on anyone, even though I usually do as many paralogues as possible (not aux fights though). I once did a VW playthrough where I left Claude on bows as one of his goals (as well as sole equipped weapon type) the entire game and sent him exclusively through bow classes and he still didn't even get that close to S+. Could I have gotten there with even more instruct (though I definitely did some!), mono-weapon focus, and/or monopolizing a Knowledge Gem? Probably. But even if you do it'll be a very small window with it, and I'd generally suggest we ignore it for these discussions.
I was gonna be like "I don't know what to say man, I ain't lying". But then I went and wrote the above for some reason. As a result, I will now say
You will ignore it over my sleep-deprived body
... It's cool actually. But I'm genuinely surprised it worked for me and not others. None of the above qualifies as special to me. That's assuming I made no big mistake of course, but the fact is that it happened for most of my active cast, on two separate playthroughs... -
2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
Why wouldn't she be allowed a Manuela Adjutant? Adjutants aren't so valuable that she can't be afforded to be given one, especially when Blessing exists for all your 1 HP needs. Sublime Creator breaking barriers is pretty unneeded since Byleth doesn't much damage with the barriers up and would prefer a Killer weapon for actually engaging one. A Curved Shot from a Blessed Bow would accomplish the same thing it's needed for without being retaliated against.
Paladins and Armored Units make up a good amount of the enemy composition on the majority of maps. To discount them among the enemies isn't really accurate representation. Besides, Dorothea would be able to ohko the Assassins and Snipers in Claude's Paralogue with a Maneula Adjutant. Side question: is Blutgang effective against Wyverns? Because I wouldn't think Marianne would have good hit rates against 88 Avoid enemies.
S+ Faire skills take too much investment to reach without a substantial amount of Aux battles. Like going from E -> A Rank requires 1320 Skill exp, while going to A -> S+ requires almost double that at 2280 Skill exp. Besides, providing +10 Hit to a good amount of units is probably just as valuable as a endgame combat unit with how dodgy some of the endgame enemies. And a lot of units require chip damage to finish off enemies which Dorothea would be decent at doing with Thoron.
I disagree with your conclusion
but I wouldn't mind still going. Its always fun to argue about unit quality.I'd be inclined to disagree, they stop most units from being ORKOed in a very large amount of situations(and it can work well on top of blessing, can't it? Since if the double doesn't leave at 1 HP, the next assaillant will trigger Blessing and then be incapable of killing on the double as well). Then there is the issue that existed back then; you have three slots, and a bunch of + damage supports. Just in general it's hasty to just assume +damage supports on any given combat unit now.
Well, why would a killer weapon be better? Sublime heaven gives +20 crit and is ranged. I mean it's not necessarily a terrible idea to give it to Dorothea if it pushes her over the edge, but I disagree with the notion that Byleth doesn't use it and that it's thus a fair assumption that it's freely available.
Needing resources that she isn't guaranteed to get is a low point. There is an argument to be made that this goes for lance relics as well, but they're in relatively low demand since brave combat art users don't need them, neither do vengeance users.True, there are a lot of them. But there are more things that aren't them(especially later on), and she's a lower movement unit that cannot be picky about her targets.
Side answer: You're leading me on and you have a point though those are 71 avoid units since magic avoid and most don't have battalions and yes its combat art is.I can tell you from experience that this is incorrect. I avoid aux battles like the plague and most of my combat units reach S+ around ch19/20 on maddening(sometimes earlier, though that's rare; also no CF, clearly that's not happening there). If you're sufficiently focused and keep it going for the whole game, it's very doable. +10 hit(primarily on black eagles students unfortunately) is nice for sure, but with only light chip to provide outside of that, it's really not that remarkable. It's nice that she gets that at all, but again, I'd rather she'd keep killing things, as if I didn't value her ability to kill things, why would I even have gone for that build in the first place
I can relate, I disagree with my conclusions too sometimes. Not here though. Also okay fine geez . We might be running out of things to say though.
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2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
Then let's see at what point where Marianne ohko's while Dorothea stops, shall we?
Sure...
2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:I think Chapter 18 is a pretty good example of this. Here are the enemy stats for that chapter while here are their averages with their attack values.
As you can see Dorothea is still pulling her weight this late into the game by being able to Ohko pretty much every non mage enemy barring the Swordmasters. And even then, she can still take out them if you really wanted to without stat boosters by either using a Manuela adjutant or even using the Sublime Creator Sword, which typically doesn't see much use Byleth's hands in my experience. Really, it's not until Chapter 20 does Dorothea start to fall off in terms of being able to Ohko, which is also the point that pretty much every mage starts to fall thanks to enemy HP increasing dramatically by that point on onward.
The fact that she can remain competitive even without a 22 might Lance for the majority of the games really shows that there's not much of a gap in their combat. And yes, while Stealth isn't as useful as Canto, It's not like you need dedicated tank to make use of Stealth, as any unit with Impregnable Wall will make them completely ignore her as long as they're in range. Combined with the fact that she doesn't suffer from terrain penalties and can promote to a magic using class to make use Meteor Linked Attack as Magic users fall of gives her a competitive niche.
Well she OHKOs the Pals and Generals, and the Assassins(which is nice actually, even though level 36 is a stretch she still would if a bit lower)+ the archers/snipers. Marianne OHKOs everything but the bishops, the demonic beasts(against which the damage difference can still be a big help) and Caspar. That leaves the swormasters, the dark bishops, the dark mages, and the DK(with Assal). You're saying there's little difference; that's a difference.
A Manuela pairup was a bit of a stretch even back when we didn't know how Guard adjutants worked(and I meant, I used to bring those up a lot for Annette, so I'm not particularly happy about it). I'd say the same for the SCS, especially on a map where the beasts have dragon attribute.
"The fact that she can remain competitive even without a 22 might Lance for the majority of the games really shows that there's not much of a gap in their combat."
That's not competitive though, that's the rapier existing, in a chapter where most of the targets she'd struggle with are vulnerable to it. If we're looking for an actual differentiator, let's take Claude's paralogue. It's available form ch 17 onward, I'll assume level 34. With her 67 attack, she OHKOs...
... nothing. Not a single enemy on that map. Marianne cannot really deal with the warlocks, and of course doesn't OHKO the boss or the worms(still deals much higher damage), but she does the rest.
Okay, I retract the needing of a tank specifically. It's true, impregnable wall existing makes it much less of an issue.I'd rather push into swordfaire/lancefaire 2 to keep OHKOing in Shambala than go Meteor, and lose Stealth, though. The issue is that swordfaire 2 doesn't salvage Dorothea the way it does Marianne. And despite what we both said, that also allows the latter to deal with a bunch of targets in VW 22(archers/snipers of course but also grapplers, swordmasters, assassins and cavaly including Elites with Assal; note that I'm assuming a full on magic battalion, there's probably a reason why you're not but I'm not quite seeing it; that would make her damage with LoD 92 at Lv 40).
2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:So while Marianne might have her advantages, I don't think it's enough to claim an entire tier difference when Assassin Dororthea Ohko's a great many of the same enemies that Marianne is.
I still disagree with that conclusion. We don't have to keep going, though.
... as for the flight, I was thinking of Annette, which admittedly wasn't too relevant here. To be fair, the magic flying battalion did change things a bit and Hit +20 exists(so does the Luin), depending on your stance on auxiliary battles. But I still value how straightforward Paladin is in comparison, and going for both usually means no lancefaire 2.
--------------1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:I'm honestly rather skeptical about building either Dorothea or Marianne for magical combat arts as their optimum build. That means that all they'll be able to do is run around and try to OHKO at range 1, while having durability of paper and no skillset options. And it's a build that falls apart if they get even a bit magic-screwed (admittedly, I don't use stat boosters much, so they probably improve a bit if you do). Both of these characters shine because of their skillset options: 2HKO anything at huge range (thanks Thoron), Physic, linked attack synergy (especially for Dorothea with Meteor). And in Dorothea's case, it's not like her Agnea's Arrow even does that much less than her Silver Sword+ Hexblade... it's 4 less might, but actual mage jobs (e.g. Warlock) tend to have more mag than Assassin.
That's definitely arguable as well, yes. I really like it on Marianne still. It's very comparable to Vengeance Bernadetta for most of the game, even though the damage isn't quite as high and she needs a relic to deal with bosses even early on(also no Pass). Dorothea, well I've said my piece, I can agree that she's better off doing something else.
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23 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
Well lets test the numbers then, shall we? We'll use HBD as our example as that where Magic Combat arts shine the most by ignoring terrain and being able to consistently to ohko enemies with good hit rates. An average level 26 Dorothea has around 22 Magic. Combine that with:
22 Base Magic24 Mag +230 Fiendish Blow36 Gloucester Knights41 Sword Faire54 Silver Sword +61 Hexblade64 Magic StaffAs you can see, that's enough to Ohko every enemy on the map, while she can also avoid being targeted by them if you had say a dodgetank in range to make use of the terrain. Rapier is also found earlier in the game in Manuela's Paralogue or at the Pagan Altar if you want another.Now, while she will fall off thanks to begin unable to ohko enemies in the lategame, every Mage falls off at the end game due to how ridiculous the enemy HP Growth is. Like take a look at this example. So while it may not look that way on paper, Assassin Dorothea is pretty equal to Soul Blade / Frozen Lance Marianne in practice. As such they should really belong in the same tier together.Well, you used the Gloucester knights so there's some leeway, but you're kind of proving my point, to be honest; some of these OHKOs are exact, and she struggles to do the same on many targets in the next and previous chapter; every enemy has low res in 13.
Also I failed to mention that while axe and especially lance users can abuse relic might to compensate when they fall short, she cannot, because swords don't get high mt relics; she gets rapiers instead, which are target sensitive. The point wasn't that she will never OHKO anything, but Marianne deals 5 more damage with the same tools, with an evolutive combat art, relics, and a higher growth. It's not an exaggeration to say that once these builds stop killing, they struggle to be of any use, so I still disagree that there's no meaningful difference here. Needing a tank around to perform just cannot be argue not to be a limitation in my eye either, and stealth isn't a proper replacement for canto, or especially not for +2 mov(possibly +3) or even flight.Also yes, the last few chapters are extremely harsh on magic damage dealers, even top end ones(Luna notwithstanding); they're the exception rather than the norm, however. Case in point, between chapter 13 and 20, enemy grapplers get +9 HP +6 Res, so you need +15 damage in 7 chapters to continue ORKOing, aka a bit over +2 damage a chapter. Then from 20 to 22, they get +8 HP +4 Res, so you need +6 a chapter. In one case it's possible to keep up if you were ahead(which Dorothea isn't, and that's the problem), in the other it's just not a thing.
I forgot that Rapiers were available at the altar(Manuela's paralogue I did, I just was unsure if there were any others earlier). That admittedly does seem pretty helpful for her.
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19 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
Like Hexblade Dorothea may not look that impressive on paper, but add on the fact that she can use effective weapons such as the Rapier and that Assassins that don't get targeted when there's any other target in range, Marianne doesn't really justify being put up tier imo.
Lower reach, no canto for flexibility if nothing else, and difficulties reaching OHKO numbers on anything the rapier isn't effective against(due to Hexblade, swords, and herself being on the weaker side) still make a pretty big difference imo. Haven't actively checked the numbers, though. Don't even remember when rapiers become available, which could affect her early-midgame bosskilling, and that matters considering these builds are pretty good at it usually.
Also I'll be the first to say that stealth is great, but you do need to play around it in ways that aren't always the most practical.
Honestly magic assassin works quite a bit better if you get to levin sword doubling thresholds from my experience. The problem being that those are very high.I'll say that I'm at worst in general agreement with the rest of what you've been saying, though. Well, maybe I disagree a bit on Bernie(it's just crazy to me how big a bump she seems to have gotten in people's minds within the past few months, when her most popular build was discovered very early on. I get that Rengor+Mekkah talking at once can reach far, but dang)... which is whatever.
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It's kind of a crazy story, people usually don't believe me when I say this
Basically
I ate whenever hungry
I slept whenever tiredAnd boom here I am!
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51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:
It'd take him 660 Reason exp to go from C Reason -> B+ Reason to have chance of certifying as a Warlock for +2 Magic. Considering that he wants B Lances, B Authorithy, and C Riding at the very minimum, it can be tough to fit in all of that in a timely manner . Especially if you want B Faith for Ward like TC does.
Yeah, that's why it's debatable imo. A +2 base will serve him for the remainder of the game but it's a relatively tall order. It doesn't necessarily hurt his performance much to be a warlock for a short time, it's initially a potent OHKO pick... but then again, nor do 2 less points of magic throughout, and there's potentially the issue of lancefaire 2.
... and I don't want Ward like TC does. Edit: That came off wrong. No offense TC, I just don't think Ward is even close to being worth the investment. We disagree on a lot really, but that's no reason for me to be a douche. My bad.51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:The Steel Lance remark was refering to when Lorenez was a mage. By the the time he becomes a Warlock, Silver Lances still manages outdamage Ragnarock even considering Black Tomefaire thanks to it's 30% Dex Scaling.
I meant for his time as warlock, but I guess I should have been clearer. As for Silver, that's assuming he's at B lances, and if he's at B lances, chances are he can savescum for Paladin already.
All of this is within a relatively small pocket of time considering he gets Ragnarok at B. It was mostly just a comment in passing. -
1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:
It really doesn't make that much of a difference for Lorenz since he already has a decent a growth. It only makes a 2 point difference for him on average.
Yeah, I'm aware. But 2 points are 2 points. Would you argument have been exactly the same if that was his natural average, considering his p.skill?
"Frozen Lance will be stronger than Ragnarok with a Steel Lance + anyways."
On warlock at level ~20, not quite. And range is nice. -
15 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:
Having a Dex % chance of halving damage
Has that been verified yet? That relic skills scale off of stats the same way their regular versions do?
15 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:Speaking of Marianne, what is Lorenz doing that makes his contributions worth more than the +4 base magic she comes with on top of learning Frozen Lance faster as budding talent rather than at C+ Lances? You can also see the rather substantial difference Magic in the paladin example I've posted above. And with how quickly maddening inflates HP, Lorenz will stop ohkoing very quickly into the timeskip while Marianne will not until the very tail end of the game.
That's basically why Lorenz usually wants to unlock Warlock to bump his base up(and is really happy his p.skill is what it is). This keeps him in the OHKO game for quite a bit longer. But, it's a bit of a commitment and means he'll likely get to paladin slightly later. At least he'll have Ragnarok to bide his time.
... it's probably debatable, actually. -
It doesn't detract from my sleep(few things do as a matter of fact), but I do dislike graphic violence in particular, especially since images get burned into my mind for years depressingly easily, and said mind really likes to go dark places whenever I'm inactive. And yeah I don't find fear enjoyable either, although it's not to the point where I cannot deal with it. I just don't voluntarily go for that type of entertainment.
To be frank there's also the issue that I don't see a strong justification to getting "over it". I can/want to work on mental barriers of mine usually, but when it comes to horror in general I have a really hard time finding what exactly should be enjoyable about it(this is especially true for gore). Not trying to sound close-minded or critical but... yeah, idk.
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I gave the game the benefit of the doubt, but they definitely didn't do a good job. Apart from the new student designs; more of that in the future, please(just apply it after class changing if there's no opportunity in the story).
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4 hours ago, Owns said:
Well I can't argue with 1HKO + canto. Awesome. In my current maddening run, only in CH 2 so far, I've been building Annette mainly as a rally bot. Her rally has been excellent so far, but I guess a unit that can 1hko is always better than one who mainly supports. Thoughts on this?
Haven't tried the build myself so I'll refrain from saying too much, but it's very easy to underestimate magic combat arts. They're among the strongest damage sources in the game and the accuracy formula favors them a ton. Those builds usually don't have an enemy phase at all though, for what it's worth on maddening.
Better or worse than a rallybot, that's arguable, but then again as you can see in his skillset, she can do both. -
22 hours ago, Agro said:
t's helpful to have a mindset of "how can I manipulate these units so that I neutralise all threats in one turn?" so that you can advance your frail units without fear of them dying. Failing that, working out which enemies you can leave alive, or how to position your units just right such that the correct units are in/out of range. Liberal use of combat arts, brave weapons and Hero Relics will be helpful in this regard as well.
I'll definitely second this as well, in fact, disregard everything I say next if that's what it takes for the above to stick.
... I'm still gonna talk, though.It's important to point out that what being "good" means can be a bit debatable here. Fire Emblem games, once you understand them, are lenient at their core, likely for the sake of accessibility. Pushed to the extreme, this leads to low-turncount clears, or even 0% growth rates runs(I assume you're familiar since you spoke of efficiency but just in case, this involves modifying the game so that level ups don't grant stats, ever, for anyone), but I'd say that in general, any high-end run follows a comparable philosophy: do more with less. So if you want to progress, I'd say restrict yourself little by little, in any way you see fit, put yourself in situations where crutches aren't the solution, where there's no easy way out. Things that carried you through before, maybe don't use them at all next time.
Another thing; you spoke of time a bunch. Now I don't know how much of that was in game turns vs real time exactly but, I will point out, the dirty little secret of this franchise is that things can also get very, very time consuming the better you play, because there's a ton of planning involved. If to you, getting better is tied to playing faster, then turtling(the playstyle you described basically) is pretty much exactly what you want to be doing.
... and then there's excelling at the game, which mostly involves knowledge and a lot of exploiting. If that's what you're aiming for, basically read, read, read, learn. Play also, but mostly read. It's a one time thing for the most part, most FE games are exploited in comparable ways. Unit that starts off strong? Use that. Warp? Use that. Units with more movement, flight? Use those. 1-2 range? Doesn't apply as much for 3H, but use that. Dancer? Use it. Etc.
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Ok, I won't lie, this is not necessarily how I go about picking classes in 3H in particular and many would tell you that growths matter relatively little there compared to other FE games. With that being said, it's a handy tool to have for cross referencing and making decisions faster since these things are still pretty big factors, obviously. So in that regard it's pretty nice.
As you said, the logical next step would be to take class modifiers into account, as they're relevant here and I figure could be included organically? Character bases I don't think are necessarily a priority in comparison, although that also matters a bunch. Finally class bases play some role for certain characters/builds(armor knight to raise def being the big prominent example), though that's a very minor omission, since they tend to only take effect for classes the character probably shouldn't be in in the first place(with exceptions, like Lorenz).
Also a smaller thing which might be a result of me misunderstanding the intent but, maybe don't make the ratings of both intermediate and advanced ratings a shade of orange. That's all I've got in terms of visuals, though.
Thanks for sharing!
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8 hours ago, eclipse said:
You get to be a forum mod, and have to decide whether you want to deal with asinine insults hurled your way, or having your forum's reputation tank because of some immature brats.
Teehee.
... I only came here to say Radiant Dawn, yes I am an extremely funny individual thanks for noticing.
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It's difficult to cut anything from the game as is, as every route has a pretty good reason for existing. SS could maybe be a candidate if siding with Edelgard wasn't framed as such a contentious choice, I suppose, but that's about it. Trashing VW in particular could only be a good idea if the Alliance was scrapped as well(or at least greatly minimized).
Otherwise, making any of the three lords routes dlc would greatly undermine the premise of the game(and would probably have been received very poorly after Fates) so I don't think that's a good idea either.... this thread reminded me that VW gets progressively less and less credit from the community as time goes on, and I think that's a shame. I'll spare you the wall of text, though. Maybe.
Three Houses has now been out for one year! How have your opinions on it changed since release?
in Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Posted
People who don't play a lot of strategy games(which is most, niche genre and stuff) don't have the same expectations as us hardcore fans. Awakening made that all too clear.
Also, that's precisely the thing. The award wasn't "which of these strategy games is the most strategic", but rather "which is the best overall between the games that roughly fit the criteria".