Shiki Ryougi

I completely disagree. When I have to take twice as long trying to comprehend your posts over everyone else's, something is wrong. Nothing you said about Invisible particularly stood out to me at least. Not until Invisible attacked you and you attacked him back. "Textblobs" ornot, I feel that your case lacked presence until the very end. Also, if I didn't make any responses to Invisible, it's because I had nothing particularly new to add. What should I have done, repeat, "I still think Invisible is scummy for [reasons I have already repeated]" over and over again until phase end? I am annoyed that you are so caught up on me in the respect that everything must be "my way or you're scum". You are also taking this in a black and white manner. Just because you don't think that this is how I should have done things, doesn't mean that I'm scum for doing it. What can I say? I don't play like you. I didn't have suspicions until perhaps the last half hour or so. It wasn't until then that I started wondering "what if he isn't scum". Maybe I could have built a case in thirty minutes and posted it before hammer, but by the time I was suspecting otherwise I don't think we could have switched wagons even if we wanted to. Especially when no one else I wanted lynch was a viable lynch candidate.

##Vote: Failbaddon Despite all the going ons in this thread from the previous phase, all he did was show up occasionally and say that despite everything else he felt that Bored was the most deserving of a vote. In fact, I don't believe that he ever really commented on anything not related to Bored. Considering how much non-Bored discussion happened, I'm not happy with this. Second of all, Moeblobs, I know you are RPing but could you please stop speaking in third person? It is incredibly difficult for me to understand what you are saying, which may have been the source of misunderstandings in the first place, and it makes me incredibly tempted to just ignore everything you say, which is not beneficial to my win-con. Also, I feel that you are guilty of some of the same things you are accusing me of. Everything I said to you before phase end on D1 still stands. I feel that your case on Invisible wasn't presented very strongly. I feel that you yourself spent more time building a case on me rather than strengthening your case on Invisible. If you think my vote on Invisible was weak and I spent more time posting about other players, then you're guilty of building a stronger case on me despite never changing your vote from Invisible after it got there. And why should I not talk about other players even if I'm voting someone else? If I'm constantly posting only about the person I'm voting, then I'm going to develop tunnel vision, which isn't particularly helpful. I could have continued to build my case on Invisible, but I didn't see anything that stood out to me that I felt hadn't been addressed that had to be. My reasons for thinking Invisible was scum near the end of D1 were actually the same as my original thoughts had been, so I felt no need to add anything new to it. (Also, you yourself admitted that no one else did the same, so this is hardly unique to me.) Finally, if you want to know the truth ... near the final thirty minutes or so, when Invisible was getting his last reads out, I was starting to have doubts. But I've seen this community second guess themselves from a scum lynch so many times. Flaming Hot was the only other viable wagon at the time. I committed to the Invisible lynch, hoping that it would flip scum, and it didn't.

Are you saying that I switched from voting Bored to Invisible because of emotions? This is wrong, as I have stated earlier. If you're referring to you calling me waffling, I stated I was not waffling and gave reasons. You said, "you are totally waffling!" And you were misrepping when you said that I dropped him over his apology. My point wasn't that you were talking about me more, so why aren't you voting me. Although you were voting Invisible, I felt that you weren't pushing a case on him enough. This is your reply to Invisible after he responded to your vote on him. You say that a proper wagon hadn't formed on him until I voted and because of it, you were going to be keeping your eyes on me, never mind that you also joined the same wagon after I voted. This is the point where you stopped arguing with Invisible and went after me. The thing is, I'm not convinced by your case on Invisible. I don't like that after exchanging a few back and forth discussions with him you say you should be looking at me instead and stop arguing. Whether this is your intent or not, I don't feel that your case on Invisible presented here was strong enough compared to your arguments against me. A case might sound strong in your head, where you understand yourself, but you have to make it convincing to other people. Also, I can't tell if this is you RPing or not, but statements like the following: Are rather empty. If I'm so tempting for you to vote, then you should just vote me. If you think I'm looking scummier, but still not scummier than Invisible, then why not just say, "if Invisible lynch doesn't go through Pasadena is also fine with me"? This looks overdramatic, but your point is that at that point you still don't want to lynch me over Invisible. Why not just state that I'm still a secondary scum read instead of being all "tempted to vote, but I must preserve"? Why state it at all? You already established I was a secondary scum read you wanted lynched. Again, it's not so much that you were talking about me more. It's because your case on me looked more convincing than your case on Invisible. It felt like you backed off him a lot faster to me at least, whether you meant to do that or not, and that your case on me was more arguable than the one on Invisible.

The thing is, PA, I really don't find Flaming Hot that scummy right now. His one post doesn't tell me enough to give me a definitive read on him. Response to Moeblobs coming in a minute.

You're being really defensive. Here's the thing: I don't know what you're thinking, nor do you know what I'm thinking. If I accidentally misrep you then all I can say is that it was not my intent, and that I can only call things as I see it. Also, you've done your share of ignoring stuff I've said which is also misrep. If I'm guilty of misrep, then you are just as guilty as I am. In other words, I don't know what you're thinking. All I can do is use what I have seen of your actions and interpret them as I can. I can understand why you'd be upset if I misrepped you, but when I got upset over people misrepping and misunderstanding me, you told me to shut up and scum hunt. Should I ask you to do the same? Furthermore, all I've said was that Invisible's lynch would give me associative reads on you and Brian Kibler. It'll give people associative reads on me as well, but I can't have associative reads on myself because I know what I am. This is pretty much fact.

Oh hi Paperclip. Glad you finally showed up.

Aside from not being able to be online, I don't want to lynch Flaming Hot because I don't think his flip will tell us much. I mean, if he's scum, that's great, but because he has no interactions we learn nothing about the people who voted him and we'll most likely end up resuming today's debate. Invisible is still a lynch priority of mine, and lynching him nets us a lot of information about Moeblobs and Brian Kibler -- the first who attacked him but seemed more interested in telling me how he thought I was scummy until Invisible fought back and called him a scumread; the second who appears to be hard defending him.

Make that just over an hour now ...

Oh man. We need to get our act together. We have about an hour and a half before the phase ends and I'm not really happy with this activity and the lack of different players who've been around. Looking at stuff that I missed yesterday, I'm seeing a lot of material that'll help my reads ... but won't be of much use until after a wagon flips. I can't think of anything new I can say about Invisible, Moeblobs, and Brian Kibler right now. I feel that Brian Kibler is defending Invisible really hard, but when I don't know either of their alignments for sure I can't say anything definite for sure. Invisible and Moeblobs attacking each other harder near phase end is also something to note. I'm unhappy with Fail right now. He's only popped up every once in a while and kept his vote on Bored, commenting very little on everything else. This feels like a vote park, considering that a lot of non-Bored stuff has been in-thread. And yet, he still finds Bored more interesting and more scummy than anything else that's happened? Also, Mormegil ... Actually, that's incorrect. I didn't vote him because of emotion. I unvoted him because I was upset and I wanted to make sure that my reasons for staying on his wagon then weren't clouded by spite. I really don't want to lynch Flaming Hot right now. His vote on Bored wasn't exactly impressive, but if he's been having actual problems that the mod feels necessary to point out, it's not going to accomplish anything.

And yes, I do look worse with every passing post. Do you know why? It's is because I am ANGRY. I'm angry that half of the player base is inactive and not doing anything. I am angry that this wagon on me has escalated over minor stuff and nobody is listening to me at all. I'm angry over things that are none of your business. Basically, I'm very angry and it's showing in my posts, and I can't just ignore stuff especially if it's directed at me because that's not advancing the game state any. I'm honestly not sure what I am doing wrong, why what I am doing wrong is worse than what everyone else is doing wrong, and it feels that everyone is just poking at me right now because I'm the most obvious person and being lazy. And you know what, I want you to try being me right now and see if you don't get angry. I am trying my hardest, and everyone sees me as scum for it. If I'm just going to distract from the town by trying, then why bother even trying at all?

There is also a chance for this to backfire. Scum trying to be active may slip up if they're careless, or they'll say something that'll get everyone to jump on them. Sounds like a lousy gambit just for some D1 town credit. Yeah, it's dumb. It was also dumb when Invisible did it. So tell me how I am still scummier than Invisible? Who has barely defended himself and done little contribution to scum hunting aside from defending himself? Also, you need to get over yourself with my "unvote" of Invisible. If you can't understand why I would unvote him after he made me upset and then apologized about it, then maybe you need a lesson on emotions and why they fuck with your mafia play. At that point, I couldn't understand whether it was irritation that was blinding me to seeing more than there was, or if my emotions were making me unable to see the real case. As for vote parking on enigma after I got back, I was irritated because of none of your damn business and I've been expecting more inactive people to chip in to this discussion. I was sorely disappointed, and irritated, and figured enigma needed a little incentive to show his face. Yes, I can see why it's weird. But like I'm just going to keep my displeasure silent. You also noted that Invisible did the same thing -- vote parked an inactive. How am I worse, seriously? And that's not supposed to make me think that you're blaming the start of the wagon on me, conveniently ignoring that you yourself had jumped on the same wagon? Let's pretend that I didn't vote. If at the point I put a vote on was the start of a "wagon proper" on Invisible, then your vote would have been the one to have started the "wagon proper". So ... yeah. How am I supposed to not think you're blaming the wagon on me, seriously? I was not waffling. Also, I admit that I forgot that he had unvoted me to vote an inactive. I never claimed to remember everything. Does that make all the people who had ever forgotten a detail in their game scum? My thoughts on Invisible did not change. My reason for voting enigma, whether you think it's weak or not, is explained above and I will not repeat that. You're barely even pursuing your first lynch choice. Your vote is on Invisible, and yet from your words you think that I am worse than him. You had seemed to be quite easily swayed by his arguments and had shifted your attention to me, and your attention has primarily been on me. I am hardly only your "secondary" lynch choice compared to Invisible. So why aren't you voting me? You clearly want me lynched. Then vote and stop being spineless. Or are you merely going to point fingers at me and never switch your vote because you know I'm a mislynch and don't want to be associated with it? Your case on me is more convincing than anything you had on Invisible. So I ask again -- why aren't you voting me? You can look at your own actions for "opportunistic behavior", because I believe you yourself has demonstrated the same.

I just finished rereading the thread. As much as I disagree and dislike Bored's thought processes on RVS and whatnot, I don't feel he's scum. I am reading him as a player who knows his mafia but doesn't play the way SF usually does and picked up grief for it. That said, I don't like how he has not addressed anything unrelated to himself. Your thoughts on anything else happening in the game? Also, now that I'm not irritated with Invisible, I can say without being biased that I still don't like his reactions. Like I had stated earlier, I feel that he is making a big deal about not being bothered about votes on him. Before you come back and ask, "but what is the scum intent in this," let me ask you: what is the TOWN intent in this? What's the point of laughing off every vote on you, especially RVS votes, and just saying "we're not lynching me"? Pocket Ace voted you over that earlier in the game. And when I voted you because I didn't like you making a big deal of laughing at votes, you laughed in my face and rubbed it in my face how weak my case was. What was so fundamentally different about PA's reason for voting you and mine, that you reacted like this? Yes, my vote put you at three votes. But considering that Senbonzakura's vote on you was an RVS vote he had never come back to remove, the only serious votes on you at that point were Pocket Ace and me, before Moeblobs voted you.* It's not exactly my definition of opportunistic. I don't feel that you're scum hunting or doing anything to contribute. You're just defending yourself. Your vote is on me, but I don't even know why you're voting me. I'm probably wrong, but it feels like you're voting me mostly for not agreeing you with. If you say I'm "generalizing so much to the point of misrep", then why don't you clarify and tell me where. Your vote is on me, but you're not even driving a lynch on me or anything. In fact, it's just there. ##Vote: Invisible *Speaking of Moeblobs, I find it interesting how he blames the "wagon" on Invisible primarily on me, only making a minor note that he himself had jumped onto the same wagon. Yes, he had Invisible had some back-and-forth exchanges, but I feel that Moeblob backed off quite easily and instead says that he should focus more on me for ... I dunno, what? This reeks of something scummy. The other half of the game needs to get back in here and show that they care. Because this is ridiculous.

I don't recall saying that, ever. I had originally voted engima not because he was just inactive, but because I saw him reading the thread for significant periods of time and then went away without a word. If he had the time to be reading the thread for that long, then he had the time to pop in and say something. I found it telling that he just went away without a word. And now he's subbing out so this vote serves nothing. ##Unvote Need to reread.

Pocket Ace, you are misinterpreting my reason for unvoting Invisible. I didn't unvote him because he "played nice". I unvoted him because I was high on irritation and I wanted to come back with a clearer mind and then vote again. As for what about Bored's defense made me stop voting? As much as I didn't agree with his logic, he explained himself and I felt that we were arguing more over play style. And I didn't feel that keeping my vote on him was productive for the time being. Is there something so wrong with that? Senbonzakura, when did I ask for consolidated votes on on ED1? I wanted people to contribute. That is HARDLY asking for consolidated votes. Also, do you guys seriously believe that I'd make myself so visible if I were scum, that I'd be arguing so much and trying to make things happen? Bored wasn't even voting me after he came back, he voted Space Marine. If wanted to "blend in and vote park", don't you think I would have just pretended like I wasn't online and not said anything? It's not like I've been logging in anonymously or anything -- oh wait. My play has hardly been perfect, and I've admitted as such. But you guys need to think about whether there's scum intent behind my actions or not. No, I am not saying that you guys should let me slide if I am legitimately doing scummy things. But I feel that three votes (on top of one RVS vote that's been parked and the person has not been online once) and a lot of suspicion on me is hardly appropriate. ##Vote: enigma Hello, I saw you reading the thread yesterday. You were here. You were around for a considerable amount of time. You didn't post anything. This is not cool.

I AM GOING TO SLEEP AND NOT GOING TO THINK ABOUT THIS GAME UNTIL I AM OF RATIONAL MIND. WHICH MEANS THE VOTE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE UNTIL I WAKE UP.

You didn't say it explicitly. But the way you laughed at me definitely implied it. How can I KNOW with 100% certainty whether you're town or scum before you flip? I may think you're scummy, but that doesn't mean I absolutely know which way you'll flip. This is fair enough, and yes, I do expect you to argue against it if it's not true. It would have helped a lot more if you had explained your stance like this in your first post. I don't expect you to agree with me or what I may think, especially if it's not true or you feel differently. But the way you phrased yourself sounded more like you were just brushing me off and not explaining why you thought my case was weak. I mean, if I want someone lynched then I had better make a strong case against a person. But if you want a person to get their vote off you because you're not scum, then you best explain yourself well so that person is inclined to move their vote. I admitted my case on you was weak. What I wanted was a reaction more than anything else, a reason to keep my vote on you or move it. I don't have a problem with this. And that's all I really need. ##Unvote This last post was more satisfactory and what I wanted to hear in the first place, but a part of me is still hurt. And that side will more than likely cloud my judgement. I'm going to sleep and hopefully be of clearer mind to continue this tomorrow.

Ivisible, you are also ignoring what I say. (No, I will not correct the typo in your name.) You're saying that my points are weak, but you're not acknowledging anything I say or even trying to see it from my point of view. My thoughts, whether they be right or wrong, are don't work like yours. I voted you because I had a minor suspicion on you that I'd like sorted out sooner rather than later. You pretty much just laughed in my face and called my case weak. Are you even trying to understand my explanation for my thoughts? You don't have to agree with it, but your making a big deal over a minor thing is not making me feel any better about you.

Considering that about half the game hasn't even shown up outside of RVS, my reads are on the people who are actually present. You seem overly flippant of votes on you, and it catches my attention. It's a minor thing and a minor read, but ignoring it when it gets my attention isn't going to progress anything. It's one thing to not care too much about votes on you. What I do not like is the fact that you need to point it out (and not just once, but at least twice if I am not remembering wrong). It feels like you're making a big show about "see how I'm totally not scum because I'm not freaking out over votes and laughing them off". Saying "I'm town" doesn't mean anything. Only scum know who each other are. It serves no point and actually makes you look less town. Are you saying that if I find something suspicious then I should not point it out? I don't know if you're scum or if you're town. Maybe my "suspicion" is really stupid and means nothing. But I am not going to sit back and ignore it just because it might mean nothing because we don't get anywhere if we do that. Any amount of reaction, any reads I can get on anyone is good enough.

Also, enigma, I see you reading this thread. Are you just going to watch or say something?

I ended up leaving that part of his post out of mine, but yeah, I know all that and I acknowledge that. My simplification sucks, I just didn't want to repeat his entire point to make my point. Like I stated in my previous post, even if I can see his "logic", I don't agree with it and it still feels like a partial OMGUS (whether this is true or not).

I'm not everyone else, so I can't speak for them. My vote was more for your attitude: "Call me when you have something more interesting," which came off to me as you not wanting to participate. Also, I'm not getting your logic on why the "first two" votes were worse than the "later ones", even if it seemed like a "safe" vote at the time. According to logic, later votes on a wagon can also be a "safe vote" because that person already has votes on them started by another person and it's "not as much" their responsibility. Scum want to blend in, yes, but town shouldn't attract attention to themselves to the point where it lets the real scum blend in. Perhaps it was not your intent, but you did end up accumulating four or five votes. As much as I don't like your attitude or disagree with your logic, I do agree that your motivations don't sound like a scum one. (Also, please do not tell me to think "logically" when I feel the same can be said to you.) Don't think you are completely off the hook though. ##Unvote ##Vote: Invisible I still find it odd the way you need to show how "cool" you are with votes on you. Are you scum, trying to act overly town by not making a big deal over getting votes?

Fail was not one of the first two voters on him. Therefore, I acknowledged that Bored didn't think Fail was scum. Also, I know what he said. But I still feel that this is simplification on his part as well to say he thinks that Space Marine and I were voting him just to look like we were contributing. It was RVS, I didn't like what he had to say, and I voted. Sorry if you think I'm oversimplifying to the point of misrepresentation, but it felt like an OMGUS, as much as I hate that word.

What I felt was intentionally scummy was his popping into the thread to sorta respond to Invisible and say "call me when interesting things happen", not do anything else, then wait to see how people respond to him. Like he's drawing attention to himself to see how people react to it. Aside from Bored, I am not quite liking Invisible right now. He seems to be making a big deal out of acting as if he's not bothered by votes on him.

Uh, yeah, this comes off to me as being "intentionally scummy".

I feel that he's ignoring why people are voting him and just simplifying it to "people voting me are scum". Also, I don't like that he said, "I think the first two people voting me are scum for something that's not scummy" because by his own admission we can't ALL be scum voting him, and feels like he is just throwing around accusations.