Cysx
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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
Not all, but some (most?) definitely are. I've never sat down and made a list. (Has anyone?)
Yeah, there's been a bunch. Do I still have that lying around...(I didn't)
Ashe gains 5 levels instead on GD and Church, and I still haven't verified Lorenz on BL/Church, but from what I recall it was around the same.
Also I've been told that on normal mode the level of students is pushed to at least 20 no matter what. -
Well the issue is that auto-tutoring is bad to begin with(you know how tutoring has "Good" "Great" and "Perfect" results, right? Well last time I checked, which was a while ago admittedly, when it comes to auto-tutoring only the "Good" result exists), but on top of that, resting would only get you half motivation in a majority of cases. Roughly, this should halve your wexp gains from the monastery on your main skill, which obviously can be pretty hurtful. Auto-tutoring will also never raise movement proficiencies afaik.
Outside of that, you do also miss out on:
- Farming for stat boosters
- Getting weapon ranks for Byleth period
- Recruiting students
- A considerable amount of free stuff and a lot of money
- Likely a bunch of other things I'm not remembering right nowSo, it would definitely hurt quite a bit. Wouldn't make the thing unbeatable even on Maddening though, I don't think. But since the name of the game is "prevail, or turtle", let's just say you likely wouldn't be winning any LTC contest.
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5 hours ago, AxelVDP said:
sword+axes*
I don't think any character focuses on a movement type (or armor for that matter). Ingrid starts at higher flying rank only because the game gives you the minimum rank requirement for the class they are in, not because she actively trains in it
Well for her D is just her base period.
In most cases waiting for ch 6 to recruit(which translates to lv 11 for characters) will result in a few points of stat boosts, so while you do lose on wexp, it can be worth doing it. You will however lose out on Str/Spd/Mag +2 unless you go back for them; then if you wait more, you may get more stats but will miss out on getting intermediate class exp, which is almost never a good idea as a result of intermediate masteries being among the best in the game. And past the first couple chapters, non recruited students gain much less wexp than the ones you tutored, so it only gets worse the longer you wait.
So basically... yeah, it's rarely worth waiting, ultimately. Only, for certain characters it's not too terrible, they can still function roughly the same; and it's not like you can reasonably recruit everyone early.
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On 10/12/2019 at 2:51 PM, Ingrid Brandl Galatea said:
Sigh... I am doing this chapter in Golden Deer route right now, and honestly I am even more screwed right now than I was in Blue Lions. I totally forgot to set equipment and skills in chapter 12. Byleth neither got sword breaker nor she got a thunder sword which would be helpful against enemies in forest tiles. The worst is that Byleth is really BAD because slow. Speed wings cannot fix it. And Claude has no enemy phase, will be ORKO'ed by pretty much everyone. I have no idea how to come through this chapter.
Make use of the Failnaught's combat art, it will allow Claude to deal damage to one target on enemy phase, even snipers, since they cannot hit him. And do use his gambit as well. You can keep Byleth hidden and rely only on Claude for the first few turns if needed.
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Claude's is pretty annoying. 4 same turn wyvern reinforcements start popping every two turns from turn 5 I believe, and their range covers a majority or the south and west of the map, which is where most of your units will be, because there's sand everywhere and they can't take an attack from the boss; it's actually almost comical how specific the safe zone is. Then considering the boss is well defended and takes effort to take down, I think you're pretty much supposed to fail your first attempt if you're unaware, because even with divine pulse your healer/dancer units are stuck in the sand with nowhere to escape the looming ORKO even when going back several turns.
Ingrid/Dorothea can be made very, very difficult if you choose to rout it. But then again you don't have to.
Ferdinand/Lysithea is just in general a tough one with a lot going on and limited opportunity to trivialize it.
Felix's can be tricky if you care about the best rewards. But it's kill boss.
Alois/Shamir's surprised me, because I did it extremely late and it still offered considerable resistance. But again, kill boss.
Those I'd qualify as "hard". As for the easy ones...
Sylvain's just wasn't that tough. Sothis' wasn't either, although same turn reinforcements can easily trip you, I just remembered them.
Seteth/Flayn I agree is among the easiest. Catherine/Ashe requires knowledge of the map, but if you have that it's not that difficult, there just aren't that many enemies in your way overall.
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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
On maps which are actually tough I definitely find myself taking damage. Some of that's Enemy Phase, some of that is from counters (the strategies you say reduce them considerably and are good, but they're hard to avoid entirely; in particular brave effects are rare in the first half of the game and some enemies are bulky enough to survive them especially from units with less exceptional str). The difference between Maddening and Hard is a that on Hard a few chippy things getting through isn't a big deal; on Maddening it's not uncommon to be 2HKOed so you'll need patching up. Obviously some maps are easier and I take hardly any damage, but I feel my team comp doesn't really matter for those!
Since the good healers tend to have solid combat as well, it's not like you're giving up much to use one. You pretty much want at least two mages to hold Thyrsus and Caduceus, might as well choose ones who are good at healing (and/or provide Meteor support).
I will say that Physic is very useful from the moment you get it to ~2/3rds of part 1, precisely because it is indeed difficult to avoid damage for a bigger part of the cast. Then you start getting more tools to avoid counters, then you stop doubling so it becomes a worst choice. Ultimately it gets to a point where many units aren't really safer at max health than when injured, too.
I feel like I'm unwillingly making an argument against healing in general though, which is not exactly the point. As I said, units will get hurt on enemy phase and will preferably require healing not to die, on the next enemy phase. But from there it is just turning into Fortify vs Physic again, and I mean... what can I even add really?To be honest I find it rare for healers to be in a position where they can provide anything beyond chip, and chip past the earlygame does not qualify as solid combat to me. Granted, even for pure mages it gets tough to OHKO after a while.
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On 10/11/2019 at 2:39 PM, Silly said:
If you mostly keep students motivated through food for the first half of the pre-timeskip, you end up building up a lot of free stuff that you can give them to keep students happy.
You have flowers every week (which you should basically exclusively be planting), you have buyable gifts (you can at the very least buy the cheap ones), you have lost items, and you have gifts that you get for completing quests. Also a few other random mechanics that incidentally boost motivation.
Later on post-timeskip, you can go back to eating if you really want to (say you ran out of gifts to sustain keeping everyone happy). By this point Byleth should have more than enough activity points, and nothing important to spend faculty training on, so you have a ton of free time to do whatever you want.
Oh yeah, post timeskip is completely irrelevant here.
I don't know, I guess I really need to just try it myself, my perception of how much flowers you end up with might be wrong. It's not that I don't believe you but I can't help but feel like this is a path, as opposed to the path, you know. Time will tell, ultimately.15 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:Everyone takes significant damage on Maddening so healing is really useful, and not having it stuck to 4 move + 1 range is invaluable.
Hm...
... I don't think taking damage period is optimal on Maddening. Outside of EP of course, but on PP... You have so many tools to kill or deal damage safely, between gauntlets, brave combat arts, magic combat arts, gambits... and then of course there's Hunter's volley and brave weapons, post timeskip.
Basically I don't think in a majority of cases you'll end up in situations where a unit being hurt means they cannot fight, or even kill for that turn. At least I basically never ran in that situation, and I only run one healer at all times. It's not to gloat, but considering I don't use stat boosters at all, I can only assume that I'm making the game harder on myself to an extent, too.Even disregarding that, deploying an unit that heals others so they can not die, as opposed to one that can at the very least soften so they can kill instead... Of course I'm simplifying, but eh.
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7 hours ago, Silly said:
snip
All right, thanks for the explanation. I was a bit more systematic with my approach but we had reached similar results.
The part where you stop meals entirely is where I don't follow, though. Keeping, say, six students motivated takes 24 motivation. While there are monthly gifts, supports, the monthly professor question to consider, and the odd student likes some of the flowers you're getting, that's still a lot to keep up on a, say 10 flowers/per week yield, even though in my experience that's optimistic. And then you have a surplus for support grinding?
While end of month weekends can compensate, they're generally used to run paralogues. Which are proportional in amount to your recruitments in the first place, but yeah. That is not necessarily a slight however, it shouldn't make things impossible; however to me it still feels like eating one or two meals per week is warranted in that regard. Also I'd definitely advise cooking from the get-go, the first chapters are when the bonus makes the biggest difference. It can be challenging getting the fish but it's worth it.Also Month 8 only has 3 weekends despite having 3 tutoring sessions. Not nitpicking because it doesn't really change anything, it's just easy to forget -
1 hour ago, Cor Leonis said:
I think it's important to point out the grind isn't infinite (99 Turn limit abuse for WEXP and class mastery notwithstanding; I can't defend anyone doing that), and the Maddening EXP nerf pretty much hard caps your Level. After a Battle session, I can confirm your EXP comes crashing to a halt once you start catching up to the recommended levels. Support spellcasters can get ahead due to an oversight in their EXP formula, but most support units already do their job effectively by the time you get A+ rank Professor Level.
It's true that it's not that beneficial for exp on maddening, though the catching up aspect alone can be pretty useful considering how many maps of this game can be trivialized, especially post timeskip... and the class exp alone can be a pretty big game changer. Normally it's a commitment to obtain Wrath + Vantage, for example, same for Quick Riposte.
It's not simple, I'll give you that. -
19 minutes ago, Silly said:
There are not very many good ways to spend activity points, so you will often have a good number of points to spare on faculty training.
- Cooking is extremely good but is limited to once per explore.
- Arena is fairly good post-timeskip, but its rewards are less significant pre-timeskip. It does give you good professor exp if you want that though. I usually only do this if I have extra points to spare.
- Eating is pretty pointless past the first half of the pre-timeskip due to how easily obtainable gifts are.
- Cathedral gives such little bonuses that it's not super important to do.
- +1 Charm from tea time is a very negligible increase in stats, and isn't that relevant except on Byleth who can stack it many times. But Byleth should already have a ton of charm because you get a free tea time every birthday.
With some reasonable professor level optimization, it's very realistic that by the time the timeskip happens Byleth has Wyvern Lord requirements + B Authority + C Armor + C Bows, or possibly better.
If you want to, you can savescum for the students you particularly care about to ensure you recruit them at the optimal time. But the other students you can just boost their rank to B when you have spare gifts and then just let them eventually come to you. You might not recruit them this month but you have plenty of time to do so.
It helps that a fair number of students that you probably care about recruiting have requirements that Wyvern Byleth will probably meet at some point naturally, so you don't need to rely on RNG at all to recruit them. Ferdinand, Ingrid, Sylvain (for female Byleth), Mercedes, Hilda, and Leonie are all good units that should be close to zero opportunity cost to recruit via weapon ranks.
To be honest, letting the students come to you doesn't seem like that good an idea, on average. You're decently likely to never get some, and you probably went for them for a reason, thus having no control over their join time is impractical.
Also I don't think one can get ranks much better than what you've displayed. That should take roughly 140 activity points without accounting for great results or battle. If you do nothing but faculty training the moment it's unlocked, I'd say you a generous estimation would be around... 140 sessions of it, until the timeskip. So it's not the absolute limit, but pretty close.
That being said I don't really see a reason not to do it either, apart from gimping the amount of students you can tutor early on. But if you're low manning in the first place...That being said, am I right to assume you didn't recruit many people in that playthrough? Keeping 5+ students at full motivation + obtaining supports only through gifts... that doesn't sound possible.
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38 minutes ago, Silly said:
I think you're really overestimating how difficult it is to recruit students. It's not super hard to do full recruitment even of efficiency. Just explore a lot, plant flowers at every opportunity (something you should be doing anyways), and buy the cheap gifts every month.
To be fair, I do think establishing that the player will save scum their way through B rank recruitment for more than a couple students would be a consequence of unreasonable expectations. On a tutoring week with loading taken into account, every attempt takes I'd say around 2 minutes, and the odds aren't good.
Unless I've been doing it incorrectly or something. -
1 hour ago, Cor Leonis said:
Is there any particular reason we're acting as if selecting Battle instead of Explore isn't a legitimate form of play? Explore mostly becomes useless outside of boosting Motivation and cooking Bullheads after you hit A+ rank Professor Level. Random stat boosters from gardening helps but isn't strictly necessary, and reclassing Byleth is really overrated since Enlightened One gets the job done and lets you focus on swords. Using the last week of the month to do whatever Paralogues or quests you have available and filling in the gaps with standard auxiliary battles is a great use of resources. It builds up your Renown for statue boosts and keeps your team's EXP and class mastery from lagging behind. This isn't Normal mode where you can spam free auxiliary battles until you're maxed.
I wouldn't say it's illegitimate so much as way too good actually, at least post-timeskip. While exploring is tied to a bunch of key mechanics in the game and thus is difficult to strike despite being really good as well.
Auxiliary battles are pretty much grinding. Three battles a pop is not a harsh enough limitation to stop it from being that; even two probably wouldn't be despite missing out on exploration. That's especially true on maddening, where they're considerably easier than the rest of the game.
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1 hour ago, Silly said:
due to her base A bow rank she will likely be the only unit you have that can use a Silver Bow for a while.
That's B rank though, many should be getting close if not already be there; and silver isn't freely available at that point unless you focused on prof level really hard. Unless she comes with one, I don't remember this much.
2 hours ago, Shiki said:The wands are fairly inconsequential, Levin Sword is buyable later and more of a gimmick.
It's possible to warp someone to the March Ring and skip the right part of the chapter while you stride towards DK. Buttbh the March Ring costs probably too many turns as it is worth.The wands are really good for people who kill with magic combat arts, and obviously for mages. You do get two more but it's nice to grab those. They're not essential, admittedly.
And yes, warp can be used that's way. It's a slight time saver.
The march ring is probably the best accessory in the game(Thyrsus being another contender)2 hours ago, Shiki said:... where are you getting the Dancer from? Warp is absolutely relevant to reach Solon.
Whoops, very true. Let's see then...
... He is 14 spaces away. So no, Warp isn't.
With that being said, you can't attack the boss before turn 3, can you? That's a genuine question.2 hours ago, Shiki said:There are beasts on the NW and NE part which is not in range of strided fliers. You can reach one with a Dancer but for the other Warp is your best bet.
Yes, but a single unit cannot one turn them. Aka you're providing one more attack and it's not guaranteed to save a turn at all.
2 hours ago, Shiki said:It's kill boss and warping a strided flier towards the boss cuts at least a turn.
All right then, boss is 17 spaces away... yes, it cuts a turn.
2 hours ago, Shiki said:On the other hand Warp enables the same thing as flying + stride so how does that speak against it?
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Because there's no opportunity cost to stride as opposed to recruiting Lysithea early? And we're discussing about how good of a recruit she is?2 hours ago, Shiki said:Warping Ingrid save turns regardless though.
Not necessarily. She needs a boost to movement to reach the goal without triggering reinforcements that are guaranteed to kill her. Giving her an early lead only means she'll have to wait.
She could bait said reinforcements and then go around them I suppose, but that doesn't sound exceedingly faster.
... and it doesn't save "turns". At best it saves one.2 hours ago, Shiki said:Actually no. Killing the bosses on the exits makes it easy to manipulate the central thieves to move towards a specific one which will save turns. Bonus points for clumping up and making them susceptible to a gambit wipe.
I've never seen them not move northeast even when they had a choice and the boss was dead(which obviously is the worst case scenario), but all right, it can reasonably save one turn.
You've kind of jumped right into the trap I didn't intend to put there thus far though; is this an ltc tier list? Does saving one turn on any map actually matter?
2 hours ago, Shiki said:Actually no. Killing the bosses on the exits makes it easy to manipulate the central thieves to move towards a specific one which will save turns. Bonus points for clumping up and making them susceptible to a gambit wipe.
No point, the battalion is bad by then. The only question is whether or not your Byleth will be at the appropriate level/ supportrank to recruit Shamir immediately, which is not a given at all.
2 hours ago, Shiki said:Every paralogue except Ashe+Catherine and Seteth+Flayn is unlocked by month 8 so you actually don't have a Dancer at this point. Never mind you get your Dancer at Week 3 so technically even those two have not a Dancer.
You are absolutely right, I was mistaken on the month in which the contest occurs.
... that being said, let's not pretend for a second people run their paralogues on anything else than the last week.... though that actually doesn't change any of my points since dancing wasn't necessary, so moving on.
2 hours ago, Shiki said:On the flip side why should one not take account of it? Lysithea for Warp use doesn't single her out of Thyrsus nor does she monopolize its use over others.
This doesn't make any sense. Well, that's fair enough, but now the question is, are the rare times she'll get to use Thyrsus as an underleveled Bishop/Gremory really that much of a positive?
2 hours ago, Shiki said:It astounds me that you are not realizing what kind of logic fallacy you're commiting here.
So Marianne is supposedly bad because you have a healer on the other routes. Even though she can basically do same thing as your current healer. Never mind that she will be a higher level than your current one as the exp gain of healers is low.
Guess I have to demote Mercedes too considering she has the same issue where a 2nd healer is not required. Yes, the first part is what I am saying. When looking to recruit a character, you want to know how much they bring to the party; the fact of the matter is, Marianne doesn't bring that much, because you'll already have a physic healer and don't direly need two, there's nothing complicated about what I'm saying, whether you agree with it or not.
Exp gain of healers isn't low.
I'm gonna say this once and only once; this is not a battle, I'm not here to fight you.
Edit: I guess I shouldn't just drop that without explanation, though: I feel that ego is taking a larger place than it should in my opinion, in this exchange.
If I'm wrong about that, then that's my bad and I apologize.2 hours ago, Shiki said:6 range. Cool.
All the mounted units have already moved 11-13 spaces away from her though. What move have Healers again? 4.
Physic is better because of its range. You can actually reach your wounded units which is something mages in this game struggle to do. Fortify is not that great and you are grossly overestimating.
Right, how much does a strided bishop have? 9 move. So that's 15 range on turn one. Next turn? Your riders aren't strided, so they can move 7-8 range away, making it a 18 to 21 total, so at worst, assuming in neither case they cantoed a single space back and went their full move, you may have some of them out of range, at first, until more range comes in. And considering only Paladin has 8 move until master tier, at which point you'll be dealing with a Gremory at ~8 range instead...
Fortify allows the healing of more than one unit as a single action(and again, heals more). That is extremely valuable no matter how you look at it. You do have to push against its max range, but it's completely possible.2 hours ago, Shiki said:It's perfectly reflected.
Using a gambit wastes a unit's turn and there are certaintly better things to do then to apply a weak safety net. It is also bold to assume that Vengeance is the strongest art when Swift Strikes with Relic weapons, Atrocity and Raging Storm exists which require no setup to begin with.You can't both say that blessing is and isn't valuable in the same breath, and I think it's generally accepted that it is, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.
I did say strongest, not best. Vengeance is (2 + HP lost) damage. It can easily reach >+40 damage post timeskip, and it keeps going up as you keep getting more HP. No other combat art gets that far, not even Atrocity.
39 minutes ago, Shiki said:No, she joins with A rank. Yes, her and Catherine are filthy cheaters
Yeah yeah, I meant the silver bow is B rank.
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11 hours ago, Shiki said:
Considering that Lysithea has warp monopoly at minimum for 4 chapters that puts her far above her.
It does. But not at the top.
11 hours ago, Shiki said:The fastest skips require Stride and Warp so that doesn't say much. Not to mention early on you only get a single Stride battalion which makes earlier Warp access even more important for efficent clears.
I think this deserves a chapter by chapter analysis. Let's assume Warp is obtained before ch6 for Lysithea, while Manuella can get it before ch 10(she needs 536 wexp if recruited early, that's between six and seven weeks with a solo focus. There are two weeks she gets access to on month 8, two on month 9, and 3 on month 10. So recruiting Lysithea provides warp for:
Ch 6: Allows jumping straight to the DK, genuinely useful. However, you likely at least want the march ring in an average run, and there are two stealable magic wands + a levin sword scattered about. Getting the march ring at the very least will take a handful of turns considering how out of the way it is. Depends where your priorities lie.
ch 7: Considering how wide the map is and there being two bosses, ~5 range warp only provides a marginal improvement. Two warpers can be a different story on BE; if my math is correct, this is close but unlikely unless you save scum Linhardt's tutoring.
Ch 8: Dancing + Stride provides a straight shot to the boss for any flier. Warp isn't needed.
Ch 9: Demonic beast chapter, pretty short no matter what. Warping can potentially save a turn, but it's not guaranteed. It makes very limited difference.
Then looking at the available paralogues:
Dedue: Haven't played that one on maddening. Warp gives access to the left part, but so does flying, and the best reward requirement is relatively lax. Can't say for certain though.
Lorenz: Boss is 13 spaces away from your closest deployment range. By that point you should have several reposition skills. Stride is enough and Warp does not serve any meaningful purpose.
Dorothea&Ingrid: Wide map that cannot be 1 turned, and where Lysithea will struggle to get in a position where she can provide the push to end the map due to low move. Difficult to say for sure, but initially I'd say very limited utility.
Sylvain: Rout map, only marginal utility from Warp.
Alois&Shamir: Boss is 16 spaces away from the closest deployment slot. Warp saves 1 turn as a result; there is a caveat however; you need to have Shamir recruited by ch7 for this paralogue to be accessible before you get a dancer. If you don't, then dance + stride is enough.
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From that point on, you have a dancer
----Sothis: Boss kill with three health bars. I'm unsure whether or not this one can be one turned with the use of warp. 2 turns without it seems reasonable. Can't say.
Ignatz&Raphael: Boss is in reach of flying + stride.
Felix: Pretty good one time utility to clear the south or southeast boss before the reinforcements start popping. Not indispensable but can save a turn or two.
Manuela&Hanneman: Boss is in reach of flying + stride.
Seteth&Flayn: Can be useful to reach the top left boss on turn 1. Dance + stride should be able to reach the other one, ie warp allows a 1 turn clear as opposed to a 2 turns one.
Catherine&Ashe: Actually unsure if this one is rout or defeat the bosses. If it's the latter, top left boss is ~12 spaces away with no obstacles, lower right is 13 spaces away, +1 for both if you want to stride them at once by targetting Rhea. With a dancer for the lower right and torches for vision, warp isn't necessary to 1 turn.
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So overall, does early warp have utility, yes, definitely. But it very rarely saves more than one turn strictly in an ltc context, which is very specific. Could also have counted Flayn for the times where rescue + stride is enough, eh.
Outside of ltc, it's mostly a slight convenience at that point in the game. Thus I still say you put her too high.11 hours ago, Shiki said:Considering recruiting past Ch.5 is a trivial matter I don't see why are you assuming Lysithea has not Thyrsus.
It's interesting because my question instead is: why would she? Especially if she's primarily used for warp. It's in no way tied to her and Lorenz is not a free recruit. Assuming she gets it is an unfair advantage.
11 hours ago, Shiki said:That's a nice pitfall you have here. So because you already have a unit that covers a niche makes a similar good unit worthless. Wat.
Guess Franz is trash because Seth exists. That's obviously not true. It's not hard to understand that certain niches don't need to be filled twice, especially not in a context where you can have fortify. If your question is "does Marianne add a lot to any team(as a healer)", my answer is a straight no.
Fortify doesn't have low range. Your average Mercedes starts with 6 fortify range(when she gets it), meaning she covers 82 spaces around her at once, and grows to about 10 range over the course of the game. If you keep her positioned in between units, she covers your entire team in a majority of situations, not to mention fortify heals more. Thinking Physic is better past the early midgame makes no sense to me. It remains useful to reach stragglers, but Fortify covers a massive part of its utility and also provides a lot more, as well as twice the exp per use to increase its own range faste. If you have a choice between spending a deployment slot on a unit with Physic or one with Fortify, in my mind there's no question, and frankly I don't see how there is in yours.
Thoron access is nice but 3 range chip isn't that special(four once you get the Caduceus is another thing, but will she get it over your main magic users?). Siege tomes are exceedingly rare and by the point they show up you have Manuela for free for a long time.11 hours ago, Shiki said:Rallying is very good on Maddening but actual units are simply better. Annette doesn't do anything beyond that as her stats are bad and her spell list offers nothing.
Ignatz is similar. He has only Rally Spd but Deadeye + his talent can be fairly useful to trigger the boss in Ch.5 or aggro the AI.Considering I rarely use rallying myself, I'm in no position to argue against this, even though I see the benefits.
Ignatz doesn't get Deadeye.11 hours ago, Shiki said:Other units can kill without relying on elaborate setups. Vengeance is very overrated and without Blessing her lack of durability will get her killed.
Others, but not all of them, I'm not asking you to put her at the top, just recognize her ability as a combat unit, which her current placement doesn't reflect at all. And there is nothing elaborate about using a gambit on turn 1. Vengeance is factually the strongest art in the game by miles, and a majority of characters lack durability on Maddening, getting ORKOed is exceedingly common. It is a weakness that this setup stops her from taking advantage of blessing as a survival tool, admittedly. But in a game with canto it's not that hard to make her kills safe.
11 hours ago, Shiki said:He is a student who has a recruitment lock till Ch.5 and his stats aren't even that great either. That's pretty bad.
PBV is good and so are his many skill preferences but compared to everyone above him there is very little he brings to the table in exchange for his downsides. At the very least Raphael has some uses with Rally Str and being rather bulky (though much worse than Dedue or Catherine).Cyril is a free combat unit that kills for almost the entire game assuming you tutor him on his join month, (at worse, he provides 3 range chip for a month). That is not something every character above him can say, so it's inane to put him that low. But again I don't see the point of him even being on the list, so I'll drop this.
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41 minutes ago, Lunarly said:
Edit - I'd bump Ashe up, he is the only way you can get Boots early on in SS route (or at all in CF route) since Part 1 paralogues only require 1 of the 2 units to unlock them.
That's absolutely fair, I forgot about that.
Apparently it's not in the rules anyway, but yeah, I agree for what it's worth. -
I'm not sure there's that much of a point to listing the non students here, considering their recruitment has no opportunity cost and there's no, you know, other version of themselves. Basically they're at the exact same place as on a regular tier list really.
Hilda could actually use a split positioning, considering she can only join late on Church, one of the only two routes she's recruitable in. Granted she's not bad if obtained late, but you kind of want death blow on her so that she keeps killing with braves for longer, and in Church that's not really an option.
Lysithea is too high. She's good but she's not the best recruit in the game. Keep in mind you get a free warp recruit in Manuela, and early on stride covers most of the utility warp would in other games. Ch 5 aside, but as you said she will likely not get there by then as a recruit. Recruiting Lysithea alone also implies Lysithea without Thyrsus, and that's considerably less impressive.
Ingrid's a bit high.
Marianne is way high, she provides no utility your resident healer doesn't(unless you build her for lance combat but I don't think that's a thing in this community yet)
Mercedes is quite a bit too low. She's the best healer in the game, plain and simple. She has a place on almost any team.
Annette is too low, and I don't just say that because she's Annette. She was a meh recruit on hard, but rallies help a lot on maddening, and she's the best rallybot in the game.
Ignatz is a comparable case. Worse as a rallybot, but still a valuable one, he's too low.
Ashe is in twice.
Also I'd argue he's too high, but I guess his passive is nice to have around, and his focuses are in the right places.Bernadetta is too low. She gets one of the best arts in the game, vengeance. She becomes extremely good at killing stuff once you get to abuse blessing to inflate its damage.
Cyril is too low, but considering I said he doesn't belong in the list in the first place, eh.
If you want the Thyrsus, you need Lorenz, no way around it. That being said, as far as performance goes he's about right where he belongs, if only because he spends a third of the timeskip unavailable on 2/3 routes. So, it's your call.
In general I think paralogue access should factor into this,
though I didn't take it into account myself here.It's not that rare for me to recruit primarily for that, since they grant exp, loot, and among the best battalions in the game. -
15 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:
Paladin Marianne sounds decent enough, but I’m assuming you’d need to recruit Mercedes or Lindhardt to have a Physic user, right? That sounds fine since they’re both better utility units than her anyway. GD has the same important Rallies, but the units that have it are both fairly poor at combat. Rally Speed is good enough to warrant a slot without being a good unit otherwise imo, but I don’t think Rally Strength on its own is. Annette is at least ok, and she saves a deployment slot in comparison. Not really a huge deal early, but I’d still put it as a net advantage for BL in the long run.
I see what you mean with the Bolting thing now. I could see a use for that although idk if that’s worth losing her combat capability. I’d rather use a mediocre unit like Lorenz who can get Movement +1 quickly and isn’t particularly good in the first place.
Yeah, I guess Flayn exist but for the most part, you do need to recruit a healer, hence why I did admit they sucked at healing with that setup.
Actually I'd argue Ignatz has pretty good combat. Mainly he cannot kill for much of the earlygame, but he provides debuffing long range chip with reliable accuracy. Then he double for a while, and finally the existence of Hunter's volley completely salvages him. His strength in authority is also really helpful to get strong battalions earlier and compensate for his middling offense. That being said, I'm not the one to talk to to hear negativity about Annette, and regardless I do think you're right.
Lorenz rant incoming:
I'll make Lorenz work someday. Actually he kinda does, as a pure mage. Gets Ragnarok abnormally early, has a very easy time into DK and can thus work towards tomefaire 2(got it on month 17 with no solo focus or grinding, I was really surprised), and he actually has an enemy phase unlike most mages, for a while anyway. The defensive effect of Thyrsus is pretty nice on him as a result, too. His combination of two strong low uses reason spells allows him to function well as a DK, as a male he gets a bonus when next to Hilda, Ferdinand is a + damage support for him(stops at B, but eh)... no he does have things going for him, he really does.
... but he's often short of OHKO without boosters in maddening, despite my best efforts. Frankly I suspect many mages suffer the same, because his numbers are far from bad. Ultimately as I said above, his magic isn't that much lower than Marianne's(and he's always at +2 thanks to his passive), so he can probably pull off the same Frozen lance build to great effect, I just haven't personally tried.
As for the actual point at hand though(sorry), I think every unit you deploy should be as good as possible. You don't have to deploy Lorenz, but you will deploy a dancer. Might as well maximize how much they contribute. That's arguable for sure, won't deny it. -
17 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:
I did forget about Point Blank Volley, so I’ll concede that GD has that going for them. I don’t really think that Marianne or Lysithea will be in the position to use their magic Combat Arts very often if at all though. Both of them are going to be around 4 Move for the first 30 Levels, and Lysithea is probably going Gremory which is still only 5 Move. I could see it being useful somewhat early on, but I don’t see the use of being able to ORKO if the unit lags behind the rest of your units.
Raph has Rally Strength, but he’s also terrible as a front liner. He gets doubled by just about everything, and he doesn’t have enough Defense to make up for it. He’s dead weight that should be dropped as soon as humanly possible. In regards to Hilda, isn’t it sub-optimal to have a dancer with a siege tome? Dance is more useful than any contribution Hilda could make using Bolting. She has 5 base Mag and a 25% growth. Losing Wyvern Hilda to make her a dancer who hits for like 20 HP twice per map at a far range seems pretty meh. If you were going to go Bolting Hilda though, I’d rather just leave her as a Warlock so she at least has Tomefaire and 4 uses instead of 2.
Marianne goes Paladin for tier 3(and stays there), and cavalier the moment she masters fiendish blow, she has the strengths for it. I can speak from experience, this works really well. For Lysithea admittedly you're probably better off just going mage; that being said she does OHKO with Dark spikes for a while once she gets fiendish blow.
Raph is dicey for sure, at least he can kill with gauntlets easier than most characters, but that's about it. I was just saying, in terms of rallies while you need two deployment slots, the GD gets the same selection(beside Res and Dex, but they're both roughly as important as the other)
The point of having a dancer with siege is that it gets +7 -10 accuracy/avoid to everyone within 10 tiles around them, it's not to fight with it since you'll be dancing 99% of the time. Dorothea does the same in BE, but she doesn't have many GD supports so it has to be Hilda there. BL doesn't get anything of the sort, it's one of the rare advantages they don't get at all. Hilda also has a + damage with Claude, which is pretty great since she's granting him the bonus pretty much at all times as a result.
Granted, WL Hilda is a really solid unit(not the most accurate though), but in the end, she's not massively better than other WLs, if at all, while this is a niche only she brings, and you're going to be using a dancer either way.Looking at stats, Lorenz could be using Frozen lance too, he learns it decently early.
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29 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:
Oh. I thought in the back of my head that might be the case.
No, I'm pretty sure you're right. You need Dark Mage unlocked for Dark Bishop to become available. That's why it takes two dark seals.
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2 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:
Once you do get Rally Speed though, I think BL is significantly easier than GD because they have more tools in general. Annette has Rally Strength, Speed, and Res while pulling off a pretty good magic flier build, Dedue can tank consistently in Part 1 if he goes the Armor route, Sylvain has Swift Strikes, Mercedes has the best healing in the game, and Dimitri + Felix are great combat units.
"Shrug" Leonie and Sylvain get their brave art at the same rank, Marianne can OHKO with frozen lance, Lysithea can do the same with soul blade, Raphael gets rally strength, and they get siege dancer support through Hilda... they do suffer quite a bit in the healing department admittedly. Past ch 6 I didn't find maddening particularly taxing on GD, certain paralogues aside.
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8 hours ago, Aggro Incarnate said:
1. Are level-up stats for adjutant backpacks completely predictable before playing the game? Likewise are statgains between timeskip (since units are autolevelled) fixed?
2. Am I correct in thinking that nabbed students gain 64/56/48 wexp on Normal/Hard/Maddening on their base goals each chapter? We got a formula that predicts student stats from default classes, personal and enemy class growths and base stats. I want to be able to predict what weapon ranks each student and faculty member would have at all point in the game pre-timeskip.
1: That's something I've never wondered about. Looking at characters that have been adjutants for my entire current playthrough, several stats deviate from average, so I would say no. The second is also a no. I've gone through the same timeskip twice to compare the amount of levels gained, and the stat gains were different. For all intents and purposes they seem to be regular level ups that we just don't see.
2: Can only confirm for maddening, but that seems to be the case, yes. Note that you also have to consider the base ranks of the class you recruit them as, for example swordmaster, sniper and warrior cannot have under A in sword/bow/axe respectively, a monk cannot have <D faith and reason, and a fighter cannot have <D in axe, bow, and brawling. Etc.
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A female gauntlet class with magic access. It'd be cool. And not just a single one, but one for each tier.
A swordfaire class with 7 move and great speed, probably dread fighter. Give the swordies a break already.
An armored class with magic could be fun.
An axefaire infantry class that focuses on strength/speed and has awful Dex. So Berserker basically.
Sure, put in Hallebardier. 6 move and above average stat mods.
... and yeah, we probably need a magic flier. But then we'd also need magic flying battalions. The game has zero of those at the moment.
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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:
Was gonna second this, but with a caveat:
Essar Research Group is absurdly good as well. +5 to both offensive stats, and +30 hit, off of an E-rank batallion? And they give the Blessing gambit, which offers a free 100% miracle, redeemable anytime, for up to 4 allies. I've found myself using it on my mages, even post-skip, over some D and C-rank options.
It is really good but I don't really like to count it, because afaik you can't get it without a Nintendo online subscription, which many won't have. But yes, it's likely even better.
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2 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:
This goes for all other battles as well. Auxiliary Battles, Quest Battles, and Paralogues will, at most, let you take 99 turns to complete their objectives.
Here's a question I have. How much Experience towards the next Professor Level do you earn at each level from answering Lecture Questions? It seems to me like it increases every level, but I'm not sure.
I think it does as well, but that could also be based on when you are in the game. If it's not, all I can tell you is that the best answer gives:
At E+: 300
At D : 600
At C : 1200
... and that's as high as it gets afaik. I don't have D+ in my notes but logically it's pretty easy to see how much it should give.
Chapter 13 in Blue Lions and Church on maddening gets the reward for being the most frustrating chapter in FE.
in Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Posted · Edited by Cysx
Level 24 is fairly average by the end of ch12 in my experience. And the above value matches with my playthrough, someone else's who reacted to the list in the general question thread, as well as Mangs' and Mekkah's.
Beyond that all I can say is maybe.