PKL

Yeah, Wolf is a lot better than Sedgar for me. +1 spd base and much better lck. Same growths aside from def.

I'm not gonna lie, this took me 1 hour and 30 minutes to read and reply :P Dolph/Macellan/Ymir: They're near unusable and they auto recruit. But we're recruiting everyone anyway. Ymir is at the bottom of the bottom tier because of his jointime. Tomas can chip something in his join chapter with Silver Bow and then get benched eternally, Sheema has an actual Bow rank and joins earlier, Macellan can open the C16 door. Ymir is simply the worst. He does nothing ever except trade his Silver Axe and Killer Bow to someone so they can sell em :P About Rickard: I overestimated how much thief utility not named Julian is worth in this game. Julian is responsible for getting Rickard in C6 and one of the 2 can then get us 10,000G, which is pretty neat. If Rickard is recruited in C5, Rickard can still get the Bullion by using Pure Water/Rainbow Pot. It's more costly than Julian getting it, but he can still do it. Since he does it worse, he's still lower, but not as low as he'd be if I assumed Julian did it 100% of the time like in SDS's tier lists. They (only 1 by then but durability of the thief only matters in Chapter 6, where they have to take a swarm to get the Bullion) also save Thief charges by getting the Capricorn and the Boots (early) in Chapter 9. That's a good point. Athough in the case of Avatar, I don't see how he'd still be a Pirate when he's very likely to be promoted already as our best combat unit. I'm still sure an ideal Barst is better than scrubs like Frey and Roger though. Yeah, I meant a forged Thoron crit from a Sage sacrificing itself and then finishing him off with someone else. I remember dondon telling me that's probably the only way to beat him in 0% growths H2. Answers bolded in quote. Whew, that took me an entire hour to reply to. Also, some of the spoilers might be messy. Yeah, he's essential. I don't think seizing should count though. Past tier lists have never tiered lords like that and it would be weird. Combat!Marth is actually very nice. Being one of the few units who aren't completely obliterated if they are looked the wrong way early on. That and the Rapier and stuff and not having to seize anymore, he'd be actually pretty good. Julian gets us 10,000G in Chapter 6 without needing to expend Rainbow Pot uses on a thief (lol) and allows us to get the Boots and the Capricorn without expending Thief charges and still 5 turn Chapter 9. He makes a better combat unit than Rickard, due to his at least decent spd base even though it's still worse than like everyone and you shouldn't really be using him in combat. He also recruits Lena, a B staff user (that's required due to the recruit everyone rule) that can Again or heal Marth in endgame. Good question. I think the difference is that Marth isn't the only way to beat Medeus, he's simply the best at it. While seizing is a 100% required action to beat the game and part of the mechanics of the game. But Rickard is already much lower than Julian, so I don't see why it's a problem. Since recruitment is required, I decided not to penalize units that need to be recruited. But in situations like Julian with Lena, he can get some points for recruiting her. Changed: Feena below Malicia Yumina below Linde Xane above Etzel Barst over Roger Leiden above Belf Nagi above Maria (I still feel the other Bishop's again, fortify, etc. are better than Nagi's almost OHKOs on dragons, shes above Maria only because Maria cant again) Athena over Jeorge Maybe: Malicia above Avatar ? Marth to High Tier above Luke? Julian vs Rickard, should Julian really be that high compared to him? I want to discuss: Arran vs Minerva Gordin vs Belf/Leiden Katarina vs Wendell Nagi above Maria More lower tier discussion (yes, I want this)

Finally Wrys promotes. And wow, Doga is almost untrainably bad.

A lot of turns Im guessing. It might even be impossible for a normal team to complete the map. I reckon the only way to clear Medeus fast without Marth is a forged thoron crit + someone else to pick him off. Could take like 4 turns or something. But it's just theory emblem. Even in Avatar runs, I don't believe Catria's lategame advantage is enough to put her above Palla's amazing early prowess tbh. Up to the desert shes clearly beating Catria and being our best combat unit (aside from Avatar). Her lck problem in Ch13 and Ch14 can be fixed with Lck shard + Rainbow Pot. Though lategame zerkers might still pose a problem. Yeah, it's tough choosing between them. Without Caeda we wouldnt have very reliable bosskills of Ch6, 15 and 19. And she's a serviceable unit in the Dragon Chapters because her str problem is almost irrelevant if she has C Lances and a Dragonslaying weapon. Her prologue contributions are also awesome. Feena on other hand, saves a turn in every map shes in. It's a tough call. I thought about it before posting the list. Malicia saves a ridiculous amount of turns just by being able to repair our Rescue and she can again, rescue, physic and do all sorts of stuff. With enough resources she can even nosferatank C15 >_>. The Avatar is the most solid combat unit but might not save as many turns as her. I'll think some more on it. Kinda. Reliable LTC though. I'm mostly tiering the units by how many turns they save, how good they are at what they do and stuff like that. I agree. Most efficiency teams won't be able to beat endgame without Marth. Yeah, its a tough call. Though I give the edge to the airforce for now on the logic that they're invaluable just like Feena but they also do a lot of the combat in this game unlike her. They save turns and are extremely powerful at what they do. Yeah, I probably overdid it. I always thought Belf/Leiden were a bit overrated in the other tier list, but I placed them too low now. I also think Leiden>Belf because: http://gyazo.com/e4554826bd4a411717b042e89d474553 http://gyazo.com/5f2addb55e4ed524201ecea120425787 15/1 Belf needs a Wing and a Rainbow Pot to guarantee doubling Ice Dragons. IIRC they have 18 AS in Lunatic, 17 in Maniac. And he also needs more resources in the form of Lck boosting shards, Godess Icon and a rainbow Pot use so that he doesnt hurt reliability. Those Ice Dragons in his join chapter have a lot of crit. 15/1 Leiden on the other hand can double Ice Dragons without Rainbow Pot. So he saves us a Wing. His str is worrisome but as long as he's using Wyrmslayer, he should be OK vs them. He also needs 2 lck boosting stuff (Libra and Pot only) iirc to escape crits completely unlike Belf. I've always seen Roger as usable. Though he's a pain to train in the chapters to come. If you can get him to Dracoknight in time, he can use Dragonpike as a Dracoknight. His spd would be good if he joined earlier, but since he joins so close to the craziness of Anri's Way, he might stand to drop. I wonder if Frey and Barst are really better than him though. It seems to me that Frey has more spd issues than Roger but joins a bit earlier. Even though he can't really get much exp in the chapters he has over Roger. Barst is just weird, he doesnt have spd issues as a Pirate, but he's also not really as solid as I'd want him to be. Though now that I think more on it, Im starting to think Barst>Frey and Roger. Simply because his axe rank issues arent as bad Frey and Roger's spd and exp issues. Could be one way to do it, yeah. If he can get to Level 10 before Anri's way and have 15 spd as a DK, he can take a Rainbow Pot so that he isn't doubled and can use the Dragonpike during those chapters to kill stuff/get exp and contribute. He probably needs to Drill Ground for Level 10 though tbh. Frey starts at the same level some chapters back, but his 10/1 Dracoknight spd is 12.3 that's not even in fixable territory for Anri's way. Roger on the other hand can hit the 17 spd sweetspot and not be doubled by anyone on the map. He seems more usable than Frey so I'm moving Frey down/Roger up. Frey would probably be better off as a Sniper or a Swordmaster than as a Dracoknight. Despite his weapon rank :/

Lol, so as I suspected, the Legions never end.

Wasn't the 7 turn exclusive to Ogma + Est? That's weird. Draug can't really tank well in Prologue aside from sword enemies. So maybe you're remembering wrong.

Actually gain stats and have a semblance of actual durability, without the need for a 30 def 45 str and 75 hp to work in your favor? The odds are in Cordelia's favor: 90 hp 60 str and 45 def. Both double most things anyway so those are the stats that matter. And again, she has more options than Sumia in turnless when it comes to reclasses. How does knight sumia do?

Yeah, I did :P. Yeah, I felt like I needed new tiers because some things weren't making sense with the simple approach. Some characters I felt deserved more of a tier gap, etc. Draug is usually not deployed in Prologue because he's almost negative utility (doubled and almost ORKO'd by a lot of enemies) so he won't getting much experience there. Ogma is by far the most superior choice, as it lets you cut 2 turns in Prologue 8 and is a solid unit in general. High seems reasonable for Marth but I'm wondering where exactly...

First: The only Cordelia fanboy here is me. Second: I legitimately think Cordelia is a better recipient of experience. Third: Sumia really does nothing special. You should probably draft this game or something. Literally everything she does, aside from Ch5 ferrying Fred and Ch8 is replicable by other units. Fourth: LTC of this game you literally only need a Peg Avatar Ricken Libra and Morgan, you know it. So stop acting like Sumia is special.

Alright, moved him there. What do you think on Marth's placement? And Feena vs Caeda Catria and Palla?

The games never use averages (aside from FE9 fixed mode) to determine whether you proc a stat or not. That's the main issue. We're not arguing FE at that point. We're arguing theory emblem. There's probability to take into account on whether a growth procs or not. Averages simply never happen. In all my time playing FE, never has a character been completely average. @ ZM - It's ok. I don't really want to argue with you anyways ;)

Lol people still using averages. I'm out.

Growth Drop Marth is pretty solid. But he does require resources in the form of exp and kills setup for him on the way to the throne, barring a few maps where he's just rescued (like Chapter 11). He's definetely a neccesity to LTC'ing because of Medeus and because having a durable Marth allows more leniency in LTC strats. I originally had him in high tier but later put him in Top due to how neccesary he is. If I move him, where to? He seems very complicated to tier.

It's a legit point. She really doesn't do anything special in LTC. Her TC contributions are replicated by everyone else except for Chapter 5, in which Fred and Avatar just do everything anyway and all she does is ferry him there. In not LTC, there's really no demand for a flier. It makes the game needlessly harder by making you check archers and stuff. Cordelia has nice reclass options in the form of dark mage and merc. She starts close to reclassing and theres a SS next chapter. Also, .45 and .30 are pretty bad. If we assume averages shes ok. But characters are NEVER on their average. Cordelia has more chance to deviate to the good side of her growths due to being higher than 50.

No, she didnt kill or tripped over my dog. I'm just annoyed because she's so overrated. :P She isn't even good in LTC. Why would she be good in notLTC?

That's always been my problem with him. But he does contribute a lot to turncounts. I guess I'll move him down a bit. Maybe below Luke and Draug but above Rody?

ZM, because she legit joins at a point when the enemies aren't as threatening. Have you played LM? The enemies become weaker in C6 for some weird design reason. Paralogue 3 has less threatening enemies than like Ch2. Anyway, back to Hard Mode.

Not really. Cordelia is better in Lunatic. Sumia is barely trainable in Lunatic. What with her amazing "I get OHKO'd even with Fred ohmygosh I tripped oh no" and "oh man I cant double without Chrom, sorry but I really really want that def boost...OH NO". Cordelia joins in a chapter thats a lot easier and she isnt OHKO'd. And Celes, I have freaking done BASE MAGIC Nosferatu tanking Cordelia.

This is starting to resemble my FE12 H2 LTC Run slightly :P Dat warp. FE8 C18 is the FE12 C20x, not letting itself be 1 turned!

The whole reason he's where he is, is because he can replicate what Etzel does normally by getting an Arms Scroll and promoting. (gets B rank Tomes for Excalibur, promotion allows him to use it as Bishop and thus he has D rank staves).

Yeah, C staves is very nice in general for a few chapters. And she can mostly replicate Malicia except for the whole Hammerne deal. I myself was unsure of her placement. My tiering tends to evaluate units without taking into account that someone else can do their job better. I think that If tier lists do that, there's no reason to tier beyond just the best units.

Top of Bottom Tier for now. But I'm not sure where I'll end up putting him.

I've wanted to update the Tier List for awhile. Note: weird experiment criteria incoming Tier List Rules: -The game will be played on H3 Lunatic difficulty. -Mixed Male Class Set is unlocked. -Prologue performance is counted when evaluating unit's contributions. Units in Prologue are assumed to get a reasonable amount of experience. -All Characters are to be recruited. -Lunatic stat boosters are assumed to exist and may be distributed however the player chooses as long as the ideal recipients for the first few of each statbooster has received them. -Characters are assumed to be deployed to compare them. Please no arguments along the lines of "this unit doesnt deserve to be deployed". -Rainbow Potion is allowed, Growth Drop and Bond Drop are assumed to exist and allowed. -Wifi Shop is banned. [spoiler=What each tier means] Top tier Units that are core to achieving low turn counts on many maps, and do not require many resources or a team composition to do this effectively High tier Units that significantly cut turns with some degree of resources dumped into them (exp, statbooster, warped, rescue ferried) or support units that make those units capable of those strategies. Will not work in every scenario but are large contributors if utilised correctly Upper Mid Tier Units that may save turns in certain parts of the game and can be decent combat/utility units despite not being ideal for deployment. Mid tier Units that may save turns in certain parts of the game under certain situations. Lower Mid Tier Units that may affect turns in a certain part of the game but their usefulness is very limited outside of that. Upper Low Tier Units that require resources to perform a given task and may not affect turn counts negatively if given said resources. Low tier Units that negatively affect turn counts due to factors like extended babying, denial of resources to important members, etc. Bottom Tier Units that have absolutely no redeeming qualities as well as affecting turn counts negatively and taking up resources from other units. Top Tier Avatar Malicia Feena Palla Catria Caeda Xane Etzel Marth High Tier Sirius Luke Ryan Draug Rody Linde Upper Mid Tier Cecille Arran Minerva Yumina Ogma Merric Navarre Cain Julian Barst Leiden Darros Roger Wrys Mid Tier Belf Wendell Katarina Frey Athena Gordin Jeorge Lower Mid Tier Nyna Elice Lena Nagi Maria Rickard Tiki Warren Castor Jake Upper Low Tier Elrean Frost Est Caesar Maris Dice Horace Cord Low Tier Norne Samto Matthis Radd Yubello Bord Bottom Tier Abel Robert Beck Macellan Dolph Midia Michalis Astram Tomas Bantu Samson Roshea Vyland Wolf Sedgar Sheema Ymir Discuss. Current doubts: *Marth's placement in general Malicia above Avatar ? Marth to High Tier above Luke? Julian vs Rickard, should Julian really be that high compared to him? Changes: 9/16/2013: Feena below Malicia Yumina below Linde Xane above Etzel Barst over Roger Leiden above Belf Nagi above Maria Athena over Jeorge 9/23/2013: Minerva lowered to Upper Mid Tier Yumina below Minerva in Upper Mid Tier Leiden above Darros Belf now in the top of Mid Tier Frey moved from Upper Mid to Mid Tier, below Katarina Merric above Navarre Roger below Darros Gordin below Athena 2/11/2014: Sirius over Luke 6/15/2014: Linde over Cecille and Arran. Ryan over Draug and Rody. Arran lowered to Upper Mid Tier.

Way to ignore that Cordelia can pull off Nosferatanking. I love the Sumia bias. And lol @ Cordelia having doubling issues. The only things she doesnt double are myrmidons in Ch8.

Isn't his mag promo gain like 4 or some shit like that?