Makaze

I can see a world where it's not Kill as last Mafia, but the sheer incentives for Mafia to kill Kill and gain an unknown super power is astounding. More on this: After all of the saving roles were killed, the Mafia had every reason to kill Kill. However, they couldn't do that if he was Mafia, because it would seriously hurt their team. They also would have known that ITP!Omega would never kill Kill, so it would not lead to kill overlap. They both shot Via because she was 100% consensus town, while I had been casing Refa and would probably continue to do so. Leaving Refa alive would make me dig my own grave from their POV, among many other reasons, such as Refa not having strong convictions. But it can't be: Omega (his role is squarely too strong for a 5-man scumteam with a strongman), Refa (lol), Evan (Bookie reasoning from Refa is sound, plus, I 100% buy that Evan thinks Rolecop always gets SK results, thats normal on other sites), Baldrick (his slot was jailed N1 and survived as a result, meaning 100% confirmed not Mafia or ITP) So that leaves an extremely small pool of: Fable Kill

Why Kill is by far the most likely Mafia (using mechanics alone): Mafia want to hard bus Athena. Why would they pick Athena and not Junko in this case? "Because he has the weakest power" may be tempting, but I strongly believe this is unlikely when even the Mafia do not know what his secondary power would be if the other co-networker surfaced. Mafia would NEVER sacrifice this potentially game changing reveal at the start. So, they knew who both co-networkers were, and they decided to sacrifice one to gain the power on the other. Junko and Shinori pushes cases on them both, and the way they jumped off of the Kirsche wagon makes no sense to me now that I know that killing Kirsche instead would have granted Athena a new power. I think they were expecting a Kirsche lynch swing at the end and were going to save Athena instead afterward. Then there's how Shinori reacted / dropped Athena and addressed Kirsche's claim. Make your own interpretation of whether this looks good or bad for Kill, when a) Shinori knows 100% that killing Kirsche gives Athena a new power, and b) they did not kill Kirsche that night after the claim, or any night after. Timestamps. Posted in this order with one post between. Does this mean anything to you? Shinori says this to Zkirsche. Never follows up on the question. Kirsche never responds, either. Quoting this one because this is the thing that read really scummy to me at the time, caused my Kirsche vote, and still feels off. This is... very bad, IMO.

its ok bro you're still really good and had me waffling multiple times

Because a) he is bluffing and b) he doesn't think a rolecop exists. Also I asked him if he'd be okay with it, then he said go ahead. Not the same thing. He reacted as a townie would, it doesn't mean he would have done it himself.

Correct.

Straw man. Didn't even pay attention to the extra power spec or try to counter it. Not sure if you were doing this intentionally but your argument actually does apply to Refa, where mafia have other reasons to kill you. Plus, Refa's convictions are paper thin and blow like the wind. I suspected Rolecop. Strongwilled I didn't get. Refa is not anti-town. We can. What do you think of my Kill analysis so far? this is tonally terrible. red sirens blaring. i'm trying not to tunnel and it still bugged me. Now you know. Wrong. Kill entered "provide an alternative" mode.

Whether SK comes up as a role or alignment depends on the host. In a lot of games, Role Cop is the anti-SK, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Refa, you're just plain wrong, IMO on Evan IMO. I'm going to explain why Kill is guilty. Try to consider what you found when you quotewalled him.

Yeah, it's fine. I would rather troll with the flip though.

Once again, they have another power if one of the networkers dies. So it's a bussing incentive and that's why we had two co-networker wagons. I think the timing of Shinori's athena drop and Kirsche's claim are very conspicuous.

How is scum having a bookie with 5 members and town having a single day shot better?

There is a chance that I am wrong, but I don't think I am. Keeping Kill alive for an eventual mislynch opportunity or to keep the network instead of another, better power, is ludicrous.

Also, killing one co-networker if both are town is a sound move for Mafia because it disrupts town control and of reads outside the thread. Athena is smart enough to recognize this and would have been able to make this defense if he killed Kill. "The Mafia killed one of us to make the other look bad, and the kill makes much more sense if both are town." The power grab gives them incentive to bus one of their own and the Mafia have absolutely zero reason not to kill towncleared Kill in this scenario.

Athena was Mafia. The faction is not dead.

Some initial points, before the full case: The Mafia team pushed both co-networkers as lynches D1 and D2. Shinori dropped Athen and immediately shaded on Kirsche over Junko. Kill and Athena have the same extra power grab if their partner dies. They are both Mafia. If they were not, the Mafia would have killed Kill as soon as he was towncleared because they would gain an extra power from it and could very easily argue that they did it to make Athena look bad if he was town. The fact that Kill is still alive is a huge hole in this story.

One of Evan or Kill is Mafia. I believe it is Kill for mechanically sound reasons. The Walrein clear practically hammers it. If you don't get why, I will write a full case on my lunch. For now, Refa has been right about all of his convictions. Trust him on this one too. ##Vote Killthestory

Eh, not really actually. You have a point. It just takes another phase to get to the same number. Fine. You win. ##Vote Athena

i mean it depends on your pov tbh fewer players die my way

##Vote Omega I hope someone sees my logic.

In the case where Athena is the last Mafia, we need to lynch Omega and vig Athena for the fastest solve to the game. It's fundamentally impossible that Athena has either a rogue or a roleblocking ability as well as either of his Mafia peers. So the vig cannot be stopped. The fastest route to winning is to kill them both in one cycle, and the only way that is happening is in this order. Athena is confirmed Mafia so there is no added solving from that, but killing Omega allows us to move on to other targets in the unlikely scenario I am wrong. I am not willing to entertain that without evidence though.

Actually, Athena practically confirmed it's just the SK left. So that's that. Back to ITP hunting. It's Omega. Prove me wrong.

The rest of the time should be spent on ITP hunting. Your reads are great, Refa. I have to give you props even if you can't just sheep mine. I'm amazed at Athena's playing.

Well played my friend. You earned my respect. For future reference: If you payed closer attention you'd notice I didn't mention anything happened to me. You could have claimed something that wouldn't have notified me and there would be few problems. Something like a one shot voyeur action. You could play it off as something that you wouldn't want to reveal until you used it and got something useful out of it. That would have been the play here. Hope we play together again. ##Vote Athena @EvanManManMan Vig Walrein if Athena is not the last one. Vig me or Omega if he is.

He half heartedly jumps from wagon to wagon and just keeps saying he'd rather me be killed despite seemingly waffling on me being town throughout. To me, this is as bad as someone flirting with me in a rapey way and you going "I think he's just complimenting you". Sorry to go there, but that's how it feels. I legimately don't get the feeling he actually reads me as Mafia. He KNOWS I am town. He knows it. It shows in his process. He sheeps my cases. He tries to appeal to me as if I'm town. Then he talks to literally anyone not me, and I'm lynchbait again. I get very different vibes from other people scumreading me, including Evan, Athena and Fable. Which is another reason I'm ??? on Athena and not chomping at the bit to lynch him. I still think that by instincts, it's just Walrein and Omega.

We have to... We can't just let him make us wait forever.

I think that this is true regardless of if he is Mafia or not, and if he is town and still doesn't care, then I am actually more angry instead of just convinced he is ITP; I will be mad that he subbed into the game if he's not going to take it seriously.